Why is my dog like this? Current DNA tests won’t explain it to you.

Dog behavior is a lot more complicated than any one gene variant.

See full article...

 

[wk_]

My brother's neighbour is a fitness freak. He wanted a dog, so he chose a breed that "requires 8 to 10 kilometers of daily running" (his explanation). He got a dog that is a candidate for the laziest dog in the world.

 

[Marakai]

My lords and masters and I are participating in Darwin's Ark feline program, and to be frank, if they use similar surveys I'm not surprised at the lack of definite results.

I found - and have communicated it to them - their survey questions are by far not granular enough. This starts with the distinction between deceased and living and down all the way to insufficient distinction of age.

A question like this (almost verbatim):

"Did your cat have difficulties jumping on a chair?"

just leaves me befuddled, as there is no qualifier. What? When? As a kitten? Or as a 20 year old? (I had specifically "marked" this one as a deceased friend). That wasn't just one, but is a repeat pattern in the study.

So, how do I get them the data that my now gone beloved Russian Blue was sitting in a 4m/12ft above-ground window alcove, with no launching furniture near-by, but late in life due to arthritis sometime needed a couple of go's before making it on to the couch? Meaning he was able to do a Wicked impersonation in his youth and then slowed down quite a bit as do we all when we hit the equivalent of 100?

This didn't become any clearer when entering the living ones either, sadly. The question were the same whether it was our 2 kittens or our 15 year old lady.

In response the DA researchers advised to put in copious notes - but such free-form can't make evaluation easier, I would think? I mean, we're critter-people, we're prone to write a novel!

 

[Chuckstar]

My lords and masters and I are participating in Darwin's Ark feline program, and to be frank, if they use similar surveys I'm not surprised at the lack of definite results.

I found - and have communicated it to them - their survey questions are by far not granular enough. This starts with the distinction between deceased and living and down all the way to insufficient distinction of age.

A question like this (almost verbatim):

"Did your cat have difficulties jumping on a chair?"

just leaves me befuddled, as there is no qualifier. What? When? As a kitten? Or as a 20 year old? (I had specifically "marked" this one as a deceased friend). That wasn't just one, but is a repeat pattern in the study.

So, how do I get them the data that my now gone beloved Russian Blue was sitting in a 4m/12ft above-ground window alcove, with no launching furniture near-by, but late in life due to arthritis sometime needed a couple of go's before making it on to the couch? Meaning he was able to do a Wicked impersonation in his youth and then slowed down quite a bit as do we all when we hit the equivalent of 100?

This didn't become any clearer when entering the living ones either, sadly. The question were the same whether it was our 2 kittens or our 15 year old lady.

In response the DA researchers advised to put in copious notes - but such free-form can't make evaluation easier, I would think? I mean, we're critter-people, we're prone to write a novel!

“Look, we just need a lot of people to answer so we have enough data to publish something. We don’t really care about it being a good study, or we would’ve come up with a useful questionnaire.”

 

[Mustachioed Copy Cat]

Oh good, another study to be misunderstood like the UMass genetics survey by pit bull supporters and their ‘any dog can attack’ bullshit.

 

[monkeywrench76]

I don't understand why anyone would think this would work. Human behavior / personality is not dictated by a handful few variants. dogs genomes are just a little smaller

 

[cf0]

I don't understand why anyone would think this would work. Human behavior / personality is not dictated by a handful few variants. dogs genomes are just a little smaller

Me neither.

Obviously, horoscopes are the answer.

 

[Shavano]

I thought that a lot of behavior patterns in my old dog were specific to her. Turns out, they were specific to the breed and watching a few youtube videos of that breed made that very clear.

