AI industry horrified to face largest copyright class action ever certified

Copyright class actions could financially ruin AI industry, trade groups say.

See full article...

 

[cbreak]

This is why we should support the good drug cartels. We don’t want the bad ones to get edge on the market first.

Funny, China might be just as bad as the US in the end on AI, but at least they are giving lip service to the ethics of AI and global standards vs the US model of “I’m a tech CEO, trust me, but don’t regulate me…”.

This actually works I think.

By legalizing drugs, prostitution and the like, the government can regulate these businesses, and enforce standards with respect to safety, security, taxation and the like.

 

[JohnDeL]

ITT: Tons of people who are absolutely mistaken that this case is about whether LLMs by their very nature violate copyright. Except that this same court case has already adjudicated that it is not, and that the model's use of training data is transformative and fair use (you may disagree, but regards to this case it's a settled issue).

One judge in a preliminary judgement has ruled that using copyrighted data to train an AI is transformative. However, that same judge made several errors of fact in the preliminary ruling (e.g., stating that AIs "learn just like children") and has left the door open to revisiting the matter if better legal arguments are presented.

And even if he had ruled that any use of copyrighted data to train AIs is transformative, that is but one of the four factors needed for fair use. You can have a transformative use that nevertheless fails fair use (for example, if it destroys the market for the original).

And even if the judge goes on to rule that it is fair use, another judge can rule that it is not. This won't be settled law until Congress passes a law about it that the Supreme Court says passes Constitutional muster.

 

[Oldmanalex]

Is this not Judge Alsup of Prenda fame? Technobabble BS does not appear to be his kryptonite. (Apologies to Aurich and no breach of copyright intended.)

 

[Reaperman2]

A lot has changed since Napster, most notably tech bros owning the entire government.

Big Copyright doesn't stand a chance. And while I want both sides to lose, I'm not sad that it's them. No matter the outcome of this case, SCOTUS will hand the victory to their richest patrons.

 

[TC26]

For some additional perspective, consider that you’ve spent the last few months ruining any perceived advantage the US ever had over any country, let alone China (the country that singlehandedly facilitates your day-to-day). America is a failed state that finds itself careening into full throated fascism, which nobody respects. Your military hasn’t had success on the battlefield since 1945, no one is afraid of your hard power anymore. Soft power? Literally evaporated within a week of Trump taking over. Your entire economy is just… fraud. Who cares how many trump bucks the plagiarism machine is worth? The Chinese don’t, I’ll tell you that much.

I don't disagree with all of your comment, but it is rather comical that you seem to be unaware of, for just one example, the US military liberating a country halfway around the world in 6 weeks, with fewer than 300 fatalities, in 1991.

That's "hard power" to a degree that no other country in human history has exhibited.

The United States retains the military capacity to conquer all but a handful of nations. Occupying, administering, and pacifying such a territory after an invasion, however, turns out to be extremely difficult, as just about everyone has discovered since the Colonial era.

 

[RuralRob]

Not to worry, AI companies! A mighty Orange Knight will ride to your rescue any day now…

 

[Missing Minute]

I don't disagree with all of your comment, but it is rather comical that you seem to be unaware of, for just one example, the US military liberating a country halfway around the world in 6 weeks, with fewer than 300 fatalities, in 1991.

That's "hard power" to a degree that no other country in human history has exhibited.

The United States retains the military capacity to conquer all but a handful of nations. Occupying, administering, and pacifying such a territory after an invasion, however, turns out to be extremely difficult, as just about everyone has discovered since the Colonial era.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coalition_of_the_Gulf_War

 

[odikweos]

Good.

 

[TC26]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coalition_of_the_Gulf_War

Now count the forces and equipment by nationality, that were part of Desert Storm.

75% of the troops were American, and most of the rest were not involved in combat.

