There’s no sudden acceleration problem with Tesla, feds say

Sukasa

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Okay so it's pretty normal still. That's good.

We lack good language for EVs since 'starting' them just doesn't mean the same thing it does with an ICE vehicle.
The only shift that doesn't need the brake pedal down is shifting between Drive and Reverse, while the car is travelling at under 8km/h. Anything else requires the brake pedal be held down, and also still requires you to be under 8km/h.

As for "started": I've always considered an EV "started" if the HVDC contactors are closed and traction voltage is available at the drive units, even if the vehicle is still in 'park'.
 
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Erbium68

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I've never owned a full EV but the thought of OPD definitely sounds nice, especially in traffic as noted.
I never found OPD smooth enough and my current car doesn't have it.

What it does have which I think is highly desirable is regen on both the speed limiter and on intelligent cruise control. Long downhill stretch? Put speed limiter on the limit and forget about it.
 
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Sphex

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OPD sounds waaaaaaaay too weird.
I wonder if people who have spent significant time driving a manual transmission (and using engine braking to decelerate) transition more easily to EV one-pedal mode. I've never driven an EV, but I imagine the various regen settings being like choosing 5th gear (mild) to 2nd gear (heavy) when using engine braking in a manual.
 
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I hate Tesla and Musk with all my heart but even I know there is no way you can shift a Tesla into drive without pressing the brake pedal.

This is pretty much standard on all EVs and my Ioniq 5 has the same. As well as VW ID series, Enyaq, Ford EVs, Polestar, Volvo (I drive a lot of rentals for work)

Still Its good that its been looked into so they could rule out a design flaw, production error, sub contractor switching to cheaper components or a myriad of other possible causes.

Human error is sadly not uncommon and the shame/embarrassment does cause quite a few people to not admit to their mistakes.

I am looking forward to seeing the FSD Probe progress though as I think camera only Self Driving is crazy.

I have test driven some pretty good LiDAR + Camera based self driving cars and even they struggle with some situations. Honestly I don't think we will have safe self driving cars until the cars can talk to each other so that every car knows what the intent of the other cars are.

As well as the cars talking to the road signals, pedestrian crossings etc.

I hope they get smacked hard on the whole FSD debacle.

I am as I said biased against Tesla and Musk (I am Trans, and the hate and disinformation that Musk has spread or amplified is something I have to deal with every day)
 
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bruindrummer

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I used to drive a manual, and I'm sympathetic to the brain shift switching between 3 and 2 pedal cars requires. I remember once stabbing for a non-existent clutch in my wife's automatic in a mild panic thinking I was about to stall the engine as I came to a stop. Muscle memory can be like that.

My i4 doesn't do true one pedal driving. I have the regen cranked to max, and I rather like how it works. I can do probably 90% one pedal driving, I have a nice degree of easy control over the car, but if I want to come to a full stop or stop quickly I still use the brake pedal.

To me that feels right. Hard to say if it's just because I'm used to using the brake still or not. But I think rationally it's nice to have "control over speed" and "need to stop now, or stay stopped" in two different places.

I do have an auto hold brake option for staying stopped actually, but I've never cared for how that feels.
I'm 54 and got a Tesla in 2022, so I had 36 years of driving the 2 pedal way before trying out one pedal driving. It's like any repetitive physical activity--before long it's natural. If I need to stop quickly, like you mentioned, I use the brake pedal, but 99% of my driving now is one pedal. And I love it. I wouldn't buy an EV that doesn't come to a complete stop without using the brake pedal.

I was in an emergency stopping situation last year and I was able to smash on the brakes and come to a complete stop before rear-ending the car in front of me (the car behind me, unfortunately, failed). To the car's credit, it actually started braking a few milliseconds before I did.
 
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theOGpetergregory

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You don't "start" a Tesla. It's on before you open the door.

To come out of park, you are required to press the brake (just like every other car).
I'm struggling to reconcile this with Lakafossis's claims:

Essentially, because a driver doesn’t need to hold down the brake pedal when starting a Tesla, its driver might put a foot on the accelerator by mistake, Lakafossis claimed,

It seems like he's describing having the car in "park" with your foot on the accelerator. How does that risk driving into a wall if you can't get to drive without using the brake?

