AMD’s FSR 2.0 debut, while limited, has upscaled our GPU hopes
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From the looks of it DLSS is overall a little better, but when it is not, the artifacts look worse than the worst I saw in the FSR screenshots.
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It looks like it is available on a wide variety of GPUs from AMD's website going as far back as RX 480/470/460 GPUs, so... maybe?
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I really am curious what this does in a VR world. I'm on a 5000 series card, which FSR 2.0 supports, but is also right at where VR can chug on AAA games. Being able to do something like No Man's Sky in VR with good frame rate would be great, and the 5000 without assistance isn't quite up to the challenge. FSR 2.0 might be the difference.
AMD's site on it: https://www.amd.com/en/technologies/fid ... resolution
[EDIT] Heh, beaten on the AMD site link.
AMD's site on it: https://www.amd.com/en/technologies/fid ... resolution
[EDIT] Heh, beaten on the AMD site link.
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Oops!
I am really impressed with how far back they've extended support for this, even going across the aisle to lift up older Nvidia cards. That alone makes this incredibly appealing (plus - never hurts to push the competition envelope).
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It’s awesome that FSR 2.0 works on Nvidia cards.
As an owner of a 1080, I am upset that Nvidia hasn’t made DLSS available.
As an owner of a 1080, I am upset that Nvidia hasn’t made DLSS available.
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Considering how well my aging 1080Ti still does on 1440p, I look forward to finding out if FSR 2.0 would let me game at 4k. When the PC parts shortage eases a bit more I may build a new gaming rig and turn this one into a living room gaming/HTPC box. Being able to game at 4k on my 120Hz adaptive sync TV would be fantastic.
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Aren't GPU's getting back to MSRP anyway? I'm seeing the 6900XT available as low as $999.99 at NewEgg. I picked one up a few months ago via new egg Shuffle (so not scalper pricing) and it was ~$1,200.
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Interesting that this also crosses over with the recent article about EVE. The upcoming addition of this to EVE will be very welcome. 99.9% of gameplay in it, framerate is generally not an issue. Then you have those .1% of giant battles with 1000+ players that make headlines. Squeezing every last frame out can be huge and mean the difference between winning and losing those engagements.
There's actually a lot to be said for the ridiculous amount of tech CCP have put into EVE to make those huge battles happen. TIDI isn't great, but it keeps things moving, albeit at a slow pace, which is wildly more preferably to a node just noping out.
There's actually a lot to be said for the ridiculous amount of tech CCP have put into EVE to make those huge battles happen. TIDI isn't great, but it keeps things moving, albeit at a slow pace, which is wildly more preferably to a node just noping out.
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They are, yep!
And they are showing up on places like /r/hardwareswap for reasonable prices, as well.
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Things are getting better. But the 6900 is a poor example, it's MSRP was already way out of line with actual performance because it was the halo card in the lineup. If you look at the 3070, 3080 or competing AMD cards you are still seeing markups $200-$400 over MSRP. It just happens to be $100 cheaper than last month. Then there are just more options in stock, so you're more likely to get the brand or sub-model you prefer.
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Wanted to note that Intel has their own scaling mechanism coming out soon (XeSS) and I believe it can also run on a variety of GPUs (not just Intel's)? Will be interesting to take a look at.
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In the first set of screenshots, the caption says 'not much difference' but I actually see quite a big difference - the FSR shot has way less jaggies in the power lines, in the neon sign, in all the doorway edging. It looks a lot better than the TAA, so if it's managing that PLUS getting an extra 10 FPS, I'm quite impressed.
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" Sure enough, gains for FSR 2.0 performance on newer RDNA and RDNA 2 GPUs, even going back to the Vega 64, surpass the ones you'll find on older AMD cards or on Nvidia's GPUs across the board."
Digital Foundry disagrees. An hour ago they released a video showing Nvidia GPUs take a smaller performance hit in FSR 2.0 than AMD GPUs. In some cases the difference is 200%.
