The only shift that doesn't need the brake pedal down is shifting between Drive and Reverse, while the car is travelling at under 8km/h. Anything else requires the brake pedal be held down, and also still requires you to be under 8km/h.Okay so it's pretty normal still. That's good.
We lack good language for EVs since 'starting' them just doesn't mean the same thing it does with an ICE vehicle.
I never found OPD smooth enough and my current car doesn't have it.I've never owned a full EV but the thought of OPD definitely sounds nice, especially in traffic as noted.
I wonder if people who have spent significant time driving a manual transmission (and using engine braking to decelerate) transition more easily to EV one-pedal mode. I've never driven an EV, but I imagine the various regen settings being like choosing 5th gear (mild) to 2nd gear (heavy) when using engine braking in a manual.OPD sounds waaaaaaaay too weird.
I'm 54 and got a Tesla in 2022, so I had 36 years of driving the 2 pedal way before trying out one pedal driving. It's like any repetitive physical activity--before long it's natural. If I need to stop quickly, like you mentioned, I use the brake pedal, but 99% of my driving now is one pedal. And I love it. I wouldn't buy an EV that doesn't come to a complete stop without using the brake pedal.I used to drive a manual, and I'm sympathetic to the brain shift switching between 3 and 2 pedal cars requires. I remember once stabbing for a non-existent clutch in my wife's automatic in a mild panic thinking I was about to stall the engine as I came to a stop. Muscle memory can be like that.
My i4 doesn't do true one pedal driving. I have the regen cranked to max, and I rather like how it works. I can do probably 90% one pedal driving, I have a nice degree of easy control over the car, but if I want to come to a full stop or stop quickly I still use the brake pedal.
To me that feels right. Hard to say if it's just because I'm used to using the brake still or not. But I think rationally it's nice to have "control over speed" and "need to stop now, or stay stopped" in two different places.
I do have an auto hold brake option for staying stopped actually, but I've never cared for how that feels.
I'm struggling to reconcile this with Lakafossis's claims:You don't "start" a Tesla. It's on before you open the door.
To come out of park, you are required to press the brake (just like every other car).
Essentially, because a driver doesn’t need to hold down the brake pedal when starting a Tesla, its driver might put a foot on the accelerator by mistake, Lakafossis claimed,
As I said my car is like 90% OPD, so not quite the same, but with my regen cranked up it's pretty aggressive. After about a day of adjusting to easing off the accelerator means slowing down and not coasting my brain has mostly clicked over, and I think it's a pretty great way to drive.OPD sounds waaaaaaaay too weird. I suppose if you've never driven an older vehicle and don't have the reliance on brake pedal modulation as part of the hand-eye coordination loop, I can't even imagine how distracting and disconcerting that would be.
I'll have to go try it, but I don't know that I'd like the feeling around lack of control, especially since I've worked in QA for decades and Tesla's fast and loose software is a bit of a question mark.
Yeah, you missed the point:Is this, uh, a joke? The driver may press the accelerator instead of the brake, and that would be Tesla's fault?
Am I missing something here? If someone cannot be trusted to not be confused by the pedals before starting their cars, I don't see how I would trust them on the road...
If you have decades of muscle memory where pressing a pedal to STOP is how you think you should stop then one pedal driving is, at the very least, extremely risky for edge cases of surprise when you "instinctively" react to a situation - like almost running into a wall.But according to the petition sent to NHTSA in 2023 by a Greek engineer, this causes a “short-circuit” in Tesla drivers’ brains.
When driving? Maybe once or twice. Thankfully, it wasn’t in a situation that would have caused an accident.How often have you made that mistake while driving? How often have you hit the accelerator when you wanted to brake? How often have you put your car in drive in your garage rather than reverse? And if you did, did you blame the car?
There's "confuse" and then there's "confuse".
Automatic cars are the ones that are fucking weird. They creep forward on their own if you don't stop them! Let off the accelerator, they might slow down, but they might not.OPD sounds waaaaaaaay too weird. I suppose if you've never driven an older vehicle and don't have the reliance on brake pedal modulation as part of the hand-eye coordination loop, I can't even imagine how distracting and disconcerting that would be.
I'll have to go try it, but I don't know that I'd like the feeling around lack of control, especially since I've worked in QA for decades and Tesla's fast and loose software is a bit of a question mark.
While reading your previous paragraph my mind immediately went to this. All city busses around here have yellow lights on the back that start blinking when the bus is coasting. I'm surprised EVs don't have some similar thing for when regen is active (or maybe past a certain level). But then downshifting aggressively in a manual doesn't alert the people behind either, so... I guess proper following distance is the mitigation. Something you as the decelerator have no control over unfortunately.My one worry is that my brake lights aren't activating during all this.
So, they have the muscle memory of pressing the brake, but not the muscle memory of where the brake is?My one issue with one pedal driving is when people panic they do what they are used to. So if they only use one pedal for acceleration and braking, what will they do in an emergency.
Probably press the pedal they most used too. Sucks if it’s the accelerator.
Muscle memory can bite.