Edit: thanks to @numerobis 's post below, I checked the link from the article which has the details and they make a lot more sense as to the complaint. It is a combination of one-pedal, autopilot and auto-gear select.
https://static.nhtsa.gov/complaints/11515119/11515119-0003.pdf
 
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numerobis

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OK, the article above is somewhat misleading. It's not about starting the car, it's ... something bonkers that simply makes no sense.

Lakafossis is proposing a scenario: what about if you're using one-pedal driving, you get used to OPD stopping the car when you let off the accelerator, you let off the accelerator to let the car slow down, but your foot is still hovering over the accelerator just enough that you still feel it on the pedal, and the car slows down non-linearly*, and this startles you into wanting to slow down faster so you panic and start to push harder and harder on the pedal that you now think is the brake.

He links this to the automatic parking feature where the car can switch from drive to reverse automatically (I haven't used it so I can't speak to precisely how it works), and to the interlocks on starting the car that have been common for decades and mandatory for over 15 years. But any obvious link between those and the scenario is absent.

One-pedal driving in the Tesla has linear deceleration*. So I guess he's imaging that you're in OPD, hovering over the accelerator, and EAB kicks on?

* Except: if you have an older car, those didn't blend braking action in above 30 km/h, so if your battery couldn't take the deceleration current (it was full, or cold) then you got non-linear deceleration upon falling through 30 km/h. Always blending braking in as needed has been the default since I think 2022 and can be turned on in older cars (e.g. I turned it on).
 
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Aurich

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OPD sounds waaaaaaaay too weird. I suppose if you've never driven an older vehicle and don't have the reliance on brake pedal modulation as part of the hand-eye coordination loop, I can't even imagine how distracting and disconcerting that would be.

I'll have to go try it, but I don't know that I'd like the feeling around lack of control, especially since I've worked in QA for decades and Tesla's fast and loose software is a bit of a question mark.
As I said my car is like 90% OPD, so not quite the same, but with my regen cranked up it's pretty aggressive. After about a day of adjusting to easing off the accelerator means slowing down and not coasting my brain has mostly clicked over, and I think it's a pretty great way to drive.

Contrary to what you're feeling it's not at all a lack of control, it's actually more control. It's much easier to make fine adjustments to your speed.

I'm also starting to think it's just safer in general. When someone does something stupid in front of me I just ease off the accelerator and instantly slow down. It's faster from both a mental and physical reaction standpoint, and practically automatic.

My one worry is that my brake lights aren't activating during all this. Which feels less safe for people following me.
 
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Fatesrider

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Is this, uh, a joke? The driver may press the accelerator instead of the brake, and that would be Tesla's fault?

Am I missing something here? If someone cannot be trusted to not be confused by the pedals before starting their cars, I don't see how I would trust them on the road...
Yeah, you missed the point:
But according to the petition sent to NHTSA in 2023 by a Greek engineer, this causes a “short-circuit” in Tesla drivers’ brains.
If you have decades of muscle memory where pressing a pedal to STOP is how you think you should stop then one pedal driving is, at the very least, extremely risky for edge cases of surprise when you "instinctively" react to a situation - like almost running into a wall.

It's a little thing called "human nature" that you can't just turn your nose up and assume a superior affect that if you think it can't happen to you it can't happen to anyone else.

It depends on the experiences of the individual.

The FIX for one pedal braking is auto-braking when too close to an object you'll hit if you accelerate.

But Teslas, lacking lidar, or radar, or sonar or any other ar, can't tell how far away something is except by parallax from frame to from (since it only has the camera) and it's not especially accurate or reliable in avoiding running into things in the first place. Any OTHER EV with some kind of driver assist or AEB shouldn't have an issue with this, because they know how far away something is (usually).

Forgetting that people are human isn't a good look. That goes for Tesla, too...
 
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Uragan

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How often have you made that mistake while driving? How often have you hit the accelerator when you wanted to brake? How often have you put your car in drive in your garage rather than reverse? And if you did, did you blame the car?

There's "confuse" and then there's "confuse".
When driving? Maybe once or twice. Thankfully, it wasn’t in a situation that would have caused an accident.

How often have I done that overall? Again, maybe a couple times on top of the one or two times listed above.

