Emails reveal Amazon has pushed back on FTC demands for data on all Prime users.
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Amazon execs may be personally liable for tricking users into Prime sign-ups
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I am in the UK. Several years ago, Amazon just suddenly started billing me for Prime. When I pressed them, they admitted their records showed:
They beat a hasty exit, offering my money back and to cancel the subscription which I hadn't ordered. But as far as I could tell, did nothing to rectify the general issue, and weren't keen to answer further questions.
- I had not ordered a Prime subscription,
- I had not used any Prime services,
- I had not used, ordered, or asked for a Prime Free Trial.
They beat a hasty exit, offering my money back and to cancel the subscription which I hadn't ordered. But as far as I could tell, did nothing to rectify the general issue, and weren't keen to answer further questions.
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Amazon music is another. I had Prime and Prime Video but Amazon Music was supposed to be free. You were blasted with ads to upgrade Amazon Music?? But that's Amazon there's always another tier even when you pay for one of their services. But then I cancelled Prime fine, all good, but then looking to verify the cancellation I see here I am signed up for a recurring Amazon Music subscription?? WTF?!
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Every time I buy something on Amazon I'm extremely careful as it seems I get subscribed to Prime without even noticing it and for peace of mind I double check after the ordering if I'm subscribed or not. At least they have fully refunded me each time I have noticed the subscription.
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This can’t be true, because Amazon execs tell me people only sign up for Prime when they really want to. Are you sure you didn’t really want Prime? You signed up, after all.
/s
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As a tech savvy, IT professional, I have personally signed up for Prime by accident, as has my eldest child. The description by the FTC is exactly right. It is too easy to sign up for without realising and an absolute PITA to get out of. Not quite as horrible a dark pattern as Cookie notices, but one of the worst dark patterns from a major company.
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Can confirm.
Spent two years of my life working for the Evil Smile's Logistics division...(Aka "Amazon," the one that sells stuff and delivers stuff.) It was a very educational, very difficult two years. And the hours were the worst imaginable hours, even during "regular," much less Peak season (the holidays or peak weak)
We'd hold stuff on purpose. I mean, "we" wouldn't -- the system would. We didn't do anything the computer didn't tell us to do, and what it told us to do was frequently "don't deliver this until Monday" even though the actual physical stuff was right there and there were trucks heading that direction.
I am pretty sure I've bought something through Amazon once since then. And it was because I needed it "tomorrow morning" and nobody else could get it to me that soon. It didn't even take twelve hours between ordering and receiving -- faster than tomorrow morning by 10 hours.
Amazon could absolutely get everyone their stuff sooner than they do, they just wanna be damn sure you know you aren't paying for Prime.
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I got hit by this twice in Canada. They literally had a checkout button that said "this order qualifies for 2-day Amazon Prime shipping" and nothing else. Click the button and you have Prime, without any explanation that it's an ongoing service and not just a bonus for placing a large order. I don't even think the actual streaming service was even available in Canada at the time.
I NOW pay for Prime by choice, but at the time I couldn't figure out what all the extra charges were for. So fuck Amazon. I hope they lose, and I hope Canada goes after them next.
I NOW pay for Prime by choice, but at the time I couldn't figure out what all the extra charges were for. So fuck Amazon. I hope they lose, and I hope Canada goes after them next.
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My favorite is how one can easily sign up for stuff like Amazon Music or Prime channels in app on Roku or mobile, but can only cancel them on a hidden website on a desktop browser. The app just says “can’t cancel on mobile” and no clue to start the treasure hunt.
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I've used Prime off-and-on for about 7 years. I've canceled several times and not had a problem, but anecdotes are not data. Dark patterns are a thing and companies should be punished for using them.
I agree that the FTC request for data is overreach. Just like all such situations, there should be an opt-in for sharing an email I've sent to Amazon to be shared with the government (unless I am part of a criminal investigation.)
I agree that the FTC request for data is overreach. Just like all such situations, there should be an opt-in for sharing an email I've sent to Amazon to be shared with the government (unless I am part of a criminal investigation.)
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"statistically significant sample of customer data," Oh sure, "here are the stats we want you to see" controlling the numbers is akin to data fabrication.
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If it's a massive risk to data security to provide this information to regulators then it is a massive risk to data security for Amazon to have it on their servers in the first place. Especially when the regulators are looking for the data to discover the extent of (alleged) wrongdoing by the company.
If regulators can't have a copy then you can't keep it. That should be a bog standard rule for regulating data companies.
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TFA claims:
-- which I'm pretty sure is exactly what I go through here in Oz when I cancel a free prime trial. Lots of "Cancel later" rubbish, implying that your Prime trial stops immediately after cancellation (it doesn't, it stops at the end of the original trial period, regardless of when you cancel), and reminders of the benefits with a "Keep Amazon Prime" option.
It always makes me even happier cancelling, seeing Amazon beg like that.
