Why is the Ars community so negative towards Bitcoin?

Status
Not open for further replies.

HappyBunny

Ars Legatus Legionis
13,232
Subscriptor
I am not too familiar with Bitcoin ATMs, but from a quick search it seems like they can have quite high fees. So I'm not sure it would actually be more effective than other options. But setting that aside for a moment:
I wonder if there's a way to separate the useful features and turn them into standalone services. Innovation can often start with impracticable products that eventually mature into something useful. (Local versions of Venmo in various Super Apps solve some of the local payment issues, but may not have easy ways to transfer money from outside the country. May be regulation or simply not worth the cost of developing the feature.)

I expect that if you try to turn that into a legitimate international money transfer system you will immediately run into the reason that's hard in the first place: sending tokens to arbitrary places around the world is easy, but as soon as you try to interact with the real financial system governments make all kinds of demands to catch money laundering and other criminal activity.

This relates to some of the earlier points: a lot of what people tout as "advantages" of Bitcoin are due to it skirting financial services regulation. Which is 1) probably a temporary state, as governments are seeing what a disaster the crypto ecosystem is, and 2) not exactly a ringing endorsement, since many of those regulations exist for very good reasons.

I've seen those things in the weirdest locations, suggesting they meet some demand.

The cynic in me says that it's a huge assumption to think that seeing bitcoin ATMs means there's a real demand being met there.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BurntToShreds

demultiplexer

Ars Praefectus
5,041
Subscriptor
I'm curious if people (particularly demultiplexer) think there is some value in Bitcoin for remittances. If you are connected to the financial system, it's easy and cheap to go to IBKR and convert a million USD to EUR in seconds and with just a few dollars in fees. But try to send $200 from the US to Indonesia, especially to someone without a bank account, and your most appealing option might be WesternUnion. Now you're getting screwed on (partially hidden) fees and may face lengthy delays. That's also assuming the recipient has a postal address and ID card, which is often not the case in developing countries.

On the other hand, you can go to a Bitcoin ATM, convert cash into BTC, send it to the recipient, and they can cash out from another ATM. I've seen those things in the weirdest locations, suggesting they meet some demand. It's obviously not BTC's main purpose, but I wonder if there's a way to separate the useful features and turn them into standalone services. Innovation can often start with impracticable products that eventually mature into something useful. (Local versions of Venmo in various Super Apps solve some of the local payment issues, but may not have easy ways to transfer money from outside the country. May be regulation or simply not worth the cost of developing the feature.)
Since I'm named specifically: no, but not necessarily because crypto is bad for it. Theoretically, remittances going to countries that have weak institutions and corrupt financial systems are a way to empower people to develop legitimate economic activity.

But... it should first be noted that this is a very US-centric problem. The USA has a very broken banking system that causes remittances to be a hassle*. If you're in a country with no-citizen banking (i.e. you can open a checking account without needing to provide local identification) and you're within the IBAN system, remittances are free and sorted. IBAN/SWIFT is working on providing this for most countries, and e.g. the example of Indonesia is a specific US<->Indonesia problem, not, e.g., a Netherlands<->Indonesia problem. The solution to all of this is to fix banking with systems that are already in place, not to build a separate system that has much, much more to be figured out before it can be reliably used.

Because as we see with El Salvador, the risks of crypto are way too vast. It's a socially disruptive, very unequal way of doing financial transactions. Worse than traditional banking, crypto is designed inherently to massively benefit those at the top at the expense of the smallest transactions, to the point that by wallet number, the gini coefficient of the bitcoin ecosystem is by far the worst of any currency.

As said before: financial transactions themselves, the actual data being sent around the world, isn't the technical problem to be solved. Banks already transfer your money from the US to Indonesia in much less than a second. You need all the other ecoutrements of financial regulation and systems integration to make banking work, and that's a social and/or political problem much more than a technical one.