I've seen a lot of people attribute behavioral traits to their dogs on pretty sketchy evidence, influenced by their breed. One example: I have a friend who has a collie. I didn't get to observe her for very long or very closely - there was a lot going on. She had this habit of following my friend, and poking at her ankles when she walked away. She attributed this, and the fact that the (young) dog often would mess with the cats to herding instinct. She might be right: collies (even the showy ones) are a working breed originating as sheep and cattle herding dogs. But IMO her evidence that the dog was exhibiting herding behavior was weak. I saw both as expressions of the dog wanting to play.

I'm guessing the biggest problem is expecting behavior/attitude to be tied to a single gene or that such things add linearly with a bunch of "adjust this attitude up such a way" genes. The second problem is trying to get dog owners getting tested to accurately describe their dog to get the data needed for these results.

Oh very much that. Many owners are really quite clueless about their own pets. They don't understand what makes them work, what they want, or how to interact with them productively. Much less how their behavior compares to other dogs, because they don't have enough experience of other dogs to know where their pet is on the spectrum.

I've been to a conference by (essentially) a dog psychiatrist a few years ago, she was explaining a study that found out that a dog's breed corresponds to around 10% of the behavior, on average.

Possibly true, and possibly with exceptions. I've met only one or two golden retrievers who weren't happy go lucky, slightly to completely dim goofballs, and very few rottweilers fit to live with people. Never met a hound that wasn't inquisitive or didn't howl.

Pit bulls are all over the place, from milder than mild to full-on psycho.

Other than dachshunds. They've been weirdified by overbreeding, I suspect.

another thought. That 10% might be about the dog psych setting expectations. Their business is helping people who don't understand dogs "fix their dogs". In most cases, the dog is not particularly weird, but they've got paired up with a person who doesn't know how to be a dog owner and they're unwittingly reinforcing the behavior they don't want and flummoxed that the dog's behavior is unpredictable (to them). Statements like that should be followed up with, "Most of the difference in dog behavior is due to environmental factors and the biggest of those, by far, is you."

Dogs have been bred for tens of thousands of years to look to people for leadership. More than anything else, a dog's behavior depends on the people it lives with. And other dogs, if there are other dogs in their home.

 

[Shavano]

Me neither.

Obviously, horoscopes are the answer.

Shirley you can't be Sirius.

 

[MST2.021K]

Other than dachshunds. They've been weirdified by overbreeding, I suspect.

If you want a hotdog with teeth that dives into tunnels after other vicious animals, they gotta have a certain edge of weird terror that goes along with it.

 

[metavirus]

It would be illuminating to learn a bit more about the business end of this testing company. As with a lot of these sciency startups, the CEOs are just inept hucksters, at most with some tangential credential. We so often get down to one of two predominate conclusions: shameless hucksters who’d sell anything to anyone for a buck, or someone who went to, say, vet school for a couple years- who probably should know better but decided to fleece rubes regardless. Both conclusions are sad.

 

[shodanbo]

I have a 60+ lb. goldador (The Universal Flow, or Flow for short) that stuffs herself into the bottom level of a cat tower because she was raised by our cats. No genetics involved there. Just nurture.

You're welcome!

 

[Antheraea]

Dogs have been bred for tens of thousands of years to look to people for leadership. More than anything else, a dog's behavior depends on the people it lives with. And other dogs, if there are other dogs in their home.

yeah like, this kind of thing is why if someone had offered to clone my (now deceased) dogs, I would turn them down. Sure, their desire to run (and run very fast!) is probably innate, but I think those same dogs being raised by "teenaged-me who had to go to school with my mom who worked full time" will turn out extremely differently from being raised by "adult-me who works from home remotely (and is properly medicated to boot)". Clones of my boys would look like them but would not act like them, aside from the zoomies.

 

[Jackattak]

View attachment 123777
You're welcome!

Samuel the House Cat is epic. 20+ lbs of love. And fear.

 

[C64 raids Bungling Bay]

Some of the breed traits are real. For instance, a herding breed will happily teach you to play ball and frisbee. And will instinctively nip at Achilles while playing. I haven't been able to teach other breeds, even smarter individuals, something that isn't in their nature, such as frisbee.

