Turkish F-16 shoots down Russian jet for disputed airspace violation

One Russian airman dies, plane crashes in Syrian territory; conflicting radar tracks.

Read the whole story

 

[Starholme]

Typo in the last paragraph: "Russia President Barack Obama today urged Turkey and Russia"
edit: nevermind, already fixed!

 

[potato44819]

Starholme[/url]":1mfdqm8q]Typo in the last paragraph: "Russia President Barack Obama today urged Turkey and Russia"
edit: nevermind, already fixed!

thought it was fox news for a second...

 

[Nowicki]

The important details are the ones in dispute here. For example. did Turkey give all the warnings they said they did? If they did how did they warn them as many times as they stated about airspace violations in 2-3 seconds? Also is it within NATO and combat norms to shoot down a plane that quick after they enter airspace?

 

[Deleted member 192806]

Do the Russians only use GLONASS for military navigation?

 

[Onyx Spartan II]

Nowicki[/url]":1lbh5cb5]The important details are the ones in dispute here. For example. did Turkey give all the warnings they said they did? If they did how did they warn them as many times as they stated about airspace violations in 2-3 seconds? Also is it within NATO and combat norms to shoot down a plane that quick after they enter airspace?

The BBC has a good summary of what's known right now.

The planes were warned 10 times over the space of five minutes via an "emergency" channel and asked to change direction [Turkey's permanent UN representative Halit Cevik said].

Both planes disregarded the warnings and then flew 2.19km (1.36 miles) and 1.85km (1.15 miles) into Turkey for 17 seconds from 09:24:05 (07:24:05 GMT).

"Following the violation, plane 1 left Turkish national airspace. Plane 2 was fired at while in Turkish national airspace by Turkish F-16s performing air combat patrolling in the area," Mr Cevik wrote. "Plane 2 crashed onto the Syria side of the Turkish-Syrian border."

Turkey updated its rules of engagement after Syria shot down a Turkish jet a while back, so I think they were already a bit upset.

 

[ybz90]

This may be controversial, but I don't see Russia as completely in the wrong here. Right now, hard facts are lacking and much of the reporting is circumstantial, "he said, she said." Russia claims they never entered Turkish airspace, but even the Turkish radar report shows the Russian jet entered Turkish airspace for just a tiny two-mile strip.

Whether or not they gave ten warnings or not (doubtful, if the jet was only in Turkish airspace for "seconds"), it's hard to imagine that lethal military engagement was the appropriate response for such a minor infraction. Certainly, Turkish military officials should have known the international incident would be severe in response, but they did it anyway, just to send a message. That's not how adults commanding modern militaries should do diplomacy in this day and age.

EDIT2: The latest reporting suggests that while the Russian jet traversed the finger of Turkish air, it wasn't actually struck by until it was well into Syrian airspace again.
EDIT:

Source from NYTimes

 

[peipas]

Nowicki[/url]":2ag2aisv]The important details are the ones in dispute here. For example. did Turkey give all the warnings they said they did? If they did how did they warn them as many times as they stated about airspace violations in 2-3 seconds? Also is it within NATO and combat norms to shoot down a plane that quick after they enter airspace?

This is covered at the end of paragraph two.

The Turks claim that the jet, while clearly not mounting an attack against Turkey, was over a mile into Turkish airspace and had been repeatedly warned that it was on a course that would cross the border.

 

[S8ER01Z]

"Get off my lawn"....with missiles. Wow

 

[PhilStone]

S8ER01Z[/url]":2sq4yj5p]"Get off my lawn"....with missiles. Wow

Something Russia itself would not have hesitated to do.

 

[Deleted member 1]

I have only one word for this. Clusterfuck.

Raising tensions between Russia and NATO is not good for anyone. And distracts from the bigger problem. In my view both sides are to blame.

 

[miken32]

This seems like a big over-reaction, given that even the data from Turkey shows a few moments' incursion into a tiny isthmus of Turkish territory.

I'm no fan of Russia's current ultra-nationalist government and their attempts to restart a cold war, but seems to me like they're in the right here.

 

[pjmeli]

"The planes were warned 10 times over the space of five minutes via an "emergency" channel and asked to change direction [Turkey's permanent UN representative Halit Cevik said]."

Turkey's own radar evidence showed the plane was in Turkish airspace for 17 seconds. The statement is self-refuting.