* also it should be REALLY noted that this whole remittance issue is also a tax and immigration problem. People using WU or other international cash-heavy transfer systems are probably not paying taxes or properly registered in the country they're transferring from. Their employers are also probably not paying tax on their labor. In exchange for these discounts, they have to go through expensive services that essentially take the hit for any shady transfers at a very high price. Because that's what's going on - WU isn't charging 20% fees because they're greedy, they're charging that because 20% of their transfers are fucked and have to be debt financed. It's a kind of money laundering in that way.
 

uno2tres

Ars Scholae Palatinae
1,114
Subscriptor
There’s definitely demand for bitcoin ATMs:
https://www.metrowestdailynews.com/...ncoln-massachusetts-elderly-woman/7566908001/
SUDBURY — Earlier this month, police say an elderly woman withdrew $30,000 from her bank account and headed to a Bitcoin ATM in Sudbury.

Police say they learned the woman, from Lincoln, was being directed by someone who claimed to be from Microsoft's support team, who was on the phone with her providing instructions.

However, Sudbury police said, the woman was being scammed — the person on the phone was not a Microsoft employee.
From a cursory search, it looks like bitcoin ATMs typically charge around 10% in fees, so they don’t need a massive volume of transactions to become profitable off phone scams or ransomware.
 

Megalodon

Ars Legatus Legionis
36,693
Subscriptor
I'm curious if people (particularly demultiplexer) think there is some value in Bitcoin for remittances. If you are connected to the financial system, it's easy and cheap to go to IBKR and convert a million USD to EUR in seconds and with just a few dollars in fees. But try to send $200 from the US to Indonesia, especially to someone without a bank account, and your most appealing option might be WesternUnion. Now you're getting screwed on (partially hidden) fees and may face lengthy delays. That's also assuming the recipient has a postal address and ID card, which is often not the case in developing countries.

On the other hand, you can go to a Bitcoin ATM, convert cash into BTC, send it to the recipient, and they can cash out from another ATM.

Couple problems with this. First, bitcoin also has fees and they can be extreme. Second, what assurance is there that the exchange used to mediate this transaction remains solvent over the course of the transaction? There's a LOT of pitfalls here.

I've seen those things in the weirdest locations, suggesting they meet some demand.

I very strongly suspect their primary function is to enhance the perceived legitimacy of bitcoin.
 

Sunner

Ars Praefectus
4,847
Subscriptor++
My favorite real-world example is the guy who bought a pizza with Bitcoin:
Funny thing, back when BTC was relatively new I actually bought a little bit of it, partly for shits and giggles and partly because I work in the IT part of finance so I just figured I'd check it out, out of professional curiosity if nothing else. I don't recall when this was but I got myself a few BTC at least and as I recall I spent the equivalent of €100 on them. I thought it was kinda neat but also kinda uselsss so I fairly promptly stopped caring and forgot about it. Fast forward a few years and I realize I still have those coins and they're now actually worth money, I figure that shit is way too useless to keep increasing so I sell the fucking things and get a reasonable chunk of change, nothing life altering or anything but north of €1,000 as I recall, so that felt like a real win.
Turns out I underestimated human stupidity seeing as those coins would have been worth 6 figures of euros later on.

Not too long ago I even got a mail from Coinbase regarding my long abandoned account, apparently they needed a bunch more information about me for regulatory purposes. I had some miniscule fraction of a BTC left in my account, I really couldn't be bothered so I just deleted the whole thing instead.

Not sure OP needs more answers than those already given, nor am I sure they actually care, but the short and sweet is that it's fucking useless and wasteful. Unless you're a scammer or some other kind of criminal, in which case I guess it's kinda neat.
 

Dayvid

Ars Scholae Palatinae
1,102
I'm curious if people (particularly demultiplexer) think there is some value in Bitcoin for remittances. If you are connected to the financial system, it's easy and cheap to go to IBKR and convert a million USD to EUR in seconds and with just a few dollars in fees. But try to send $200 from the US to Indonesia, especially to someone without a bank account, and your most appealing option might be WesternUnion. Now you're getting screwed on (partially hidden) fees and may face lengthy delays. That's also assuming the recipient has a postal address and ID card, which is often not the case in developing countries.

