Android Q Beta 4 is out, brings finalized APIs

With final APIs, the Play Store is now accepting Android Q apps.

Read the whole story

 

[dantesan]

System Wide Dark Mode is coming in Q though right? That's not user-facing?

 

[killerhurtalot]

So once again, nothing major and mostly under the hood and icon changes...

The gesture system was crap and still is crap compared to the old digital home/menu/back button even if it's digital.

The biggest change in permission is allowing them to limit use while the app is active or in the background.

Google needs to curate their damn store and default permissions instead of trying to solve things with additional features... or at least push out Project treble. Until then, I don't see them pushing out anything worthwhile.

 

[a5ehren]

So once again, nothing major and mostly under the hood and icon changes...

The gesture system was crap and still is crap compared to the old digital home/menu/back button even if it's digital.

The biggest change in permission is allowing them to limit use while the app is active or in the background.

Google needs to curate their damn store and default permissions instead of trying to solve things with additional features... or at least push out Project treble. Until then, I don't see them pushing out anything worthwhile.

Treble requires BSP support. It isn't going to be added to any phone that doesn't already have it, but every new phone is required to support it to get the Play Store.

 

[courageousrobot]

System Wide Dark Mode is coming in Q though right? That's not user-facing?

It is, but it's not a new feature for this release (DP4) - it's been live in this beta for a while!

 

[lewax00]

System Wide Dark Mode is coming in Q though right? That's not user-facing?

I assume it is, but apps still need to detect it and switch if they want to support it properly. It's not as easy as just globally swapping some colors around, unfortunately, if you still want a visually appealing application.

 

[TechW]

"... and third-party devices should get the update whenever their manufacturer gets around to it."

For some reason I love this comment...

 

[co-lee]

So once again, nothing major and mostly under the hood and icon changes...

The gesture system was crap and still is crap compared to the old digital home/menu/back button even if it's digital.

The biggest change in permission is allowing them to limit use while the app is active or in the background.

Google needs to curate their damn store and default permissions instead of trying to solve things with additional features... or at least push out Project treble. Until then, I don't see them pushing out anything worthwhile.

Treble requires BSP support. It isn't going to be added to any phone that doesn't already have it, but every new phone is required to support it to get the Play Store.

yeah, but that's all fact based. And doesn't support my whine-narrative. So, I'm gonna ignore it and just bitch ....

/s as needed.

 

[A.Felix]

So once again, nothing major and mostly under the hood and icon changes...

The gesture system was crap and still is crap compared to the old digital home/menu/back button even if it's digital.

The biggest change in permission is allowing them to limit use while the app is active or in the background.

Google needs to curate their damn store and default permissions instead of trying to solve things with additional features... or at least push out Project treble. Until then, I don't see them pushing out anything worthwhile.

Android Q has a native Desktop mode. I think that's pretty significant. If that makes it to the final build it would mean that every Android device out there with Q will have the ability to truly become the only computing device needed for many people. While we have referred to phones, accurately, as pocket computers, they have been lacking in their ability to substitute a real computer aside from a couple proprietary implementations. These days smartphone hardware, even at the midrange, is powerful enough to satisfy most people computing needs, including work related, or studying. You could go through your entire university program or run a whole small business with just a phone and a few cheap peripherals.

For the first time this could open up real single device computing possibilities across the developing world without much of a compromise. Instead of buying a low end phone and a low end desktop or laptop for work, you could get a mid to high end phone and only use that with a dock. You could do personal, work, and even play on it. Real play, like 3D games with good visuals kind of play. I'm not sure one can so easily dismiss the opportunities this opens for millions of people around the world just saying it's "nothing major and mostly under the hood and icon changes". A native Android desktop experience available to every phone is most definitely a major change with potentially huge impact. Well, at least IMHO.

 

[barich]

...at least one, Essential, is releasing Beta 4 today along with Google

Essential is a tiny company that seems practically out of business and they regularly have updates out the same day as Google. Now this extends to beta releases, too.

Granted, their build is basically AOSP, and they only have one phone to support, but that's still impressive. What's everyone else's excuse?

 

[Adreaver]

...at least one, Essential, is releasing Beta 4 today along with Google

Essential is a tiny company that seems practically out of business and they regularly have updates out the same day as Google. Now this extends to beta releases, too.

Granted, their build is basically AOSP, and they only have one phone to support, but that's still impressive. What's everyone else's excuse?

They don't have one, they openly espouse planned obsolescence as a part of their business models.

 

[vulpes vulpes]

Really looking forward to 'we removed the buttons and fucked storage access' as an update.

 

[TakeItOrLeaveIt]

...at least one, Essential, is releasing Beta 4 today along with Google

Essential is a tiny company that seems practically out of business and they regularly have updates out the same day as Google. Now this extends to beta releases, too.

