Trump Admin orders another coal plant to stay open

This time, a Colorado plant scheduled to shut down will be kept on standby.

See full article...

 

[fancysunrise]

I'm not too far from that plant in Michigan. We had a story in the local news the other day about how about half a billion dollars worth of clean energy projects had been axed by the Trump administration, adding on to $3 billion in clean energy manufacturing investments delayed or scrapped, for vague arbitrary reasons that were plainly animosity and corruption. A sort of state news aggregate publisher called MLive (which has its own issues but neither here nor there) did the usual and pushed the headline to its social feeds and those comment sections are smothered in hundreds of comments that sound like they're straight out of a Fox late night rant. It's good, you see, for it is good vs evil, the "evil" being clean energy (and I guess the good being coal in a plant barely holding together?) and all those jobs lost are corruption of some unknowable kind because of course anything having to do with the environment or sustainable energy security or the rest of it is inherently the work of corrupt Godless librul illegals and on and on. Pick your comment; get your unhinged stupid. And no, I don't think they were all AI bots. I mean, I've met my neighbor...

 

[Oldnoobguy]

Trump needs that coal in order to restore America’s glorious fleet of golden ironclads.

Do you mean the new Trump class battleships like this one?

 

[Cat_Herder]

They do know coal plants take days to get to the point of generating electricity unlike.

There's one major flaw in your logic: you require these legislators to actually think.

 

[AusPeter]

The tech specs for Trump Class battleships call for coal power, so gotta keep those miners employed.

What’s really weird about that “battleship” is that it calls for a rail gun and lasers, both of which necessitate lots of electrical power. But Trump is adamantly against the electric catapults on the newest aircraft carriers - because we already the steam.

And the US rail gun project was defunded 4 years ago because they couldn’t overcome major issues.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Here, there’s no emergency, is the problem. The way to prevent declaring bogus emergencies is to have consequences for those who do it.

And to enforce those consequences. Without enforcement, they're just so many words written on paper.

 

[fancysunrise]

You’re conflating nameplate capacity (MW) with actual electricity production (MWh).

Coal plants historically operate ~70–85% capacity factor. Onshore wind in the Rockies is closer to ~35–45% on a good site. That means you’d need roughly 2–2.5× more your figures just to match average energy, not peak power.

Craig’s coal plants produces baseline power. Wind produces power when weather permits. The grid is built around meeting load, not harvesting weather.

Also a synchronous coal turbine provides rotational inertia, voltage support, and frequency stability. Wind turbines do not, at least not inherently. Replacing that requires additional hardware and cost that the “29 turbines” line quietly ignores.
Those turbines are typically not co-located, require vast land footprints, new transmission corridors, and face curtailment when lines are congested. Craig’s plants sits on a compact site already wired into the grid.

These are pretty nuanced calculations that depend on how the local grid is structured but in any case, it doesn't become an issue until wind or solar is set up to provide the bulk of the power. Frequency stability is an issue but can be easily addressed (how long till the Trump admin takes this page down heh); Australia does it in yet another way and has long since solved those types of grid "problems".

As for the weather, yeah, above baseload -which most places are not - and with concern for potential disruption, you need a degree of storage. That doesn't mean the math doesn't work out.

 

[RickyP784]

They do know coal plants take days to get to the point of generating electricity unlike. So even if it was for short term emergencies it won’t work because the emergency will be over before the plant gets enough heat to generate power. It’s part of the reason the switch to natural gas happened so quickly is that they could start and stop those plants at will to meet demand.

Hey, hey, hey, hey... Stop using facts and reason to make rational, cogent arguments. That's not how things work here anymore.

 

[SomewhereAroundBarstow]

You’re conflating nameplate capacity (MW) with actual electricity production (MWh).

Coal plants historically operate ~70–85% capacity factor. Onshore wind in the Rockies is closer to ~35–45% on a good site. That means you’d need roughly 2–2.5× more your figures just to match average energy, not peak power.

Craig’s coal plants produces baseline power. Wind produces power when weather permits. The grid is built around meeting load, not harvesting weather.

Also a synchronous coal turbine provides rotational inertia, voltage support, and frequency stability. Wind turbines do not, at least not inherently. Replacing that requires additional hardware and cost that the “29 turbines” line quietly ignores.
Those turbines are typically not co-located, require vast land footprints, new transmission corridors, and face curtailment when lines are congested. Craig’s plants sits on a compact site already wired into the grid.

I wasn't conflating. When each is running at peak capacity, ~30 of the Vestas turbines will produce the same amount of power as the coal plant.

And yes, the grid is built around meeting load, which is why it's tied together nationally (with the exception of Texas) so that when one region is under-producing, others can take up the slack. So for example, when a coal plant in Colorado goes offline for maintenance there's enough surplus hydropower from Washington to offset the power diverted to Colorado. Dismissing wind turbines as a component of a resilient grid just because it's not windy 100% of the time in Colorado is a lazy canard.