I’ve never had a garage, so I can’t say I’ve ever had that problem. And since I haven’t, I can’t say I have blamed the car for that.
 
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numerobis

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OPD sounds waaaaaaaay too weird. I suppose if you've never driven an older vehicle and don't have the reliance on brake pedal modulation as part of the hand-eye coordination loop, I can't even imagine how distracting and disconcerting that would be.

I'll have to go try it, but I don't know that I'd like the feeling around lack of control, especially since I've worked in QA for decades and Tesla's fast and loose software is a bit of a question mark.
Automatic cars are the ones that are fucking weird. They creep forward on their own if you don't stop them! Let off the accelerator, they might slow down, but they might not.
 
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Sphex

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My one worry is that my brake lights aren't activating during all this.
While reading your previous paragraph my mind immediately went to this. All city busses around here have yellow lights on the back that start blinking when the bus is coasting. I'm surprised EVs don't have some similar thing for when regen is active (or maybe past a certain level). But then downshifting aggressively in a manual doesn't alert the people behind either, so... I guess proper following distance is the mitigation. Something you as the decelerator have no control over unfortunately.
 
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fenris_uy

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My one issue with one pedal driving is when people panic they do what they are used to. So if they only use one pedal for acceleration and braking, what will they do in an emergency.

Probably press the pedal they most used too. Sucks if it’s the accelerator.

Muscle memory can bite.
So, they have the muscle memory of pressing the brake, but not the muscle memory of where the brake is?

If that is the case, maybe people that drive OPD need to start using their left foot for the actual brake.
 
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numerobis

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My one worry is that my brake lights aren't activating during all this. Which feels less safe for people following me.
That's changing, because it's an obvious safety problem.

The laws (or regulations, or international recommendations, whatever) were written with manual transmission in mind, and with quite basic electronics as the state of the art. EV regeneration is forcing the laws to update, and modern electronics mean we can write the laws to define that the lights should turn on past a certain level of deceleration no matter the reason.
 
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numerobis

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So, they have the muscle memory of pressing the brake, but not the muscle memory of where the brake is?

If that is the case, maybe people that drive OPD need to start using their left foot for the actual brake.
We use the right foot to brake and we use it not infrequently. Far less often than with an automatic or manual, but still you're not likely to get through a commute without using the brakes a few times.
 
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Sukasa

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While reading your previous paragraph my mind immediately went to this. All city busses around here have yellow lights on the back that start blinking when the bus is coasting. I'm surprised EVs don't have some similar thing for when regen is active (or maybe past a certain level). But then downshifting aggressively in a manual doesn't alert the people behind either, so... I guess proper following distance is the proper mitigation. Something you as the decelerator have no control over unfortunately.

There's no standard yet, as far as I'm aware. Some, like Tesla, engage the brake lights after a specific g threshold for braking. Others, like some Ioniqs apparently only light up if your foot is entirely off the accelerator even in OPD mode (per Tech Connections).
 
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mysciencefriend

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Part of me wonders how much of this issue is from the instant torque of EVs, as well as the fact that for a long time there were more Teslas on the road than any other EV.

In my 2017 honda CRV, if I mash the accelerator from a stop it's almost comically slow off the line until the turbo spools up... there's lots of time to notice I'm moving forward and hit the brakes before I've actually travelled that far. Conversely in both my previous tesla and my current Kia EV9, mashing the accelerator causes the vehicle to leap forward more or less instantly, potentially directly into whatever happens to be in front of the car at that moment.

If my CRV is a reasonable proxy for the millions of ICE econoboxes on the roads these days, it's possible that the incidences of accidental accelerator-mashing are roughly the same across all vehicles, but the stakes are just a lot lower when most of them happen in wimpy little turbo four-cylinders.
 
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Pim

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So according to a lot of replies I see here I'm an idiot.

But for the sake of information sharing and sharing of experience. This is my take of it.

After years of normal cars I now own an EV, a Tesla.

Now with all the cars in the past and with the other car I still own. My brain all these years is been taught that when stationary my foot is near or on the brake pedal. So in any situation I can stomp on that pedal and become stationary.

Now I'm in my Tesla. And my Tesla won't roll away without input. But because I've got one pedal driving my foot is now near the gas pedal constantly.