Granted, their build is basically AOSP, and they only have one phone to support, but that's still impressive. What's everyone else's excuse?

They don't have one, they openly espouse planned obsolescence as a part of their business models.

The fact that Essential is "practically out of business" may indicate that real-world business models like planned obsolescence have some wisdom in them. Essential's support will be non-existent when they fold.

A company charging the kind of prices necessary to fund terrific ongoing support and counter the loss of new sales that such support guarantees will likely join Essential's fate. People like the concept but few are willing to pay the cost.

 

[solomonrex]

...at least one, Essential, is releasing Beta 4 today along with Google

Essential is a tiny company that seems practically out of business and they regularly have updates out the same day as Google. Now this extends to beta releases, too.

Granted, their build is basically AOSP, and they only have one phone to support, but that's still impressive. What's everyone else's excuse?

They don't have one, they openly espouse planned obsolescence as a part of their business models.

The fact that Essential is "practically out of business" may indicate that real-world business models like planned obsolescence have some wisdom in them. Essential's support will be non-existent when they fold.

A company charging the kind of prices necessary to fund terrific ongoing support and counter the loss of new sales that such support guarantees will likely join Essential's fate. People like the concept but few are willing to pay the cost.

Lots of companies went out of business with terrible update policies, too. The two biggest sellers, Apple and Samsung, update their phones, even if Samsung is far from perfect.

 

[killerhurtalot]

So once again, nothing major and mostly under the hood and icon changes...

The gesture system was crap and still is crap compared to the old digital home/menu/back button even if it's digital.

The biggest change in permission is allowing them to limit use while the app is active or in the background.

Google needs to curate their damn store and default permissions instead of trying to solve things with additional features... or at least push out Project treble. Until then, I don't see them pushing out anything worthwhile.

Android Q has a native Desktop mode. I think that's pretty significant. If that makes it to the final build it would mean that every Android device out there with Q will have the ability to truly become the only computing device needed for many people. While we have referred to phones, accurately, as pocket computers, they have been lacking in their ability to substitute a real computer aside from a couple proprietary implementations. These days smartphone hardware, even at the midrange, is powerful enough to satisfy most people computing needs, including work related, or studying. You could go through your entire university program or run a whole small business with just a phone and a few cheap peripherals.

For the first time this could open up real single device computing possibilities across the developing world without much of a compromise. Instead of buying a low end phone and a low end desktop or laptop for work, you could get a mid to high end phone and only use that with a dock. You could do personal, work, and even play on it. Real play, like 3D games with good visuals kind of play. I'm not sure one can so easily dismiss the opportunities this opens for millions of people around the world just saying it's "nothing major and mostly under the hood and icon changes". A native Android desktop experience available to every phone is most definitely a major change with potentially huge impact. Well, at least IMHO.

I mean, desktop mode has been a feature in samsungs smartphones for a while now. Google has shown that they cant implement features any better than Samsung for the past 3 years, (multi tasking apps, pip, and etc) so I'm not sure why anyone would expect it to work better than Samsung Dex. And the experience on Samsung dex is mediocre at best even on the latest hardware.

Desktop mode on smartphones right now is slightly better than netbooks back in the 2000s on top end hardware, middle tier hardware would struggle at it especially with how little ram they usually have.

 

[usamaahmad]

System Wide Dark Mode is coming in Q though right? That's not user-facing?

Nothing new as in since Beta 3 I think, Dark More was present in the last beta.

 

[MechR]

Among other things:

• The contextual screen-rotate button is back
• You can swipe in either direction to dismiss notifications again

 

[vulpes vulpes]

Among other things:

• The contextual screen-rotate button is back
• You can swipe in either direction to dismiss notifications again

Bringing back actual rotation control would be better.

 

[earlyberd]

Android Q has a native Desktop mode. I think that's pretty significant.

I think you're over-confident in that feature.

The sort of person that would use a phone for their primary computer has no need for a desktop mode. App makers have spent countless hours researching and developing phone UIs to handle touch input, and as a result fewer kids are growing up using a keyboard and mouse.

Input device designers have known for ages that user preferences are mostly based on what devices the users grew up using. That's why the DVORAK keyboard layout never took off as a replacement for QWERTY, too many users were used to QWERTY from the typewriter days, and the speed benefits of DVORAK couldn't be realized without investing a ton of practice.

The same scenario will play out with touch UI versus desktop UI. Android Q's inclusion of a desktop UI might be a neat feature, but it's not going to provide any speed or usability benefits to users that grew up on touchscreens. And app makers will continue to research and develop new ways to interact with touchscreen devices, whereas desktop UIs are likely to see development slow or cease entirely as touchscreen users become the norm.

