Microsoft to replace flickering Surface Pro 4s for free
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Is a refurbished replacement really okay?
I ran into the same thing with a Dell laptop. The TPM went bad, and they wanted to send me a refurbished laptop as replacement. My thought was that I had paid full price for a brand new machine, and here I was a few months later faced with having paid full price for a refurbished machine. I ended up saying no, and insisted they send me a new mainboard, thinking I got around the issue. But turns out the board was refurbished as well.
I can see the counter argument, that the machine by this point is technically used, so getting a used replacement isn't really different.. But it was used by me..
I ran into the same thing with a Dell laptop. The TPM went bad, and they wanted to send me a refurbished laptop as replacement. My thought was that I had paid full price for a brand new machine, and here I was a few months later faced with having paid full price for a refurbished machine. I ended up saying no, and insisted they send me a new mainboard, thinking I got around the issue. But turns out the board was refurbished as well.
I can see the counter argument, that the machine by this point is technically used, so getting a used replacement isn't really different.. But it was used by me..
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Any chance we could stop referring to almost every other problem as 'whatever'-gate? It's getting a bit old…
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Well. I got two Surface pro 4s (both 4 GB ram/128GB storage) and fortunately, this hasn't happened yet...
But one of them did literally die (won't wake up or boot up) and Microsoft just replaced it with a new one since they suspected that it was a main board issue.
TLDR: Back up your data since the internal storage in most of these tablets and ultrabooks are not accessible once the device breaks.
But one of them did literally die (won't wake up or boot up) and Microsoft just replaced it with a new one since they suspected that it was a main board issue.
TLDR: Back up your data since the internal storage in most of these tablets and ultrabooks are not accessible once the device breaks.
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I assume it's a solder issue where it cracks and the connection breaks like the Xbox 360.
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I can answer that.
NO
My daughter had a faulty Asus laptop... the refurb warranty replacement was way worse.
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Microsoft... quick to fix a defect?! Especially a hardware defect? bwahaha Did Microsoft's Xbox 360 Red Ring of Death teach us nothing?
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Would a hairdryer, applied to the case, be able to heat the solder enough fix it without melting the plastic of the surface itself? IIRC from my youth, tin-lead solder melts ~ 190C, even if it starts to flow well enough to fix the issue at 150C (random number), the case would be ruined long before then, would it not?
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I've used a Surface Pro 1 in the past, and my current laptop is a Surface Book 1 dGPU. Both machines have been terrific to use, they feel very well put together, and the feature set for the SB at least is basically unobtainable from any other manufacturer (~13" convertible ultrabook with a great trackpad and discrete GPU).
But when the "Enter" key on the Surface Book's keyboard broke, I had a heck of a time getting it fixed. MS was very quick to approve my online RMA request, but I went through 2 refurb Surface Books before they sent me one that actually works properly.
The first one had a stuck latch on the keyboard dock, which would refuse to let go of the clipboard. The second one had a worn out hinge, such that the laptop would flop open or shut from gravity.
Both times, MS's online support instantly approved an RMA and e-mailed me a prepaid shipping label to send the faulty units back.
A quick glance at the Surface subreddit and some associated forums shows that many people have had a similar experience.
I can't fathom the business sense in having me RMA 3 laptops, versus spending a little extra on QA during the refurbishment process.
It also makes me less likely to buy a Surface product in the future, because even though they did ultimately solve my issue at no out of pocket cost to me, I was without a laptop for nearly 3 weeks while they fooled around with shipping.
I think this is something that the Surface division needs to really work on - quality control, and appropriate responses to customers with issues. They should have admitted to this Surface 4 flickering issue months ago and quickly resolved it. They gained nothing from dragging their feet, and have earned a decidedly negative response from owners and the tech press as a result.
But when the "Enter" key on the Surface Book's keyboard broke, I had a heck of a time getting it fixed. MS was very quick to approve my online RMA request, but I went through 2 refurb Surface Books before they sent me one that actually works properly.
The first one had a stuck latch on the keyboard dock, which would refuse to let go of the clipboard. The second one had a worn out hinge, such that the laptop would flop open or shut from gravity.
Both times, MS's online support instantly approved an RMA and e-mailed me a prepaid shipping label to send the faulty units back.
A quick glance at the Surface subreddit and some associated forums shows that many people have had a similar experience.
I can't fathom the business sense in having me RMA 3 laptops, versus spending a little extra on QA during the refurbishment process.
It also makes me less likely to buy a Surface product in the future, because even though they did ultimately solve my issue at no out of pocket cost to me, I was without a laptop for nearly 3 weeks while they fooled around with shipping.
I think this is something that the Surface division needs to really work on - quality control, and appropriate responses to customers with issues. They should have admitted to this Surface 4 flickering issue months ago and quickly resolved it. They gained nothing from dragging their feet, and have earned a decidedly negative response from owners and the tech press as a result.
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Looking around, it seems the flickering happens after the device heats up. I think they were using the hairdryers with the heat off to help it dissipate better.
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refurbished!
I'm pretty sure your manufacture's warranty (in the EU) entitles you to your money back or (new) replacement.