A quick plug for professional trainers and especially canine psychiatrists: dogs can have a host of real neurological problems. Something as simple as an anti-anxiety med or a SRI can substantially improve their quality of life. I've raised a pit from pup to gentle, friendly old man, and environment clearly is the most important factor. But its ok to admit you need some help.

 

[OOPMan]

I've been to a conference by (essentially) a dog psychiatrist a few years ago, she was explaining a study that found out that a dog's breed corresponds to around 10% of the behavior, on average.

That figure is a lot higher for work dogs than for companion dogs, because the former have been selected and trained to do a task for a very long time. We've had sledge dogs (chukotka) for at least 2500 years, and for centuries we've had hounds, retrievers, shepherds, or guard dogs.

Dogs as companions are a 200-year-old thing, less than that in large parts of the world. We just haven't had enough time / discipline to breed dogs that are excellent companions.

We also know dogs can evolve based or education and/or trauma. The weakest dog in a litter, the one who ends up with the scraps, is more likely to protect its food. A dog that was beaten by humans might need a long time for a trusting relationship to appear - and might defend itself should a stranger try to pet it.

On top of all that, there's a bit of a Simpson's paradox - people will pick a breed that they think matches their needs then train the dog that way, so we end up will lots of golden retrievers taught to interact with kids, and lots of German shepherds taught to bark at strangers - plus a bit of confirmation bias (a golden that bites is a quickly-forgotten anomaly, unlike a pitbull that bites which will make local news for a week).

I believe it was this study https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abk0639

Edit: hey several of the authors participated in both this study and the one covered in the article.

Really nice points.

One of my dogs is one I rescued off the street. I'm guessing whatever happened when she was on the streets was pretty traumatic because it's 11 years later and she still has a wildly irrational (from my perspective obviously) fear of two things:

1. Black plastic bin bags
2. Garbage disposal trucks

 

[Shavano]

Some of the breed traits are real. For instance, a herding breed will happily teach you to play ball and frisbee. And will instinctively nip at Achilles while playing. I haven't been able to teach other breeds, even smarter individuals, something that isn't in their nature, such as frisbee.

A quick plug for professional trainers and especially canine psychiatrists: dogs can have a host of real neurological problems. Something as simple as an anti-anxiety med or a SRI can substantially improve their quality of life. I've raised a pit from pup to gentle, friendly old man, and environment clearly is the most important factor. But its ok to admit you need some help.

Well absolutely. But the competent ones come in assuming the problem is you unless you've raised multiple other dogs that were happy and well adjusted because experience will have taught them that's most often the case.

 

[Shavano]

I always wonder what happened to dogs that are deathly afraid of thunder. I've raised two dogs from pups and neither of them had that fear.

Though the first one was terrified of hot air balloons and ultralights.

I kind of get that. She thought it was the aliens coming to get her.

 

[C64 raids Bungling Bay]

I always wonder what happened to dogs that are deathly afraid of thunder. I've raised two dogs from pups and neither of them had that fear.

Though the first one was terrified of hot air balloons and ultralights.

I kind of get that. She thought it was the aliens coming to get her.

Some of them have very sensitive ears. It's not just loud noises, barometric pressure changes will do it as well. I suspect it may actually physically hurt, but have no proof.

 

[Pluvia Arenae]

Really nice points.

One of my dogs is one I rescued off the street. I'm guessing whatever happened when she was on the streets was pretty traumatic because it's 11 years later and she still has a wildly irrational (from my perspective obviously) fear of two things:

1. Black plastic bin bags
2. Garbage disposal trucks

I always wonder what happened to dogs that are deathly afraid of thunder. I've raised two dogs from pups and neither of them had that fear.

Though the first one was terrified of hot air balloons and ultralights.

I kind of get that. She thought it was the aliens coming to get her.