Touch typing is not even a firm job requirement anymore to be able to work in technology. Some jobs you spend all day working inside of mobile apps, never once sitting at a desk.

 

[A.Felix]

So once again, nothing major and mostly under the hood and icon changes...

The gesture system was crap and still is crap compared to the old digital home/menu/back button even if it's digital.

The biggest change in permission is allowing them to limit use while the app is active or in the background.

Google needs to curate their damn store and default permissions instead of trying to solve things with additional features... or at least push out Project treble. Until then, I don't see them pushing out anything worthwhile.

Android Q has a native Desktop mode. I think that's pretty significant. If that makes it to the final build it would mean that every Android device out there with Q will have the ability to truly become the only computing device needed for many people. While we have referred to phones, accurately, as pocket computers, they have been lacking in their ability to substitute a real computer aside from a couple proprietary implementations. These days smartphone hardware, even at the midrange, is powerful enough to satisfy most people computing needs, including work related, or studying. You could go through your entire university program or run a whole small business with just a phone and a few cheap peripherals.

For the first time this could open up real single device computing possibilities across the developing world without much of a compromise. Instead of buying a low end phone and a low end desktop or laptop for work, you could get a mid to high end phone and only use that with a dock. You could do personal, work, and even play on it. Real play, like 3D games with good visuals kind of play. I'm not sure one can so easily dismiss the opportunities this opens for millions of people around the world just saying it's "nothing major and mostly under the hood and icon changes". A native Android desktop experience available to every phone is most definitely a major change with potentially huge impact. Well, at least IMHO.

I mean, desktop mode has been a feature in samsungs smartphones for a while now. Google has shown that they cant implement features any better than Samsung for the past 3 years, (multi tasking apps, pip, and etc) so I'm not sure why anyone would expect it to work better than Samsung Dex. And the experience on Samsung dex is mediocre at best even on the latest hardware.

Desktop mode on smartphones right now is slightly better than netbooks back in the 2000s on top end hardware, middle tier hardware would struggle at it especially with how little ram they usually have.

Samsung is a proprietary solution that requires an expensive dock and an expensive phone as it only works with two models, the Galaxy S and the Note, which are the flagship phones they make. It also doesn't have native support, they pretty much bolted it on top of the existing framework. The reason this matters is because when you have native support you don't need to work for one device or another (Xiaomi also has their own desktop mode). When you have native support it means it works for everyone and there's a standard and official support for both manufacturers and developers, as well as a consistent experience for users.

Samsung doesn't have the power to provide the underlying framework for Android apps to work properly in their desktop mode. They just try the best they can. Google, however, has what it takes to address the whole stack. Google I/O had a presentation on how Activities and lifecycles are handled for proper multi display support, as well as the ability to drag and drop stuff across apps. Even if you needed a custom launcher to provide proper desktop support, at least you have the APIs and other things you need to do a proper implementation. This is like knocking off a thunderbolt dock station saying Dell offered docking through their proprietary port going to proprietary docks and it sucked. Yeah, having a standard supported across the full software and hardware stack is much better than bolting on a proprietary software implementation that only works with a proprietary hardware dock. An Android standard is a much bigger impact than a Samsung feature. Not dissing on Samsung, they tried and I've seen people successfully using that feature, but putting it in official Android is a game changer.

 

[qazwart]

Sounds great! Now should I use all those lovely new APIs if the vast majority of Android users aren’t going to upgrade to this release?

1/2 the user base is still hasn’t upgraded beyond Marshmallow.

 

[stormbeta]

Not looking forward to Q - none of the minor new features are worth gutting the storage system. Sure, improved security for the file system would be great, except the implementation is horrible and they're going to force everyone to use it even though is a huge step backwards, just like they did with Pie's half-baked gestures and Assistant's feature set at launch being gutted compared to Google Now, or dropping Inbox even though it still has tons of features Gmail doesn't.

Desktop mode is worthless if they cripple the filesystem first too.

If iOS wasn't such a massive pain in the ass to use I'd have switched a long time ago, though at the rate Google's going they're going to wind up making Android just as hard to use as iOS.

 

[Chemical Tribe]

So once again, nothing major and mostly under the hood and icon changes...

The gesture system was crap and still is crap compared to the old digital home/menu/back button even if it's digital.

The biggest change in permission is allowing them to limit use while the app is active or in the background.

Google needs to curate their damn store and default permissions instead of trying to solve things with additional features... or at least push out Project treble. Until then, I don't see them pushing out anything worthwhile.