So have you ever experienced that feeling that you started to roll but didn't actually roll.

And what do you do when you think you start rolling when you don't want to. Stomp that foot on the brake pedal like you're used to. Only again in my Tesla my foot is next to the gas pedal.

Now I haven't had any accidents because I was aware that one pedal driving would need some adjustment.

But I've became verry close to stomping on the wrong pedal once.

Now I think that one pedal driving is the future. And more and more people won't know better eventually.
 
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sbuso

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My one issue with one pedal driving is when people panic they do what they are used to. So if they only use one pedal for acceleration and braking, what will they do in an emergency.

Probably press the pedal they most used too. Sucks if it’s the accelerator.

Muscle memory can bite.
OPD means that you take your foot OFF the pedal (or press down less) to brake. More pressure -> more speed, less pressure -> less speed. So pressing down on the "one pedal" means you go faster. If you want to brake harder than regen does, move your foot onto the brake pedal and press, just as you would do in any other car.
 
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bruindrummer

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As I said my car is like 90% OPD, so not quite the same, but with my regen cranked up it's pretty aggressive. After about a day of adjusting to easing off the accelerator means slowing down and not coasting my brain has mostly clicked over, and I think it's a pretty great way to drive.

Contrary to what you're feeling it's not at all a lack of control, it's actually more control. It's much easier to make fine adjustments to your speed.

I'm also starting to think it's just safer in general. When someone does something stupid in front of me I just ease off the accelerator and instantly slow down. It's faster from both a mental and physical reaction standpoint, and practically automatic.

My one worry is that my brake lights aren't activating during all this. Which feels less safe for people following me.
If the negative G's are high enough (which is to say, not much), your brake lights absolutely should be activating. And if they're not high enough, then it's basically the same as lifting in a 2 pedal car. I can't speak to BMW, but that's how Teslas work.
 
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sbuso

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We use the right foot to brake and we use it not infrequently. Far less often than with an automatic or manual, but still you're not likely to get through a commute without using the brakes a few times.
I think I use the brake pedal about once a month, but I often drive on Autopilot (cruise control, not FSD, which is not available here), even in town.
 
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destoya

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Automatic cars are the ones that are fucking weird. They creep forward on their own if you don't stop them! Let off the accelerator, they might slow down, but they might not.
I really dislike how many EVs try to emulate an automatic transmission ICE. My Ioniq5 does and there's no way to disable creep. It makes parking in some situations marginally easier, but everywhere else it's just a bother. There's an auto-hold braking functionality, but that introduces a momentary jerk while the friction brakes release when accelerating from a stop, so I have to leave that disabled.

The worst one I've seen is the Vinfast VF8, where the creep functionality is so broken that it will apply unlimited torque to try and creep forward. This makes for some wild behavior when the wheels have limited grip.
 
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LDA 6502

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Some EV drivers absolutely love one-pedal driving; others don’t. I like one-pedal for low-speed driving or when I want something similar to engine braking. But according to the petition sent to NHTSA in 2023 by a Greek engineer, this causes a “short-circuit” in Tesla drivers’ brains.
I often use one-pedal driving in stop-and-go traffic. I'll freely admit that I have to be very mindful that I have it enabled and that I have it disabled once I get back into regular traffic. All it takes is a momentary lapse for it to be too late to hit the brakes in time...
 
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Aurich

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That's changing, because it's an obvious safety problem.

The laws (or regulations, or international recommendations, whatever) were written with manual transmission in mind, and with quite basic electronics as the state of the art. EV regeneration is forcing the laws to update, and modern electronics mean we can write the laws to define that the lights should turn on past a certain level of deceleration no matter the reason.
I would prefer that.
 
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RZetopan

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I don't get what this is supposed to refer to, because on its face it's false. The car beeps at you if you're in park and pushing the accelerator (and it won't move when you do that); it beeps at you if you try to put it in park drive (out of park) and you don't have your foot on the brake.

Edit: oops I flipped the direction of the transition.
I strongly suspect that they are referring to starting while in traffic, rather than starting in a garage. In the former case the vehicle is already powered, while in the latter case you are powering it up. When powering up, the Teslas that I am aware of do require your foot on the brake. While in traffic, that is not a requirement. By “starting in a garage” I am refering to powering up the drive motor(s), while they are obviously already powered when in traffic.