 

[Resolute]

I'm just going to say that becoming so defensive that you have to point to the US leading a very large coalition against a much smaller belligerent in defence of an even smaller victim as the only great sign of US military hard power since the end of the second world war is not the argument you think it is. I would also note that while the initial Gulf War had less than 300 coalition deaths (plus over 400 from the Kuwaiti military), that led directly to a decade long slog of an occupation that resulted in 4800 military deaths among coalition members.

Then you get into all of the knock-on effects of the American-led occupation and one thing remains true over the last century: with the possible exception of the Korean War, basically every time the US intervenes with its military, it leaves the region (if not the entire world) in a much worse state.

 

[jkav13]

In a post-citizens united world, all that matters is that the large AI companies have plenty of money to bribe our politicians. Apparently the Supreme Court now operates on that principle as well.

 

[SixDegrees]

I'm just going to say that becoming so defensive that you have to point to the US leading a very large coalition against a much smaller belligerent in defence of an even smaller victim as the only great sign of US military hard power since the end of the second world war is not the argument you think it is. I would also note that while the initial Gulf War had less than 300 coalition deaths (plus over 400 from the Kuwaiti military), that led directly to a decade long slog of an occupation that resulted in 4800 military deaths among coalition members.

Then you get into all of the knock-on effects of the American-led occupation and one thing remains true over the last century: with the possible exception of the Korean War, basically every time the US intervenes with its military, it leaves the region (if not the entire world) in a much worse state.

I'm also just gonna mention that the US prevailing against an enemy that's 75 years or more behind the US technologically isn't all that special. Especially when the end result is a massive failure with nothing good to show for the effort. It's every bit as special as Israel slaughtering defenseless Palestinians in pursuit of outright genocide, with a similar mismatch in capabilities.

 

[Missing Minute]

I am not defensive, merely educating a few people on some events that ought not to have escaped their notice.

And again, this military action was and remains unprecedented in human history.

And that's just one example, not the only one.



As I already explained, liberating or conquering a country is very different from subsequently controlling it -- as all of post-Colonial history demonstrates.



That's occurred in almost every military conflict, nearly by definition.

was and remains unprecedented

just one example, not the only one

Which is it?

 

[cbreak]

I don't disagree with all of your comment, but it is rather comical that you seem to be unaware of, for just one example, the US military liberating a country halfway around the world in 6 weeks, with fewer than 300 fatalities, in 1991.

That's "hard power" to a degree that no other country in human history has exhibited.

The United States retains the military capacity to conquer all but a handful of nations. Occupying, administering, and pacifying such a territory after an invasion, however, turns out to be extremely difficult, as just about everyone has discovered since the Colonial era.

Hahahahaha!

The current US is so weak that they feel their national security threatened by Switzerland! Yes, by a tiny, neutral nation on the other side of the globe. Much more so by China. Maybe because we're beating the US economically by a huge margin. (I remember when one $US would cost 1.1 CHFr, now I have to pay maybe 0.8). Or because they're a bunch of cowards.

And just look at how much their president is cow-towing to that genocidal maniac putin.

 

[San Diego Dude]

If this is your sincere belief, you have been lead astray by a cadre of stupid racists who can’t even spell AI.

If you don’t enforce copyright law, how are you any different from “the Chinese” that you fear? The ones who “don’t value” copyright? What makes your copyright violations ok? Is it maybe, perhaps, just that you’re also a racist who’s afraid of $current_targeted_racial_group because deep down you know how mediocre you and your country folk are? I hope not! I think you’re better than that.

For some additional perspective, consider that you’ve spent the last few months ruining any perceived advantage the US ever had over any country, let alone China (the country that singlehandedly facilitates your day-to-day). America is a failed state that finds itself careening into full throated fascism, which nobody respects. Your military hasn’t had success on the battlefield since 1945, no one is afraid of your hard power anymore. Soft power? Literally evaporated within a week of Trump taking over. Your entire economy is just… fraud. Who cares how many trump bucks the plagiarism machine is worth? The Chinese don’t, I’ll tell you that much.