Android Q has a native Desktop mode. I think that's pretty significant. If that makes it to the final build it would mean that every Android device out there with Q will have the ability to truly become the only computing device needed for many people. While we have referred to phones, accurately, as pocket computers, they have been lacking in their ability to substitute a real computer aside from a couple proprietary implementations. These days smartphone hardware, even at the midrange, is powerful enough to satisfy most people computing needs, including work related, or studying. You could go through your entire university program or run a whole small business with just a phone and a few cheap peripherals.

For the first time this could open up real single device computing possibilities across the developing world without much of a compromise. Instead of buying a low end phone and a low end desktop or laptop for work, you could get a mid to high end phone and only use that with a dock. You could do personal, work, and even play on it. Real play, like 3D games with good visuals kind of play. I'm not sure one can so easily dismiss the opportunities this opens for millions of people around the world just saying it's "nothing major and mostly under the hood and icon changes". A native Android desktop experience available to every phone is most definitely a major change with potentially huge impact. Well, at least IMHO.

"We can't have that, I want chromeos to dominate."

Former Mr. Chrome os head Pichai.

 

[Chemical Tribe]

...at least one, Essential, is releasing Beta 4 today along with Google

Essential is a tiny company that seems practically out of business and they regularly have updates out the same day as Google. Now this extends to beta releases, too.

Granted, their build is basically AOSP, and they only have one phone to support, but that's still impressive. What's everyone else's excuse?

They don't have one, they openly espouse planned obsolescence as a part of their business models.

The fact that Essential is "practically out of business" may indicate that real-world business models like planned obsolescence have some wisdom in them. Essential's support will be non-existent when they fold.

A company charging the kind of prices necessary to fund terrific ongoing support and counter the loss of new sales that such support guarantees will likely join Essential's fate. People like the concept but few are willing to pay the cost.

Essential is out of business because releasing a phone with polish from years ago won't cut it, esp for what they asked for when it first came out.

 

[eric102]

Downloaded it on a backup phone. Basically looks like Android 9.1..

Plus what dessert begins with Q?

 

[killerhurtalot]

So once again, nothing major and mostly under the hood and icon changes...

The gesture system was crap and still is crap compared to the old digital home/menu/back button even if it's digital.

The biggest change in permission is allowing them to limit use while the app is active or in the background.

Google needs to curate their damn store and default permissions instead of trying to solve things with additional features... or at least push out Project treble. Until then, I don't see them pushing out anything worthwhile.

Android Q has a native Desktop mode. I think that's pretty significant. If that makes it to the final build it would mean that every Android device out there with Q will have the ability to truly become the only computing device needed for many people. While we have referred to phones, accurately, as pocket computers, they have been lacking in their ability to substitute a real computer aside from a couple proprietary implementations. These days smartphone hardware, even at the midrange, is powerful enough to satisfy most people computing needs, including work related, or studying. You could go through your entire university program or run a whole small business with just a phone and a few cheap peripherals.

For the first time this could open up real single device computing possibilities across the developing world without much of a compromise. Instead of buying a low end phone and a low end desktop or laptop for work, you could get a mid to high end phone and only use that with a dock. You could do personal, work, and even play on it. Real play, like 3D games with good visuals kind of play. I'm not sure one can so easily dismiss the opportunities this opens for millions of people around the world just saying it's "nothing major and mostly under the hood and icon changes". A native Android desktop experience available to every phone is most definitely a major change with potentially huge impact. Well, at least IMHO.

I mean, desktop mode has been a feature in samsungs smartphones for a while now. Google has shown that they cant implement features any better than Samsung for the past 3 years, (multi tasking apps, pip, and etc) so I'm not sure why anyone would expect it to work better than Samsung Dex. And the experience on Samsung dex is mediocre at best even on the latest hardware.

Desktop mode on smartphones right now is slightly better than netbooks back in the 2000s on top end hardware, middle tier hardware would struggle at it especially with how little ram they usually have.

Samsung is a proprietary solution that requires an expensive dock and an expensive phone as it only works with two models, the Galaxy S and the Note, which are the flagship phones they make. It also doesn't have native support, they pretty much bolted it on top of the existing framework. The reason this matters is because when you have native support you don't need to work for one device or another (Xiaomi also has their own desktop mode). When you have native support it means it works for everyone and there's a standard and official support for both manufacturers and developers, as well as a consistent experience for users.

Samsung doesn't have the power to provide the underlying framework for Android apps to work properly in their desktop mode. They just try the best they can. Google, however, has what it takes to address the whole stack. Google I/O had a presentation on how Activities and lifecycles are handled for proper multi display support, as well as the ability to drag and drop stuff across apps. Even if you needed a custom launcher to provide proper desktop support, at least you have the APIs and other things you need to do a proper implementation. This is like knocking off a thunderbolt dock station saying Dell offered docking through their proprietary port going to proprietary docks and it sucked. Yeah, having a standard supported across the full software and hardware stack is much better than bolting on a proprietary software implementation that only works with a proprietary hardware dock. An Android standard is a much bigger impact than a Samsung feature. Not dissing on Samsung, they tried and I've seen people successfully using that feature, but putting it in official Android is a game changer.

