War with...Iran?

[drogin]

I'm not aware of another western country, with a historically white Christian tradition where there is any significant number of Christian zealots. The United States is alone in this.

Why are Europeans so full of shit?

"We have no religious zeolots" - Brought to you by the continent that had: The Crusades (yes, plural), the Spanish Inquisition, literally contains the motherfucking Pope, over a millenium of dynastic rulers supposedly ordained by God.

Yeah, bro, totally alien concept for Europeans...

 

[drogin]

That Substack article claims no such thing even though it uses Hegseth in the opening image.

The article reports that there were complaints about a unit commander stating that was the mission.

Hegseth is definitely enabling and emboldening Christian nationalism in the forces. Nonetheless he isn't quoted as saying this conflict is to bring Armageddon nor accused of telling his subordinates that.

Granted, it's only Tuesday


(Also trying to start or predict Armageddon is heretical by a plain reading of the Bible for what that's worth )

So, two things:

1. It's always very telling in Ars SoapBox threads that even when someone points out that the posted article doesn't say what the headline says it said, you still get a page full of pearl clutching.
2. It frankly scares me more that a military commands said it as opposed to it really coming out of Hegseth's own mouth.

 

[drogin]

It is actually more the opposite. Fundamentalist Christianity has been consistently shrinking and that has just driven them to be more angry, desperate and the ones that are left are the craziest ones. The US's problem as mentioned above is that Trump and friends have appealed to them and used them as a large part of the MAGA base and somehow gotten into power which has then put a lot of these nutbags into power. The actual churchs' influence have never been lower on their own.

Yeah, this is spot on.

The fatal problem is their "middle ground" members that are not fundamentalists are WAY to accepting of what the most extreme are doing. "Well, they are way more down with JC than I am, so they get a total pass for all this non-Christian behavior" is what keeps the extremists in power.

 

[drogin]

The last crusades were 500 years ago, the Spanish Inquisition disbanded nearly 200 years ago and the Pope isn't salivating at the idea of bringing about Armageddon and the return of Christ by bombing Iran. Sure we have religious zealots, but they're not currently running our governments.

Not yet, but they have. For a very long time. They influenced your entire culture, both good and ill.

I was responding to someone who claimed you didn't have any significant zealots. You do, so I reject your response.

My point is Europeans on this forum keep acting like their shit doesn't stink. It's almost like they stopped teaching European history in Europe...

 

[drogin]

There’s no such organizational structure for atheists and agnostics.

Well, can you blame us? We really don't like being on lists...

 

[drogin]

Dude, you do know that this „continent“ moved on to „settle“ the Americas later? So we share this history together, if you like it or not. He was talking about recent history. While I think he‘s right about about religious fanatism and influence on government by and large, we are also not entirely free of it. Just look at what happened in Serbia/Bosnia. But the far right here doesn‘t try to legitmize itself using Christianity so much (yet?) and the (mainstream) Churches are a lot more progressive in Europe IMHO.

I do know that, but Europeans seem to forget that and all the other atrocities they've committed.

I don't know why you keep making it sound like your far right isn't using Christianity...I've seen the marching, the flags they waive. You think all of the anit-muslim and anti-immigration rhetoric is being done in the name of Odin or something?

 

[drogin]

Eh, you do understand "have" is present tense. And you're pointing out ancient history.

There's an entire city in Europe that is the seat of a giant multi-national church. You have several heads of state that are also heads of the national religion.

What, the fuck, are you actually talking about in terms of ancient history?

 

[drogin]

Ancient or not, Europe choosing to boot out any religious sect that didn't adhere to the various European crowns is at the very root of why the US has such a problem with fundamentalists and other forms of religious charlatans.

Mmm, maybe.

I think we are already too far a field from the OP anyway to talk about that.

All that said, maybe we find a way where you guys actually read the articles that get posted instead of taking the click bait title of the article and descend into the normal European America bashing that adds no value?

 

[drogin]

You still don't get it: Unless you're of 100% native or eastern ancestry, you're in the same boat. Not that this kind of badly understood and childish finger pointing about ancient history matters, anyway. We bashed our heads in for little reason in all quarters of the world at that time.

There are religious symbols in use by the right (Poland, Hungary and Italy mainly) but that is more about cultural christianity and identity. The more extreme right is not in sync with church doctrine and most of them are not religious motivated or even go to church at all. Also the mainstream churches denounce the more extreme positions, even the Catholic Church. The evangelical movement in the USA is quite unique for the western influenced world.

Actually, I think I am the one that gets it...

I am 100% aware of the fact that the United States was founded as a smattering of European colonies. I am 100% aware of the fact that they speak Spanish in both Central and South America even though that's not a language indigenous to either. I am 100% aware that Europeans decimated the continent of Africa. I am 100% aware of the fact that Christianity would not have even spread if it wasn't, initially, for Hellenization and then subsequently due to the Roman Empire.

I am 100% aware that Europe sprouted two of the worst and most vile wars in living memory that subsequently led to the rise of both the USSR and US as global powers, due to their own inability to contain it.

Europe is basically the genetic melting pot and cultural mind virus that's infected the world with utter nonsense for over two thousand years.

So yes, it's a little frustrating every time America comes up that I have to listen to how amazing Europe is and how hideous America is. How you guys have somehow acknowledged your past and you're somehow morally above it all now. It's a crock of shit, and it always has been.

Especially considering in this particular instance none of you used your superior European educations to even read what the fuck was posted.

But this is the last I will say on this in general. It's got nothing to do with the thread at this point.

 

[drogin]

That’s not a random dude, he’s a respected journalist.

