Flush door handles are the car industry’s latest safety problem
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One would think some sort of flush mechanical design could work. like it's flush with the door, but you push it in and it pops the door open or something like that. I'm not a design engineer though, so I could be wrong about the simplicity of this.
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Good. Ban electronic door releases on the inside, too. Even if they have mechanical backups. Nobody should have to try to locate a hidden mechanical backup that they normally don't use in an emergency.
As for drag reduction, would a return to the 80s-90s help?
As for drag reduction, would a return to the 80s-90s help?
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Yeah, I can think of some ways you could do it where pushing one side pops out the other to pull or something... would still have some of the pinch injury issues and such and it's not as obvious how to use though, which would impact the emergency cases...
There's no good reason not to just use purely mechanical systems for a door latch.
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They are like the cybertruck of doorhandles, everyone in the room knows they are stupid but someone at top keeps pushing them.
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Yes, this exists and China would continue to allow this style but ban the electronically operated kind.
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Which basically describes how the Model 3 and Model Y door handles work. They still have problems with getting jammed up with ice, and I'm not sure if they are any more susceptible to failure in side impacts as a door handle with a "standard" hinge mechanism.
Rivians uses a similar hinge mechanism, but present themselves when you approach the vehicle. So it's kind of a hybrid. The Gen 1s use a mechanical latch that doesn't require electricity to operate, but I've heard that the Gen 2s use an electromechanical latch.
Edit: Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're suggesting, but the Model 3/Y work by pushing one end of the handle that pops out the opposite end that the user pulls to mechanically unlatch the door. Is this different than what you're suggesting?
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Flush isn't synonymous with electric. My EV6 has flush handles but they are 100% mechanical and will work with no power. The higher trims have pop out handles, but they can still be manually opened
For first responders, most cars auto lock while driving. If they don't unlock in a crash the responders will be locked out.
For first responders, most cars auto lock while driving. If they don't unlock in a crash the responders will be locked out.
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I think there are different designs of flush handles that can mitigate most of the concerns. And also ways to make them almost flush without compromising safety.
The flush Hyundai and Kia handles are motorized and retractable, but they can also be opened entirely mechanically without power. They are little more awkward to use when unpowered but it's entirely doable if you know how. You just push the front side in which pops out the rear grab handle part. This also how Chevy has done their Equinox EV handles which is powered on the higher trims but unpowered for the base model I believe.
I do have to say the Tesla version of the above lever type is not intuitive to me. I did not like them all that much when I was renting one, and also when I was a passenger. Maybe it's cuz they pop out in the opposite direction I expect them to and unlike almost all other car door handles.
The VW ID4 handles hardly protrude and still have the traditional well to slide your fingers under to open the door. That would be another alternative option to improve aero somewhat without going entirely flush.
Flush handles have also been an on again off again feature that cycles through the industry. I do think door handles should be operable when unpowered. So fully retractable or touch activated ones should be allowed unless there is somewhat for them to fail safe, but also not cause security issues that can be exploited.
C&D had a brief article on flush handles back in 2023 and some of the options seem safe enough to me.
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a44040564/modern-car-door-designs-amalyzed/
The flush Hyundai and Kia handles are motorized and retractable, but they can also be opened entirely mechanically without power. They are little more awkward to use when unpowered but it's entirely doable if you know how. You just push the front side in which pops out the rear grab handle part. This also how Chevy has done their Equinox EV handles which is powered on the higher trims but unpowered for the base model I believe.
I do have to say the Tesla version of the above lever type is not intuitive to me. I did not like them all that much when I was renting one, and also when I was a passenger. Maybe it's cuz they pop out in the opposite direction I expect them to and unlike almost all other car door handles.
The VW ID4 handles hardly protrude and still have the traditional well to slide your fingers under to open the door. That would be another alternative option to improve aero somewhat without going entirely flush.
Flush handles have also been an on again off again feature that cycles through the industry. I do think door handles should be operable when unpowered. So fully retractable or touch activated ones should be allowed unless there is somewhat for them to fail safe, but also not cause security issues that can be exploited.
