Will there be a Dune: Part Three? Yes… with caveats on timing

Timing of a big-screen return to Arrakis mostly depends on director Denis Villeneuve.

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[AdrianS]

I really liked The Dosadi Experiment and the arch with the few books in Herbert’s ConSentiency series. Some really dystopian detective SciFi that someone could do justice to.

This I'd like to see.
Shorter books make better films, IMO. (Unless you're the sort of filmmaker that can turn a short book into 3x3 hours of tedium <cough>the hobbit</cough>).

There's also the whole ConSentiency universe to set more stories in, which will please the studios - start with Dosadi, then Whipping Star, then branch out.

 

[THT]

Seems like you more have a problem with Herbert’s world-building than the movie itself. You don’t find Dune to be internally consistent.

In regard to the attack on the spice harvester, perhaps the fremen don’t possess sufficiently powerful or long range lasguns to attack from a distance.

It was really a comment about how one little thing can change your suspension of disbelief. Any world building has holes that you can pick on and most of the time I just go with it. The trick for the movie or the book is to keep you entranced and not thinking about it and enjoy.

That one scene made me think there was no point to the Feydakin (?) attacking the spice crawler if they could have lasered it in a matter of seconds, and dropped me into thinking about things instead of enjoying.

I was fine with the Dune part 1 part where the Harkonnens were trying to laser Idaho’s ornithopter. Didn’t think much of it other it being a cool visual. But if you think of it, there’s thousands of Harkonnens, Sardukar, and Atriedes soldiers on the ground, most with shields on, many ships on the ground with shields on, and they have a continuously lasing beam swiveling around going through everything on the ground? Battle was mostly over, but that laser was going all over the place.

 

[Dark Jaguar]

Frank Herbert didn’t limit his warning to one cause and the trilogy wasn’t an accident: https://web.archive.org/web/20120107220342/http://www.frankherbert.org/news/genesis.html

Paul Atreides was written to be admirable, before FH deconstructed the consequences later: It’s why he wrote chunks of Messiah and CoD before Dune.

It’s also why in Omni he expresses caution in environmentalist movements.

His work is “Liberal” but in the classic 1700s sense of high-degrees of individuality and freedom. I doubt he would’ve been comfortable with cancelation and shutdown of discourse on campus’

I’m not sure how he would’ve felt about misinformation at scale.

Probably not, though frankly the idea that "cancellation" is actually something new is silly. It's been around forever. "Shutdown of discourse on campus" is.. not a thing?

Once again, the point of Paul was a deconstruction. Whether you call him a hero is beside the point. My entire point is far righters LOVE Paul and don't realize he's a deconstruction or even think a single thing he did is bad. That's what Messiah is meant to underline fully, that Paul is a bad person, that "hero worship" and "admiration" are dangerous, and that the Jihad is the ultimate consequence. It's a warning. No, I'm not mapping onto modern causes. His sexism is still pretty apparent in his books with his notion that women are "inherently giving" and men are "inherently taking".

 

[johanpmeert]

I have to say I'm rather disappointed in the whole Dune remake. Outside of some nice graphics the movies did nothing for me. Unlike most I found both the acting performance and the storytelling to be mediocre. The 1984 original movie is better in almost every way.

 

[Papewaio]

Arrival was the prototype for everything I can't stand about Villenueve's sci-fi movies before Dune 2. The problem with Arrival was that the whole thing felt devoid of any real humanity. Just cold and lifeless. I bet most people don't even remember Jeremy Renner was in it. Because like everybody else his character was just...nothing. Then there's the problem of the twist that was 'too' clever by half and felt completely forced because it didn't tie in to the central premise of the movie. That being Aliens arriving on Earth.

Then the same cold and lifeless issue reared its head again with Blade Runner 2049. With even ANOTHER forced twist that turned out not to be a twist but still succeeded in being so meta as to take me out of the movie. That being the twist of the detective (gasp!) investigating himself.

Just tell the story and stop trying to be clever ffs.