I'll say it again, this case has nothing to do with training, judge already said this case isn't about what the data was used for, it's about using piracy to acquire that data, so you can stop with the what if's and should be's. Don't need your social media trust me bros.

As for your tirade about Trump, he's a clown and a fool and it's going to take decades to clean up the mess he's made. As for the entire economy just being fraud, yeah, okay, sure - Look up whatever country you live in and let's check some import/export and services data. I have a feeling you like American stuff. Like reaaaaally like it.

 

[fbern]

Good. AI companies deliberately flouted copyright laws to train their models. Now they are trying to use ignorance and play stupid to try and get away with it. This in addition to using the worn out trope of how doing anything against their interests will stifle innovation. Copyright laws apply to everyone regardless of their size. Full stop. If AI companies are found guilty of violating them, then they should be held accountable.

Although, despite all that I said, the cynical part of me thinks that nothing will come of this because there is always, always, ALWAYS some lame loophole or technicality that manages to let those with enough power and/or wherewithal to go scot free or settle without admitting any wrongdoing (I never fully understood WTF that means).

 

[ChickenFingers]

Our current AI industry exists because they stole content, modified and resold it with a chatbot instead of seeking licenses before when it would have been cheaper.

 

[fbern]

They need to work children in here somehow. Because someone needs to think of the children.

The people:

The U.S. justice system, U.S. government:

 

[kaisersoser]

Their entire argument is essentially "this will bankrupt us so please don't let it happen". That... cannot possibly hold up. It hasn't been a problem for individuals hit with copyright infringement, at least.

Why hasn't "big tech" gone after "big copyright" with this, anyway? If copyrights cause so much trouble for them, they ought to be arguing and lobbying that copyrights are too long.

Dude, this is America . In the supreme court, its not about what is legally right or wrong, but who has the deepest pockets that will get hurt.
The supreme court is absolutely nowhere to expect a sensible rulling on anything these days.

 

[Aswansong]

Perhaps the only positive news I’ve read, in as long as I can remember. If this works, and I get to watch Sam Altman go on trial for fraud/bankruptcy, I may have some faith in humanity again.

 

[JohnDeL]

Many other countries in that area could offer a home to Palestinians -- but they don't, because Palestinians are more valuable to their cause as martyrs than as human beings.

Why should the Palestinians leave an area that they have called home for at least as long as the Israelis have?

 

[Tokyo Morose]

ITT: Tons of people who are absolutely mistaken that this case is about whether LLMs by their very nature violate copyright. Except that this same court case has already adjudicated that it is not, and that the model's use of training data is transformative and fair use (you may disagree, but regards to this case it's a settled issue). Not even the plaintiffs, per the judge in a previous decision a couple months back, alleged otherwise. What Anthropic is being found liable for is a thoroughly conventional copyright issue. They have used the strategy of buying, digitizing, then destroying books--and if they stuck to that, they'd also have been in the clear. Their problem is that they just started outright stealing shit and retaining it. And they are going to lose, because despite any pleading about them being special AI snowflakes, it is, again, a thoroughly conventional copyright issue. This article is purely about how bad/chaotic it will be when they lose because of the issues surrounding class certification. That's all.

It is genuinely shocking how out of 7 pages of comments, maybe a dozen have actually touched on the the actual law or hard questions instead of various forms of gloating over an big AI corp potentially getting screwed or the evil of techbros.

Which I mean I agree with, but the real beauty of Ars (and why I eventually made my own account) is the technical knowledge of the commentariat and there's... virtually none here.

 

[SixDegrees]

It is not hard to understand, for those not being willfully obtuse.

No other country has liberated -- or conquered -- a country on the other side of the planet, in six weeks, with just a few hundred casualties.

That was and is unprecedented.

That is only one example of US military action since WW2, and the vast majority have been successful from a combat standpoint.

Do you understand now?