I've heard and read from a few sources that puppies go through somewhat standard periods (during roughly their first year of life) in which they temporarily become more cautious and prone to fear, and anything that scares them enough during those periods can leave a long-lasting fear response, a bit like PTSD.

Here are two pages about it from different orgs with slightly different takes on it:

https://www.akc.org/expert-advice/training/puppy-fear-periods/
https://sdhumane.org/resources/puppies-fear-periods-reactivity/

I have no idea how much actual rigorous research has been done on the topic, but it seems to be well known among people who regularly raise puppies.

 

[dptalia]

More pictures of Max please!

 

[walnut close]

There probably is some genetic component to certain aspects of dog behavior;

No, there certainly is a connection. Anybody who has spent any time training working dogs knows this. Training a border collie to retrieve things the way a hunting retriever does is possible, but requires a lot of effort and does not come naturally to the highly intelligent collie. Training the retriever to herd sheep, likewise. But you barely have to train, say, a poodle, to retrieve. A little guidance for how to keep the game going is all it takes. Finding things and bringing them back to the person with the goodies is first nature to a poodle, an artificial act trained in to a collie. It's very much in their genes.

 

[DCStone]

No, there certainly is a connection. Anybody who has spent any time training working dogs knows this. Training a border collie to retrieve things the way a hunting retriever does is possible, but requires a lot of effort and does not come naturally to the highly intelligent collie. Training the retriever to herd sheep, likewise. But you barely have to train, say, a poodle, to retrieve. A little guidance for how to keep the game going is all it takes. Finding things and bringing them back to the person with the goodies is first nature to a poodle, an artificial act trained in to a collie. It's very much in their genes.

We had an Aussie who would happily chase down anything that you threw. However, once he'd stopped it moving, he'd just turn and grin at you, and then wait for you to come and pick it up. If he brought you anything (such as a branch or rope) it was so he could get you to chase him. On the other hand, he would always nip at the wheels of the kids' scooters.

Oh, and he also liked to do this:

 

[lasertekk]

The dog gene checking services have come a long way, the early hucksters are gone or reformed, now employing proper people and techniques to do the work. Gone are the early days when a few jokesters would send it alternative samples of DNA (human) and they would come back reading as dogs. I primarily use these services to lock unto breed concentrations and any potential future health issues.

 

[brionl]

Needs more pics.

He's got a nose perfectly evolved to clean out pudding cups.

 

[lasertekk]

View attachment 123799

He's got a nose perfectly evolved to clean out pudding cups.

Starbucks ‘pup cups’. She knows.

 

[Snark218]

I've seen a lot of people attribute behavioral traits to their dogs on pretty sketchy evidence, influenced by their breed. One example: I have a friend who has a collie. I didn't get to observe her for very long or very closely - there was a lot going on. She had this habit of following my friend, and poking at her ankles when she walked away. She attributed this, and the fact that the (young) dog often would mess with the cats to herding instinct. She might be right: collies (even the showy ones) are a working breed originating as sheep and cattle herding dogs. But IMO her evidence that the dog was exhibiting herding behavior was weak. I saw both as expressions of the dog wanting to play.

Play and prey drive and herding drive are all aspects of the same behaviors. As someone who owns cohabits with provides opposable thumb-related services to a border collie, they definitely follow you, circle back behind you to boss you around, and boop your ankles with their snoots; one gets the impression that this is basically dog humor and she's doing it to mess with us. When herding, collies steer sheep around with bluff charges, nip at their ankles, and cut off escapees. But those same behaviors plus aggression are hunting behaviors in wolves; the gentle ankle nip can rip out a tendon with some force behind it. Of course training and socialization is a major determinant, but different breeds absolutely emphasize different aspects of the basic canine behavior toolkit.

Possibly true, and possibly with exceptions. I've met only one or two golden retrievers who weren't happy go lucky, slightly to completely dim goofballs, and very few rottweilers fit to live with people. Never met a hound that wasn't inquisitive or didn't howl.