Looks like you don't actually know anything about Samsung Dex since you're saying that it requires the Samsung Dex dock.

You talk a lot about native support and the benefits it brings, but it didn't improve performance at all when it came to multitasking and pip modes. Hell, the Samsung's version before android implemented its own was more stable in my experience.

Samsung Dex isn't even a proprietary protocol to activate it. All it does is check for some specific HDMI out signal and activates it.

You can get the desktop mode on a Samsung phone with a bunch of of USB C to HDMI adapters/docks. Don't need to spend anywhere close to $100 on a Samsung Dex dock (hell, a lot of times it's on sale for $50 too)

Like I said, mid tier hardware will probably perform like shit when its released and until Google does actually prove me wrong on this in any capacity (they haven't yet in any of the features that Samsung came out with first), I'll think otherwise.

 

[Chemical Tribe]

Not looking forward to Q - none of the minor new features are worth gutting the storage system. Sure, improved security for the file system would be great, except the implementation is horrible and they're going to force everyone to use it even though is a huge step backwards, just like they did with Pie's half-baked gestures and Assistant's feature set at launch being gutted compared to Google Now, or dropping Inbox even though it still has tons of features Gmail doesn't.

Desktop mode is worthless if they cripple the filesystem first too.

If iOS wasn't such a massive pain in the ass to use I'd have switched a long time ago, though at the rate Google's going they're going to wind up making Android just as hard to use as iOS.

That's not happening in q last I read. Too much change in too short time.

 

[vulpes vulpes]

Not looking forward to Q - none of the minor new features are worth gutting the storage system. Sure, improved security for the file system would be great, except the implementation is horrible and they're going to force everyone to use it even though is a huge step backwards, just like they did with Pie's half-baked gestures and Assistant's feature set at launch being gutted compared to Google Now, or dropping Inbox even though it still has tons of features Gmail doesn't.

Desktop mode is worthless if they cripple the filesystem first too.

If iOS wasn't such a massive pain in the ass to use I'd have switched a long time ago, though at the rate Google's going they're going to wind up making Android just as hard to use as iOS.

That's not happening in q last I read. Too much change in too short time.

They've only pushed it to next year. Hopefully they'll unfuck it in the next version like last time if they do go through with it.

 

[Chemical Tribe]

Not looking forward to Q - none of the minor new features are worth gutting the storage system. Sure, improved security for the file system would be great, except the implementation is horrible and they're going to force everyone to use it even though is a huge step backwards, just like they did with Pie's half-baked gestures and Assistant's feature set at launch being gutted compared to Google Now, or dropping Inbox even though it still has tons of features Gmail doesn't.

Desktop mode is worthless if they cripple the filesystem first too.

If iOS wasn't such a massive pain in the ass to use I'd have switched a long time ago, though at the rate Google's going they're going to wind up making Android just as hard to use as iOS.

That's not happening in q last I read. Too much change in too short time.

They've only pushed it to next year. Hopefully they'll unfuck it in the next version like last time if they do go through with it.

Way things are going I'll be happy with 7 or 8 forever. If only Google made it easy to have slim recents.

I forgot what annoying thing did Oreo kill?

 

[NeoMorpheus]

So once again, nothing major and mostly under the hood and icon changes...

The gesture system was crap and still is crap compared to the old digital home/menu/back button even if it's digital.

The biggest change in permission is allowing them to limit use while the app is active or in the background.

Google needs to curate their damn store and default permissions instead of trying to solve things with additional features... or at least push out Project treble. Until then, I don't see them pushing out anything worthwhile.

Android Q has a native Desktop mode. I think that's pretty significant. If that makes it to the final build it would mean that every Android device out there with Q will have the ability to truly become the only computing device needed for many people. While we have referred to phones, accurately, as pocket computers, they have been lacking in their ability to substitute a real computer aside from a couple proprietary implementations. These days smartphone hardware, even at the midrange, is powerful enough to satisfy most people computing needs, including work related, or studying. You could go through your entire university program or run a whole small business with just a phone and a few cheap peripherals.

For the first time this could open up real single device computing possibilities across the developing world without much of a compromise. Instead of buying a low end phone and a low end desktop or laptop for work, you could get a mid to high end phone and only use that with a dock. You could do personal, work, and even play on it. Real play, like 3D games with good visuals kind of play. I'm not sure one can so easily dismiss the opportunities this opens for millions of people around the world just saying it's "nothing major and mostly under the hood and icon changes". A native Android desktop experience available to every phone is most definitely a major change with potentially huge impact. Well, at least IMHO.