I'm pretty sure your manufacture's warranty (in the EU) entitles you to your money back or (new) replacement.
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Yes I have an affected device and it seems related to over heating - in my case particularly occurs when charging, presumably due to the extra heat. Anything that cools it tends to resolve it for a bit but not for long.
Was just about to get rid of it so this is pretty good timing for me
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Aside from the desire to not replace hardware(that, at this point, there may or may not be a ready supply of suitable refurbs for, the model isn't getting any newer) I have to wonder what they managed to spend a year thinking they might be able to fix in software.
It's Skylake-era intel integrated graphics driving Microsoft's choice of panel over eDP.
What sort of firmware bugs or driver issues were they expecting that were subtle enough to make it out of R&D and mass production(of both the SP4 and any other products using the same eDP LCD driver; and the basically-all-the-products using Skylake IGPs) without being noticed; but unpleasant enough to produce those rather gruesome display artifacts?
It's Skylake-era intel integrated graphics driving Microsoft's choice of panel over eDP.
What sort of firmware bugs or driver issues were they expecting that were subtle enough to make it out of R&D and mass production(of both the SP4 and any other products using the same eDP LCD driver; and the basically-all-the-products using Skylake IGPs) without being noticed; but unpleasant enough to produce those rather gruesome display artifacts?
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This really shows you've never worked on the other side of this. First off, what makes you think the new unit wouldn't have the issue? They have to clear out the stock that had the issue and that assumes they're still manufacturing the SP4 which they aren't. So if they reworked leftover stock they'd still count that as refurb. Refurbs are also more likely to happen stateside rather than at whatever Chinese factory they produce these at so the quality control is going to be higher. I'll take a refurb over new for electronics any day. Your warranty is only valid if you buy new so in in your mind that doesn't exist a situation where refurbs are okay which is pretty mind boggling when thinking how this would work from a stock and parts perspective.
Now if you do get a bad refurb, send that back as well, but any half decent company will have a proper refurb program.
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J.C. Helios
Ars Scholae Palatinae
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As a veteran digital hardware engineer, this all sounds very familiar and totally consistent with a non-fixable hardware bug.
Communication between ICs is highly dependent on timing and the waveforms of the signals. Real digital waveforms aren't simple and clean on/off levels like you see in text books; they're all wiggly and nasty. The timing of the signals depends a LOT on the length of the PCB traces, lot-to-lot variations in the ICs themselves, and the temperature. Hot chips propagate signals slower, and cool chips run faster. That';s why we have fans in electronics instead of heaters.
If the timing between two chips is marginal, they may work at some temperatures and not others. Any decent hardware lab will have a hairdryer and cans of freeze spray just for this sort or debugging. We also have big (and notoriously unreliable) environmental chambers to test operation at high and low temperatures.
It makes total sense that heating or cooling some devices can help. A temp change shifts the timing just enough to get things working again, at least for a while.
This sort of bug is usually the result of not having designed in enough timing margins between chips, or within a chip, to account for the range of timing variation over temperature and manufacturing variation. You can also create problems with the PCB design if you're not careful to match the PCB trace lengths and keep signal waveforms clean. And sometimes you just don't have enough data to know what the worst-case timing might be.
This is all standard high-speed digital design debugging. It sounds like some customers just got unlucky and received a device that had marginal timing. MSFT should just replace the device and be done with it.
Communication between ICs is highly dependent on timing and the waveforms of the signals. Real digital waveforms aren't simple and clean on/off levels like you see in text books; they're all wiggly and nasty. The timing of the signals depends a LOT on the length of the PCB traces, lot-to-lot variations in the ICs themselves, and the temperature. Hot chips propagate signals slower, and cool chips run faster. That';s why we have fans in electronics instead of heaters.
If the timing between two chips is marginal, they may work at some temperatures and not others. Any decent hardware lab will have a hairdryer and cans of freeze spray just for this sort or debugging. We also have big (and notoriously unreliable) environmental chambers to test operation at high and low temperatures.
It makes total sense that heating or cooling some devices can help. A temp change shifts the timing just enough to get things working again, at least for a while.
This sort of bug is usually the result of not having designed in enough timing margins between chips, or within a chip, to account for the range of timing variation over temperature and manufacturing variation. You can also create problems with the PCB design if you're not careful to match the PCB trace lengths and keep signal waveforms clean. And sometimes you just don't have enough data to know what the worst-case timing might be.
This is all standard high-speed digital design debugging. It sounds like some customers just got unlucky and received a device that had marginal timing. MSFT should just replace the device and be done with it.
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I have 2 Surfaces, Pro 3 & 2017, its my favourite machine by a mile, but Microsoft is too dam obscure regarding these issues, to the point of full opacity - in that sense they remind me of Sony. Never admiting any thing, only acting when the whole affair is unsustainable, etc. It throws a big shadow on the whole company but i guess they dont care.
Also, glad to see people questioning the justice of the Refubirshed way. I thought i was alone in my doubts.
Also, glad to see people questioning the justice of the Refubirshed way. I thought i was alone in my doubts.
