Burgers: to knead or not to knead? + Lamb-y burgs ...

[hinduclient]

We're grilling these days - it's too darn hot to cook inside. So we made beef (80/20% fat) burgers. No additives, just salt and pepper on the patties. My partner insisted that kneading the burgers was bad. OK. But as the charcoal griller-in-chief they kind of fell apart. A guest commented that kneading the ground meat is important to making cohesive burgs. Thoughts?

Tomorrow we're doing burgs again - but using ground lamb instead of beef. Thinking of tzatziki and other toppings to go for more of a middle eastern flavor profile. Topping suggestions? Additions to the lamb before grilling?

 

[ecotone]

Crack an egg in there and the meat will hold together. For a lamburger, I'd put some chopped mint, crumbled feta, and bread crumbs in the patties, too. Tzatziki, tomatoes, and greens would make a great topping.

 

[papadage]

I would add cumin and oregano to lamb burgers and salt them well outside. Mint in the tzatziki. Add a touch of olive oil to the meat to help it stick together.

If you want to make it more like a bifteki, add the egg, a little soaked bread, some minced onion, and more mint in the meat and knead it some, but not overly so. A bit of seltzer water or some grated zucchini will keep it moist without adding flavor.

Personally, I like feta on the side, sliced and drizzled with olive oil, and sprinkled with oregano. And some Kalamata olives, of course.

This is a good baseline recipe for the meat itself.

https://www.themediterraneandish.com/lamb-burgers/

 

[Tom Foolery]

Tossing an egg in definitely helps internal cohesion, I usually do one per pound of ground beef. And I always kneed, even if I am not using an egg. It's the only way to get the spices consistent across all of the burgers. Also, I do garlic granules instead of pepper, because vampires.

 

[Starbuck79]

My partner insisted that kneading the burgers was bad.

My guess is that they heard that somewhere but couldn't tell the difference. Much like the flip or not to flip debate.

I find chilling the burgers also helps keep them together. Looser burgers work best on a flat top grittle where they won't fall apart. With grates you want them to hold stronger.

 

[Tom Foolery]

And I know this is blasphemy, but I keep two or three packs of pre-formed burgers on-hand for those days when I just want to throw something on the grill and am not super particular. Usually on Friday nights, after work, just throw some burgers and dogs on the grill, drink a beer, and decompress from the work week. The Costco sirloin burgers or organic burgers are good for this.

 

[papadage]

I use the Whole Foods patties all the time. The ones at the butcher counter with the stuff mixed in them. My favorites are the sweet onion and the cowboy brugers.

 

[Starbuck79]

I use the Whole Foods patties all the time. The ones at the butcher counter with the stuff mixed in them. My favorites are the sweet onion and the cowboy brugers.

This is the way. Even my local Tom Thumb and Kroger Grocery Meat counters has pre made specialty burgers.

 

[yd]

Crack an egg in there and the meat will hold together. For a lamburger, I'd put some chopped mint, crumbled feta, and bread crumbs in the patties, too. Tzatziki, tomatoes, and greens would make a great topping.

Crack an egg, spot on advice. Feta, well, if you like 'shoe' taste sure do that as well.

 

[Deleted member 174040]

J Kenji Lopez-Alt:

There are structural issues as well. For thicker grilled burgers, I typically prefer beef that’s ground fresh and handled as minimally as possible in order to keep its texture light and tender. (Small air pockets in a loosely packed patty also act as insulators, keeping the burger’s interior a shade pinker as the exterior browns.) Try this with thin patties, though, and even those that survive the initial transfer to the grill will crumble when you try to flip them, falling through the grates like a smoky, fiery game of Kerplunk.

Solving this structural problem is straightforward. In many ways, ground meat resembles bread dough. Both of them get their structure through a matrix of interconnected proteins — animal protein in the case of ground meat, gluten in the case of dough — and rely on that structure to ensnare water, minerals, aromatic molecules and fat. We all know that the more bread dough is kneaded, the more robust this structure becomes. The same is true for ground beef.

Kneading the ground beef in a bowl will cause proteins to become entangled with one another: That’s bad news for big, fat burgers, but necessary for thinner burgers.