Those were my thoughts the first time i saw Samsung DeX.

Really glad that its coming to all android devices that have Q.

 

[Sir Twist]

Samsung is a proprietary solution that requires an expensive dock and an expensive phone as it only works with two models, the Galaxy S and the Note,

No "expensive dock" is needed on anything updated to Pie, just an HDMI adapter. Also, there were inexpensive non-Samsung DeX solutions even before that (e.g. https://www.amazon.com/Adapter-Charging ... B07DKZZD27 worked with my Note 8 even before the Pie update, and adding a USB3 GigE adapter gave me wired networking, if I needed it).

 

[thohac]

So once again, nothing major and mostly under the hood and icon changes...

The gesture system was crap and still is crap compared to the old digital home/menu/back button even if it's digital.

The biggest change in permission is allowing them to limit use while the app is active or in the background.

Google needs to curate their damn store and default permissions instead of trying to solve things with additional features... or at least push out Project treble. Until then, I don't see them pushing out anything worthwhile.

Android Q has a native Desktop mode. I think that's pretty significant. If that makes it to the final build it would mean that every Android device out there with Q will have the ability to truly become the only computing device needed for many people. While we have referred to phones, accurately, as pocket computers, they have been lacking in their ability to substitute a real computer aside from a couple proprietary implementations. These days smartphone hardware, even at the midrange, is powerful enough to satisfy most people computing needs, including work related, or studying. You could go through your entire university program or run a whole small business with just a phone and a few cheap peripherals.

For the first time this could open up real single device computing possibilities across the developing world without much of a compromise. Instead of buying a low end phone and a low end desktop or laptop for work, you could get a mid to high end phone and only use that with a dock. You could do personal, work, and even play on it. Real play, like 3D games with good visuals kind of play. I'm not sure one can so easily dismiss the opportunities this opens for millions of people around the world just saying it's "nothing major and mostly under the hood and icon changes". A native Android desktop experience available to every phone is most definitely a major change with potentially huge impact. Well, at least IMHO.

The developing world uses cheap dvi-only monitors paired with refurbished pc's. You can get a complete system for about $150 (and that includes 20% VAT). A mid to high end phone with accessories for docking will cost you far more then an extra $150

 

[LosAngelesPandas]

"... and third-party devices should get the update whenever their manufacturer gets around to it."

For some reason I love this comment...

Part of the reason I switched from Android.

Can't have manufacturers screw things up if you're the one that writes the software.

 

[Trondal]

Android Q has a native Desktop mode. I think that's pretty significant.

I think you're over-confident in that feature.

The sort of person that would use a phone for their primary computer has no need for a desktop mode. App makers have spent countless hours researching and developing phone UIs to handle touch input, and as a result fewer kids are growing up using a keyboard and mouse.

Input device designers have known for ages that user preferences are mostly based on what devices the users grew up using. That's why the DVORAK keyboard layout never took off as a replacement for QWERTY, too many users were used to QWERTY from the typewriter days, and the speed benefits of DVORAK couldn't be realized without investing a ton of practice.

The same scenario will play out with touch UI versus desktop UI. Android Q's inclusion of a desktop UI might be a neat feature, but it's not going to provide any speed or usability benefits to users that grew up on touchscreens. And app makers will continue to research and develop new ways to interact with touchscreen devices, whereas desktop UIs are likely to see development slow or cease entirely as touchscreen users become the norm.

Touch typing is not even a firm job requirement anymore to be able to work in technology. Some jobs you spend all day working inside of mobile apps, never once sitting at a desk.

You make great points about people being attached to what they grew up with, but desktop mode is about ergonomics and the use case.

If someone needs to work on a spreadsheet for a few hours or type up a long document, using a touch screen will be exhausting and slow.

I suppose the crux of your argument is based on who you believe would use the feature. I think we don't know until its been around for a while but I can see this being the beginning of mainstream convergence between laptops and phones.

 

[lalaltcdata]

So once again, nothing major and mostly under the hood and icon changes...

Forced SAF is nothing major? (and its crap!)

IOS get an actual filesystem... android starts to lose it.

 

[vikarti]

I mean, desktop mode has been a feature in samsungs smartphones for a while now. Google has shown that they cant implement features any better than Samsung for the past 3 years, (multi tasking apps, pip, and etc) so I'm not sure why anyone would expect it to work better than Samsung Dex. And the experience on Samsung dex is mediocre at best even on the latest hardware.

Desktop mode on smartphones right now is slightly better than netbooks back in the 2000s on top end hardware, middle tier hardware would struggle at it especially with how little ram they usually have.