Russia claims it's jet was shot down in Syrian airspace, and in fact crashed some 4 km from the border. He said she said, but Russia has more credibility than the insane Erdogan regime, a major funder and enabler of jihadi extremism outside of Saudi Arabia.

Not to mention most of the oil sold by ISIS to fund it's operations is to Turkey, and Erdogan's son is up to his eye teeth in that.

 

[Coriolanus]

No. Russia has no one else to blame but itself.

The SU-24 was warned repeatedly 10 times by Turkish air controllers that they are approaching Turkish territory. If they were shot down after being repeatedly warned of the incursion, it's not the fault of bad GLONASS positioning.

Instead, this seems like another in a series of Russia provocations, where Russian aircraft were trying to probe Turkish airspace to see how Turkey would respond to near-incursions. Just like when Russia tried to fly long-rang bombers carrying nuclear weapons almost to the airspace of of Alaska and the UK earlier this year.

 

[Statistical]

GLONASS? I am surprised the receiver didn't have this

Seriously GLONASS has always sucked and probably always will. Honestly short of WWIII the US isn't degrading GPS so Russia should just install backup GPS receivers in their jets. They also shouldn't be flying within 1km (their claim) of the border of another country. That is just stupid.

 

[WaveRunner]

ybz90[/url]":34igz883]This may be controversial, but I don't see Russia as completely in the wrong here. Right now, hard facts are lacking and much of the reporting is circumstantial, "he said, she said." Russia claims they never entered Turkish airspace, but even the Turkish radar report shows the Russian jet entered Turkish airspace for just a tiny two-mile strip.

The norm is never to even fly that close to someone else's airspace in the first place. Turkey flies daily missions over the Turkey Greece borders, except they do it at a safe distance of 30 miles.

 

[arkiel]

The Turks claim that the jet, while clearly not mounting an attack against Turkey, was over a mile into Turkish airspace and had been repeatedly warned that it was on a course that would cross the border.

I understand that Russia has turned death by a thousand tiny cuts into an art form, and that this could be the thousandth cut, real or imagined, by which Russia impugned Turkey's sovereignty. Considering what happened/is happening in the Ukraine, it doesn't seem impossible that this was in some way adequately provoked. I don't know anything about Russia's hegemonic intentions toward Turkey, though.

But goddamn, Turkey had to know this wouldn't look good. Even if the data was right, the intrusion lasted 'seconds' and Turkey knew the jet was 'clearly not mounting an attack'.

 

[Onyx Spartan II]

pjmeli[/url]":2osakr6i]"The planes were warned 10 times over the space of five minutes via an "emergency" channel and asked to change direction [Turkey's permanent UN representative Halit Cevik said]."

Turkey's own radar evidence showed the plane was in Turkish airspace for 17 seconds. The statement is self-refuting.

Russia claims it's jet was shot down in Syrian airspace, and in fact crashed some 4 km from the border. He said she said, but Russia has more credibility than the insane Erdogan regime, a major funder and enabler of jihadi extremism outside of Saudi Arabia.

Not to mention most of the oil sold by ISIS to fund it's operations is to Turkey, and Erdogan's son is up to his eye teeth in that.

The US is also backing the Turkish account currently. Even the Russian account places the planes at no more than 1km (0.6 miles) from the border, which is insanely close going very fast with a navigation system known to be inaccurate.

 

[Myntan]

Nowicki[/url]":34a7ns9b]The important details are the ones in dispute here. For example. did Turkey give all the warnings they said they did? If they did how did they warn them as many times as they stated about airspace violations in 2-3 seconds? Also is it within NATO and combat norms to shoot down a plane that quick after they enter airspace?

The important details are not terribly in dispute, other then perhaps the GPS location.

BBC reported that Turkey provided 10 warnings over 2 minutes. As for NATO combat norms, Turkey has a fairly clear policy that anything entering their airspace from Syria, that does not identify itself, is an enemy.

I've seen nothing that states the Russian aircraft responded verbally to warnings issued.

After 10 warnings, no response/identification/contesting, I'd assume the aircraft is operating under an unfriendly banner, and you don't want those over your population.

 

[ChenJenn]

I can see how many people see this as an overreaction, and it may be that Turkey was indeed just itching to shoot down a Russian plane, but I don't have a lot of sympathy for the Russian position. (I do have sympathy for the family of the pilot, the rescue person, and the family of the rescue person who were killed. Also for the pilot if they were doing what they were directed to do).