(Also -- if you sign up for Prime and don't use it, or if you forget to cancel your trial and it renews with a charge, you can still cancel for a full refund if you haven't used any Prime services (even weeks later). Nobody should be paying for Prime they don't use.)
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Amazon makes it so very, very easy to mark the 'yes' button on your order if you want to do free shipping. I hate that 'feature' because it looks so insignificant when you're checking out.
I have to consciously look at the shipping options and always press 'NO' to Prime membership. Otherwise it will default to "Yes" and you'll be auto-enrolled and billed for it.
Freaking fraud.
But it's slightly better than Walmart, which doesn't even check it off when you haven't ordered anything for over a year from them - they enroll you in their 'free' rewards (similar to Prime) program and charge your credit card anyway, even if you haven't ordered anything from them.
I caught them doing that, and had the credit card company remove the charges. I could trace back my previous orders and told the CC company to remove it NOW.
They did. Never told me what they found out, but it hasn't happened again.
Lesson of the story: Always check your credit card statement. You find many companies count on you not reading it. That's how they get away with it.
I hope the FTC gets the win in this case. The consumers have been screwed enough by corporations. We need relief from them.
I have to consciously look at the shipping options and always press 'NO' to Prime membership. Otherwise it will default to "Yes" and you'll be auto-enrolled and billed for it.
Freaking fraud.
But it's slightly better than Walmart, which doesn't even check it off when you haven't ordered anything for over a year from them - they enroll you in their 'free' rewards (similar to Prime) program and charge your credit card anyway, even if you haven't ordered anything from them.
I caught them doing that, and had the credit card company remove the charges. I could trace back my previous orders and told the CC company to remove it NOW.
They did. Never told me what they found out, but it hasn't happened again.
Lesson of the story: Always check your credit card statement. You find many companies count on you not reading it. That's how they get away with it.
I hope the FTC gets the win in this case. The consumers have been screwed enough by corporations. We need relief from them.
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Prime Music is like the Andromeda galaxy of dark patterns. I will NEVER sign up for that crap. I buy my mp3's a la carte through Amazon and it's like trying to diffuse a bomb set by the Joker just to not accidentally get roped into their music subscription service.
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I wish Amazon had a video only membership. I suppose it's nice as free perk for people who want the shipping, but I hate shopping on Amazon and have only bought stuff from them maybe a dozen times in the last 5 years for stuff that was otherwise difficult to source locally or from a specific amazon wishlist.
But now they're putting the squeeze on even Video.
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They s also go after them for how many pages you need to click through to cancel your membership. At least you can do it online, Hertz requires you to call to cancel your membership.
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Whats funny is when they do this, then decide to separate the order out into individual packages for faster delivery. Only to deliver all of the packages on the same day anyway (of course using multiple delivery drivers).
I literally had it once where I had 7 items in my order (including one item I ordered 2 of), everything was sold and fulfilled by Amazon. They split it into 6 separate deliveries (so I could get some items sooner as a couple others were delayed), including separating the multiple product. Then, promptly had all 6 packages delivered at 3 different times on the exact same day by 3 different Amazon delivery drivers... And this was after I had already checked the option to try to keep the packages togethe.
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i'm in the UK and the last time amazon tricked me into prime was via a non declared prime only delivery option on a product. When i called to cancel i was told they normally don't do refunds. I actually told the rep to fuck off with their illegal bullshit and cough up my money.
I also love how the cancel button is essentially hidden and without google would never be found (but hey sometimes it just doesn't work. so there's that)
I also love how the cancel button is essentially hidden and without google would never be found (but hey sometimes it just doesn't work. so there's that)
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"But the other kids were breaking the rules, too!! Why am I in trouble??"
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If they make it an opt in then no one will opt in and Amazon will continue to do what they do and the government will never know anything. They'll hide that opt in pages deep with more dark patterns than you knew could ever exist.
They are not sending PII to the government who are then storing it and using it against you. I'm all for not trusting the feds but there's not trusting and there's writing conspiratorial fanfic. This wouldn't give them anything they don't already have.
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Classic American capitalism behaving badly: do underhanded trade practices, trick customers, lie about it, then ask for special treatment from the courts. What a culture.
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Go through your bank or credit card issuer. That's what I do when a business plays bad. Contest any debits/charges you see that smell bad. With any good fortune it'll result in a chargeback to the vendor - even better, supposedly, if you use a credit card because legend has it card companies are pro-cardholder. You can fight dirty tricks.
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Amazon has proven they're masters of the dark patterns game. Stumbled across this page and document recently. It's an eye-opener.
https://www.oecd.org/digital/dark-commercial-patterns-44f5e846-en.htm
https://www.oecd.org/digital/dark-commercial-patterns-44f5e846-en.htm
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The sad part is that non-prime actually usually arrives on or before the advertised date, while prime deliveries continue to be rife with delays by all accounts (I haven't had prime in years so I can't personally attest). Like you I only buy from Scamazon when absolutely necessary
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A financial institution in the USA would get hammered hard by the CFPB (well, until Republicans regain full control of things and dismantle that.)
