Utilities vote to close largest coal plant in western US

Navajo Generating Station contributes big to tribal economy but also pollution.

Read the whole story

 

[truthyboy15]

Its not just the plant workers that will lose jobs but The plant consumes about 8 million tons of low sulfur bituminous coal each year, supplied by Peabody Energy's Kayenta mine near Kayenta, Arizona. The coal is hauled 75 miles from mine silos to the plant by the BM&LP electric railroad that is owned and operated by the plant. Characteristics of the coal in 2011 included a sulfur content of 0.64%, an ash content of 10.6%, and higher heating value (HHV) of 10,774 Btu/lb. [18]3

 

[Shinzakura]

Maybe it's time to convert it to a solar or wind farm? The cover image looks like the area could easily support it. Might not save all the jobs, but some is better than none.

 

[Aykernar]

Passed right by that thing on a trip to the southwestern states some years ago. Talk about an eyesore in an otherwise beautiful area - right next to Antelope Canyon, even, though luckily you can't see it when actually in the canyon. So having that thing shut down and hopefully demolished will certainly count as an improvement in my book.

That said, the amount of jobs about to be lost seems considerable. So I sincerely hope there's some plan in the making to help people transition to something new rather than simply saying "so long and thanks for the hard work". There's certainly plenty space and sun in the area, so perhaps some kind of solar plant would be a possibility instead? It could be a hub of renewable energy, with the Glen Canyon dam just nearby as well - the dam picking up the slack when the weather is overcast.

 

[justcauseisjustthat]

Too bad they can't build a natural gas plant to keep some of the job. Let's see what temporary President Trump has to say, seeing as he ran on saving coal.

 

[chibiconsulting]

If I am not mistaken, this should qualify as "clean(er) coal" as compared to coal burned in the eastern part of US?

Characteristics of the coal in 2011 included a sulfur content of 0.64%, an ash content of 10.6%, and higher heating value (HHV) of 10,774 Btu/lb. [18]3[/i]

Maybe the mine can export this coal to places that currently use higher sulfur content coal?

 

[truthyboy15]

It's interesting that the NGS was originally suppose to be a hydroelectric dam but the Navajo Nation opposed it and ultimately Congress passed a compromise bill which allowed for a coal plant. Which is tragic considering where they now find themselves.

 

[Null_Space]

Maybe it's time to convert it to a solar or wind farm? The cover image looks like the area could easily support it. Might not save all the jobs, but some is better than none.

But there's probably a better area to do it.

The coal plant is there because the coal (and water) are there.

If your building a new solar/wind farm, you put it on cheaper, easier to reach land (for construction access).

 

[theSeb]

How is this going to impact Trump's plans to Make America Great Again with Coal Mining? I am not getting it. Somebody help me out please. Surely with Lamar 's help and direction the EPA is going to declare coal power plants as the bestest and cleanest in a few weeks?

 

[truthyboy15]

Too bad they can't build a natural gas plant to keep some of the job. Let's see what temporary President Trump has to say, seeing as he ran on saving coal.

they would have to build a NG plant and a pipeline to it. would that be a smart use of capital and would all parties agree? no idea

 

[Studyhard]

Regarding running the plants on natural gas or exporting the high-quality low-sulfur coal to other plants, unfortunately the location is remote from the infrastructure necessary to receive gas or export coal. Although the major natural gas pipelines and the Southern Transcon railroad lines run through Northern Arizona, they are located south of this area and major pipeline or railroad infrastructure would need to be run for 100+ miles plus to make either of these options feasible. The electric railroad that serves this plant only runs about 80 miles to the coal mine, not in the direction of the Southern Transcon for most of its length. On the flipside, the existing powergrid infrastructure for these power plants and the good solar potential for this area would seem to make a major solar plant a potential option.

 

[UN1Xnut]

Maybe it's time to convert it to a solar or wind farm? The cover image looks like the area could easily support it. Might not save all the jobs, but some is better than none.

My money is on a solar replacement with supplemental natural gas.

Solar is already a thing in Arizona:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_Arizona

Wind, sadly, isn't really much of an option in Arizona as there's a shocking lack of wind. Said lack of wind is part of why Phoenix in the Valley of the Sun is one of the most polluted cities in the country according to the EPA.

 

[Deleted member 330960]

Maybe it's time to convert it to a solar or wind farm? The cover image looks like the area could easily support it. Might not save all the jobs, but some is better than none.

But there's probably a better area to do it.

The coal plant is there because the coal (and water) are there.

If your building a new solar/wind farm, you put it on cheaper, easier to reach land (for construction access).