Russia seems to have developed a habit of pushing boundaries on the assumption that no-one will intervene (e.g. Ukraine) and as such I think that shooting down their plane after many warnings that it was approaching Turkey's airspace was understandable. If Russia steps over the line often enough, someone is going to slap them, and rightly so.

 

[Chmilz]

GekkePrutser[/url]":1m332daf]I have only one word for this. Clusterfuck.

Raising tensions between Russia and NATO is not good for anyone. And distracts from the bigger problem. In my view both sides are to blame.

Well, it's important to ask ourselves why Turkey is part of NATO. They're almost at Saudi Arabia-levels of dissonance with NATO objectives. We pretty much have a mutual defense pact with a nation that is accused of being party to the terrorism we're trying to fight.

 

[Mithras Angel]

pjmeli[/url]":2j77u0o4]"The planes were warned 10 times over the space of five minutes via an "emergency" channel and asked to change direction [Turkey's permanent UN representative Halit Cevik said]."

Turkey's own radar evidence showed the plane was in Turkish airspace for 17 seconds. The statement is self-refuting.

There's five minutes of "Hey, you're flying too close to our airspace - back off!" That was then followed by 17 seconds of incursion.


So it's not self-refuting - it's you not understanding the situation.

 

[Coriolanus]

Takur[/url]":ubfywduz]

ybz90[/url]":ubfywduz]This may be controversial, but I don't see Russia as completely in the wrong here. Right now, hard facts are lacking and much of the reporting is circumstantial, "he said, she said." Russia claims they never entered Turkish airspace, but even the Turkish radar report shows the Russian jet entered Turkish airspace for just a tiny two-mile strip.

Whether or not they gave ten warnings or not (doubtful, if the jet was only in Turkish airspace for "seconds"), it's hard to imagine that lethal military engagement was the appropriate response for such a minor infraction. Certainly, Turkish military officials should have known the international incident would be severe in response, but they did it anyway, just to send a message. That's not how adults commanding modern militaries should do diplomacy in this day and age.

My doubts are with the Turkish claims. The plane landed on the Syrian side and the Pilot also landed on the Syrian side. Thus, on its face value it would seem the Russians have physical evidence on their side.

Or anybody here with technical knowhow if it's in fact possible for the Russians to have been shot at while in the Turkey side of the fence and just crash landed on the Syrian side?

Uh, it's not technical know-how, it's just plain old common sense.

Jets fly at high speeds, and when they're hit, they don't immediately drop to the ground from the spot they were hit. They'll keep going for a while until they crash.

 

[Drizzt321]

miken32[/url]"mgcmk13]This seems like a big over-reaction, given that even the data from Turkey shows a few moments' incursion into a tiny isthmus of Turkish territory.

I'm no fan of Russia's current ultra-nationalist government and their attempts to restart a cold war, but seems to me like they're in the right here.

And yet, Russia also shot down a Turkish plane a short while ago.

Yes, I agree it was likely not necessary to fire, but Russia is hardly a paragon of virtue in the area.

Realistically...Russia needs to just not be flying up near the Turkish border. Problem solved. Unfortunately, it's easy in a modern military jet to cross even just a few miles without noticing it if you happen to be evading (hypothetically, say, in the case of SAMs). So I highly doubt this is the last time something like this will happy

 

[pocketdrummer]

I think people need to consider the blatant disregard Russia has shown for the territories of other countries. They've routinely trespassed into these areas to provoke a response and test the readiness of these countries. When taken as an isolated incident, it seems excessive. However, when you take historical behavior into account, Russia has finally crossed the line Turkey has drawn in the sand. Either Russia will take more care not to trespass on Turkey's airspace, or they'll use this to pull Turkey into a conflict.

On another note, I would take any input RT has to provide with a massive helping of salt.

 

[ardent]

The only thing surprising about this entire incident is that it didn't happen sooner.

The Turks giving anyone warning -- and multiple warnings at that -- is highly unusual.

They're more shoot first, shoot again, shoot a few more times, walk up to the corpse, shoot it several more times, then ask questions. Like "What's for lunch?" types.

 

[pjmeli]

"Turkey flies daily missions over the Turkey Greece borders, except they do it at a safe distance of 30 miles."

Turkey has been bombing Kurdish soldiers in Syrian territory over the past month.