Be sure to look at the pictures though.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/19/dini ... ecipe.html

 

[bluloo]

I started kneading burger meat more thoroughly recently, and it’s made a big difference. The overall taste and texture is much improved.

Been using Trader Joe’s mushroom powder as seasoning for a delicious umami flavor, and topping with spicy chili crunch.
It’s my new food crush.

I also make sure the burger is very cold (freezer for 15+ min) and the surface is dry to ensure a good crust with the interior still medium - medium rare.

 

[Thorvard]

J Kenji Lopez-Alt:

There are structural issues as well. For thicker grilled burgers, I typically prefer beef that’s ground fresh and handled as minimally as possible in order to keep its texture light and tender. (Small air pockets in a loosely packed patty also act as insulators, keeping the burger’s interior a shade pinker as the exterior browns.) Try this with thin patties, though, and even those that survive the initial transfer to the grill will crumble when you try to flip them, falling through the grates like a smoky, fiery game of Kerplunk.

Solving this structural problem is straightforward. In many ways, ground meat resembles bread dough. Both of them get their structure through a matrix of interconnected proteins — animal protein in the case of ground meat, gluten in the case of dough — and rely on that structure to ensnare water, minerals, aromatic molecules and fat. We all know that the more bread dough is kneaded, the more robust this structure becomes. The same is true for ground beef.

Kneading the ground beef in a bowl will cause proteins to become entangled with one another: That’s bad news for big, fat burgers, but necessary for thinner burgers.

Be sure to look at the pictures though.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/19/dini ... ecipe.html

https://www.seriouseats.com/the-burger- ... er-burgers

Here's a free link if you don't have NYT.

For the most tender burgers, grind your meat fresh, and form your patties as tenderly as possible. For griddled patties with superior nooks and crannies for cheese-catching, I sometimes like to grind my meat directly onto a sheet tray and gently coax it into patties, without ever picking it up until just before I cook it. Superb.

When I make thick burgers I do it this way and I've never had a issue or complaint. It's just a fantastic burger.

I will say, most of the burgers we make now are smashed burgers. Faster, I like the crispy bits and the family prefers them.

 

[Jehos]

I always knead to mix in the spices, and I never add anything but meat and spices.

Mostly we use bison for burgers, with salt/pepper/garlic mixed in. A chunk of hickory goes on the grill with the charcoal. Cooking is always indirect (half a chimney into a single Weber charcoal basket opposite the kettle lid vent). Flip once, add a nice sharp cheddar, and be sure to toast the brioche buns. Add arugula and spicy mustard, serve with chips.

 

[ecotone]

Crack an egg in there and the meat will hold together. For a lamburger, I'd put some chopped mint, crumbled feta, and bread crumbs in the patties, too. Tzatziki, tomatoes, and greens would make a great topping.

Crack an egg, spot on advice. Feta, well, if you like 'shoe' taste sure do that as well.

Mmmmm shoe taste.

 

[rain shadow]

One thing I always wanted to try was making a toroidal patty and serving it on a bagel. I'd have to experiment with the cheese and toppings to get something that goes with both the burger and the bagel flavor.

 

[papadage]

Top with a hue slice of tomato with a hole cut in the middle, arugula, and capers. Mustard on the bottom. Torn between blue or pepper jack cheese.

 

[rain shadow]

Top with a hue slice of tomato with a hole cut in the middle, arugula, and capers. Mustard on the bottom. Torn between blue or pepper jack cheese.

That sounds pretty good. I was leaning towards swiss or gouda.

 

[Semi On]

I do not knead my burgers. I make a ball, flatten it, then press my thumb in the middle to make a small dimple. Salt, pepper and a little olive oil. If your burgers are falling apart on the grill, you might try greasing your grates or the meat. Also, the motion for getting a patty off the grill should be very fast with a turner that comes to a thin point.

 

[Deleted member 174040]

J Kenji Lopez-Alt:

There are structural issues as well. For thicker grilled burgers, I typically prefer beef that’s ground fresh and handled as minimally as possible in order to keep its texture light and tender. (Small air pockets in a loosely packed patty also act as insulators, keeping the burger’s interior a shade pinker as the exterior browns.) Try this with thin patties, though, and even those that survive the initial transfer to the grill will crumble when you try to flip them, falling through the grates like a smoky, fiery game of Kerplunk.