On the other hand, you can go to a Bitcoin ATM, convert cash into BTC, send it to the recipient, and they can cash out from another ATM. I've seen those things in the weirdest locations, suggesting they meet some demand. It's obviously not BTC's main purpose, but I wonder if there's a way to separate the useful features and turn them into standalone services. Innovation can often start with impracticable products that eventually mature into something useful. (Local versions of Venmo in various Super Apps solve some of the local payment issues, but may not have easy ways to transfer money from outside the country. May be regulation or simply not worth the cost of developing the feature.)

Maybe for a period but clearly no at some point, and you're taking major risks.

There is arguably something here right now in certain cases, but the reasons for that are not technical - cryptocurrencies aren't doing anything better per se (particularly when what you want at the other end is not bitcoin, but a spendable government currency), it's because there's a lot of well meaning but onerous regulation (KYC/AML/PEPs/sanctions etc) that the crypto space has been largely ignoring and regulators have only started to come down on - the actual technical transaction is rarely the real problem. Turns out if you just ignore all the existing rules you can do stuff faster.

The problem is this will not be able to continue forever - governments are slow but do tend to try to enforce their laws (eg $100k transaction minimums appearing recently are likely due to certain banks getting some very awkward questions) and when that changes this is at best going to look a whole lot like the existing mess... but with a blockchain!

The other risk I'd mention is assuming you can continue to exchange any particular crypto for a predictable amount of real money. I mention this because there's a lot of really obvious price manipulation and trading volume vs actual money is likely very very thin. That and all the fraud.
 

ramases

Ars Tribunus Angusticlavius
8,683
Subscriptor++
I'm curious if people (particularly demultiplexer) think there is some value in Bitcoin for remittances. If you are connected to the financial system, it's easy and cheap to go to IBKR and convert a million USD to EUR in seconds and with just a few dollars in fees. But try to send $200 from the US to Indonesia, especially to someone without a bank account, and your most appealing option might be WesternUnion. Now you're getting screwed on (partially hidden) fees and may face lengthy delays. That's also assuming the recipient has a postal address and ID card, which is often not the case in developing countries.

On the other hand, you can go to a Bitcoin ATM, convert cash into BTC, send it to the recipient, and they can cash out from another ATM. I've seen those things in the weirdest locations, suggesting they meet some demand. It's obviously not BTC's main purpose, but I wonder if there's a way to separate the useful features and turn them into standalone services. Innovation can often start with impracticable products that eventually mature into something useful. (Local versions of Venmo in various Super Apps solve some of the local payment issues, but may not have easy ways to transfer money from outside the country. May be regulation or simply not worth the cost of developing the feature.)

I will answer this question from the perspective of remittances into countries into less well developed countries, not remittances within the "tightly connected financial world", because (with the possible exemption that's the fuckery also known as 'US retail banking') superior solutions exist therein: For example within SEPA interbank transfers connected with a legal entitlement to a basic bank account allows zero-fee transfers that settle within one business day.

When Covid hit some friends and I organized an ad-hoc charitable giving ring leveraged through personal contacts we made over years (in some cases decades) travelling the less-travelled roads of the world. We distributed a total of five-digit sum through it, to which I personally contributed thousands of Euros, to every continent except Antarctica.

So yes, we did have a look at various ways to remit money to underbanked economies, both from a reliability perspective and a costs-of-remittance perspective. The result unequivocally was that the usual players in the remittance market were both cheaper than BTC, more reliable than BTC, and with a verified sender in good standing some of them can execute sub-hour transfers.

Price-wise you have to keep in mind that if you use BTC as a transfer medium for fiat, unless you want to tie the transfer directly to a specific crypto/fiat conversion provider receiver-side (which is a trust issue, and if you do that you might as well use other solutions), you have to eat the tx fee at least two times: One time for the transfer to the recipient, and one time for the transfer between the recipient's wallet and the fiat intermediary. Depending on how crypto is procured at the source you may need to pay a third transfer too.

Those fees are high, and one of the implications of how blockchains work must remain high due to thread model concerns[0]. Even if those fees were not high, a receiver-side fiat intermediary has risks that need to be paid for, increasing the spread they will charge. A lot of that risk is irreducible and unrelated to BTC, because to any sort of remittance provider has to have access to a certain amount of fiat currency receiver-side, otherwise they simply cannot do their job, but that's also risky due to their local security situation.