None of those were that clever. Not by half. And the idea that the detective in Blade Runner 2049 would be investigating himself is a direct outcome of Blade Runner. It's almost like you didn't watch the, I would say original, but any of the directors cuts.

Arrival was slow paced, hardly a twist involved and pretty formulaic. Visually pleasing and interesting sound scape. But plot twist? Really.

 

[cerata]

Its' going to require a ton of changes as any book reader knows. I think the general weirdness of the Bijaz Distrans, Tleilaxu Face Dancers and a lot of the conspiracy players will sidelined for a more streamlined adversary.

Are the Face-Dancers especially weird in 2024? I don't know if shapeshifters were already a common SF/fantasy trope in the '60s, but I'd guess they're better-known now, after shows like Deep Space 9 and Game of Thrones, or films like Terminator 2 and the recent Marvel movies featuring the Skrulls.

I think the same is true for the Bene Tleilax in general. Dune: Messiah was released in 1969. That's roughly halfway between the first IVF mammal (1959) and first IVF human (1969), and nearly 3 decades before the first mammal cloned from an adult somatic cell (1996). Heck, it's not even two decades after the Hershey-Chase experiments (1952) confirmed that DNA, not protein, carries genetic information. Now think of all the mass-media that's come out since then, from Gattaca and The Matrix to The Handmaid's Tale.

Though I'd expect them to leave out the distrans, and the special language the conspirators use.

 

[truth serum]

Probably not, though frankly the idea that "cancellation" is actually something new is silly. It's been around forever. "Shutdown of discourse on campus" is.. not a thing?

Once again, the point of Paul was a deconstruction. Whether you call him a hero is beside the point. My entire point is far righters LOVE Paul and don't realize he's a deconstruction or even think a single thing he did is bad. That's what Messiah is meant to underline fully, that Paul is a bad person, that "hero worship" and "admiration" are dangerous, and that the Jihad is the ultimate consequence. It's a warning. No, I'm not mapping onto modern causes. His sexism is still pretty apparent in his books with his notion that women are "inherently giving" and men are "inherently taking".

Paul isn't a deconstructionist cautionary tale yet in the movies. What you are describing is only in the books. A giant rug pull so to speak. Right now in the movies he is still on the hero's journey more or less. Which is why a lot of people perceive his character as still somewhat admirable. They haven't gotten to the rug pull yet.

(note* I haven't read this series but I am vaguely aware of the direction the lore goes and this is where we are at in the movies.)

 

[PTNLemay]

Of all of the FH Dune books, Messiah contains, for me, the greatest action set piece of all. The Stone Burner scene is going to be absolutely incredible in the hands of Denis' given his vision for scale. My only concern is that Paul's oracular vision will be simplified too much, given how subdued the water of life scene in Part Two was.

Yeah I think it will have plenty of action to work with. Especially if he sticks to one movie and doesn't do another 2 parter. He can lean in on veteran's affairs. That's topical and a big part of the book.

Spoiler

How some of the Fremen have lost faith in the whole thing because so many of them have been fighting and dying and come back home just to slowly die in a hole somewhere.

Then sprinkle on the rest of the espionage and subterfuge, you've got a big chunky story to work with.

 

[MNP]

I think it's kind of funny, I think it's kind of sad, that just like the original book way too many people actually admire Paul and think he's a "great hero". Hopefully Messiah will make it absolutely clear that Dune has "always been woke".

The movie is sort of structured that way though isn't it? (Even though logically with control of the spice he doesn't actually have to jihad the houses).

 

[RickRoyLeonPrisZhoraRacha]

There was a brief moment about a year ago when he was supposed to direct a Rendezvous with Rama adaptation. Now I have been waiting for an adaptation of this since I read it in school, for decades now, and it’s been a rollercoaster: Morgan Freeman bought the rights and promised an adaptation in the early 2010s. David Fincher was set to direct it for a while. Then it was canned.

Anyway what I’m saying is that I fucking DESERVE this movie. Everything else needs to get in line.