Solving this structural problem is straightforward. In many ways, ground meat resembles bread dough. Both of them get their structure through a matrix of interconnected proteins — animal protein in the case of ground meat, gluten in the case of dough — and rely on that structure to ensnare water, minerals, aromatic molecules and fat. We all know that the more bread dough is kneaded, the more robust this structure becomes. The same is true for ground beef.

Kneading the ground beef in a bowl will cause proteins to become entangled with one another: That’s bad news for big, fat burgers, but necessary for thinner burgers.

Be sure to look at the pictures though.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/19/dini ... ecipe.html

https://www.seriouseats.com/the-burger- ... er-burgers

Here's a free link if you don't have NYT.

For the most tender burgers, grind your meat fresh, and form your patties as tenderly as possible. For griddled patties with superior nooks and crannies for cheese-catching, I sometimes like to grind my meat directly onto a sheet tray and gently coax it into patties, without ever picking it up until just before I cook it. Superb.

When I make thick burgers I do it this way and I've never had a issue or complaint. It's just a fantastic burger.

I will say, most of the burgers we make now are smashed burgers. Faster, I like the crispy bits and the family prefers them.

No. That article you're quoting is completely different and he makes the case for breaking from that advice.

Really, unless you've read 10 articles already this month the NYT will be open to you. And if you have, use a different browser or use incognito mode.

 

[rain shadow]

you might try greasing your grates

Going to an extreme, maybe swapping cast iron out in favor of porcelain grates.

 

[Deleted member 174040]

Crack an egg in there and the meat will hold together. For a lamburger, I'd put some chopped mint, crumbled feta, and bread crumbs in the patties, too. Tzatziki, tomatoes, and greens would make a great topping.

Crack an egg, spot on advice. Feta, well, if you like 'shoe' taste sure do that as well.

Mmmmm shoe taste.

Good feta is great. Just like good blue cheese.

And good coffee. And...

 

[papadage]

you might try greasing your grates

Going to an extreme, maybe swapping cast iron out in favor of porcelain grates.

You don't need to do that. Just heat them up ripping hot, make sure they are clean, and swap with a towel dipped in neutral oil. Let the oil blacken to refresh the seasoning on the grates.

 

[Deleted member 174040]

you might try greasing your grates

Going to an extreme, maybe swapping cast iron out in favor of porcelain grates.

You don't need to do that. Just heat them up ripping hot, make sure they are clean, and swap with a towel dipped in neutral oil.

So, cook the burger on sodden paper towel? Does it carry enough heat?

Sounds dubious, got a video??

 

[swiftdraw]

Oranging for tips and ideas

 

[Thorvard]

No. That article you're quoting is completely different and he makes the case for breaking from that advice.

oops, totally my bad then. I still follow his original method and have been happy. *shrug*


I rarely use NYT but it won't open for me or in incognito. I have to admit.. I do wonder what his method is since it says thin and juicy like a smashburger but with grill char.

[edit] Clearly I'm a idiot because in your quote it says thick burgers shouldn't be kneaded(unless the main article ignores that) but thin need it. His serious eats article says not to knead for thick burgers? I"m obviously missing something

 

[Vastamious]

I don't kneed. Break the meat up when your taking it out of the package in a bowl and sprinkle the seasoning as you go, then make balls (to ensure uniform size) then smash them down to make teh baby I mean meat baby burger patty.

 

[wireframed]

So, the reasoning I heard, from a butcher, is the meat comes out of the grinder with fibers aligned perfectly, and that’s how it’s packaged.

By kneading it, you are basically ensuring the muscle fibers are criss-crossed which makes the meat more chewy since you generally don’t want that.

Honestly it doesn’t seem to make a HUGE difference to me, but it’s actually easier to not have to knead the meat, and just shape it gently into a patty instead. So guess which method I prefer.

Worst case, it might not make a big difference so I go for speed and ease-of-use.