Yeah, the problem is not the article.

The problem is that people in this thread did not read it.

Instead, many people just took the poster's word on the contents of the article because it confirmed their biases.

The take aways really should have been:

1. It wasn't said directly by Hegseth, but it is still shitty that he's doing things that are emboldening this behavior (prayer meetings at the Pentagon, etc.).
2. It is FUCKING AWESOME that over a hundred complaints have been filed by NCOs over the remarks made.

 

[drogin]

Someone not reading the article before commenting, on the Internet? UNPOSSIBLE!

I’m glad service members are filing complaints. I imagine they’ll go exactly nowhere.

Maybe, but I'm still glad they are making them. It at least means there is a non-zero chance of someone doing the right thing instead of the "Right" thing at a crucial moment.

 

[drogin]

I will agree that Europe has done all sorts of shit over the years, if you can agree that we (outside Russia) have refrained from that sort of madness after 1945.

(I have a larger, semi-serious theory about the evolutions of societies after massive destructive wars, but it is way off topic for this thread.)

I can admit to that, because it's mostly true. You certainly came along for some rides though, eh?

I'd also just like to point out that refraining from the activity isn't really the same as making up for it. I can't really think of anything that Europe in general has done to repair the damage they did to the world. So it just rings a bit hollow when they try and act like the moral center of the western world...

 

[drogin]

Local news media here are reporting the Iranian's regime Assembly of Experts (council of mullahs) has selected a replacement for Khamenei.
This is his son, Mojtaba Khamanei. He's a cleric from Qom, and has no previous government experience.

He's considered a hardliner on all issues, very much like his father, specifically supporting the massacre of demonstrators in the recent riots.

You'd think that's basically a death sentence, no?

 

[drogin]

It's a larger group than that, by far.
Essentially every 2024 Trump voter was irrational, opposed to democracy, any kind of equality, and any consistent rule of law.
That's 49.8% of the 64% of eligible voters who voted, or more than 32% of the entire adult population.

Man, when you paint with a brush, it's wide as fuck...

 

[drogin]

People keep making this claim without addressing Japan. Let's hope it doesn't go that far, but the precedent exists.

Mmm. I took the point to be "without boots on the ground, too".

So like, Japan fought a very long and bloody war using all kinds of military assets. It's wasn't "just" an atomic bomb that brought about the regime change...

 

[drogin]

they can't continue to blame Biden

I mean...sure they can.

 

[drogin]

Honestly nobody should be surprised by that. Fair is fair, the US fed targeting data to Ukraine for a long time so I don't think the US would have any foot to stand on complaining when Russia does the same here.

The issue isn't complaining, it's "are we entering WWI type of situation" where more an more alliances are brought in due to mutual support.

This is "cold war turning hot" type of stuff that folks were worried about for decades.

 

[drogin]

For Shahed countermeasures...I understand the economic disadvantage, but I think that over the next weeks/months the US and our allies have a far better chance of a layered air defense than Ukraine does against Russia.

The US truly does have traditional air superiority in the region. There's not an issue with us having low cost, slow moving birds (think prop planes normally used for close air support) just in the air for very long periods of time gunning them down with .50 cals...

Add in normal AA if they change altitudes, etc.

We also have a significant range advantage granted us by our carriers. We really don't need to be taking the kinds of hits that Ukraine is taking until we need to hold ground...so to me the risk of fixed assets matters but it isn't going to be the thing that breaks us.

 

[drogin]

What could become a forcing issue is taking more attritional losses resulting in steep unexpected costs, coupled with domestic pressure due to unhappiness with rising fuel prices. So far, Trump has been able to get away with much due to much of the US electorate not directly affected or feeling the pinch. That could start to change—quick—due unforeseen effects (at least to the planners of this adventure) of the Iran conflict going sideways. The electorate is quite often of a you need money to call me honey mindset.

Specifically given the Feb jobs report showing weakness in hospitality sector. People already have less disposeable income and are spending less on luxuries like travel. Will be even worse if gas prices stay high going into the summer.

 

[drogin]

I'm sure voters will be excited to know that their income is being redistributed to investors in a handful of oil companies.

Not to mention that the federal tax on gasoline doesn't "scale" with price of a gallon...it's flat.

So when gas prices go up and demand goes down, "we" actually make less money.

 

[drogin]

Dumb, but at < $0.19/gal it's not like it's going to make any real difference to people. Or the Feds. The gas tax collects something like $50B/year which is real money to you and me, but pocket change in the Federal budget.

Aside from which, unless it comes with a price freeze, the second the tax comes off the oil companies will just increase prices by that amount.

Why not, you were already obviously paying it right?

 

[drogin]

And here we go, a gift to Putin

View attachment 130356

Hopped down to Best Buy this evening and saw gas hitting almost $7 (~$6.50), not by the airport or anywhere trendy. Just a random Shell.

Jeeez. Gas is that high in the midwest?

I'm not saying this as a brag of any kind, but gas by me in NY is like, 3.30 to 3.50 depending on the station. I was not expecting to hear it be double.

I don't understand how that happens...what was it like, three months ago?

 

[drogin]

I THINK Macan has stated they are in CA.

Gas here is 3.15 down from a high of 3.30 and up from about 2.50-2.70 depending on what part of town you're in.

Thanks citizen voters. I hope you meat-puppets are happy.

Ah, I was going by their profile hover..."from St. Louis, MO" doesn't mean they "live" there now. My bad. But still...I get that gas in CA has always been a dollar or so higher than on the East Coast...but $3 higher? That can't all be transport costs.