C&D had a brief article on flush handles back in 2023 and some of the options seem safe enough to me.
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a44040564/modern-car-door-designs-amalyzed/
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Big and wide wheels, and thin tires, make the tires more expensive, the car noisier, less comfortable and less efficient. That's really the worst stylist push.
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Any drag benefits (considering there is still a seam which I would presume ruins laminar flow) aren't worth it for the safety issues they cause.
So much of design these days is "we can so we must" or "here's a solution! (that lacks a problem to solve)".
I'm also cognizant of building codes which these days require handle style door openers instead of knob style because some people with conditions (think arthritis or cerebral palsy) have issues gripping: are these motorized, flush handles accessible to all?
So much of design these days is "we can so we must" or "here's a solution! (that lacks a problem to solve)".
I'm also cognizant of building codes which these days require handle style door openers instead of knob style because some people with conditions (think arthritis or cerebral palsy) have issues gripping: are these motorized, flush handles accessible to all?
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But there's no point to it.
Why do we need pop-out handles? Just for diversity of door design? Just the 'in' fad of the day?
I think I hate all these car fads we have going on.
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I have irrationally(?) strong feelings about this. I may be an outlier but on average I use the door handles 2x every trip in the car (sometimes more!). I use my car's maximum range nearly 0 times per trip.
Hopefully we can go back to where door handles just work all the time every time. Even without power, when they're wet or when covered in a layer of ice (as long as it's not too thick).
Hopefully we can go back to where door handles just work all the time every time. Even without power, when they're wet or when covered in a layer of ice (as long as it's not too thick).
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That is almost exactly how it works on the Honda e, where the handle pivots about a third of the way along its length, and pushing the short end in pushes the long end (that you pull) out. There are also standard door handles on the inside of the doors, which is pretty important.
We had a total battery failure last week, and the mechanical key could open the driver door without problems.
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Yes, this is how the door handles on my Ioniq work. It's a bar with a pivot about a third of the way down the handle- when the electronic lock functions it pops the back 2/3rds out.
But if something bad happens you can press on the forward 1/3 to pop the back out enough to get a grip on it. It also allows access to the key hole under the door handle if the power dies
The internal latches are also mechanical, so no issues on power failure in a crash. The Tesla "We've hidden the mechanical release in the door and you have to remove the lining to pull on a cable" mechanical override on back doors should 100% be illegal
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Also: freezing rain!
With heavy freezing rain even traditional mechanical door handles can be tough to open.
With heavy freezing rain even traditional mechanical door handles can be tough to open.
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I think it's a surprisingly complicated problem. For aero (and aesthetics I suppose), you want there to be no door handle. That's not a great solution though, so that's why everyone's trying to find a way to hide them.
The push-to-pop solution can work, but you still need a way to pull the door open. You can go the route that I think the Model 3 and Y do, if I'm remembering correctly, where you push one side of the handle to lever the other side out to give you a handle, but that's kinda awkward and I'm sure people with less dexterity can struggle with that. I bet they suck shit in freezing rain as well. You can do the "pop it part way and just stick your hand in the opening" technique, but there are other challenges to that. You have to make sure the door can't be closed while someone's sticking their hand in there. You could add a little protrusion somewhere to give users something to grab to open the door, and just minimize it so its areo impact is minimized.
There are the other issues mentioned in the article as well. I hadn't thought about how flush handles might be worse in accidents but it makes sense. You need clearance for the handle to pop out before it can even act as a handle. The electronic popper version may be less suspectable to this failure (if the button to actuate it is just a button), but then you have to worry about the failure of the button. Is that better or worse? I don't know.
It's pretty insane to think about how complicated seemingly simple shit is for people making these design decisions. In our heads we just think "door needs handle" and that's it, but it's probably a significant part of the job for a few people just to design the door mechanism of a car.
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I don't like 2 motions to operate a door. Give me a single pull (or lift if it's an old Lambo).
