Ukraine is game to you? Part deux.

Hap

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I only see two alternative suggestions

1. Hitting non protected targets - maybe? Kyiv is hit often enough and I bet there's a Patriot there.
2. Severe interceptor shortage - but as the article says, the shortage is not new. The dive in interception rate is. FTA:



So, a nothingburger of an article then, 2 alternative suggestions, 1 new to me, hitting lower value targets with BM is a reasonable but rather stupid idea, but none explains it away. I mean, the lessons and implications block literally says



And this is exactly what I was saying - Russia gets to test a fresh batch every few weeks and check if their tweak worked. Lockheed Martin, Raytheon needs Trump to say okay and someone to fund it before they can send over a new hardware patch. This asymmetry favors the Russians. But at least they get telemetry so it's not totally hopeless.




You like to throw out claims like they are obviously true without any supporting material. Care to drop a link?


What is known

PAC-3 MSE has a ring of 180 tiny solid fuel rocket motors near the nose for course correction. It has crazy agility, but no sustained Delta-V required to hit something that changed course and you are already at Mach 5+. The original intercept course must be valid and bring it near, it cannot chase.

THAAD is more like a conventional rocket. It has a Liquid Divert and Attitude Control System for control, but it doesn't do snap high g direction changes.


The problem

To intercept something, you need to pull 3-5x the G-force of the target.





PAC-3 could pull 100g+ for a split second, solid rocket motors in the nose are good for that, but you have limited shots, fire and it burns until it runs out, and you can't relight it. You don't want them to burn for too long either - you don't want to U-turn, so fuel per rocket is very limited. If you are lucky, you can hit one if it doesn't wiggle too much, but it sure sounds like a challenge.

THAAD has the fuel to correct, but its airframe and sensor loop are designed for smoother exo-atmospheric adjustments, not the violent 90g snaps required to counter a hypersonic jink inside the atmosphere.

THAAD has the disadvantage that it engages outside the atmosphere, or at least where air is thinner and fins won't help -> no fins. You can't nudge the nose and let the tail do the hard work, you need boosters big enough to dump Delta-V into course corrections. It is designed against mostly ballistic threats with 5-10g of agility, so ~40g total would easily defeat them (seems like a lot for liquid motors but probably the design spec, they know the x3 rule). Now Iskander / Kinzhal pulls 20-30g, THAAD as it is, is doomed, and v6.0 upgrade is moved up from 2032 to 2027. This alone signals the gap in capability, you don't rush an order (2032 to 2027) if all is well.


But THAAD is useless for a different, super simple reason: it has an operational floor of 40 km, below which its infrared seeker is blinded by air heating up the nose. It's for exoatmospheric interception, for real ballistic missiles. It launches using a booster, stage separation at t+17, wait a bit, and then ditch the shroud protecting the sensitive IR seeker when you reach 40000 meters or ~0.2% of sea pressure level or "flight level 1300".

Iskander, Kinzhal's paths peak at 50km and is specifically designed to fly mostly between 40-50km. It flies just high enough to be out of reach of lower tier systems but low enough that THAAD / SM-3 often cannot engage.

So, THAAD = no go by default. They found a nice gap in the missile defense.

Aster 30's PIF-PAF is designed to pull 60-100g continuously during the terminal phase, something PAC-2/3 cannot do, but we don't have enough of those.


There's also a second problem, you can't hit what you cannot track, and some trajectory changes are specifically meant to break the radar track - by moving outside "where it should be" and where the radar is looking. The 30g maneuver is meant to glitch outside the radar's search gate. To add insult to injury, each missile has up to 6 decoys with a thermal signature (for IR seekers), a thermal generator, active EW, and is probably shaped to reflect brighter or just as bright in the bands used for AD radars (easiest of all 3, enlarging radar cross section is far easier than minimizing it / stealth). Jerk, release 6 decoys and the radar blinks (loses contact, goes to wide beam) suddenly sees 7 things flying towards it and need to calculate new tracks. But this may be an easier fix than physics of the interceptor - it's an AESA, just program it to look wider and accept a fainter return, now you know it can and will glitch with 30g.