Pit bulls are all over the place, from milder than mild to full-on psycho.

Breed characteristics are less determinative than a lot of people think, but they're definitely there. It's especially fun when you have a mutt that's a bit of both. We have a retriever mix who's super happy-go-lucky, goofy, and playful and extremely smart, and Jesus, is entertaining that dog an undertaking.

I think a lot of the issue with pits is more the risk than it is any set of strongly emphasized behaviors; they may be no more likely to bite than any other dog, but their bite strength is off the charts and they tend to lock down when they do bite, so if they bite the outcomes are almost guaranteed to be worse.

another thought. That 10% might be about the dog psych setting expectations. Their business is helping people who don't understand dogs "fix their dogs". In most cases, the dog is not particularly weird, but they've got paired up with a person who doesn't know how to be a dog owner and they're unwittingly reinforcing the behavior they don't want and flummoxed that the dog's behavior is unpredictable (to them). Statements like that should be followed up with, "Most of the difference in dog behavior is due to environmental factors and the biggest of those, by far, is you."

Dogs have been bred for tens of thousands of years to look to people for leadership. More than anything else, a dog's behavior depends on the people it lives with. And other dogs, if there are other dogs in their home.

In particular, pits and other bully breeds are often socialized (or not), trained (or not), and their behavior modeled by people manifestly unsuited to any of the three tasks.

 

[Astro-CCD]

We have two Old English Sheepdogs that are half brothers but are more different from each other than the other 5 (all unrelated) we have had since 1981. Just one data point but there it is.

View attachment 123737

 

[Snark218]

No, there certainly is a connection. Anybody who has spent any time training working dogs knows this. Training a border collie to retrieve things the way a hunting retriever does is possible, but requires a lot of effort and does not come naturally to the highly intelligent collie. Training the retriever to herd sheep, likewise. But you barely have to train, say, a poodle, to retrieve. A little guidance for how to keep the game going is all it takes. Finding things and bringing them back to the person with the goodies is first nature to a poodle, an artificial act trained in to a collie. It's very much in their genes.

We tried to play fetch with our border collie, and she thought it was the dumbest shit ever. I threw the ball and she shot me this absolutely withering look of confused contempt. What the hell did you do that for? Now the ball is all the way over there. No, hell no, you go get it. Idiot.

Our retriever mix, on the other hand, saw me throw a ball for the first time and was overcome by transcendent joy; he bounded off after it like OH MY GOD THE PURPOSE OF MY LIFE HAS BEEN REVEALED

 

[fryhole]

Popular genetics tests can’t tell you much about your dog’s personality, according to a recent study.

Pretty much the same logic for humans - personality comes from environment and surrounding culture and life experiences - why would this be any different for other animals.

University of Massachusetts genomicist Kathryn Lord and her colleagues compared DNA sequences and behavioral surveys from more than 3,000 dogs whose humans had enrolled them in the Darwin’s Ark project (and filled out the surveys). “Genetic tests for behavioral and personality traits in dogs are now being marketed to pet owners, but their predictive accuracy has not been validated,” wrote Lord and her colleagues in their recent paper.

The key takeaway here is "marketing". The marketing is targeting uneducated pet owners who tend to believe eveyrthing some radnom person or company tells them.

 

[deltaproximus]

I was pretty liberal with my dog (very little to almost no training) and let her get ay with lot of stuff. However, I never tolerated her growling at me. She kind of a monster as a puppy, so you had to put your foot don sometimes or else she would have been a raving lunatic. I know this because I got her from a friend's dog litter, and to different people wanted to return the pups because they where so headstrong.

The same dog turned into one the best dog I ever had. Practically potty trained herself, very few things destroyed as a puppy*got along great with other people and dogs, great in the car, really smart and wouldn't hurt anyone (except the squirrel that teased her, but that as her mortal enemy).