 

[DNick]

I've been strongly anti-Russia since they invaded Ukraine, but I'm sorry this happened. It's too bad the bully pseudo-dictator running Turkey had to make this point in this way, and that people died as a result. And it infuriates me that he acts to provoke confrontations with Syria, the Kurds, and anyone else he doesn't like on a particular day, and then crows about how he's bulletproof as a NATO member. Turkey acts against NATO interest in many ways, not the least of which is allowing a porous border and hundreds of thousands of refugees to pass freely, and then runs to them as soon as there's a hint of trouble.

 

[BananaBonanza]

miken32[/url]":1foeb9lz]This seems like a big over-reaction, given that even the data from Turkey shows a few moments' incursion into a tiny isthmus of Turkish territory.

True. However, apparently it is common to provoke opposing countries with stunts like that, and in that context provoking means testing their defences and willingness to defend their territory. It's like bullying.

It appears that Russia has been testing Turkey's limits recently. They knew they were taking this risk and they shouldn't have. And no, Turkey shouldn't have shot that plane done, either. Both sides are more than willing to escalate, unfortunately.

Also unfortunately, there seem to be increasingly more "sides" in Syria. Things are looking worse for Syrians …

 

[mike_syn]

Takur[/url]":1i1435vv]Or anybody here with technical knowhow if it's in fact possible for the Russians to have been shot at while in the Turkey side of the fence and just crash landed on the Syrian side?

Depending on the altitude the aircraft was at, how fast it was going, and what direction it was heading, yes, it is entirely possible- likely, even- that it was engaged and probably hit in Turkish airspace, and crashed in Syrian territory.

 

[Asinar]

Statistical[/url]":1ozvd24f]Seriously GLONASS has always sucked and probably always will. Honestly short of WWIII the US isn't degrading GPS so Russia should just install backup GPS receivers in their jets.

Honestly, I'm terrified that this Syrian thing (along with the rest of the Middle East) has us barreling in that direction.

 

[omniron]

WaveRunner[/url]":1c9ccoqx]

ybz90[/url]":1c9ccoqx]This may be controversial, but I don't see Russia as completely in the wrong here. Right now, hard facts are lacking and much of the reporting is circumstantial, "he said, she said." Russia claims they never entered Turkish airspace, but even the Turkish radar report shows the Russian jet entered Turkish airspace for just a tiny two-mile strip.

The norm is never to even fly that close to someone else's airspace in the first place. Turkey flies daily missions over the Turkey Greece borders, except they do it at a safe distance of 30 miles.

Yeah, seems obvious this was a dangerous game of "but i'm not touching you!" and Russia lost.

 

[LtWiggledworth]

mike_syn[/url]":3ezbvt90]

Takur[/url]":3ezbvt90]Or anybody here with technical knowhow if it's in fact possible for the Russians to have been shot at while in the Turkey side of the fence and just crash landed on the Syrian side?

Depending on the altitude the aircraft was at, how fast it was going, and what direction it was heading, yes, it is entirely possible- likely, even- that it was engaged and probably hit in Turkish airspace, and crashed in Syrian territory.

The BBC has a an image

indicating that it passed through an isthmus of turkish territory, but was hit by the missile once it was back in Syria.

 

[omniron]

Asinar[/url]":34wwzyfr]

Statistical[/url]":34wwzyfr]Seriously GLONASS has always sucked and probably always will. Honestly short of WWIII the US isn't degrading GPS so Russia should just install backup GPS receivers in their jets.

Honestly, I'm terrified that this Syrian thing (along with the rest of the Middle East) has us barreling in that direction.

It seems like cooler heads would prevail considering what's at stake, and this wouldn't happen, but i never thought Trump would make it as far as he has, I never thought i'd see a majority of Americans turn their back on refugees.

But it seems like a conflict between Russia/China/Iran and the rest of the world could be brewing.

 

[Lagrange]

Chmilz[/url]":q6oi7f12]

GekkePrutser[/url]":q6oi7f12]I have only one word for this. Clusterfuck.

Raising tensions between Russia and NATO is not good for anyone. And distracts from the bigger problem. In my view both sides are to blame.

Well, it's important to ask ourselves why Turkey is part of NATO. They're almost at Saudi Arabia-levels of dissonance with NATO objectives. We pretty much have a mutual defense pact with a nation that is accused of being party to the terrorism we're trying to fight.

There have been a lot of claims about Turkey buying significant amounts oil from ISIS as well as either ignoring or possibly supporting them in their fight against the Kurds.

It's very worrying to have a NATO member acting against the wider wishes of the majority of the Alliance in this way.

Somehow I think the PKK might be receiving a christmas gift of a huge amount of Russian weaponry, especially MANPADs.