The same with your "vast" footprint claim. I can get in my truck and within half an hour be driving past farms where the winter wheat crop is in, sowed around wind turbines. Those are the smart farmers who are diversifying the income from their land. The dumb ones have "No Windmill" signs on their gates and are voting against their own agricultural business interests. There's no "vast footprint" making that land unusable. And if I drive a couple miles in another direction I come to open range land unsuited for agriculture but used for grazing, where the cattle munch under more turbines.

The rest of your argument relies on ignoring hidden costs, both actual and societal, then conveniently ends with an appeal to the sunk cost fallacy. It's not much of an insight to say it costs money to build infrastructure. After all, that's how we got coal plants in the first place.

 

[FSTargetDrone]

For someone who has never spend a second of his life doing anything remotely like working, let alone working a mine, Trump sure does have a hard-on for coal.

 

[JoHBE]

The bribes to Trumpworld from the coal and AI data center lobbyists must be sweet.

Something tells me discovery would show lots of calls from old men leading coal plants to those AI people, asking "how does this Trumpcoin crypto thing work, exactly???"

 

[SomewhereAroundBarstow]

For someone who has never spend a second of his life doing anything remotely like working, let alone working a mine, Trump sure does have a hard-on for coal.

Is that a lump in your stocking or are you happy to see bribes?

 

[FSTargetDrone]

Do you mean the new Trump class battleships like this one?
View attachment 125250

Well, the Confederacy part tracks, however, I doubt Trump could identify that vessel. Apparently all he’s watched of history is “Victory at Sea.”

 

[Tofystedeth]

I wasn't conflating. When each is running at peak capacity, ~30 of the Vestas turbines will produce the same amount of power as the coal plant.

And yes, the grid is built around meeting load, which is why it's tied together nationally (with the exception of Texas) so that when one region is under-producing, others can take up the slack. So for example, when a coal plant in Colorado goes offline for maintenance there's enough surplus hydropower from Washington to offset the power diverted to Colorado. Dismissing wind turbines as a component of a resilient grid just because it's not windy 100% of the time in Colorado is a lazy canard.

The same with your "vast" footprint claim. I can get in my truck and within half an hour be driving past farms where the winter wheat crop is in, sowed around wind turbines. Those are the smart farmers who are diversifying the income from their land. The dumb ones have "No Windmill" signs on their gates and are voting against their own agricultural business interests. There's no "vast footprint" making that land unusable. And if I drive a couple miles in another direction I come to open range land unsuited for agriculture but used for grazing, where the cattle munch under more turbines.

The rest of your argument relies on ignoring hidden costs, both actual and societal, then conveniently ends with an appeal to the sunk cost fallacy. It's not much of an insight to say it costs money to build infrastructure. After all, that's how we got coal plants in the first place.

Vast stretches of land where hills used to be that we scooped out for coal.

 

[RadarLuv]

Emergency.

You keep using that word. I don't think that word means what you think it means.....

Inconceivable!

 

[cfenton]

If the Federal Government is going to force it to stay open, they should be paying for it, at least.

 

[DrewW]

Trump needs that coal in order to restore America’s glorious fleet of golden ironclads.

I’ve watched all of Ken Burns’ Civil War documentaries and read the Erik Larson book. Not once did an Ironclad get sunk by a drone. We’ll re-establish naval superiority with iron-clads while also creating jobs in Pennsylvania. /s

 

[ISUAero1986]

you can 100% know that someone is getting kickbacks from coal interests in the Shithead in Chief's administration.

 

[AusPeter]

I’ve watched all of Ken Burns’ Civil War documentaries and read the Erik Larson book. Not once did an Ironclad get sunk by a drone. We’ll re-establish naval superiority with iron-clads while also creating jobs in Pennsylvania. /s

You’re right about drones. And that explains why Trump announced that the new ballroom will have a drone free roof (seriously )

 

[AusPeter]

you can 100% know that someone is getting kickbacks from coal interests in the Shithead in Chief's administration.

You’re ignoring the pettiness of punishing those who opposed him.

Pero ¿Por qué no los dos?

 

[gsgrego]

Solar? Wind?

Nah. Murdering people and invading countries for oil.

 

[-ps-Sangloth]

For the vast majority of Trump's second term Jared Polis (Colorado's democratic governor) has managed to keep Colorado under the radar. He's made vague compliments of Trump, RFK, and other Maga figures, and the Trump administration has largely ignored Colorado. Denver hasn't gotten National Guard deployments, and while Aurora has gotten some ICE activity, it's substantially less than I would have expected, especially considering all that Tren de Aragua attention it got in the right wing news sphere.