PS: Tesla dropping their very well functioning RADAR was insane. Musk invented multiple apologetics for his strictly cost-cutting move. Then dropping the USS to even further reduce the cost resulted parking lot collisions. Vision only is NOT how humans drive, despite the Elongelical cult claims in their devotional support of their narcissistic and petulant ketamine kid leader (left out psychopathic, but that also applies).
 
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vought1221

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I wonder if people who have spent significant time driving a manual transmission (and using engine braking to decelerate) transition more easily to EV one-pedal mode. I've never driven an EV, but I imagine the various regen settings being like choosing 5th gear (mild) to 2nd gear (heavy) when using engine braking in a manual.
As it would happen, two of the three vehicles, I have regular access to are six speed transmissions….

Maybe it would be more like mild engine braking while coming to a stop. I’ve driven older Teslas but nothing with OPD; mostly the older roadster to be honest. (I was more impressed with the Lotus.)
Automatic cars are the ones that are fucking weird. They creep forward on their own if you don't stop them! Let off the accelerator, they might slow down, but they might not.
this is the behavior people asked for after World War II as the nation began driving to work. GM and Ford delivered it.

A little historical perspective and research might help you understand why this is not considered weird by everyone who was born and taught to drive a car between 1946 and today. Trusting a pile of software is quite a bit different, Especially for someone who experienced the past four decades as an adult. Software doesn’t always do the right thing, but it always does what it’s told. It’s a matter of trust.

I personally like driving a car with three pedals. you do you.
 
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I use OPD all the time when tootling around town in my Equinox EV and have developed a habit of pressing the brake once the vehicle comes to a stop while awaiting a signal. It provides just a bit more assurance that something like this won’t happen. It also (I assume) applies extra stopping force in the event I’m struck from behind, which may prevent me from striking a car in front or being forced well into an intersection.
Back in the... decade... when learning to drive in the UK, in a manual, I was taught to always change into neutral, put the handbrake on and take my hands off the steering wheel when stopped at signals. The reasoning was: it reduces wear on the clutch, it rests your hands and feet, and if struck from behind it's very easy for your foot to come off the clutch, causing unintended acceleration.

I was always vaguely under the impression that in automatics you'd change from drive into park in the same situation. Is that a thing?
 
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android_alpaca

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I'm struggling to reconcile this with Lakafossis's claims:
Lakafossis is proposing a scenario:
I went to look up Costa Lakafossis, while he does have a degree in engineering, but he appears to be more of a journalist/photographer (although he does appear to write on the automotive technical matters and has worked a private accident investigator for a Greek train accident hired by the victims families).

Here's his bio on his wordpress site (I'm always a little weirded about my people who write about themselves in the 3rd person)

"Costas Lakafossis was born in Athens, where he still lives.DCIM100GOPRO
He holds a Degree in Mechanical Engineering from the University of Patras.
His early career (Technical Press S.A.: 4Wheels, Flight, Science and Technology magazines) was focused on technical matters (automotive, flight, defence and popular science).
In the last few years, he has broadened his horizons to include many diverse fields of photojournalism. Using his technical skills and training, he is always ready to climb, swim, ride or fly in order to shoot from an original viewpoint or make a hard-to-get picture (always observing safety measures and with a clean safety record so far). He also shoots documentary-style video with a personal style based on “first-person-view” of the action using small and rugged cameras to create unique footage that complements material shot with “proper” cameras and using conventional cinematography techniques.

In his editorial work, he really hates labels. He has never been “left wing” or “right wing”, and considers the term “politically correct” an insult. One day he might be shooting a story about the homeless or the african refugees in Athens and the next day he might be following the training of an elite Special Forces team, without any consideration of possible interpretations of these diverse choices. His work is about documenting everything and anything, at the same time staying away from “political activism” of any kind."
 
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theOGpetergregory

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We use the right foot to brake and we use it not infrequently. Far less often than with an automatic or manual, but still you're not likely to get through a commute without using the brakes a few times.
Unless you believe your car is fully self driving capable and all you do is supervise it, until all of a sudden it isn't self-driving.
this is the behavior people asked for after World War II as the nation began driving to work. GM and Ford delivered it.