In total BTC was more expensive than Western Union (!!), even if you factor in the absolute roger-me-senseless aspect of conversion rates (forget the WU tx fee, except for nominal amounts it is secondary to how they take you to the cleaners with currency conversion). This is true even for countries where BTC ATMs exist, for example Athena in Colombia or Brazil.

Reliability-wise I have to sadly say I now know why WU can charge the fees it charges. It is, without a doubt, one of the most straightforward-to-work-through intermediaries. BTC ATMs were sometimes broken, and if you instead work through local independent operators (there sometimes are people that sell/buy BTC on the side) you must deal with a) can you trust them?, b) do you want to have anything to do with them?, and c) you might need to wait until they have their own buyers for BTC to actually convert them.

There's also the thing that by necessity with any remittance you will need to trust the receiver-side agent to act honestly, which is complicated by the fact that people relying on receiving remittance often have only very limited ability themselves to compel that honesty.

With actors like WU and Remitly you have the advantage that instead the sender can compel honesty, because they have a contractual relationship (if the local BTC ATM turns out to be a scammer, what do you do as a sender? nothing) with an entity whose self-interest is to maintain their image as reliable agents, and who can come down on local partners getting funny ideas.

You may not like the type of infuence this gives those actors over local conditions, but the fact remains that one of the big providers threatening to close a local partner over malfesance can convince local authority, such as it is, to take action even if they would normally be uninterested. Frankly I don't like that circumstance, but the solution to those problems must necessarily come from something else than BTC.

Time-wise, KYC regs at established places can also have advantages, namely that with accounts in good standing and typical remittance amounts some providers can issue sub-hour to-cash transfers, sometimes even below single block timers.

The lack of official ID on part of the receiver can be a problem, true, but funnily enough sorting that problem out reduces to the same issue as having to find a trustworthy local crypto/fiat intermediary.

So, to recap the without doubt biggest problem to remittances are the local conditions receiver-side, and BTC offers no perspective of resolving those problems in a way that could not also be done without crypto. The same is true for every other aspect of remittances. At the same time BTC creates additional new extra problems, and due to issues inherent in blockchain thread models also fails to compete on price.

[0] Because the integrity of the chain depends on continouous mining the cost required to effect a compromise must exceed the value derivable from a compromise. Since in a transfer network the value of a compromise is a function of the amount of value transferred over a given time frame the whole idea of "reduce mining costs to reduce tx costs so we can have more tx value" is either an outright pipe-dream (proof of work) or will at best reproduce classical banking structures or at worst rentier oligarchy (proof of stake).
 
Last edited:

wireframed

Ars Legatus Legionis
17,278
Subscriptor
I agree with most of what has been written. Bitcoin doesn't solve any real, legal, problems and creates a bunch.

In addition, I'd like to point out, most people probably take deposit insurance for a given. It's so rare a bank goes bankrupt, it almost never comes into play. That's also why it's affordable for banks without charging insane fees.

If anyone was going to be serious about Bitcoin, most people are going to implicitly assume something similar would apply, and be really f'ing angry when it turns out their money is just gone when an exchange goes bust. I'm sure exchanges could offer insurance similar to mandated deposit insurance, but I'd hate to see the price.
 
The Ars forums stick out as one of the most Bitcoin hostile tech communities on the internet and I'm curious as to why that's the case. Also, what would it take to change your mind about Bitcoin?

Like Yogi, Arsians are smarter than the average bear.

Great investigative piece on Guardian, the rise of increasingly sophisticated "pig butchering" global scams utilizing bitcoin: often with tragic results.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...pound-crypto-scams?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other
 
Here's an article from Reuters in December 2021 looking at the remittance industry and why the big players aren't embracing bitcoin. Too risky and expensive. But that's only for the incumbent industry, which is the part that crypto advocates want to bypass. There are also some numbers in there about global remittances.

$500 billion per year
$12 billion of that moved by mobile money, a 65% increase over 2020
<1% (<$5b) moved through crypto (source: some dude interviewed in the article)

Average remittance fees 6.5%, and big firms under pressure from competition to cut fees.