Yes. If possible, you also build it close to where you need the electricity because there are no issues with emissions and you have less power line losses or power lines to build even.

 

[foetusinc]

Maybe it's time to convert it to a solar or wind farm? The cover image looks like the area could easily support it. Might not save all the jobs, but some is better than none.

But there's probably a better area to do it.

The coal plant is there because the coal (and water) are there.

If your building a new solar/wind farm, you put it on cheaper, easier to reach land (for construction access).

Yes. If possible, you also build it close to where you need the electricity.

This location does already have the high voltage lines in place to feed the grid, so there's that. 2 gigawatts of transmission capacity doesn't come for free.

 

[Null_Space]

Maybe it's time to convert it to a solar or wind farm? The cover image looks like the area could easily support it. Might not save all the jobs, but some is better than none.

But there's probably a better area to do it.

The coal plant is there because the coal (and water) are there.

If your building a new solar/wind farm, you put it on cheaper, easier to reach land (for construction access).

Yes. If possible, you also build it close to where you need the electricity because there are no issues with emissions and you have less power line losses or power lines to build even.

Right, I could very easily see the CAP moving to solar, seems like a no-brainer (especially if they can efficiently use "intermittent" power). But then you'd build the solar in western Arizon, not Northern.

 

[Matty]

It's a bummer about the jobs, but I hope Navajo closes for 2 reasons:

I live only a couple of hundred miles away as the crow flies and am no doubt breathing some of it's output as I type.

The air quality and visibility in the grand canyon, and the entire four corners region will likely improve.

 

[punksmurph]

Too bad they can't build a natural gas plant to keep some of the job. Let's see what temporary President Trump has to say, seeing as he ran on saving coal.

they would have to build a NG plant and a pipeline to it. would that be a smart use of capital and would all parties agree? no idea

Depends on cost and needs, I would say that with the area being remote that solar and wind may be a far better payoff. The electrical lines already exist and the transport of materials for construction have to happen with NG or renewable. But you don't have to pipe in NG and add big infrastructure for it so the overall cost and maintenance would be lower offering a better return. Plus its way easy to sell a green project than another plant with emissions.

 

[MDCCCLV]

Coal is a sensitive issue in the native community. Helping the economy is a powerful lure but lots of others have chosen not to go for heavily polluting coal in order to keep their reservation lands clean, even if it means going without that money.

 

[Null_Space]

Maybe it's time to convert it to a solar or wind farm? The cover image looks like the area could easily support it. Might not save all the jobs, but some is better than none.

But there's probably a better area to do it.

The coal plant is there because the coal (and water) are there.

If your building a new solar/wind farm, you put it on cheaper, easier to reach land (for construction access).

Yes. If possible, you also build it close to where you need the electricity.

This location does already have the high voltage lines in place to feed the grid, so there's that. 2 gigawatts of transmission capacity doesn't come for free.

but it's not free.

To continue using the site(and those lines) you have to pay $50M a year to the Navajo Nation.

 

[zarkonite]

They decided that the plant’s coal-powered electricity just can’t compete with plants burning natural gas.

So much for Obama's war on coal, are you saying that there are cheaper and more convenient sources of energy? BLASPHEMY

 

[Nemon]

Navajo Nation - they have area of 27,000+ sq mi

That alone can be more then enough for Solar + Wind farms.

Just for compare size wise with some states:

Maryland State - 12,000+ sq mi
West Virginia State - 24,000+ sq mi
Ohio State - 44,000+ sq mi

To install 1 GW of solar - simple math:

PV module at being 24% efficient, that would translates to installed capacity of 0.24 GW/km2

So for 1 GW we need 5 km2 of space or around 2-ish sq miles

Let's say I did super bad math (I spent like just 5 min to check on this) and efficiency factor is only 15% and for whatever reason I will double the space.

That will be still be around 8 sq miles for 1 GW-ish

I found reference point in India 648 MW in around 4 sq miles.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science ... ant-india/

Arizona have great location, so sun radiation levels are great!

For sure, solar dont work over night, but just this numbers shows they can easy convert and start making lots of power and just sell it to anyone who need's! (California is close!)

I would say Navajo Nation have lots to look forward to!

 

[Whiner42]

The decline of coal is brought to you courtesy of fracking.

Always pays to remember that.

 

[thohac]

They decided that the plant’s coal-powered electricity just can’t compete with plants burning natural gas.

So much for Obama's war on coal, are you saying that there are cheaper and more convenient sources of energy? BLASPHEMY

In the alternative facts Universe, those coal jobs are already on the way

 

[bobrox]

YAY!!!! For once sanity prevails.