A little historical perspective and research might help you understand why this is not considered weird by everyone who was born and taught to drive a car between 1946 and today. Trusting a pile of software is quite a bit different, Especially for someone who experienced the past four decades as an adult. Software doesn’t always do the right thing, but it always does what it’s told. It’s a matter of trust.
Do you have a source for that? I was under the impression that idle creep was a side effect of torque converters, not necessarily a desired behavior.
 
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mknelson

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Plenty of cases of Tesla owners mistaking the accelerator for the brake. Including an infamous crash in Guangdong China where two people were killed by a speeding Tesla whose clueless driver spent two kilometres with their foot mashed into the accelerator pedal.

Edit: video is age restricted and confronting.


View: https://m.youtube.com/shorts/HkGRo9N9L34


One-pedal driving is amazing but over time people forget how to brake and just hit the pedal they're used to without realising it's the wrong one.

We do? I've been one-pedal driving almost exclusively for the last 6 years (Chevy Bolt).

I've had several emergency braking situations where I lifted my foot (cars slowing), hit the regen paddle (slowing faster) and got my foot on the brake.

It probably helps that the Bolt doesn't keep the brake light on after stopping so many of us put our foot on the brake when waiting at a stop light or sign.
 
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fractl

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One case of a retired CHP officer in Southern California involved a 'runaway' Toyota sedan that "would not slow down". No problems were found with the car; the accelerator had been commanded to WOT because the floor mat design involved the pedal assembly and interference resulted in a runaway.

There aren't any cars that can overpower their brakes in such a situation, so it remains a mystery why the retired officer didn't apply those; there's a good paper on the phenomena and response here:

https://web-static.stern.nyu.edu/om/faculty/zemel/Toyota_Draft_8_1_11.pdf
I remember that case. Saw a video from another car’s (CHP? Don’t recall now.) perspective and kept wondering why the driver didn’t just put his car into neutral.
 
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The MD apparently erupted in fury when he couldn't get it to start because he had missed the "foot on the brake" instruction.
I had this experience with a rental car once. I had to go back into the rental office to get instructions on how to start it --- I had never encountered the will-not-start-unless-your-foot-is-on-the-brake thing before, although I was aware that automatics don't like shifting into drive unless your foot's on the brake. (I mostly drive manuals.) It still seems a bit weird to me. Refusing to start unless it's in park seems reasonable, but refusing to start unless it's in park and your foot is on the brake feels unnecessary.
 
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JudgeMental

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OPD sounds waaaaaaaay too weird. I suppose if you've never driven an older vehicle and don't have the reliance on brake pedal modulation as part of the hand-eye coordination loop, I can't even imagine how distracting and disconcerting that would be.

I'll have to go try it, but I don't know that I'd like the feeling around lack of control, especially since I've worked in QA for decades and Tesla's fast and loose software is a bit of a question mark.
I've never driven a car with OPD, but I've driven a lot of electric forklifts and they tend to have the same functionality. It's roughly like adjusting between driving a manual and automatic IMO. In other words, it's true that the transition may be jarring for some number of people, but most can probably handle it just fine once they've acclimatized. That does leave the some which may have problems, but I doubt OPD will saturate so quickly that those folks won't be able to find an alternative.

Personally, I suspect I'd want a setup like Aurich described - lift-off deceleration for 90% of my speed control, with a brake to handle a final stop. My own reasoning is that when I'm in a low-speed environment (in my car - electric forklifts and their environments are addressing wholly different safety considerations), I believe it's generally going to be safer if I'm controlling my speed via applying/lifting off the brakes instead of applying/lifting off the accelerator. Essentially, the bad scenario with OPD is unintended acceleration, while the 'traditional' brake usage is a low speed collision.

That said, without having experienced how OPD is actually implemented in a car, I might change my mind in the future.
 
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I wonder if people who have spent significant time driving a manual transmission (and using engine braking to decelerate) transition more easily to EV one-pedal mode. I've never driven an EV, but I imagine the various regen settings being like choosing 5th gear (mild) to 2nd gear (heavy) when using engine braking in a manual.
Yeah, that's pretty on point.
I went from a manual to an EV, and I have three levels of regen, and they behave basically how you just said.
 
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