Digital Foundry disagrees. An hour ago they released a video showing Nvidia GPUs take a smaller performance hit in FSR 2.0 than AMD GPUs. In some cases the difference is 200%.
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IIRC, Ai IS math. It seems to me it's probabilities. Rendering an image is algorithm based, which means it follows series of mathematical formulas. The algorithm dictates the order of those formulas.
So AI IS solving multiple math formulas in a set order, but it's doing it repeatedly, in microseconds, trying to replicate reality based on the formulas machine learning generated to arrive at a high probability of match. From what I've gathered about it, ML will generate and optimize the formulas, and even the order, since those can change as the data is evaluated, but it's ALL math underneath.
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Just finished watching the DF video on this.
It's no DLSS killer but it's nice to have when DLSS isn't available.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2RR2770H8E
It's no DLSS killer but it's nice to have when DLSS isn't available.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2RR2770H8E
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As an owner of a 2070, I am upset that Nvidia hasn't made resizable BAR available. I'm starting to notice a trend...
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The vast majority of the unique visual "issues" Alex Battaglia found with FSR 2.0 were SOLELY because he had the Sharpening setting set too high (read = literally maxed out in every single case). Adjust that setting correctly and it gets ridiculously close to the game's DLSS implementation, if not almost roughly on par (each is better & worse at different things).
Also I personally wouldn't trust anything Digital Foundry has to say when it comes to the subject of FSR considering just how ABSURDLY bad they completely & utterly botched their infamous FSR 1.0 video. Ala tons of major settings configuration mistakes, unaccounted for bugs, etc etc... that essentially invalidated a majority of his testing. Google if you want more info, as this was broken down to pieces on Reddit & plenty of places elsewhere at the time. Alex would admit all this was factual on Twitter, but still refuse to pull/update the video, or even leave an accurate description of how screwed up most of the testing in it was somewhere on the video itself (description, pinned comment, etc...). I lost a MASSIVE amount of respect for Alex that day (as well as DF as a whole). Dude's legitimately more obsessed with his YouTube reputation than presenting accurate facts.
IMO Hardware Unboxed (Techspot on the web) has consistently done the best and most unbiased &/or unborked image upscaling tech analysis. This going all the way back to even the DLSS 1.0 days (when they straight up destroyed their relationship w/ Nvidia over the topic lol).
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It's free and open source, so no you can't buy it, they are literally giving it away.
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This is a very promising start. I think it's already good enough to possibly displace DLSS in developer's attention, because it gives developers a solution that works across both Nvidia and AMD cards. No one wants to develop two solutions.
Now they just have to make it more efficient and a bit cleaner. Remember, this is the first version!
Now they just have to make it more efficient and a bit cleaner. Remember, this is the first version!
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I'm curious why DF shows a difference on that front compared to other testers. Could boil down to CPU choice? I'll look into it and update at some point.
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Those were NOT sharpening artifacts. It was clearly image breakup on FSR during animations.
Sharpening is a post process effect and would NOT have any impact on those kind of image breakup artifacts.
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I would expect technologies like this to become much more prevalent n the future. The actual added information between a 1080p frame and a 4K frame is maybe 1%, and not much more going from 720p to 1080p. What we call resolution is not really a difference in information content, but mostly how it is presented to interface with our eyes. Paying 4x the rendering cost for every increase is simply ridiculous. The extreme end would be to translate a few KB of state data directly into whichever image conveys that state the best.
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One thing that in principle could be done, is to target the FSR scaling model to a specific game or even a level. That way the number of parameters needed for accurate upscale performance would be reduced and could be optimized for what the upscaler is likely to see, thus increasing both visual and compute performance.
It's very interesting technology.
It's very interesting technology.
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Hardware Unboxed has a very good couple of videos on the subject. They show it as very close to DLSS, better in some aspects not as good in others.