 

[Theinsanegamer]

How is this going to impact Trump's plans to Make America Great Again with Coal Mining? I am not getting it. Somebody help me out please. Surely with Lamar 's help and direction the EPA is going to declare coal power plants as the bestest and cleanest in a few weeks?

Nope, instead your going to bankrupt a native tribe who has depended on working on at the mine and plant to provide for themselves. Instead you would rather them live off federal funds or do what most other tribes have turned to, put up a casino. Yeah, much better plan. Geez.

Plant could be converted to gas, however apparently the location and funds to do so are not there. Solar or wind farm would most likely cost just as much as converting plant which appear not to be available.

Obama was correct in his speech about coal. Paraphrased - "You can keep your coal plant but you will go broke under him." Hopefully new administration can find an alternate solution like scrubbers on the stacks or modifying the plant to be super heated steam version.

You can make all the fancy modifications you want, coal is coal, and coal if filthy. It is an outdated energy source.

We should be accelerating our decommissioning of these outdated plants, and replacing them with something better. As for the navajo, yes it sucks to loose jobs. But the warning signs have been there for a very, very long time that coal was on it's way out. This isnt coming as a surprise to anybody other then those with their head stuck in the dirt.

Perhaps, given their location, something along the lines of a molten salt reactor could be built, if those ever get out of the experimental phase and enter mass production.

 

[truthyboy15]

You can make all the fancy modifications you want, coal is coal, and coal if filthy. It is an outdated energy source.

We should be accelerating our decommissioning of these outdated plants, and replacing them with something better. As for the navajo, yes it sucks to loose jobs. But the warning signs have been there for a very, very long time that coal was on it's way out. This isnt coming as a surprise to anybody other then those with their head stuck in the dirt.

Perhaps, given their location, something along the lines of a molten salt reactor could be built, if those ever get out of the experimental phase and enter mass production.

you missed my earlier comment where I said NGS was originally suppose to be some hydroelectric dams that Navajo Nation opposed in favor of a coal plant. whoops

 

[Digger]

Power plant, indian reservation...

anyone ever ready "Give me Liberty" by Frank Miller?
We all remember how that turned out...

 

[LeftCoastRusty]

This is one of those really tough issues with no win-win solutions apparent. The plant is a HUGE polluter...right next to some of the most amazing geologic features in the world. Seems like a no-brainer to cheer the closure.

However if you've been on the Navajo reservation, you know there is a LOT of poverty. To think this might result in the loss of 900+ jobs is just horrifying to consider.

I don't have a quick solution. And I'd be skeptical of those who claim to have one.

 

[Akemi]

Said it before and I'll say it again. Coal is dead. Politicians can promise all they like about reviving the coal industry, but nobody wants dirty power from coal. Even China!

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/18/worl ... .html?_r=0

We need to fund reeducation of the coal workers and move them into jobs that will actually be there for them in the future. Currently natural gas is the clearer fossil fuel with wind and solar being the investment of the future (which we better make now unless we want to hand the lead over to Germany or China). That also means infrastructure investments in states to update the power grid. There's how the fed can promote jobs.

 

[Random John Smith Guy]

Maybe it's time to convert it to a solar or wind farm? The cover image looks like the area could easily support it. Might not save all the jobs, but some is better than none.

Solar takes up way too much space. I'd say the area is ripe for a nuclear plant, though. New nuclear plants can easily output 1GW per reactor, take up little area, aren't more of an eyesore than the current plant, are more or less completely clean, and once built are very unlikely to be underpriced by other forms of energy- all the real cost is in the initial outlay. The location is pretty good, too. Middle of nowhere, meltdown concerns minimal, flooding and seismic activity no real problem, and they have the water and high voltage lines. Plus, they're near Yucca Mountain, if that opens (which it ought to now that Harry Reid is gone). If the Navajos sign on, they could get billions of dollars injected into the region to build a nuclear power plant. And if my understanding is correct, you wouldn't have to bother with the NRC as long as the Navajos could get the Sec of the Interior to sign on, which shouldn't be hard.

 

[khory]

I hope the Navajo's have been working on a contingency plan. The writing has been on the wall for some time regarding coal. I hope they had the foresight to plan ahead.

 

[Theinsanegamer]

Maybe it's time to convert it to a solar or wind farm? The cover image looks like the area could easily support it. Might not save all the jobs, but some is better than none.