The only time my little guy growls is when someone wakes him up unexpectedly, and it's only ever for a couple of seconds while he gets his bearings, so I've never been concerned with it. Besides, he's cute enough to get away with anything.

 

[Frank C.]

The dog gene checking services have come a long way, the early hucksters are gone or reformed, now employing proper people and techniques to do the work. Gone are the early days when a few jokesters would send it alternative samples of DNA (human) and they would come back reading as dogs. I primarily use these services to lock unto breed concentrations and any potential future health issues.

I remember reading about that happening in the past. Too funny. But agreed, future health issues are the reason I would do this. Vet bills are getting expensive these days. I'd wanna know if I was sitting on a ticking time bomb. I should get around to it sooner than later.

 

[Snark218]

I was pretty liberal with my dog (very little to almost no training) and let her get ay with lot of stuff. However, I never tolerated her growling at me. She kind of a monster as a puppy, so you had to put your foot don sometimes or else she would have been a raving lunatic. I know this because I got her from a friend's dog litter, and to different people wanted to return the pups because they where so headstrong.

It is underappreciated that dogs, and kids, need and want strong boundaries, and test boundaries often because they're anxious about where those boundaries are.

My first dog as a kid was a Golden Retriever who, contrary to stereotype, was headstrong and alpha to the point of sovereignty, very serious, and an absolute monster of a puppy who'd take flying bites at your ass and hands. My mom named her Annie after the Heart song, but we all realized she was more Boleyn than Dreamboat early on. That lasted right up till my grandpa, a classic Silent Generation type who took no shit, gave her a crisp thwack across the chops when she got up to her bullshit. She refocused and gave him a look like ".......my liege" and they got along great forever after. I don't punish dogs with hitting, but that was an interesting object lesson, and she stopped biting the rest of our asses after she got alpha-rolled a few times. She may have been Queen Annie, but she wasn't queen of the humans, and she needed to know right where her little kingdom stopped.

 

[Snark218]

I remember reading about that happening in the past. Too funny. But agreed, future health issues are the reason I would do this. Vet bills are getting expensive these days. I'd wanna know if I was sitting on a ticking time bomb. I should get around to it sooner than later.

Mutt owner for life here. Pure breeds get all inbred and recessive, especially when they're popular. I firmly believe mixes tend to be healthier, especially as far as musculoskeletal issues are concerned.

 

[OOPMan]

I always wonder what happened to dogs that are deathly afraid of thunder. I've raised two dogs from pups and neither of them had that fear.

Though the first one was terrified of hot air balloons and ultralights.

I kind of get that. She thought it was the aliens coming to get her.

Interestingly enough fear of thunder is something that I've seen develop in dogs over time too.

For example, one of my dogs (deceased since 2019) was always afraid of thunder.

Another of my dogs (the one I mentioned before that is afraid if bin bags and garbage trucks) was not afraid of thunder for most of her life but as of the last few years has developed a fear of it.

 

[Dioptase]

Sometimes you have to accept that creatures are individuals. Or as they said in the Simpsons:

 

[Chuckstar]

Some of the breed traits are real. For instance, a herding breed will happily teach you to play ball and frisbee. And will instinctively nip at Achilles while playing. I haven't been able to teach other breeds, even smarter individuals, something that isn't in their nature, such as frisbee.

A quick plug for professional trainers and especially canine psychiatrists: dogs can have a host of real neurological problems. Something as simple as an anti-anxiety med or a SRI can substantially improve their quality of life. I've raised a pit from pup to gentle, friendly old man, and environment clearly is the most important factor. But it’s ok to admit you need some help.

I’ve never run across a breed that won’t fetch a thrown object, including g a frisbee. Individuals that aren’t into it? Yes. Possibly different tendencies where a breed might be more/less likely to be into fetching? Possible, although you’d have to do a pretty broad statistical analysis to show it. Breed where I’ve never met an individual who will fetch? I’ve had interaction with most breeds at some point and have never run across a breed where no individual would fetch a frisbee. And the claim that it’s only herders who will fetch? Extreme nonsense, considering how much hunters enjoy fetching.