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I'm sure Glorious Eggroll (GE) Proton will end up being able to force FSR 2.0 even on games that the devs didn't enable it on, as was the case with FSR 1.0
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I just checked for a friend. 6650 XT is still available for its $400 MSRP, 6600 non-XT is also available for its $330 MSTP, and 6700 XT is just $10 over MSRP at $490.
All NVidia GPUs are well above MSRP but those support DLSS anyway so FSR 2.0 doesn't matter--it's very slightly less performant and very slightly worse quality. Ignoring DLSS now that FSR exists, the AMD GPUs are the better deal. NVidia are better at RT but the difference isn't worth the current price gap.
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Don't hold your breath. FSR 1.0 is a general purpose image scaler. There's a reason the Steam Deck can run the entire OS in FSR 1.0. 2.0 requires per-pixel motion/depth information for its temporal algorithm for reasons I'd love to talk about but are too long for a simple response and there isn't a way to reverse engineer that for all games. Could release patches for individual games to turn FSR 2.0 on (pretty much any game with TAA should have the information already available somewhere in memory) but not a simple tool to flip it on for all.
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"Nvidia DLSS still working more efficiently"
Maybe simply because dlss2 use tensor cores, so it didn't steal processing power from the main gpu cores?
Maybe simply because dlss2 use tensor cores, so it didn't steal processing power from the main gpu cores?
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In Sweden the RTX 3060ti is still €700+, so I'd say it depends on where you live.
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Cranked up to 10 is actually the default FSR 2.0 sharpening setting in Deathloop. He discusses this in the video, saying he thinks it is clearly too much.
No, it just gives you a softer image closer to native (and DLSS). However, it does not affect the flaws he highlighted.
I just have to say I could not disagree more. I consider DF to be the gold standard for in-depth image quality analysis. The Hardware Unboxed videos are certainly very good and informative, but do not come close in as far as capturing the differences between the various techniques go, particularly in motion.
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Eh I don't know. I would have to read up on this. I have used the code for reading license plates (ALPR) which is pure algorithms. You can run it on a R Pi.
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fellow human
Ars Praefectus
Video codec hardware can be used to generate motion vectors and the depth buffer is typically available in reshaders. I could see it.
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It's all math, but it could be next to impossible for a human to try and write an actual algorithm to do all the things Neural Networks can do when they are simultaneously complex and subtle.
Could you imagine trying to write a human readable algorithm that would achieve the following result? I did SW dev for 20 years, and I wouldn't know where to start, if I got management request do something like this I would push back and tell them it's next to impossible (at least for someone with my skill set):
https://petapixel.com/2020/06/17/this-d ... portraits/
Neural Nets are great when you have defined inputs and outputs, but how to get between them isn't straight forward, you just train the network and you get a good output. Nearly perfect for complex and subtle image processing.
In this specific case, temporal scaling is fairly straight forward. Algorithms for it, existed before DLSS, and it does a decent job. You capture data over multiple frames, dither it, average it together in upscale, and you have much better upscale than single frame upscale techniques. Static content in particular looks fantastic.
Note that between DLSS 1.0 that required neural net training for each game, and DLSS 2.0 that used a general temporal approach backed by a neural network, there existed one unique version DLSS 1.x that was only in the game "Control" for a short period of time. That version of DLSS was in fact NOT a Deep Learning Neural Network, but was a standard human developed Temporal Scaling algorithm much like FSR 2.0, and it performed much like FSR 2.0.
The issue is improving "Control" specific DLSS 1.x, and FSR 2.0 traditional algorithmic approach to temporal scaling, when it comes to handling edge cases like animation breakup. That's a nightmare for the human trying to fix it, but just some training for the Neural Network to resolve.
I really wouldn't expect much improvement in those edge cases for FSR 2.0. At some point (RDNA 3?) I expect AMD will add dedicated ML HW, and FSR will get a neural net like NVidia and Intel (soon) have, to handle the edge cases. For now FSR is good enough and looks great most of the time.
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