Sadly, Morgan is in poor health (effects of fibromyalgia) and doubtful he would get to play Norton, Commander of the Endeavor. But who knows...
There are many science-fictions shorts, novellas and novels that I would like to see made. Ringworld (Halo loosely based on), Mote in God's eye, ... from Asimov, Heinlein, Pournelle, ... to name a few.

 

[truth serum]

It's interesting reading the complaints people have with D2, and it appears the main one is it felt rushed.

I actually agree with this criticism, but I feel like it comes from Villeneuve really not wanting to leave anything out. He obviously loves the book so much he was loath to cut anything from it

As a HUGE fan of the 6 book series (hate the sons stuff), I can understand Villeneuve's approach. He really crammed in as much as he could. Some interesting changes in reference to Chani. A few other things, but while I agree it feels too "full", I really loved it. I just loved seeing that universe so brilliantly shown, without too much editorialising, or straight out silliness like Lynch's

I'm sad that people had a bad time, because I loved it, and I'm glad Villeneuve will get a chance to finish the story, as tragic as it is.

After Dune Part 1 came out everybody was saying "wait until Part 2 before making a final decision."

Now I'm a huge fan of Dune 84', I didn't really care for Dune Part 1, but I really liked Dune Part 2. Although I need to see it again to see how it truly holds up. (Part 1 didn't get any better the second time but Dune 84' is an admittedly acquired taste that gets better over time.)

However after seeing both Dune Part 1 and Part 2 I can now feel reasonably confident in saying I have solid grasp for what Villeneuve was going for. Which is that he made the creative choice to not focus on worldbuilding, like at all. And to instead only focus on things that pertain directly to Paul's story. If it doesn't have a direct effect on Paul's story it's out and ruthlessly left on the cutting room floor. Thufir Hawat being left out of Part 2 is a perfect example of this.

And to be perfectly honest he wasn't really missed in Part 2 because the uniqueness of his character, that of being a human super computer was never really touched on or fleshed out in Part 1. And this is no knock on the guy playing him but other than rolling his eyes back once he was just a guy. Not a uniquely memorable character like John Huston in Dune 84'.

So with the 20/20 hindsight of seeing both Parts 1&2 this now all makes sense. Because Denis made the creative decision to not focus on worldbuilding and instead only focus on that which directly pertains to the character of Paul Atreides. Now whether or not that is the best creative choice is debatable, but it is a creative choice nonetheless.

 

[EnPeaSea]

ya know..... 12 Angry Men was a revelation in storytelling to 14-year-old me

it's possible to do a lot of quality story telling locked into one room

just, please, no Saw....

How about one episode per season of Community?

I kept waiting for Walken to ask for "More Cowbell!"

"You talk to my boy like that again and I'll stab you in the face... with a crysknife!"

 

[DMI_Tech]

Dune Messiah is a very, very different book from the first one, and I hope they take their time. Messiah is more more introspective and internal. It's more like a political drama locked into one room. I'm exaggerating, but not by much. If Dune (the book) was hard to adapt to film, Dune Messiah will be excrutiating to adapt. That said, after these two films I have high hopes.

You're not wrong.
I just listened to it on Audible. I was a little surprised how much shorter it felt compared to the first book, and yet, there was a lot going on.

 

[E.Murphy]

With the changes made to the original story, I can see a new direction for the plot where Chani breaks off and forms a rebel faction, but is secretly pregnant with Paul's twins. Fast forward 15 years and Jessica and Alia form a faction pushing Paul toward Galactic domination, where Chani and her children push for Fremen independence. Irulan would be trying to play both factions against each other to gain a lever for the Bene Gesserit to use against Paul and possibly get Paul or Jessica to unknowingly eliminate his children in the process. Many of the plot elements of Messiah could move forward with this scenario, but with more agency given to Paul and Chani trying to find the right path to move forward.

This even leaves a path toward Children of Dune, but Aunt Alia and the twins would be much closer in age and have more reason to be at odds.

 

[brionl]

I think it's kind of funny, I think it's kind of sad, that just like the original book way too many people actually admire Paul and think he's a "great hero". Hopefully Messiah will make it absolutely clear that Dune has "always been woke".