 

[papadage]

you might try greasing your grates

Going to an extreme, maybe swapping cast iron out in favor of porcelain grates.

You don't need to do that. Just heat them up ripping hot, make sure they are clean, and swap with a towel dipped in neutral oil.

So, cook the burger on sodden paper towel? Does it carry enough heat?

Sounds dubious, got a video??

Fucking auto-correct.

Swab.. swab the grates with a rolled up paper towel dipped in a bit of neutral oil. It blackens immediately and refreshes the seasoning on the grates.

 

[bluloo]

So, the reasoning I heard, from a butcher, is the meat comes out of the grinder with fibers aligned perfectly, and that’s how it’s packaged.

By kneading it, you are basically ensuring the muscle fibers are criss-crossed which makes the meat more chewy since you generally don’t want that.

...

FYI, this is rather nonsensical.
Grind the meat, and the framework of muscle fiber that might have made the meat tough, is no more. No amount of kneading is going to put Humpty Dumpty back together again, criss-crossed or otherwise.

Not directed at you, rather at the butcher’s comment.

 

[Deleted member 174040]

No. That article you're quoting is completely different and he makes the case for breaking from that advice.

oops, totally my bad then. I still follow his original method and have been happy. *shrug*


I rarely use NYT but it won't open for me or in incognito.

Anyway, here’s a video he made of him preparing the recipe (and please don’t tell me your device only works with Vimeo ):

https://youtu.be/yUG9ZXhJEbg

 

[sword_9mm]

And I know this is blasphemy, but I keep two or three packs of pre-formed burgers on-hand for those days when I just want to throw something on the grill and am not super particular. Usually on Friday nights, after work, just throw some burgers and dogs on the grill, drink a beer, and decompress from the work week. The Costco sirloin burgers or organic burgers are good for this.

We use pre-made patties more than not anymore. Luckily there's 2 local brands (Beef/Bison) that are good so no need to make from scratch imo. I'm lazy though.

 

[Tom Foolery]

And I know this is blasphemy, but I keep two or three packs of pre-formed burgers on-hand for those days when I just want to throw something on the grill and am not super particular. Usually on Friday nights, after work, just throw some burgers and dogs on the grill, drink a beer, and decompress from the work week. The Costco sirloin burgers or organic burgers are good for this.

We use pre-made patties more than not anymore. Luckily there's 2 local brands (Beef/Bison) that are good so no need to make from scratch imo. I'm lazy though.

Made Costco sirloin burgers just last night, because our Sunday chores shenanigans ran us late. Delicious.

And by "ran us late," I mean that I have acquired a condition in my advanced years, in which if I eat less than 4 hours before I go to bed, I sleep poorly and suffer from reflux. So I shoot for not eating past 5, and then rarely eat later than 6:30.

 

[Jehos]

So, the reasoning I heard, from a butcher, is the meat comes out of the grinder with fibers aligned perfectly, and that’s how it’s packaged.

By kneading it, you are basically ensuring the muscle fibers are criss-crossed which makes the meat more chewy since you generally don’t want that.

...

FYI, this is rather nonsensical.
Grind the meat, and the framework of muscle fiber that might have made the meat tough, is no more. No amount of kneading is going to put Humpty Dumpty back together again, criss-crossed or otherwise.

Not directed at you, rather at the butcher’s comment.

Second. That's right up there with nonsense like "sealing in juices".

If the meat had actual "fibers" big enough to do that, you'd see them like when a piece of beef is whole.

 

[sword_9mm]

And I know this is blasphemy, but I keep two or three packs of pre-formed burgers on-hand for those days when I just want to throw something on the grill and am not super particular. Usually on Friday nights, after work, just throw some burgers and dogs on the grill, drink a beer, and decompress from the work week. The Costco sirloin burgers or organic burgers are good for this.

We use pre-made patties more than not anymore. Luckily there's 2 local brands (Beef/Bison) that are good so no need to make from scratch imo. I'm lazy though.

Made Costco sirloin burgers just last night, because our Sunday chores shenanigans ran us late. Delicious.