Dex needs 3rd party app support to be really usable.
Everything is documented. Almost everything is needed for other usescases (like Chromebooks) but many developers just provide phone-only/touch-navigation-only versions.

Some apps just plain not to work without any reason to do so at all (Dashlane and Lastpass, I'm looking at you).

I hope this will change due to Desktop mode being official.

 

[Deleted member 1]

So once again, nothing major and mostly under the hood and icon changes...

The gesture system was crap and still is crap compared to the old digital home/menu/back button even if it's digital.

The biggest change in permission is allowing them to limit use while the app is active or in the background.

Google needs to curate their damn store and default permissions instead of trying to solve things with additional features... or at least push out Project treble. Until then, I don't see them pushing out anything worthwhile.

Android Q has a native Desktop mode. I think that's pretty significant. If that makes it to the final build it would mean that every Android device out there with Q will have the ability to truly become the only computing device needed for many people. While we have referred to phones, accurately, as pocket computers, they have been lacking in their ability to substitute a real computer aside from a couple proprietary implementations. These days smartphone hardware, even at the midrange, is powerful enough to satisfy most people computing needs, including work related, or studying. You could go through your entire university program or run a whole small business with just a phone and a few cheap peripherals.

For the first time this could open up real single device computing possibilities across the developing world without much of a compromise. Instead of buying a low end phone and a low end desktop or laptop for work, you could get a mid to high end phone and only use that with a dock. You could do personal, work, and even play on it. Real play, like 3D games with good visuals kind of play. I'm not sure one can so easily dismiss the opportunities this opens for millions of people around the world just saying it's "nothing major and mostly under the hood and icon changes". A native Android desktop experience available to every phone is most definitely a major change with potentially huge impact. Well, at least IMHO.

I mean, desktop mode has been a feature in samsungs smartphones for a while now. Google has shown that they cant implement features any better than Samsung for the past 3 years, (multi tasking apps, pip, and etc) so I'm not sure why anyone would expect it to work better than Samsung Dex. And the experience on Samsung dex is mediocre at best even on the latest hardware.

Desktop mode on smartphones right now is slightly better than netbooks back in the 2000s on top end hardware, middle tier hardware would struggle at it especially with how little ram they usually have.

Samsung is a proprietary solution that requires an expensive dock and an expensive phone as it only works with two models, the Galaxy S and the Note, which are the flagship phones they make. It also doesn't have native support, they pretty much bolted it on top of the existing framework. The reason this matters is because when you have native support you don't need to work for one device or another (Xiaomi also has their own desktop mode). When you have native support it means it works for everyone and there's a standard and official support for both manufacturers and developers, as well as a consistent experience for users.

Samsung doesn't have the power to provide the underlying framework for Android apps to work properly in their desktop mode. They just try the best they can. Google, however, has what it takes to address the whole stack. Google I/O had a presentation on how Activities and lifecycles are handled for proper multi display support, as well as the ability to drag and drop stuff across apps. Even if you needed a custom launcher to provide proper desktop support, at least you have the APIs and other things you need to do a proper implementation. This is like knocking off a thunderbolt dock station saying Dell offered docking through their proprietary port going to proprietary docks and it sucked. Yeah, having a standard supported across the full software and hardware stack is much better than bolting on a proprietary software implementation that only works with a proprietary hardware dock. An Android standard is a much bigger impact than a Samsung feature. Not dissing on Samsung, they tried and I've seen people successfully using that feature, but putting it in official Android is a game changer.

while it is true that first gen dex (S8) requires dock. the later gen dex can work with any USB-C adapter with video out (which you can find at amazon for 20 dollar). it can even work with USB-C power pass through. i have a USB-C adapter that works with both my switch and note 9. it is magical when i am on the road.

for what i need it do to. the dex mode works wonderfully. i use it for word processing, web browsing, email, power point, netflex, youtube. i understand it only work with Samsung cellphones and only with Samsung apps (sort like samsung dark mode), and i wish this ability can be extended to other andriod phones. However, i challenge you to list what's so "mediocre" about this experience, especially on the latest HW.

 

[Voldenuit]

So once again, nothing major and mostly under the hood and icon changes...

The gesture system was crap and still is crap compared to the old digital home/menu/back button even if it's digital.

The biggest change in permission is allowing them to limit use while the app is active or in the background.

Google needs to curate their damn store and default permissions instead of trying to solve things with additional features... or at least push out Project treble. Until then, I don't see them pushing out anything worthwhile.

Android Q has a native Desktop mode. I think that's pretty significant. If that makes it to the final build it would mean that every Android device out there with Q will have the ability to truly become the only computing device needed for many people. While we have referred to phones, accurately, as pocket computers, they have been lacking in their ability to substitute a real computer aside from a couple proprietary implementations. These days smartphone hardware, even at the midrange, is powerful enough to satisfy most people computing needs, including work related, or studying. You could go through your entire university program or run a whole small business with just a phone and a few cheap peripherals.