I admire Paul for what he tried to do in stopping the Jihad.
But, as well all know, once the avalanche has started it is too late for the pebbles to vote. I guess especially if you are the trigger pebble.

 

[THT]

I admire Paul for what he tried to do in stopping the Jihad.
But, as well all know, once the avalanche has started it is too late for the pebbles to vote. I guess especially if you are the trigger pebble.

In response to Dark Jaguar as well, Paul is believed to be the hero because Frank Herbert wrote it that way. All the tropes are there for readers of the 1st Dune book and watchers of the videos. There should be zero blame on people who say Paul is the hero if all they have read is the 1st Dune book or the videos based on the 1st book.

House Atriedes is backstabbed or setup by the emperor and the Bene Gesserit. The house was meant to be extinguished through less than honorable means. The Harkonnens are portrayed as psychopaths, murdering at will. The Bene Gesserits are a manipulative society who partook in both the planning for House Atriedes' execution and the Lisan-al-Giab religion. The Fremen are an oppressed people suffering under the galactic empire's desire for spice.

Dune is a story of "justice" for Paul, his House both Atriedes and Fremen. People aren't going to pick up on some jihad in Paul's visions as bad. Even so, Herbert had Paul rationalized it away just like you are by saying the jihad was inevitable, whatever path he took.

The jihad is entirely Paul's fault. Full stop. For the galactic jihad to actually happen, the Fremen needed guild navigators to transport them to different worlds. The guild navigators are doing the transporting at Paul's bidding because they believe Paul will blow up the spice fields and stop the flow of spice.

The super human spice-addicted peoples like Paul, Bene Gesserits, and the Guild navigators are space-time prescient. They all must "see" that Paul will absolutely blow up the spice if they don't do what Paul says. No bluffing.

How's does Paul stop the jihad? Just tell the Guild navigators not to transport his Fremen or anyone partaking in jihad. It was his and his decision alone to do the jihad.

But for readers of the first book? Or videos of the movies? None of this is made explicit. It's just visions, but ones where Paul is repulsed by, not wanting it. In order for the jihad to happen, he had to want it, and Frank Herbert didn't write it that way in the first book.

 

[Bolivar diGriz]

People keep referring to Paul as a "hero". He's not - he's a Messiah. There's a big difference between the two. A hero is generally someone who comes along and solves some sort of problem, making life a little better for all concerned. A Messiah is someone who shakes things up, makes the world a little more chaotic, and gives believers a good moral basis upon which to justify murdering their neighbors.

As to the lack of understanding of the Golden Path and Fremen spreading jihad throughout the galaxy: it is made quite clear that Paul sees the Golden Path as a tightrope that humanity needs to walk in order to avoid eventual extinction. He isn't exactly happy about putting everybody on this path but recognizes the necessity. Yes, billions of people will die. But without it, everybody dies.

I would also venture that to a person seeing timelines extending thousands of years into the future, from their perspective everybody dies sometime. You wouldn't want to get too attached to individuals... You see that even more explicitly in GEofD, where Emperor Leto rather than seeing thousands of years into the future instead has thousands of years of memories and can no longer see people, just pieces to be moved around the board. Paul never gets to that point, hence his mindset in Dune Messiah.

 

[Ten Wind]

In response to Dark Jaguar as well, Paul is believed to be the hero because Frank Herbert wrote it that way. All the tropes are there for readers of the 1st Dune book and watchers of the videos. There should be zero blame on people who say Paul is the hero if all they have read is the 1st Dune book or the videos based on the 1st book.

House Atriedes is backstabbed or setup by the emperor and the Bene Gesserit. The house was meant to be extinguished through less than honorable means. The Harkonnens are portrayed as psychopaths, murdering at will. The Bene Gesserits are a manipulative society who partook in both the planning for House Atriedes' execution and the Lisan-al-Giab religion. The Fremen are an oppressed people suffering under the galactic empire's desire for spice.