Solar takes up way too much space. I'd say the area is ripe for a nuclear plant, though. New nuclear plants can easily output 1GW per reactor, take up little area, aren't more of an eyesore than the current plant, are more or less completely clean, and once built are very unlikely to be underpriced by other forms of energy- all the real cost is in the initial outlay. The location is pretty good, too. Middle of nowhere, meltdown concerns minimal, flooding and seismic activity no real problem, and they have the water and high voltage lines. Plus, they're near Yucca Mountain, if that opens (which it ought to now that Harry Reid is gone). If the Navajos sign on, they could get billions of dollars injected into the region to build a nuclear power plant. And if my understanding is correct, you wouldn't have to bother with the NRC as long as the Navajos could get the Sec of the Interior to sign on, which shouldn't be hard.

What do you have against solar? This is the second comment you have made in this thread claiming solar has no good space.

I mean, are you BLIND? Do you see the picture in this article, the gigantic space around that plant, lots of flat land with nothing on it, prime for solar panels?

Get that "too much space" BS argument out of here.

And while I agree with nuclear, there is way too much resistance towards nuclear right now. That is an expensive, prolonged fight the navajo cannot afford right now.

I hope the Navajo's have been working on a contingency plan. The writing has been on the wall for some time regarding coal. I hope they had the foresight to plan ahead.

Given the crippling poverty still common in the area of the navajo, I'm going to go with "no" on the "do they have a contingency plan" option. The coal plant provided lots of jobs, the the economic issues facing this area are massive, and the plant was not enough to change that.

 

[SmokeTest]

“The decision by the utility owners of [Navajo Generating Station] is based on the rapidly changing economics of the energy industry, which has seen natural gas prices sink to record lows and become a viable long-term and economical alternative to coal power.”

But Trump keeps telling me that it's the evil liberals who hate rural America killing coal jobs out of spite. And Trump also says he's a huge supporter of natural gas. If this is true, then Trump is a pathological liar blaming his political opponents for the outcome of policies he supports and the people who voted for him were conned by pretty lies they wanted to believe more than they wanted to be informed. And those same people will lose their shirts while people like me who voted against Trump get tax breaks paid for by the poorest people in the country.

But that's not a world I want to live in, so I choose not to believe it...said millions of Trump voters who are going to regret their decision very much sooner or later.

 

[jhvance]

The decision, if it stands, is truly positive for regional air quality and the planet's climate, but a mixed blessing if the other 'shoe' drops. Others here have opined on the issues of replacement power to serve needs of regional users, but the severe financial loss to the Navajo Nation as a consequence of the plant's potential closure could very possibly change many of its citizens' dissenting views toward the proposed Grand Canyon Escalade project -- particularly if the latter's backers can pitch it as part of some revenue/jobs substitute strategy and restructure their plan for the Nation to front most of that project's infrastructure costs in the short-run.

 

[Pusher of Buttons]

Somewhat off topic but...

You have to love a "Business President" who didn't understand coal is going under because it costs more than natural gas, but blamed damned liberals instead.

I'm sure he'll threaten them to keep it open, mandate lower wages for the workers, and tell them they can save money but getting rid of any environmental controls.

 

[FTLAUDMAN]

Virtues of energy sources aside, this will have a devastating effect on the local economy. My wife is Navajo and her family works at the plant. If it's not the largest employer in the area, it's certainly the best paying.

The level of poverty on the reservation feels... unamerican. About 40% of the people living there still don't have running water. It's common to see homes with no electricity.

Whatever the reasons that led to the poverty there, there's no denying this plant closing will make their economic hardships much worse.

 

[theSeb]

Maybe it's time to convert it to a solar or wind farm? The cover image looks like the area could easily support it. Might not save all the jobs, but some is better than none.

But there's probably a better area to do it.

The coal plant is there because the coal (and water) are there.

If your building a new solar/wind farm, you put it on cheaper, easier to reach land (for construction access).

Actually one of the major issues with solar and wind is that most of the best spots are already occupied by wind and solar plants, or real estate far beyond affordability. It's the ugly problem that solar and wind faces, or one of them- even as material costs decrease, the yields will decrease because the number of suitable locations will drop.

Do you get paid by the coal industry, or something? It's the only way I can rationalise the tripe you post in all stories related to this topic.

 

[truthyboy15]

Given the crippling poverty still common in the area of the navajo, I'm going to go with "no" on the "do they have a contingency plan" option. The coal plant provided lots of jobs, the the economic issues facing this area are massive, and the plant was not enough to change that.

Solar isn't extremely energy efficient and they wouldn't provide any real meaningful long-term jobs. never-mind the fact many wouldn't want to look at them in such a natural area.