---

The fix in THAAD v6 is actually pretty simple in concept. Drive a Patriot M903 launcher next to the big THAAD system, plug it in. If stuff comes flying below the 40-50km minimum altitude, it can shoot a PAC-3 at it instead, but with much improved guidance and hopefully a better hit rate. It's stop gap, and explains why it can be fielded this quickly. By seeing the missile much earlier, you can track and hopefully predict its path faster, and with a much more powerful radar, you can scan wider to not lose track.


The real fix is a third layer - SM-3 kills in space (> 100km), THAAD > 40 km, SM-6 has a ceiling of 30km, Patriot 20km. Glide Phase Interceptor targets stuff in the 20-70 km range, so Iskander, Kinzhal, but also several of the Chinese not-quite-ballistic missiles with glide capability. But that's a 2029+ project, with remote sensing (Hypersonic and Ballistic Tracking Space Sensor) as primary guidance, land/ship based radars can't see far enough because of the earth is a sphere.

Once it is deployed, you're golden. Ukraine knows where the damned Iskanders and Kinzhals are, there are plenty of maps with incomings including ballistics, but you can't hit them until the last 60 seconds and ~100km range. Spend a few seconds establishing target, calculating track and determining if it is a credible threat, and you have not much left for 20s flight time to intercept. Lose track once and you're almost too late. But with GPI, you can hit it in cruise and minutes earlier, and in a phase it cannot glitch, no air, fins don't work.


Ukraine sped this up. HBTSS was a science project with no deadline, then Russia launched a Zircon and scared US planners into action and got funding for it. GPI was aiming for mid 2030s deployment, and FY2024 NDAA mandate ordered initial operational capability by end of 2029. The race is on and we're reacting to already deployed weapons with future upgrades but once delivered, I don't see cruise missiles / low flying ballistics winning this, there's not much they can do except releasing decoys.


If you are wondering why not use SM-6 against Iskander - it uses fins to steer, but lacks the nose cone rocket motors of PAC-3, so it cannot pull that many G's. It still can't hit Kinzhal / Iskander during cruise, and in terminal dive phase, it's a big question if it can get near enough to blast it with its fragmentation warhead. Block IB with a bigger rocket motor is supposed to make it fly much higher and faster, possibly hitting these silly 40-50km missiles during the cruise phase, where they also cannot pull many g's due to lack of air. But that is another future upgrade and a much needed one, quasi ballistic missiles are a threat with no answer at sea.
I wanted to follow up - I did some research to find what was in the public domain.

Your initial statement was that THAAD was no good against maneuvering threats, it is - just not all of them. That was my counter assertion. I was assuming you were making a blanket statement - if you weren’t - sorry.

As for breaking radar track, that’s really, really hard against a TYP-2, SPY-1 or LRDR. Secondly, sensor fusion is a thing now - it’s amazing what you can do when you combine input from two completely different types of radar.

Especially for tracking Hypersonics, there is new technology in development (I have no idea if it will work - it’s way over my head) that’s the stuff of science fiction.

Also, at the top tier - SBI is in work.

I do apologize for not linking detailed documentation - so please feel free to not believe me/take it at face value. I have worked on/around development of all the systems you brought up (except GPI, closest I got there was an interview) - which means I’m extremely careful about what I say/link to (despite Hangfire thinking I’m not careful enough). In other words, this is not a Discord War Thunder server, I’m not Air Force, and I have nothing to prove.
 

Hangfire

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It's all public.

There is a hell of a lot of unclassified stuff I would like to say, but will not because I don't know if it's public or not.
The hardware we bought at the time for P(Y) access wasn't though and all the painful painful painful paperwork and forms and etc for it... oh god and the security around it... gaaaah
 
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Hangfire

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Signal
Chat
Is
Free
The name of one of my Signal Chatrooms with Veteran buddies.

1763497114006.png


;):sneaky::biggreen::p:D
 

Technarch

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Guess he still wants that peace prize:


View: https://bsky.app/profile/maks23.bsky.social/post/3m5yq7pntic2b

The U.S. has signalled to Zelensky that Ukraine must accept a U.S.-drafted framework to end the war with Russia that proposes Kyiv giving up territory and some weapons, - ReutersThe proposals included cutting the size of Ukraine's armed forces, among other things.


And it went over about as well as one would expect:


View: https://bsky.app/profile/maks23.bsky.social/post/3m5yty2jvdk2i

The meeting between Zelenskyy and Witkoff in Turkey was canceled after it became clear that Zelenskyy was not interested in discussing the US President's peace plan,


As the saying goes, "It's a good thing they're so stupid."
 