Dune is a story of "justice" for Paul, his House both Atriedes and Fremen. People aren't going to pick up on some jihad in Paul's visions as bad. Even so, Herbert had Paul rationalized it away just like you are by saying the jihad was inevitable, whatever path he took.

The jihad is entirely Paul's fault. Full stop. For the galactic jihad to actually happen, the Fremen needed guild navigators to transport them to different worlds. The guild navigators are doing the transporting at Paul's bidding because they believe Paul will blow up the spice fields and stop the flow of spice.

The super human spice-addicted peoples like Paul, Bene Gesserits, and the Guild navigators are space-time prescient. They all must "see" that Paul will absolutely blow up the spice if they don't do what Paul says. No bluffing.

How's does Paul stop the jihad? Just tell the Guild navigators not to transport his Fremen or anyone partaking in jihad. It was his and his decision alone to do the jihad.

But for readers of the first book? Or videos of the movies? None of this is made explicit. It's just visions, but ones where Paul is repulsed by, not wanting it. In order for the jihad to happen, he had to want it, and Frank Herbert didn't write it that way in the first book.

The Fremen are just as capable as Paul of carrying out the chain reaction that will destroy spice forever. Since the Jihad proceeds with or without Paul after that critical juncture of the night in the desert has passed, it's clear that they will follow through as well as he would. If Paul tells the Spacing Guild not to transport the Fremen, well then he is not the Lisan al Gaib. The Fremen are carrying out their Jihad with or without him. Without him, he believes it will be much worse, and we have little reason to doubt that belief.

 

[brionl]

The Fremen are just as capable as Paul of carrying out the chain reaction that will destroy spice forever. Since the Jihad proceeds with or without Paul after that critical juncture of the night in the desert has passed, it's clear that they will follow through as well as he would. If Paul tells the Spacing Guild not to transport the Fremen, well then he is not the Lisan al Gaib. The Fremen are carrying out their Jihad with or without him. Without him, he believes it will be much worse, and we have little reason to doubt that belief.

Right, the choices are:
1) A Jihad that he leads
B) A worse Jihad w/o him
III) The Golden Path

 

[TonyJ588]

I know I'm in the minority but I didn't like the second movie. Skipped over way too much shit. I understand a lot of it was back ground politics but It lays the foundation for what lies ahead. Not impressed.

 

[LucretiusNaturale]

Another option... the next film is an original script not based on Messiah and takes place soon after or several years after Dune 2 film. And the ending could set the stage for Messiah with most of the core general strands in place to support the Messiah book and later film. This would give much more creative freedom as long as it ties in well into Messiah.

Could also have some flashbacks to past to fill in any important politics/events in first book (not in first 2 films) that is carried into 3rd film. And can align Paul's mother and Chani back to the Messiah storylines. The timeline they choose would also depend on how much they want to explore the sister... not much if say 2-3 years old or establish more background story if say 10 years old.

Would also like to see the manipulations and mystique of Bene Gesserit explored more deeply with some opportunity to do some creative things with The Voice.

 

[ralphnobody]

Right, the choices are:
1) A Jihad that he leads
B) A worse Jihad w/o him
III) The Golden Path

It’s genuinely unclear whether Paul only saw portions of the Golden Path; or if he saw why it was necessary and balked anyway.

We do know that Paul admitted to not seeing Krazilac.

Regardless, Paul wasn’t in full control and couldn’t be in full control which gets Frank Herbert’s point across: Avoid hero worship.

 

[THT]

The Fremen are just as capable as Paul of carrying out the chain reaction that will destroy spice forever. Since the Jihad proceeds with or without Paul after that critical juncture of the night in the desert has passed, it's clear that they will follow through as well as he would. If Paul tells the Spacing Guild not to transport the Fremen, well then he is not the Lisan al Gaib. The Fremen are carrying out their Jihad with or without him. Without him, he believes it will be much worse, and we have little reason to doubt that belief.

This would just be an arbitrary narrative choice, no? That the Fremen can conduct a Jihad without Paul, and are able to take over the Atriedes family atomic weapons so that they have the proper leverage against the spacing guild?