That all seems to have stopped when Jared Polis responded "No President has jurisdiction over state law nor the power to pardon a person for state convictions. This is a matter for the courts to decide, and we will abide by court orders." when Trump told him to pardon Tina Peters on December 11th.

In the month since then:

- Trump vetoed bipartisan legislation to provide clean, filtered drinking water to southeastern Colorado.

- Trump issued an executive order specifically saying it would withhold federal broadband funding from Colorado unless Colorado withdrew it's AI anti-discrimination law.

- Trump proposed dismantling National Center for Atmospheric Research (NCAR) in Boulder.

- Trump moved to cancel millions in federal transportation grants for Colorado infrastructure projects.

- Trump has supported proposals to for the BLM to sell off hundreds of thousands of acres of public lands in Colorado for private development.

- Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy moved to withhold $24 million in federal funding over Colorado commercial driver's licenses issued to immigrants.

- The Trump administration denied two major disaster declaration requests made by Colorado for wildfire and flood recovery.

I'm pretty confident this forced extension of coal plants isn't about coal, but instead another effort to punish Coloradoans and Jared Polis over Tina Peters.

 

[C.M. Allen]

You’re ignoring the pettiness of punishing those who opposed him.

Pero ¿Por qué no los dos?

This is true. We are talking about easily one of the most petty, vindictive, spiteful scum to ever be discharge from any human orifice. And that's including all the toxic filth that comes from Trump's holes on a regular basis.

 

[J-Be]

Emergency.

You keep using that word. I don't think that word means what you think it means.....

With this admin words can mean whatever they need to mean to serve the purpose of the moment. Even if it directly contradicts something they said five seconds ago.

Vagary is an effective tool to those compelled to maintain power and control over others.

 

[Astro99]

For the vast majority of Trump's second term Jared Polis (Colorado's democratic governor) has managed to keep Colorado under the radar. He's made vague compliments of Trump, RFK, and other Maga figures, and the Trump administration has largely ignored Colorado. Denver hasn't gotten National Guard deployments, and while Aurora has gotten some ICE activity, it's substantially less than I would have expected, especially considering all that Tren de Aragua attention it got in the right wing news sphere.

That all seems to have stopped when Jared Polis responded "No President has jurisdiction over state law nor the power to pardon a person for state convictions. This is a matter for the courts to decide, and we will abide by court orders." when Trump told him to pardon Tina Peters on December 11th.

In the month since then:

- Trump vetoed bipartisan legislation to provide clean, filtered drinking water to southeastern Colorado.

- Trump issued an executive order specifically saying it would withhold federal broadband funding from Colorado unless Colorado withdrew it's AI anti-discrimination law.

- Trump proposed dismantling National Center for Atmospheric Research (NCAR) in Boulder.

- Trump moved to cancel millions in federal transportation grants for Colorado infrastructure projects.

- Trump has supported proposals to for the BLM to sell off hundreds of thousands of acres of public lands in Colorado for private development.

- Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy moved to withhold $24 million in federal funding over Colorado commercial driver's licenses issued to immigrants.

- The Trump administration denied two major disaster declaration requests made by Colorado for wildfire and flood recovery.

I'm pretty confident this forced extension of coal plants isn't about coal, but instead another effort to punish Coloradoans and Jared Polis over Tina Peters.

Trump has disliked Colorado forever. There is no rational reason to move Space Force HQ to Alabama other than petty revenge for not being red.

 

[forkspoon]

Some right wing principles on display here:

1) Money is far more important than lives.

2) Always piss in a public pool.

 

[NoReallyJustSaying]

Craig’s coal plants produces baseline power. Wind produces power when weather permits.

It would be really nice if people stopped using "baseline power" as if it meant anything related to demand, rather than an artifact of using non-dispatchable sources like (checks notes) coal and nuclear.

 

[1Zach1]

The US could shutter all coal generation in the US and if it did there would be blackouts and brownouts all over the US

No one is suggesting that we shutter coal generation without having supply to supplement it. These plants that are planned to be shuttered have that capacity change already accounted for.

when all these data centers go on line all those blackouts and brownouts would be multiplied many times.

That's a problem for the data centers to figure out, the government stepping in to keep dirty power plants online because data centers aren't accounting for their electricity usage makes no sense. These companies can afford to build out renewables, batteries and grid infrastructure to support their expansion.

Even now in some states the electric rates are outrageous now but then they would be out of this world.

States with the highest electricity rates in the US use almost no coal generated electricity

Texas has lots of natural gas it also has used this natural gas to spot supplement the grid as needed. These natural gas power electric generation can be quickly brought on line and when not needed it can be shutdown until needed the next time. These natural gas generation are expecially useful where wind and solar may fail!