Theoretically BTC fees would be 2-2.5% in Nigeria. No source given.

Compliance a major obstacle. Compliance costs for remittance firms has increased and bitcoin would likely add to that burden as regulators clamp down.

Moneygram has made moves to incorporate crypto in its remittance products. The big obstacle according to them is building the "on/off ramps to local fiat currencies".

The chairman and CEO of Moneygram, Alex Holmes, also had an op-ed on the subject. He has some optimism but raises volatility, transaction costs, and other headwinds. This from a self-proclaimed crypto enthusiast.

https://techcrunch.com/2021/12/28/i...rnative-to-remittances-or-an-additive-factor/
 
I'm curious if people (particularly demultiplexer) think there is some value in Bitcoin for remittances. If you are connected to the financial system, it's easy and cheap to go to IBKR and convert a million USD to EUR in seconds and with just a few dollars in fees. But try to send $200 from the US to Indonesia, especially to someone without a bank account, and your most appealing option might be WesternUnion. Now you're getting screwed on (partially hidden) fees and may face lengthy delays. That's also assuming the recipient has a postal address and ID card, which is often not the case in developing countries.

Credit card companies are getting into the remittance game big time. With Visa, you can send money card-card globally, virtually instantly, with very small fees. This has pushed down fees for mainstays like western union. Of course....Western union still works very well for people who don't have a credit card or even a fixed address.
 

Wheels Of Confusion

Ars Legatus Legionis
75,630
Subscriptor
Crypto advocates are always on about "no government interference" but some forms of government interference are desirable. Like knowing the exchange you're doing business with isn't scamming everybody. Sure, real banks have problems with that too, right? Except we know when that happens because they have to comply with regulations and put up with government oversight. Finance is highly regulated for a reason, and that reason is not "just because government always accrues power whether they deserve it or not!"
Also, the entire push for the implied argument that you can use Bitcoin to send/spend money in ways the government doesn't like? I get that you're trying to argue that it enables resistance movements against authoritarian regimes and access to contraband stuff, maybe banned books and movies, etc. Many of you will even argue that it allows for recreational drug use which should, like, TOTALLY not be a crime, man! But the other side of the virtual coin is that those exact same arguments apply to human trafficking in the exact same way and to the exact same extent. So we should use crypto because it's so permissive it even lets people be used as sex slaves and chattel without Big Brother knowing about it, right?
 

Coppercloud

Ars Praefectus
4,666
Subscriptor
I've seen those things in the weirdest locations, suggesting they meet some demand. It's obviously not BTC's main purpose,

I very strongly suspect their primary function is to enhance the perceived legitimacy of bitcoin.
You might be right, I always assumed the reason they were there, right next to the state lottery machines in my grocery store, is because it's illegal to put slot machines in grocery stores.

My 5 year old actually asked about them yesterday and I said "no, that's gambling." "What's that" she asked. "That's where you give people your money and they give you endorphins.

Oddly enough there was a customer service lady behind a counter that overheard (I think she assumed I was talking about the scratch offs) and she chimes in "I still like it, but I love your explanation."
 

Megalodon

Ars Legatus Legionis
36,693
Subscriptor
Crypto advocates are always on about "no government interference" but some forms of government interference are desirable. Like knowing the exchange you're doing business with isn't scamming everybody. Sure, real banks have problems with that too, right? Except we know when that happens because they have to comply with regulations and put up with government oversight. Finance is highly regulated for a reason, and that reason is not "just because government always accrues power whether they deserve it or not!"

The quality of that oversight is questionable, but at least with banks you get deposit insurance. Crucial to avoid bank runs.
 

abj

Ars Legatus Legionis
18,256
Subscriptor
All of the crypto exchanges that have gone bankrupt over the last 6 months are claiming that they aren't brokers and by the terms and conditions those people that deposited money in them were actually giving them unsecured loans. So clients that deposited crypto in them are last in line to recover anything.
 