I didn't get that this was possible from reading the books or the movies. Paul is their Messiah and military leader. The atomic weapons are his. He is the only one with the psychopathy to nuke Arrakis. If he decides he doesn't want the jihad to happen, he takes back has nukes, and just says no.

There would be a civil war among Fremen: those who are with Paul and those who are against Paul. That typically means they both lose when there is an armarda of colonizers on top of them.

 

[THT]

Right, the choices are:
1) A Jihad that he leads
B) A worse Jihad w/o him
III) The Golden Path

Choice 1 and III are the same choice, right?

Then, choice B could go the other way, the jihad is less damaging w/o him. It's narratively declared to be worse without him, but Herbert knew the game he set up and having absolute prescience meant there really isn't a story. There must be things the Kwisach Haderach cannot see. So, will it really be worse?

The Golden Path is a logistical conundrum for Herbert or perhaps for the viewpoint that we should be careful about following messianic or charismatic leaders.

The Golden Path is basically long termism effective altruism, whatever it is called. It redeems both Paul's and Leto II despotic actions because they were doing it for the long term survival of humanity.

With their space-time prescience, depicted as "for real" seeing into both the past and future, all the possible outcomes of future, not just some dudes who are really good at playing out everyone's actions. So, they were doing everything they thought was right, to guarantee humanity's survival. There was no other way. In the end, the heroes?

Seems to conflict with the message of not trusting messiah figures in Dune.

 

[Ten Wind]

This would just be an arbitrary narrative choice, no? That the Fremen can conduct a Jihad without Paul, and are able to take over the Atriedes family atomic weapons so that they have the proper leverage against the spacing guild?

I didn't get that this was possible from reading the books or the movies. Paul is their Messiah and military leader. The atomic weapons are his. He is the only one with the psychopathy to nuke Arrakis. If he decides he doesn't want the jihad to happen, he takes back has nukes, and just says no.

There would be a civil war among Fremen: those who are with Paul and those who are against Paul. That typically means they both lose when there is an armarda of colonizers on top of them.

I think you're confused? The atomics were used to break the shield wall, to make the attack on the emperors forces significantly simpler due to the surprise of the sandworms. Without the atomics the Fremen could still win that battle, but it would be harder fought.

The atomics had nothing to do with the spice at all, the destruction of the spice was to be accomplished with a chain reaction catalyzed by a large quantity of water above a pre-spice mass. The Fremen are willing, Paul can't do it alone, the only way the threat could be carried out is by Fremen action.

"The Water of Death," he said. "It'd be a chain reaction." He pointed to the floor. "Spreading death among the little makers, killing a vector of the life cycle that includes the spice and the makers. Arrakis will become a true desolation -- without spice or maker."

The Fremen had both the needed water and the capability to carry out the threat. It was from them that Paul got the idea. When Paul mentions water and a pre-spice mass, Jessica sees the idea immediately.

Aside from this, Fremen society is governed through trial by combat. It wouldn't be civil war. Liet-Kynes was naib of naibs and they all more or less followed his vision. With Paul's death, it would fall to the next most capable in single combat, or those who dared to make the challenge anyways.

Aside from this, it's quite clear that Paul sees no way to prevent the Fremen's Jihad in the end. If it had been as simple as saying no, then he'd have done so. But the Fremen are the most powerful faction in the known universe, and have a singular vision of a green Arrakis. They follow Paul because he's leading them towards that vision, but if he stops... They won't abandon it.

 

[brionl]

The atomics had nothing to do with the spice at all, the destruction of the spice was to be accomplished with a chain reaction catalyzed by a large quantity of water above a pre-spice mass. The Fremen are willing, Paul can't do it alone, the only way the threat could be carried out is by Fremen action.

In the movie, they left out that part, and just used the threat of the nuking the spice fields.

 

[Ten Wind]

In the movie, they left out that part, and just used the threat of the nuking the spice fields.

Oh okay, I never saw the second one and I thought they were talking about the book. Yeah, in that case it seems to make less sense.