So you've ended your comment with proof that coal can be deprecated from the grid with the help of gas peaker plants while renewables and batteries are expanded.

 

[Bernardo Verda]

Vast stretches of land where hills used to be that we scooped out for coal.

Mister Peabody's coal train done hauled it away.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEy6EuZp9IY

 

[RadarLuv]

Emergency.

You keep using that word. I don't think that word means what you think it means.....

 

[numerobis]

You could significantly reduce emergency powers without impacting the ability to respond to emergencies. But you have to absolutely destroy the mitch mconnell legacy of "don't let the Democrats pass anything out of Congress even if it means literally killing millions of people"

Mitch wasn't the sole person who destroyed Congress, but he was the final executioner. And paralyzing Congress ensures that we would get a fascist executive.

I'm old enough to blame Gingrich.

 

[C.M. Allen]

I'm old enough to blame Gingrich.

He was definitely a major signpost on the party's descent into outright fascism, being one of the chief architects of the 'alternative facts' (before it even became known that way) push in the party, by shutting out and closing down multiple congressional and presidential institutions that were created and designed to provide clear, concise, accurate, and easily digestible summaries of complex issues, sciences, and technologies (that it would be unreasonable to expect politicians to have intimate knowledge and understanding of), so that America's leaders could make reasonably well-informed, fact-based decisions. But of course, as the facts diverged further and further from Republican delusion, reality became the party's enemy, as did any institution 'pandering' to reality's 'well-known liberal bias.'

It would be hard to point out the Republican party's worst contributor. It's been a long, ugly spiral into its current state, replete with many, many repugnant, corrupt, and malicious actors on that path.

 

[Thorzdad]

If, allah willing, democrats can get enough power in congress and the presidency, the first thing they need to do is nerf the executive branch. Removing “emergency powers” should be a day-one issue.

Trust me, if a miracle happens and the democrats actually make it back into power, you can bet a lame-duck republican congress and executive will do everything in their power to kneecap the entire government (more so than they are already,) so that the only thing a democratic government will be able to do is (maybe) order lunch.

 

[SpaceCollector]

The US could shutter all coal generation in the US and if it did there would be blackouts and brownouts all over the US and when all these data centers go on line all those blackouts and brownouts would be multiplied many times. Even now in some states the electric rates are outrageous now but then they would be out of this world. Even in Texas where there is shuttered coal generation that is expected to have to be put back in service as all the data centers go on line. Texas has lots of natural gas it also has used this natural gas to spot supplement the grid as needed. These natural gas power electric generation can be quickly brought on line and when not needed it can be shutdown until needed the next time. These natural gas generation are expecially useful where wind and solar may fail!

You are certainly talking out of your ass. Go to Fox News and comment there.

 

[DarthSlack]

You’re right about drones. And that explains why Trump announced that the new ballroom will have a drone free roof (seriously )

Jesus H. Christ on an atomic powered pogo stick. I thought to myself "Nah, nobody is this dumb". But yup, Trump has announced the existence of drone-free roofs.

Has The Onion surrendered yet?

 

[SpaceCollector]

Trust me, if a miracle happens and the democrats actually make it back into power, you can bet a lame-duck republican congress and executive will do everything in their power to kneecap the entire government (more so than they are already,) so that the only thing a democratic government will be able to do is (maybe) order lunch.

It’s about time the US realizes that a two party system is not a democracy, but a coin toss. We need alternative parties on both sides of the political spectrum, so there is actual political debate and the worst and most reactionary groups reduce their pull on politics while moderates can actually run things. Today we gut-elect based on emotions because there are no alternatives and it’s a winner takes all situation.

 

[numerobis]

Coal plants historically operate ~70–85% capacity factor.

No they haven't. On an annual basis, they were historically around 60%, rather lower than the figure you put up. Through the 2010s, that figure crashed in the US, but also in India and China; India had a financial crisis because of it, bank bailouts, the whole thing. The last time the US annual coal capacity factor was over 50% was in 2018, and it doesn't look likely to get there this year despite a big resurgence in coal-fired generation.

On a monthly basis, the last month coal plants in the US achieved approximately 70% capacity factor were June and July 2016. Thanks Obama! This year, coal capacity factors shot up and reached 62.7% on two separate months (January and July) -- still quite a ways below your claim, and only for one month at a time.

https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.php?t=table_6_07_a

 

[approximate_pi]

Mister Peabody's coal train done hauled it away.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEy6EuZp9IY

One of my favorite songs, and also a deeply sad one, both when written and now

 

[numerobis]

You’re ignoring the pettiness of punishing those who opposed him.

Pero ¿Por qué no los dos?

I don't think coal barons have the cash to buy him anymore, so I'm voting for pettiness.

Although he is pretty cheap so maybe I'm wrong.