Another thing that hasn't been mentioned here yet is ledger immutability. Crypto bros are always going on about how transactions on the blockchain cannot be edited or changed after the fact. I contend that this is a bug, rather than a feature. Transaction rollback is needed for any kind of money transfer network. Rollbacks should be rare, but possible. Complete immutability is madness. It implies that a bad actor will never inject fraudulent data onto the blockchain. So we've gone from a system which assumes bad actors and has mechanisms to deal with them, to a system which assumes good faith on the part of all actors. And if that assumption proves false for your transaction, "That sucks. I guess you should've vetted your trading partner better."

Also, crypto promotes oligarchy way more than other methods of exchange. I mean, all monetary systems promote oligarchy, but crypto just makes no bones about it at all. Any crypto network, no matter how distributed, will eventually devolve into a handful of major players, with only two or three needed to effect any network change they want. This has happened to every major blockchain. Even the vaunted Bitcoin was forked when shit got too real for the whales holding a bunch of valuable electrons, so they forked the system, and everyone else had to go along with it if they wanted a better chance at retaining their value. So, you've taken the government regulation of fiat, which is at least nominally accountable to the populace, and replaced it with the whims of a handful of douchebags. It'd be like taking Elon Musk's Twitter "management style" and transplanting it directly to the Federal Reserve. Doesn't seem like a good trade to me.
 
Last edited:

Hangfire

Ars Tribunus Angusticlavius
7,648
Subscriptor++
I'm just sad he hasn't replied to me and the cryptobro hasn't tried to give me a real world use of blockchain technology in commercial use right now. I spent time writing up my first post and whoosh he hasn't responded to any of the points at all.

I mean I'm sad because then I'll get to eviscerate him directly but I'm still sad about it ok.
 

Fingolfin

Ars Praefectus
5,820
Subscriptor++
And how about gold? Lots of commercials now for keeping gold/silver under the mattress for "when those times" come about.
No computer, no phone, no wifi access all of a sudden how do you get you Bit Coins?

And if you have these gold/silver bars under your mattress good luck using them as money when the shit hits the fan and the guy selling you potatoes tells you its all your gold for 2 spuds.
 

thekaj

Ars Legatus Legionis
48,270
Subscriptor++
I'm just sad he hasn't replied to me and the cryptobro hasn't tried to give me a real world use of blockchain technology in commercial use right now. I spent time writing up my first post and whoosh he hasn't responded to any of the points at all.

I mean I'm sad because then I'll get to eviscerate him directly but I'm still sad about it ok.
I'm assuming the dogpiling was so fierce, everything in the cryptobro handbook for convincing skeptics has already been exhausted. That's a pity for a 7 year old account.
 

Sunner

Ars Praefectus
4,847
Subscriptor++
Lead, let me tell you how to ensure your future with Lead Under the Bed.

Available in .22, .38, .40, .45 and .44 M.

edited for: Please follow the common sense laws when handling your funds....
Depends on the type of apocalypse. If it's a zombiecalypse I'm breaking into the nearest movie gear rental business to steal myself some chainmail. Also canned food and chlorine tablets.
 

HappyBunny

Ars Legatus Legionis
13,232
Subscriptor
I agree with most of what has been written. Bitcoin doesn't solve any real, legal, problems and creates a bunch.

In addition, I'd like to point out, most people probably take deposit insurance for a given. It's so rare a bank goes bankrupt, it almost never comes into play. That's also why it's affordable for banks without charging insane fees.

"Trustless" is used as a buzzword for crypto, but in a very real sense, as a customer of financial services in the US, crypto requires vastly more trust than the traditional banking system. I do not have to "trust" that a bank will actually return my deposit, or that an investment bank will actually purchase and hold the securities that I tell it to. The government provides that as a guarantee to me.

If anyone was going to be serious about Bitcoin, most people are going to implicitly assume something similar would apply, and be really f'ing angry when it turns out their money is just gone when an exchange goes bust. I'm sure exchanges could offer insurance similar to mandated deposit insurance, but I'd hate to see the price.

This is already happening with the numerous exchange bankruptcies. A lot of customers are very surprised to learn that their deposits are not protected at all, because deposit insurance is just such an ingrained and expected part of the banking system that a lot of people don't even realize crypto is operating completely outside of those rules.
 