I suppose the Fremen could just make spice harvesting completely untenable by slaughtering anyone who tries, but that'd probably see the Landsraad unite against them, and I don't think even the Fremen can take on their combined might even if they're singularly more dangerous.

 

[THT]

Oh okay, I never saw the second one and I thought they were talking about the book. Yeah, in that case it seems to make less sense.

I suppose the Fremen could just make spice harvesting completely untenable by slaughtering anyone who tries, but that'd probably see the Landsraad unite against them, and I don't think even the Fremen can take on their combined might even if they're singularly more dangerous.

Heck, I get confused between the book, the movies and the TV series all the time. Wouldn’t be surprised I mixed it all up.

In Dune part 2 movie, the Atriedes atomics were locked in a mesa, almost Airwolf style, with the access door coded to Atriedes genetics. Only Paul could open up the vault. This implied to me that Paul had absolute control of them, no matter where they were.

I can’t quite recall the one phrase they had about having no satellites around Arrakis in the movie. The Emperor ordered it? In the book, the Fremen bribed the spacing guild to get rid of the satellites, right?

If the spacing guild is actively at war with the Fremen, the Fremen are toast. Air power trumps ground power. In the movie, Sietch Tabr was pummeled by aerial bombardment, destroyed and depopulated. With air power, it nullifies sand riding. With satellites, everything can be tracked. The Fremen will be eliminated. (And the sandworm invasion scene in the movie which was done in clear skies, well, they should have been lasered from orbit.)

I digress there. If the Fremen go against Paul’s wishes, and he is eliminated, and they have the means to destroy spice, it boils down to mutually assured destruction.

Doesn’t this mean whoever new Fremen leader who makes this decision is knowingly destroying their god (the worms) and the Fremen itself? Someone who grew up worshipping Shai-Hulud? They would be destroying the very thing they are.

I think the Bene Gesserit and Spacing Guild will think that is a bluff coming from a native Fremen. It takes a special kind of narcissistic psychopath to do that. Someone that the Bene Gesserit seem especially adept at creating.

Alternative reality: Feyd Ruatha is the Kwisach Haderach. Or Count Fenring?

 

[Coolman13355]

Agreed on both statements - and the second Sicario was made without Villeneuve (in case that was not clear).

I missed that there was a 2nd one, but I knew almost immediately DV couldn't have directed it. I've looked up is IMDB credits several times. A 2nd Sicario would've caught my attention.

 

[Coolman13355]

Paul isn't a deconstructionist cautionary tale yet in the movies. What you are describing is only in the books. A giant rug pull so to speak. Right now in the movies he is still on the hero's journey more or less. Which is why a lot of people perceive his character as still somewhat admirable. They haven't gotten to the rug pull yet.

(note* I haven't read this series but I am vaguely aware of the direction the lore goes and this is where we are at in the movies.)

I'd say it's at least hinted at in part 1 and by the end of part 2 things are in motion. His mom has definitely gone off the rails in part 2, but that's somewhat disconnected from his cloud of darkness.

 

[Coolman13355]

I admire Paul for what he tried to do in stopping the Jihad.
But, as well all know, once the avalanche has started it is too late for the pebbles to vote. I guess especially if you are the trigger pebble.

Now I'm trying to imagine Kosh in the Dune universe.

 

[jsully2549]

No, the Baron was just a skilled manipulater as Paul.

Doesn't preclude the cartoon villainy.

Grossly fat, homosexual, pedophile, sadist, ....

Loads of '60s 'evil' tropes were layered onto him. Overdone, to me.

 

[Dark Jaguar]

Doesn't preclude the cartoon villainy.

Grossly fat, homosexual, pedophile, sadist, ....

Loads of '60s 'evil' tropes were layered onto him. Overdone, to me.

Leaving aside the homosexuality (and heavy sexism, not to mention the "genetic memory" and "lines that can be expected to behave a certain way" stuff in his book, cartoonishly evil people actually DO exist here in the really real world. The past 8 years should have taught you that.