For the first time this could open up real single device computing possibilities across the developing world without much of a compromise. Instead of buying a low end phone and a low end desktop or laptop for work, you could get a mid to high end phone and only use that with a dock. You could do personal, work, and even play on it. Real play, like 3D games with good visuals kind of play. I'm not sure one can so easily dismiss the opportunities this opens for millions of people around the world just saying it's "nothing major and mostly under the hood and icon changes". A native Android desktop experience available to every phone is most definitely a major change with potentially huge impact. Well, at least IMHO.

I mean, desktop mode has been a feature in samsungs smartphones for a while now. Google has shown that they cant implement features any better than Samsung for the past 3 years, (multi tasking apps, pip, and etc) so I'm not sure why anyone would expect it to work better than Samsung Dex. And the experience on Samsung dex is mediocre at best even on the latest hardware.

Desktop mode on smartphones right now is slightly better than netbooks back in the 2000s on top end hardware, middle tier hardware would struggle at it especially with how little ram they usually have.

Samsung is a proprietary solution that requires an expensive dock and an expensive phone as it only works with two models, the Galaxy S and the Note, which are the flagship phones they make. It also doesn't have native support, they pretty much bolted it on top of the existing framework. The reason this matters is because when you have native support you don't need to work for one device or another (Xiaomi also has their own desktop mode). When you have native support it means it works for everyone and there's a standard and official support for both manufacturers and developers, as well as a consistent experience for users.

Samsung doesn't have the power to provide the underlying framework for Android apps to work properly in their desktop mode. They just try the best they can. Google, however, has what it takes to address the whole stack. Google I/O had a presentation on how Activities and lifecycles are handled for proper multi display support, as well as the ability to drag and drop stuff across apps. Even if you needed a custom launcher to provide proper desktop support, at least you have the APIs and other things you need to do a proper implementation. This is like knocking off a thunderbolt dock station saying Dell offered docking through their proprietary port going to proprietary docks and it sucked. Yeah, having a standard supported across the full software and hardware stack is much better than bolting on a proprietary software implementation that only works with a proprietary hardware dock. An Android standard is a much bigger impact than a Samsung feature. Not dissing on Samsung, they tried and I've seen people successfully using that feature, but putting it in official Android is a game changer.

while it is true that first gen dex (S8) requires dock. the later gen dex can work with any USB-C adapter with video out (which you can find at amazon for 20 dollar). it can even work with USB-C power pass through. i have a USB-C adapter that works with both my switch and note 9. it is magical when i am on the road.

for what i need it do to. the dex mode works wonderfully. i use it for word processing, web browsing, email, power point, netflex, youtube. i understand it only work with Samsung cellphones and only with Samsung apps (sort like samsung dark mode), and i wish this ability can be extended to other andriod phones. However, i challenge you to list what's so "mediocre" about this experience, especially on the latest HW.

Yep. My Tab S5e supports Dex without any docks, but I have never used it, because I already have 2 laptops at home, and I only use my tablet for media consumption and the occasional NAS/file server management. With a Snapdragon 670, though, it's definitely not the greatest hardware.

Then again, my old nokia N8 also supported USB/Bluetooth kb/mice, and even had a mini-HDMI out, and that was back in 2010.

 

[obarthelemy]

Android Q has a native Desktop mode. I think that's pretty significant.

I think you're over-confident in that feature.

The sort of person that would use a phone for their primary computer has no need for a desktop mode. App makers have spent countless hours researching and developing phone UIs to handle touch input, and as a result fewer kids are growing up using a keyboard and mouse.

Input device designers have known for ages that user preferences are mostly based on what devices the users grew up using. That's why the DVORAK keyboard layout never took off as a replacement for QWERTY, too many users were used to QWERTY from the typewriter days, and the speed benefits of DVORAK couldn't be realized without investing a ton of practice.

The same scenario will play out with touch UI versus desktop UI. Android Q's inclusion of a desktop UI might be a neat feature, but it's not going to provide any speed or usability benefits to users that grew up on touchscreens. And app makers will continue to research and develop new ways to interact with touchscreen devices, whereas desktop UIs are likely to see development slow or cease entirely as touchscreen users become the norm.

Touch typing is not even a firm job requirement anymore to be able to work in technology. Some jobs you spend all day working inside of mobile apps, never once sitting at a desk.

I depends though. If they keep being idiots and changing the UI between Touch and Desktop modes, sure. If they get a sudden flash of insight and keep the same damn UI but with a mouse pointer, as I do for the technophobes around me I switched to Android desktops, then it's really the same, except w/ a mouse instead of touch.