Hap

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Technarch

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Norwegian Nobel Peace Prize committee should just tell him he has no chance in hell, with the extrajudicial killings in South America and just yesterday, trying to whitewash MBS.

Just wag their fingers, shake their heads.

On the contrary, they should tell him he can have it if he permanently kicks Russia out of Ukraine, fires Stephen Miller, disbands ICE, ends all support for Netanyahu, and pulls the Navy out of the Caribbean.
 

goates

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Guess he still wants that peace prize:


View: https://bsky.app/profile/maks23.bsky.social/post/3m5yq7pntic2b




And it went over about as well as one would expect:


View: https://bsky.app/profile/maks23.bsky.social/post/3m5yty2jvdk2i




As the saying goes, "It's a good thing they're so stupid."

Here's a link to the Reuters article as the Maks account rarely seems to include them.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraines-zelenskiy-set-talks-turkey-new-peace-drive-2025-11-19/

The request for Ukraine to give Russia weapons may underscore how depleted Moscow is now. Kiev may have more leverage than is generally believed.
Not sure they are proposing that Ukraine hands over weapons to Russia, just that Ukraine will have to partially disarm.
 

wireframed

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So Ukraine signed a mineral deal in order to get no concessions, and now Trump wants them to give up arms and territory in exchange for more no concessions?

Well hot damn, how does one get that kind of deal? Give up strength and land, in return for more Russian invasions? Sounds too good to be true. Next you'll tell me I can give away my cake and not eat it too!

I wonder at what point the US contribution is so meaningless and riddled with demands and outright Russian interference, that Ukraine just decides to entirely drop any pretense of involving the US.

We aren't there yet, not least because the EU unfortunately also donates things the US needs to be on board with, but it's getting to where it's difficult to see what value the US brings. Especially when you can never really trust their promises. One day Trump is considering sending a handful of missiles, the next he decides he needs some form of compensation.
 

Bonusround

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One day Trump is considering sending a handful of missiles, the next he decides he needs some form of compensation.
What makes us think this is the final reversal? Give it another few weeks.

Sad and embarrassing? Yes. Permanent? Not likely.
 

wireframed

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Rumors are floating in Europe about this new Trump's 'peace plan'. Plan apparently includes full Russian wishlist. Reports claim that main Russian 'concession' is... promise (no joke)... to not conduct any further attacks on Ukraine or other European countries.
I imagine it was like in The Dictator, where he keeps trying to say they only use nuclear power for peaceful purposes, but starts laughing every time he tries to finish the sentence.

I know Russia enjoys trolling, but how do any of the diplomats involved not just respond to such absurdities with “Oh, like the existing treaty to respect Ukraines sovereignty…? Yeah, pull the other one!” Or just outright laugh in their faces.

I’ve met toddlers that are more convincing than that. :p
 

Alexander

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Rumors are floating in Europe about this new Trump's 'peace plan'. Plan apparently includes full Russian wishlist. Reports claim that main Russian 'concession' is... promise (no joke)... to not conduct any further attacks on Ukraine or other European countries.

Russia doesn't really have any reason to make concessions. They have three times as many troops inside Ukraine as Ukraine does, the latter is struggling to recruit, experiencing mass desertions and military age men fleeing abroad, and the pace that Russia is capturing territory is accelerating.

So the choices are [1] Ukraine/the West accept the list of Russia's demands from the outset of the war, [2] full NATO boots-on-the-ground intervention (which is not going to happen and potentially ends in nuclear war), or [3] the war continues and Russia takes more and more Ukrainian territory.
 
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Demento

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Russia has zero reasons to make any concessions in their demands since the start of the war until their internal economy actually crashes.

Based on reports here and opinions of economists, that could be next week and it could be 2028. No-one knows. But it's a sure bet that Russia will keep up a strong front right up until the nanosecond that they fall apart, because that's what they do.
 