Bitcoin and crypto in general are touted as tools of liberation when they're just scams. That's one of my least favorite parts of the stuff. Crypto is touted as liberatory tools by two groups: Right-wingers, and techno-libertarians.

The right-wingers see crypto as something that can let them escape government regulation of money and do corporate garbage without nation-states getting involved. These are people like Steve Forbes, who's been champing at the bit for things like stablecoins to gain traction. They see it as another way to limit the power of governments to tell them to stop all the bad crap they like to do.

The techno-libertarians are orgs like Electronic Frontier Foundation and Fight For The Future. They continuously tout crypto as "censorship-resistant" and an important tool for humanitarians and helping people in authoritarian regimes. Fight For The Future and its head honcho Evan Greer love to talk up the organization's progressive credentials, but when they accept donations in climate-killing Bitcoin, as well as accept donations via crypto in general, then their motives in asking governments to not "kill crypto", like in one of their campaigns, become suspect.

The EFF and FFTF's Evan Greer leaping to the defense of mixers like Tornado Cash bother me a whole lot. Henry Farrell and Bruce Schneier discussed the issues with Tornado Cash in response to the two organizations' talking points. Things like Tornado Cash and DAOs that funnel crypto from here to there are golems, not free speech.

It would be nice if the tech-focused orgs could look past their obsessions with putting even more shit under the protection of free speech when it doesn't deserve it, and instead look at how cryptocurrency can lead to the kind of authoritarian corporate hellscape that they're ostensibly seeking to prevent.
 

Coppercloud

Ars Praefectus
4,666
Subscriptor
If it's a zombiecalypse I'm breaking into the nearest movie gear rental business to steal myself some chainmail.
That stuff is usually plastic, FYI.

Back on-topic
Yeah, I stopped donating to the EFF when they said "Let's crypto!"
Didn't the EFF stop taking donations in cryptocurrency a while ago?
 

Case

Ars Tribunus Angusticlavius
6,750
Doesn't seem like it, or those jet-plane-loud mining "outposts" chewing up electricity wouldn't be popping up.

A rube and his money are soon parted, unless they can take it from another rube. The idea above that crypto people are either right-wing or tech libertarian (iirc) was right on with every single one I know. Not a one seems to give a shit about the environmental impact, even the ones young enough (unlike me) to likely experience the worst aspects of it. Get rich and get rich quick.
 
Doesn't seem like it, or those jet-plane-loud mining "outposts" chewing up electricity wouldn't be popping up.

A rube and his money are soon parted, unless they can take it from another rube. The idea above that crypto people are either right-wing or tech libertarian (iirc) was right on with every single one I know. Not a one seems to give a shit about the environmental impact, even the ones young enough (unlike me) to likely experience the worst aspects of it. Get rich and get rich quick.
"What do I care about the environment? Me and my Dogecoins are going to be living on Mars with Elon!"
 
  • Like
Reactions: bjn

GohanIYIan

Ars Tribunus Angusticlavius
9,905
For me, the issue is the stated goal didn't pan out. The basic argument in the original paper is about micropayments. It posits that reversible transactions require some overhead for the institutions processing transactions, and a trustless, irreversible network could offer lower transaction costs. That sounds plausible-ish in theory. But the sheer volatility makes it nearly impossible to make precise, small payments, and IMO there's no prospect of that part changing.

The subsequent ideas are just much less persuasive. Bitcoin as a hedge against inflation because it operates differently than fiat currency clearly didn't pan out. I'm not 100% hostile to the underlying technology of distributed ledgers being useful, but even if the technology finds a niche it's unclear how that would make owning Bitcoins more valuable or useful.
 

Paladin

Ars Legatus Legionis
33,561
Subscriptor
I think the real issue that crypto coin folks hate to face is that they are clamoring to create/point out a viable use case for crypto-currency, but... if such a rare beast actually ever comes to be, the speculative nature of the currency and its associated scams will either torpedo the viable use case via instability of the currency, or the viable use case will torpedo the speculation around the currency because there will finally be good reason to actually spend the currency (theoretically). It's highly unlikely that both conditions could persist. So they either have to admit that it is a ponzi scheme to a large degree, or face the fact that the value of the currency will have to be tremendously corrected before it can be used for a viable transactional use in real world scenarios... which means the people who are holding most of it and who are most motivated to make it look legitimate will lose their shorts in the process.