And by "ran us late," I mean that I have acquired a condition in my advanced years, in which if I eat less than 4 hours before I go to bed, I sleep poorly and suffer from reflux. So I shoot for not eating past 5, and then rarely eat later than 6:30.

I wish my wife could get on a decent dinner schedule.

Lucky to eat before 8pm most nights and I usually hit the hay around 11. I'd prefer 7 or earlier but good luck with that ever. One of those people who would be happier if the day started at noon and bedtime was 3am.

 

[Bravehamster]

Grind the meat, and the framework of muscle fiber that might have made the meat tough, is no more. No amount of kneading is going to put Humpty Dumpty back together again, criss-crossed or otherwise.

That's not entirely true. If you both salt and knead the salt will denature some of the proteins and allow them to cross-link. I used to do this and couldn't understand why my burgers always shrunk into rubber balls when cooking.

You can season and gently form, or knead and then season right before cooking. They'll have different textures but both methods can create a tasty juicy burger.

 

[Tom Foolery]

And I know this is blasphemy, but I keep two or three packs of pre-formed burgers on-hand for those days when I just want to throw something on the grill and am not super particular. Usually on Friday nights, after work, just throw some burgers and dogs on the grill, drink a beer, and decompress from the work week. The Costco sirloin burgers or organic burgers are good for this.

We use pre-made patties more than not anymore. Luckily there's 2 local brands (Beef/Bison) that are good so no need to make from scratch imo. I'm lazy though.

Made Costco sirloin burgers just last night, because our Sunday chores shenanigans ran us late. Delicious.

And by "ran us late," I mean that I have acquired a condition in my advanced years, in which if I eat less than 4 hours before I go to bed, I sleep poorly and suffer from reflux. So I shoot for not eating past 5, and then rarely eat later than 6:30.

I wish my wife could get on a decent dinner schedule.

Lucky to eat before 8pm most nights and I usually hit the hay around 11. I'd prefer 7 or earlier but good luck with that ever. One of those people who would be happier if the day started at noon and bedtime was 3am.

I work in Eastern Time but live in Mountain, so it is pretty trivial for me to get off work at 3pm my time, stroll into the kitchen, throw together dinner, and have it ready by 5pm. Of course, this means that I have to be up at about 5am, which means I get tired and am ready to rack out by 10pm. If I eat at 8pm, I am not going to be sleeping well that night, to the point where it is better if I just skip dinner. I will sleep better fasted than if I ate a couple of hours before bed.

 

[bluloo]

Grind the meat, and the framework of muscle fiber that might have made the meat tough, is no more. No amount of kneading is going to put Humpty Dumpty back together again, criss-crossed or otherwise.

That's not entirely true. If you both salt and knead the salt will denature some of the proteins and allow them to cross-link. I used to do this and couldn't understand why my burgers always shrunk into rubber balls when cooking.

You can season and gently form, or knead and then season right before cooking. They'll have different textures but both methods can create a tasty juicy burger.

The comment was about mechanically "criss-crossing muscle fibers", via kneading, and making the meat tougher, vs leaving the fibers "aligning", as it's packaged.
Chemically cross-linking proteins is another animal.

 

[Mojo-jojo]

I hate overly thick burgers, and if I'm making them myself I pretty much only make smashburgers in a stainless steel pan. I only 'knead' them enough to form them into cohesive balls, and that would be an acceptable range of working the meat if I was going to make a thicker burger as well, maybe a bit more if you're mixing in egg or other seasoning and binding.

Attempting to grill them by taking the meat like...directly from the package and grilling meat is folly. Might as well be making ground beef taco meat at that point, that is not the form of a burger.

 

[JimJimmery]

I always view mixing binders and spices in the meat as meatloaf. If I want a meatloaf sandwich, I'll make meatloaf. If grilling, I just roll into a ball, flatten into a patty, and indent the center because Bobby Flay told me to. Coarse salt, pepper, maybe some garlic powder. Ordering a Blackstone griddle because one of my neighbors had us over and made smash burgers that were perfect and another made steak and the best scallops I've ever had. Never knew I needed a big griddle in my life, but here we are.

 

[sword_9mm]

I'd probably rather have a meatloaf sandwich over a burger 8 out of 10 times.