The US hasn't done that either. You're forced to gerrymander their "victory" by roping off the dismal failure of the entire enterprise.

And it wasn't six weeks. Pretty much Iraq's entire air force had been slowly decimated over the course of years of no-fly-zoning. Which as part and parcel of the ultimate utter failure of US involvement in Iraq.

And again: see also Israel's ongoing genocide for a similar example of nascent failure just waiting to blossom in Israel's face going forward.

 

[SixDegrees]

Because that area lacks the resources to provide for their survival.

And because those Palestinians could live in perfect safety in any one of dozens of other countries.

You do hopefully recall why Israelis are forced to live in that spot -- because they have no other choice, on the planet.

The world would be better off eliminating that residency altogether.

 

[JohnDeL]

Because that area lacks the resources to provide for their survival.

Mainly because the resources have been destroyed by Israel. And replacements for the resources are blocked from entering by Israel.

And because those Palestinians could live in perfect safety in any one of dozens of other countries.

So could the Israelis. So let’s move them, instead!

If it is fair to move one group, it is fair to move the other.

You do hopefully recall why Israelis are forced to live in that spot -- because they have no other choice, on the planet.

Really? Jewish people can’t live in the US? That’s going to be a surprise to the 7.5 million Jews who do live here (more than live in the rest of the world, including Israel).

 

[Missing Minute]

oops

 

[Tokyo Morose]

Fuck I wish this was still the 90's and techies were still anti-copyright.

Techies, including here, still are. It's just the desire to get one over on big tech overrides that feeling.

 

[JohnDeL]

Gaza is entirely dependent on imports.

Because Israel has destroyed the fields that the Gazans used to grow their food.

There is no place that Israelis can be moved to. Do you seriously not recall WW2?

Bette than you, I suspect. Do you seriously not remember the British Mandate?

Do you seriously not recall that a Nazi just bought the US President?

So your claim is that because the US is run by a NAZI, it is ok for Isreal to act like Germany in 1939.

The US -- like just about every country that isn't Israel -- is rife with antisemitism.

Parts of the US have a lot of anti-semitism. But other parts are very welcoming to Jews.

There is no US state that would accept Israel's population as refugees. And if one did, they'd be under attack constantly. This is why Israel exists.

No, Israel exists because the Arabs in British Palestine sided with the NAZIs in WWII out of fear that the Allies would continue to allow zionists to use terror as a way of gaining ground in the region. As punishment for that, they lost significant portions of land that they had owned for centuries and were divided into three, widely separated regions, making it very hard for them to defend themselves.

ETA: According to the Anti-Defamation League, the US is the seventh friendliest nation for Jews.

 

[SixDegrees]

How many aircraft were destroyed pre and post invasion?

Does Iraq control Kuwait today?




You're complaining about me being "forced" into a position, and you're resorting to speculation about what might happen in a completely different conflict?

I hope you can do better.

More gerrymandering. Including a complete redefinition of what the failed conflict was about.

But by all means, enjoy your jingoism. It seems important to you.

 

[TVPaulD]

wtf kinda click bait title is this shit, lol, "AI industry horrified" - got a source for that nonsense?

What the hell makes you think the industry is terrified of this one copyright case? It's not even about the training, it's the pirating of the content that this case is about... This is going to end up settling out of court, lawyers will get a massive payout, and 'authors' who register will get their 5 dollar check in 3 years or so.

The US is pushing hundreds of billions into corporate AI now. They're not going to shoot down the whole industry because a class action of authors is complaining. Anybody who thinks NOW THIS WILL END AI is just lying to themselves or huffing too much social media hopium (Ars is famous for this, they've been parroting the 'AI is a useless bubble' for years now, ya'll still holding your breath for that collapse???)

Most valuable private company in the world is OpenAI now, like it or not. You're not going to hamstring the entire US economy and handing over the next arms race to the Chinese over copyright. Too much money and power involved.

I’m curious…Do you, um…Do you actually know how private companies are “valued”?