EDIT: I ran across a French bulldog the other day that can even catch a frisbee, something that I would have guessed to have been anatomically unlikely.

 

[DCStone]

I’ve never run across a breed that won’t fetch a thrown object, including g a frisbee. Individuals that aren’t into it? Yes. Possibly different tendencies where a breed might be more/less likely to be into fetching? Possible, although you’d have to do a pretty broad statistical analysis to show it. Breed where I’ve never met an individual who will fetch? I’ve had interaction with most breeds at some point and have never run across a breed where no individual would fetch a frisbee. And the claim that it’s only herders who will fetch? Extreme nonsense, considering how much hunters enjoy fetching.

Two examples of herders that would chase down, but not fetch, right above ^^^.

 

[Pluvia Arenae]

It is underappreciated that dogs, and kids, need and want strong boundaries, and test boundaries often because they're anxious about where those boundaries are.

My first dog as a kid was a Golden Retriever who, contrary to stereotype, was headstrong and alpha to the point of sovereignty, very serious, and an absolute monster of a puppy who'd take flying bites at your ass and hands. My mom named her Annie after the Heart song, but we all realized she was more Boleyn than Dreamboat early on. That lasted right up till my grandpa, a classic Silent Generation type who took no shit, gave her a crisp thwack across the chops when she got up to her bullshit. She refocused and gave him a look like ".......my liege" and they got along great forever after. I don't punish dogs with hitting, but that was an interesting object lesson, and she stopped biting the rest of our asses after she got alpha-rolled a few times. She may have been Queen Annie, but she wasn't queen of the humans, and she needed to know right where her little kingdom stopped.

One effective technique for teaching a dog some boundaries without any hitting is to literally control spatial boundaries around them with your own body. Keep getting in their way and blocking them from reaching whatever or whomever they're trying to reach. In narrow spaces, like hallways, walk towards them and keep blocking them with your legs to force them to back away from any area they should stay out of. If you do this consistently every time they approach the thing or person you want them to avoid, they'll eventually stop and back away sooner each time you block them.

Even better is to loudly and clearly state a command like "STOP" or "BACK" right before you block them (and maybe repeating it each time you force them to back up). Eventually, the command will be enough to stop them.

If you do this consistently enough, they eventually learn to keep some distance from the targets that you block them from.

Related: For small dogs, doing this with even one leg is very effective for getting them to stop trying to be the first one through a door when you're about to open it.

 

[Chuckstar]

Two examples of herders that would chase down, but not fetch, right above ^^^.

The claim was about breeds as a whole, but also I couldn’t find an example right above.

 

[Chuckstar]

One effective technique for teaching a dog some boundaries without any hitting is to literally control spatial boundaries around them with your own body. Keep getting in their way and blocking them from reaching whatever or whomever they're trying to reach. In narrow spaces, like hallways, walk towards them and keep blocking them with your legs to force them to back away from any area they should stay out of. If you do this consistently every time they approach the thing or person you want them to avoid, they'll eventually stop and back away sooner each time you block them.

Even better is to loudly and clearly state a command like "STOP" or "BACK" right before you block them (and maybe repeating it each time you force them to back up). Eventually, the command will be enough to stop them.

If you do this consistently enough, they eventually learn to keep some distance from the targets that you block them from.

Related: For small dogs, doing this with even one leg is very effective for getting them to stop trying to be the first one through a door when you're about to open it.

One additional aspect of stepping between like that is it tends to distract the dog from whatever it’s focused on. Not always, of course, but IMHO that kind of training is about redirection, so is amplified if you have a strategy that sometimes disconnects them from the negative stimulus, while at the same time introducing a behavior they get rewarded for.