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After viewing the flickering in action I'm a bit surprised that the problem didn't cause a seizure in susceptible people.
Edit: I'm puzzled by the downvotes-- strobe-like screen activity can and does cause seizures in some.
http://msgboard.snopes.com/cgi-bin/ulti ... 9;go=older
Edit: I'm puzzled by the downvotes-- strobe-like screen activity can and does cause seizures in some.
http://msgboard.snopes.com/cgi-bin/ulti ... 9;go=older
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The solder won't melt, but thermal expansion can nudge the two sides of a broken connection back into intermittent contact.
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No, no, no! I can't mention any names but my guys are THIS close to digging up the scoop of the century on one of the original founders of Microsoft. Just hang on a little longer. We need this, baby!
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Been trying to for years but it's apparently impossible for anyone born before 1970.
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Fans are not used to maintain the speed of semi-conductor devices.
They are used to extend the lifespan of semi-conductors and other parts who have primary or dominant failure modes that are temperature sensitive. This pretty much includes all modern semi-conductor-based devices.
There are other failure modes that are not limited to semi-conductors that are also quite temperature sensitive. Solder joints are a prime example, and package thermal strain due to expansion/contraction are others.
They are used to extend the lifespan of semi-conductors and other parts who have primary or dominant failure modes that are temperature sensitive. This pretty much includes all modern semi-conductor-based devices.
There are other failure modes that are not limited to semi-conductors that are also quite temperature sensitive. Solder joints are a prime example, and package thermal strain due to expansion/contraction are others.
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I've been half-hoping and half-dreading another scandal happening at the Watergate because I'll be expecting at least one newscast that either calls it "hotel-gate" or "Watergate-gate."
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I think it's really the amount of time used that justifies the replacement.
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Conventional wisdom is that Apple refurb units are even better than brand new units, since they've probably been inspected and tested more.
I wouldn't automatically assume that refurb units are inferior to new ones.
That being said, different manufacturers have different standards.
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Not only for prolonging life.
The behaviour of the semiconductor changes with temperature (among other things, transistors get slower with higher temperatures).
Devices are designed/qualified to operate correctly in a given temperature range.
Many devices need to be cooled in normal operation.
Otherwise they heat up beyond their operation range and no longer work correctly.
Or they heat up to destruction.
Many devices include thermal shutdown protection.
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That's why I really admire the work of competent mechanical and electrical engineers because once the product they've worked on is released, any large defects will result in major financial loss for the company since hardware repairs are Very Very costly. Us software droids, at least most of the time, can send an "update" to solve issues that we didn't catch before release.
Then there are the program managers that come to the software group and ask if there can be a software fix for the hinge that failed because of material fatigue... meh.
Edit: Grammar
Then there are the program managers that come to the software group and ask if there can be a software fix for the hinge that failed because of material fatigue... meh.
Edit: Grammar
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It may not be possible to fix a hinge in software; but having had the...mixed pleasure...of dealing with the behavior of the 'Surface DTX' device, drivers, and supporting software bits I can confidently report that you can break a hinge in software; so there's that.
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Apparently they were the ones to fail to learn from their $1+ billion dollar mistake -- failing to respond to design defects can bite you much harder than acting on them promptly.
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If only they did this for the battery capacity degeneration issue with the SP2. The software update didn't fix it and I was forced to pay to have it replaced with a refurbished surface. WTH MS?
They can't blame this on normal usage so they have to fix it. The stupid thing about the battery issue was there was a log of the capacity and you could see it all the sudden dramatically drop over a 3 week period. Yeah, I ran my surface pro 24/7 on battery and only plugged it in to charge it. pfffttt.
They can't blame this on normal usage so they have to fix it. The stupid thing about the battery issue was there was a log of the capacity and you could see it all the sudden dramatically drop over a 3 week period. Yeah, I ran my surface pro 24/7 on battery and only plugged it in to charge it. pfffttt.
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Curious to know what the warranty period will be for these refurb units? Will they just be covered for the term of the original device, clock starts again, or just 90 days?
Given the pain users have to go through (dealing with the issue, going through RMA, backup/rebuild the machine etc) I'd hope they're generous with extension.
I managed to work my way through three SP3s thanks to battery and mainboard issues and the refurbs never extended warranty and after the last one died I switched to a Mac (luckily before they started making them with horribly unreliable keyboards! - https://www.cultofmac.com/545441/macboo ... -petition/
Given the pain users have to go through (dealing with the issue, going through RMA, backup/rebuild the machine etc) I'd hope they're generous with extension.
I managed to work my way through three SP3s thanks to battery and mainboard issues and the refurbs never extended warranty and after the last one died I switched to a Mac (luckily before they started making them with horribly unreliable keyboards! - https://www.cultofmac.com/545441/macboo ... -petition/
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If they're fixing devices going back 3 years why only Surface Pro 4? My 3 with this issue is only ~3.5 years old.
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Huh? No I think MS just hasn't learned their lesson. If you have a defect you blame the consumer plain and simple.
/s (apple joke)
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I can't even fathom how you could come up with this nonsense about fans.
Edit: not worth all the typing.
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