Russia doesn't really have any reason to make concessions. They have three times as many troops inside Ukraine as Ukraine does,
Russia has somewhere around 600-700k troops in theatre, with Ukraine having 880k. Granted, some of those Ukrainians are support units, which Russia has out of theatre, but Russia having 3x the troops of Ukraine is completely delusional.
https://www.cfr.org/in-brief/comparing-size-and-capabilities-russian-and-ukrainian-militaries
the latter is struggling to recruit, experiencing mass desertions and military age men fleeing abroad,
So is Russia:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2025/03/08/50000-russian-troops-have-deserted/

https://meduza.io/en/news/2025/08/19/pace-of-russian-army-recruitment-falls-to-two-year-low-istories#:~:text=According to iStories, the pace of Russian,2024, when 92,800 Russians collected the bonuses.

and the pace that Russia is capturing territory is accelerating.
No it isn't.
https://news.err.ee/1609806270/edf-colonel-russian-advances-in-ukraine-slowest-in-past-five-months
https://tvpworld.com/89519814/uk-defence-intelligence-says-russian-gains-in-ukraine-decreasing

"Russian territorial gains in Ukraine have been steadily decreasing since the summer, with Ukrainian land losses in September equaling just over half of those seen the month before, according to analysis from the UK defense ministry.

The ministry’s Defense Intelligence said on Thursday that Russian forces seized around 250 square kilometers of Ukrainian land in September – down from 465 square kilometers taken in August.

The decrease is part of a wider trend of “month on month decreases in ground taken” by Russia from June to August, the organization said.
"

Yes, it was back up to about August numbers in October, but that's still not an accelerating trend.

1763648550976.png


So the choices are [1] Ukraine/the West accept the list of Russia's demands from the outset of the war, [2] full NATO boots-on-the-ground intervention (which is not going to happen and potentially ends in nuclear war), or [3] the war continues and Russia takes more and more Ukrainian territory.
Russia is taking minute areas of Ukraine. The territorial losses are completely inconsequential compared to the economic effects. The rate is less than 1% of Ukraine's territory per year.

1763648656834.png


Ukraine's only reasonable option is to keep fighting smart, minimizing it's own losses and slowly trading space for time while whittling away at Russia's economy. The Russian economy won't collapse tomorrow, but they can't keep going like this forever either. Recruitment bonuses are being cut drastically:
https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-recruitment-soldiers-ukraine-war-personnel-bonuses/33572319.html

Urals oil is now being traded for 36 dollars per barrel:
https://oilprice.com/Energy/Crude-Oil/Russias-Oil-Price-Plummets-to-36-Per-Barrel.html

While the budget calls for nearly 70 dollars:
https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2025...e-for-lowest-oil-prices-since-pandemic-a88810

Inflation rate is ~26%
https://euromaidanpress.com/2025/10/16/russia-war-economy-collapse-timeline/

The military budget is decreasing for 2026:
https://www.reuters.com/world/europ...-slightly-2026-draft-budget-shows-2025-09-29/

The national wealth fund is starting to look dicey:

1763649277932.png


I could go on, but the idea that Russia can just keep going at its current pace for years isn't really in line with reality.
 
I imagine it was like in The Dictator, where he keeps trying to say they only use nuclear power for peaceful purposes, but starts laughing every time he tries to finish the sentence.

I know Russia enjoys trolling, but how do any of the diplomats involved not just respond to such absurdities with “Oh, like the existing treaty to respect Ukraines sovereignty…? Yeah, pull the other one!” Or just outright laugh in their faces.

I’ve met toddlers that are more convincing than that. :p
The diplomats involved don't respond at all because there are no diplomats involved. This is a BS deal cooked up between Witkoff and Putin. Witkoff is a real estate developer, has no diplomatic experience, and is either a complete idiot or essentially works for Putin (could be just currying favor for business deals). He spouted all that drivel about the portrait that Putin had painted of Trump, etc.

Everything Witkoff has come up with is how Ukraine should surrender. There are other opinions in Trumps gaggle of backstabbing scum, however.
 
The diplomats involved don't respond at all because there are no diplomats involved. This is a BS deal cooked up between Witkoff and Putin. Witkoff is a real estate developer, has no diplomatic experience, and is either a complete idiot or essentially works for Putin (could be just currying favor for business deals). He spouted all that drivel about the portrait that Putin had painted of Trump, etc.

Everything Witkoff has come up with is how Ukraine should surrender. There are other opinions in Trumps gaggle of backstabbing scum, however.
One wonders how much of these surrender plans are driven by Witkoff, and how involved Trump actually is. Not that I think that Trump actually knows what he's doing, but it seems like it's been a while since he's talked this particular kind of drivel about the war.
 