So the effective end game is that it's a standoff of people who are staring at each other, waiting for someone to flinch (sell) and hoping to get the most growth/minimal loss before they have to face that selling is the only effective out that doesn't mean massive losses.

Of course, you can look at FTX and all the others who have gone through similar collapses and see that mass sell-offs are the inevitable end and trigger for even more sell-offs. It's just a question of who will pull the trigger and dodge first, and how much they can sell before the coin loses enough value that selling no longer makes sense. The biggest crypto-plumpers like SBF of FTX are a great example of how the conceit that if you just believe hard enough and keep juggling money hard enough, no one will notice that the money has all been replaced with digital bits of nothing/debt and transactions mean little or nothing when it is just debt moving from one pile to another in the hopes of making the coins involved look important.

It has become abundantly clear that anyone still pushing crypto currency at this point, is either painfully dumb, intentionally dishonest, or some of both because you have to have a selfish motive (damage control and dreams of recovery) to continue pushing it after all that has happened.
 

bjn

Ars Praefectus
5,154
Subscriptor++
I'm just sad he hasn't replied to me and the cryptobro hasn't tried to give me a real world use of blockchain technology in commercial use right now. I spent time writing up my first post and whoosh he hasn't responded to any of the points at all.

I mean I'm sad because then I'll get to eviscerate him directly but I'm still sad about it ok.
Remind me to always be nice to you.
 

Hangfire

Ars Tribunus Angusticlavius
7,648
Subscriptor++
Remind me to always be nice to you.
https://meincmagazine.com/civis/threa...gative-towards-bitcoin.1489572/#post-41587533
Dude did he respond to any of my points at all? I mean I didn't see it, maybe I missed it?

or even this post?

https://meincmagazine.com/civis/threa...gative-towards-bitcoin.1489572/#post-41587813
I mean I put some effort into them, sure most of that effort may have been thinly veiled contempt and disgust, but there was also a side order of mockery and ridicule there too... The least he could do is try to respond...
 

Nevarre

Ars Legatus Legionis
24,417
One of the many things that Crypto advocates bring up when you have a list of negative points about the problems of Crypto, they bring up "but these are all the things it can do". They seem to have a hard time accepting that "the good things about Crypto" are either something that I don't care the least bit about or is a downside or risk depending on how you look at it.

It's OK to say that every bad thing about Crypto is real and be fully dismissive of any supposed upside. It's OK to want currencies and investment instruments to be highly regulated and/or backed by large governments because the risks are serious. It might be an option to move money in Euro to some unbanked person in rural Malaysia, and it's also 100% OK for me to care zero about that and/or dismiss the risks of doing that vs. normal currency arbitrage and trading.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bjn
The Ars forums stick out as one of the most Bitcoin hostile tech communities on the internet and I'm curious as to why that's the case. Also, what would it take to change your mind about Bitcoin?
I’m not sure Ars is uniquely anti-bitcoin. Maybe the dislike for it shines through a little more intensely just because it is a smaller community. If only 1% of a community the size of Reddit cares about bitcoins, they can get some pro-bitcoin conversation, here 1% is like two people.

Anyway for example cryptocurrency stuff generally get a pretty frosty reception on Hackernews nowadays.

I think it is near-enough to “technology stuff” that anywhere technical people hang out, it’s already been discussed to death. The technology is generally pretty straightforward to understand at least at a high level, so it isn’t that interesting to read about again. It’s been going on for a while so the sparkle has rubbed off, we had the articles about how it would revolutionize everything, didn’t happen, then we had the articles kind of making fun of it, now it’s all played out.

Also, cryptocurrency and NFT fans are also another wave of annoying tech-cash-in-enthusiasts (like social media influencers and ad guys) here to make the internet worse. I mean the internet isn’t our playground anymore anyway, and the internet as part of the broader culture is bound to evolve, but it is still annoying that people are trying to make a quick buck by screwing it up.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.