But the amount of hoops with the multiple negatives would definitely qualify as abusive and deceptive practices.
Absolute nonsense that non financial corporations can't be held to the same legal and financial ramifications for abusive and deceptive practices. Fine the corporation a significant percentage of gross revenue and criminally charge and hold liable the entire executive and governance board on the corporation.
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A "statistically significant sample" MUST be randomly selected. I could easily see Amazon saying, 'trust us, it's random.' A good reason the FTC said no.
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This reminds me of when the whole "one-click unsubscribe" legislation discussion (CAN-SPAM) was happening. The consultancy I was working for at the time had a big email marketing division for our commerce clients, and the folks in there were predicting the end of the world, our business would collapse, locusts would eat the harvest, end of days, etc, if one-click unsubscribe were mandated into law.
None of that happened, although I'll note that they've definately dark patterned their way around having as obvious an unsubscribe link as they can these days.
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as evidence you are right, see Wells Fargo… and many banks’ practices before the CFPB!
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Last year, when my mom was still subbed to prime, and sharing it (you can share it with one account) with my aging dad, I found that my dad not only had subbed to prime for ~2 years, but somehow renewed a prime sub ~6 months into a yearly sub. I don't know how it happened but I definitely blame amazon for it.
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Hell yeah, going after the individuals who oversee this shit. Fucking finally.
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Today's the day you learn the government employees have MUCH STRONGER rules regarding the protection of PII than the minimum wage slaves at Joe Billionaire's Wretched Hive Of Scum And Villainy.
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They are still fucking doing it. Whenever I do use Amazon since I cancelled prime they have been using deceptive bullshit constantly to get me to sign back up and get to pay for shipping but it's free with prime even though it still qualifies for free shipping.
Fuck Amazon, take these execs to trial.
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I have been tech savvy my whole life but when I finally cancelled prime 2 years ago it was anything but "easy with a quick search
" It is deceptively designed on purpose to trick people who don't know what to look for or make it too hard so people don't. You can't argue anything else in good faith. It was a as much of a pain in the ass as trying to cancel an account with a cable company on the phone.
It could only be worse if it was like what a certain company that sells continuing education courses for my job for recertification every two years started doing. They raised the price and made the only option an automatically renewing yearly subscription now to gain access to the materials. There is absolutely zero info on how to cancel the next yearly payment until you have clicked through a bunch of things that have no indication they do anything at all to finally get a prompt that says to contact this email address to modify the next payment date. Nothing about cancellations. I sent them an email yesterday telling them how disgusting this practice is and to cancel my subscription, I paid and used the service for my current renewal. I do not need it for another two years.
I haven't received a response yet.
Fuck these executives, they know exactly what they are doing and deserve every potential punishment.
Signing up is absolute trickery on every level and every time I use Amazon now every fucking step they are trying to trick you into signing up with a single click with misleading prompts and wording. I have to constantly remind my mother on what to look out for. Especially with shipping.
Bare minimum it should be as simple as 1 click to delete it as it is to accidentally sign up. They can't have it both ways.
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If your business model is designed around dark patterns and trying to abuse consumer trust then your business probably doesn't deserve to exist.
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We've had Prime since the early beginnings and I'm sure we pay way too much and get little value overall, but my wife orders 3-4 times a day, so we keep it. I don't support shady cancellations practices that people are experiencing, but I also don't think it's fair for a people to sign up when they need something with full intent to cancel within the trial period.
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oh I have no doubt the dark-pattern for cancellation is intentional
I have more doubts about the rest of the amazon enshittification - they are leaving money at the table, and often enough redirecting it to their competitors.
There isn't a good business case for each generation of their products to have worse UX (echo buds, alexa voice recognition, prime video... which was bad enough to start with, despite good content you will only find from youtube or external reviews).
But I can imagine each "revamp" justifying a number of PM + engineer promotions, with no way to fail because its not like that prime membership kpi is decreasing anyway.
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That is simple enough for the business to mitigate, by making the trial period longer, or any number of reasonable restrictions.
They are the ones proposing the contract, if people taking them at their word is not sustainable they can literally change it in a month
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Fun Fact: every single customer given in the "sample" data by Amazon doesn't exist.
Literally and physically. but Amazon claims they "were just hard to contact or may have moved recently". Absolute utter bullshit.
Even the ADVERTS on Amazon will sign you up to Prime if you click them and have any sort of active payment method setup. A single accidental click on an image with no further warnings or anything.
They've even started using the old trick of MOVING IMAGES under the mouse pointer so you click them 'accidentally'
Literally and physically. but Amazon claims they "were just hard to contact or may have moved recently". Absolute utter bullshit.
Even the ADVERTS on Amazon will sign you up to Prime if you click them and have any sort of active payment method setup. A single accidental click on an image with no further warnings or anything.
They've even started using the old trick of MOVING IMAGES under the mouse pointer so you click them 'accidentally'
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