Anacher

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The diplomats involved don't respond at all because there are no diplomats involved. This is a BS deal cooked up between Witkoff and Putin. Witkoff is a real estate developer, has no diplomatic experience, and is either a complete idiot or essentially works for Putin (could be just currying favor for business deals). He spouted all that drivel about the portrait that Putin had painted of Trump, etc.

Everything Witkoff has come up with is how Ukraine should surrender. There are other opinions in Trumps gaggle of backstabbing scum, however.

Witkoff is a toddler compared to the people he is negotiating with. Utterly clueless. Over and over basically just agreeing to what Russia wants, forcing a Ukrainian surrender.
 

Anacher

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One wonders how much of these surrender plans are driven by Witkoff, and how involved Trump actually is. Not that I think that Trump actually knows what he's doing, but it seems like it's been a while since he's talked this particular kind of drivel about the war.

I feel like Trump has a default state, which is "Russia has suffered, so they should get what they want, let's make a deal!", followed by Russia somehow doing something to annoy Trump "Putin, staaaahpppp!", minor things given to Ukraine, and then start over when Trump's attention has been elsewhere.
 
I swear we get a "peace plan" from the Trump administration about every other month. And its always the same: Ukraine gives up land, disbands its army and gets nothing in return.

I'm not sure its worth reading too much into these, because they never go anywhere.

Its just Trump trying to do his domestic policy method of operations, where he just declares shit and people go along with it, only to find that isn't how foreign policy works.
 

goates

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Hadn't seen this idea before. This latest so-called peace deal includes Russia keeping the occupied territory in exchange for some kind of lease rental fee.

A US-proposed 28-point peace plan for Ukraine reportedly includes a provision for Moscow to gain control of eastern Donbas in exchange for paying a “rental fee,” The Telegraph reported Thursday, citing sources familiar with the plan.

Kyiv would retain legal ownership of the territories, the sources said.

The plan, reportedly developed by US and Russian presidential envoys Steve Witkoff and Kirill Dmitriev, would also see Ukrainian forces clear the remaining non-occupied areas of Donbas, turning them into a “demilitarized zone,” Axios reported on Wednesday.

https://www.kyivpost.com/post/64601
 

TheGnome

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I want to see a Peace Plan that goes like this:
1) Immediate cease fire
2) Russia withdraws from Ukrainian territory (including Crimea)
3) Russia returns all Ukrainian citizens, including prisoners and abducted children; Ukraine returns all Russian prisoners.
4) Seized Russian assets used to rebuild/repair Ukraine, clear mines and unexploded ordinance in Ukrainian territory
5) Putin to stand trial at the Hague for War Crimes
6) Russia to demilitarize, exchanging nuclear arsenal for necessary food and humanitarian aid for the next decade as it tries to rebuild itself as a sustainable society.
 

Fingolfin

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Hadn't seen this idea before. This latest so-called peace deal includes Russia keeping the occupied territory in exchange for some kind of lease rental fee.



https://www.kyivpost.com/post/64601

"The plan, reportedly developed by US and Russian presidential envoys Steve Witkoff and Kirill Dmitriev..."

Hahahahahaha and what kind of HOA will these two Real Estate goons implement? /S

You watch, if Witkoff gets a sweet casino/hotel deal out of this. Wonder how trump will take the news?
 

wireframed

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Hadn't seen this idea before. This latest so-called peace deal includes Russia keeping the occupied territory in exchange for some kind of lease rental fee.



https://www.kyivpost.com/post/64601
Lol, sure. And in a few years, there will be a “definitely-not-influenced-by-Russia” election where the leased territories vote to secede and join Russia. And Russia sees no other recourse than to allow them to join.
 

Anacher

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I swear we get a "peace plan" from the Trump administration about every other month. And its always the same: Ukraine gives up land, disbands its army and gets nothing in return.

I'm not sure its worth reading too much into these, because they never go anywhere.

Its just Trump trying to do his domestic policy method of operations, where he just declares shit and people go along with it, only to find that isn't how foreign policy works.

In the various headlines of this "agreement" it talks about security agreements from the US. If I was Ukraine, the security agreements would be "station US troops all along that border, then maybe we'll talk".