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"The rotation of the wheels and tires is one of the greatest contributors to drag, yet the stylists' love of huge wheels means most EVs you'll find on the front lot of a dealership will struggle to match their official efficiency numbers (not to mention suffering from a worse ride)."
https://research.chalmers.se/publication/510629/file/510629_Fulltext.pdf
Apparently the really important thing is having wheel covers. Which is interesting because then larger wheels allow more cooling air to reach the brakes on the inside, assuming equal sized calipers.
https://research.chalmers.se/publication/510629/file/510629_Fulltext.pdf
Apparently the really important thing is having wheel covers. Which is interesting because then larger wheels allow more cooling air to reach the brakes on the inside, assuming equal sized calipers.
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TECHNICALLY they're reinventing the door, not the wheel...Good for them. Maybe that's one thing we can import tariff free.
Door handles are a solved problem. Why do these clowns keep wanting to re-invent the wheel?
... oh wait.
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Wonder how much the repair costs are on those automagic door handles? The magic open/close gizmo is yet another piece of tech that can fail and will probably cost hundreds to repair. This really seems like a solution(bad) in search of a problem.
All doors should be able to be opened from the inside without needing electrical power. Using the normal open door process, not some hidden emergency release lever that almost no one will remember when the cabin is full of smoke. Possible exception for child lock doors but even those should be designed that if a crash is detected, the child locks are turned off.
All doors should be able to be opened from the inside without needing electrical power. Using the normal open door process, not some hidden emergency release lever that almost no one will remember when the cabin is full of smoke. Possible exception for child lock doors but even those should be designed that if a crash is detected, the child locks are turned off.
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RickRoyLeonPrisZhoraRacha
Ars Scholae Palatinae
Didn't drivers die in a Tesla because power was cut, and only way to open from the inside was from a lever in the back of the car, below the seat? How can you see this when the cabin is filling with smoke?
Door handles should be manual, and easily accessed from inside as well as outside. 1980's flush handles are calling... (credit to username barich)
Door handles should be manual, and easily accessed from inside as well as outside. 1980's flush handles are calling... (credit to username barich)
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Yes, this is the way the flush fit works on the Tesla Models 3 and Y, whereas the S, X and Cybertruck have the more complex design, with persistent reliability issues.
The problem isn't flush fit per se, it is the motorized door handles.
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There are some things that just shouldn't require prior knowledge though. IMO car door handles are one of them.
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Unless you're racing, you don't need to cool the brakes any more today than we did back when we had 14" wheels.
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Why do car designers seem to hate sidewalls? I would gladly sacrifice a tiny tiny bit of responsiveness for better efficiency, smoother ride, and less potential for pothole damage. If it is just aesthetics, it seems hard to believe that their market research would say tiny sidewalls are the answer. Maybe they look really cool to other people and I'm the one who can't pry myself away from the form follows function mantra. Or, is there some critical thing that necessitates low profile tires?
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I'm very happy to see this conversation, and the Chinese approach. The electric, recessed door handles on our Ioniq 6 is probably my biggest dislike about that BEV, both for safety and practical reasons. The added complexity and risk is just not worth the very minor payoff in looks and mileage.
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They did a smart thing for the "emergency" release in the Mach-E. The interior door releases are a "handle" that you pull, but it triggers the electronic door popper to open the door for you. But in the event that fails, like a serious accident that kills all power, the same handle triggers the mechanical latch when you pull it a bit further. No need to teach a user what to do in an emergency, which they'll never remember in the moment. They just do what they're naturally going to do, pull the shit out of the thing they pull every other time they get out of the car, and the door will open.
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Agreed. Just like there's no good reason to replace steering wheels with yokes, mechanical buttons with capacitive buttons, etc. And yet automakers keep pushing this stuff because it feels novel and futuristic. This is particularly the case with EVs, given their perception of being a change from the cars of old.
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Reminds me of those pop-up motorized headlights, or the motorized shoulder seat belts from decades back.
In the long run, I bet these silly door handles go the same way.
In the long run, I bet these silly door handles go the same way.
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Can I vote for banning touchscreen controls in cars for all major and most minor functionality as well?
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I dislike all systems like that due to freezing in winter, especially when snow initially melts on contact with a warmer car and the water gets into various gaps before re-freezing. At least with non-pop out handles, you immediately have leverage on the handle itself.
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