That's changing, because it's an obvious safety problem.My one worry is that my brake lights aren't activating during all this. Which feels less safe for people following me.
We use the right foot to brake and we use it not infrequently. Far less often than with an automatic or manual, but still you're not likely to get through a commute without using the brakes a few times.So, they have the muscle memory of pressing the brake, but not the muscle memory of where the brake is?
If that is the case, maybe people that drive OPD need to start using their left foot for the actual brake.
While reading your previous paragraph my mind immediately went to this. All city busses around here have yellow lights on the back that start blinking when the bus is coasting. I'm surprised EVs don't have some similar thing for when regen is active (or maybe past a certain level). But then downshifting aggressively in a manual doesn't alert the people behind either, so... I guess proper following distance is the proper mitigation. Something you as the decelerator have no control over unfortunately.
OPD means that you take your foot OFF the pedal (or press down less) to brake. More pressure -> more speed, less pressure -> less speed. So pressing down on the "one pedal" means you go faster. If you want to brake harder than regen does, move your foot onto the brake pedal and press, just as you would do in any other car.My one issue with one pedal driving is when people panic they do what they are used to. So if they only use one pedal for acceleration and braking, what will they do in an emergency.
Probably press the pedal they most used too. Sucks if it’s the accelerator.
Muscle memory can bite.
If the negative G's are high enough (which is to say, not much), your brake lights absolutely should be activating. And if they're not high enough, then it's basically the same as lifting in a 2 pedal car. I can't speak to BMW, but that's how Teslas work.As I said my car is like 90% OPD, so not quite the same, but with my regen cranked up it's pretty aggressive. After about a day of adjusting to easing off the accelerator means slowing down and not coasting my brain has mostly clicked over, and I think it's a pretty great way to drive.
Contrary to what you're feeling it's not at all a lack of control, it's actually more control. It's much easier to make fine adjustments to your speed.
I'm also starting to think it's just safer in general. When someone does something stupid in front of me I just ease off the accelerator and instantly slow down. It's faster from both a mental and physical reaction standpoint, and practically automatic.
My one worry is that my brake lights aren't activating during all this. Which feels less safe for people following me.
I think I use the brake pedal about once a month, but I often drive on Autopilot (cruise control, not FSD, which is not available here), even in town.We use the right foot to brake and we use it not infrequently. Far less often than with an automatic or manual, but still you're not likely to get through a commute without using the brakes a few times.
I really dislike how many EVs try to emulate an automatic transmission ICE. My Ioniq5 does and there's no way to disable creep. It makes parking in some situations marginally easier, but everywhere else it's just a bother. There's an auto-hold braking functionality, but that introduces a momentary jerk while the friction brakes release when accelerating from a stop, so I have to leave that disabled.Automatic cars are the ones that are fucking weird. They creep forward on their own if you don't stop them! Let off the accelerator, they might slow down, but they might not.
I often use one-pedal driving in stop-and-go traffic. I'll freely admit that I have to be very mindful that I have it enabled and that I have it disabled once I get back into regular traffic. All it takes is a momentary lapse for it to be too late to hit the brakes in time...Some EV drivers absolutely love one-pedal driving; others don’t. I like one-pedal for low-speed driving or when I want something similar to engine braking. But according to the petition sent to NHTSA in 2023 by a Greek engineer, this causes a “short-circuit” in Tesla drivers’ brains.
I would prefer that.That's changing, because it's an obvious safety problem.
The laws (or regulations, or international recommendations, whatever) were written with manual transmission in mind, and with quite basic electronics as the state of the art. EV regeneration is forcing the laws to update, and modern electronics mean we can write the laws to define that the lights should turn on past a certain level of deceleration no matter the reason.
I strongly suspect that they are referring to starting while in traffic, rather than starting in a garage. In the former case the vehicle is already powered, while in the latter case you are powering it up. When powering up, the Teslas that I am aware of do require your foot on the brake. While in traffic, that is not a requirement. By “starting in a garage” I am refering to powering up the drive motor(s), while they are obviously already powered when in traffic.I don't get what this is supposed to refer to, because on its face it's false. The car beeps at you if you're in park and pushing the accelerator (and it won't move when you do that); it beeps at you if you try to put it inparkdrive (out of park) and you don't have your foot on the brake.
Edit: oops I flipped the direction of the transition.
As it would happen, two of the three vehicles, I have regular access to are six speed transmissions….I wonder if people who have spent significant time driving a manual transmission (and using engine braking to decelerate) transition more easily to EV one-pedal mode. I've never driven an EV, but I imagine the various regen settings being like choosing 5th gear (mild) to 2nd gear (heavy) when using engine braking in a manual.
this is the behavior people asked for after World War II as the nation began driving to work. GM and Ford delivered it.Automatic cars are the ones that are fucking weird. They creep forward on their own if you don't stop them! Let off the accelerator, they might slow down, but they might not.
Back in the... decade... when learning to drive in the UK, in a manual, I was taught to always change into neutral, put the handbrake on and take my hands off the steering wheel when stopped at signals. The reasoning was: it reduces wear on the clutch, it rests your hands and feet, and if struck from behind it's very easy for your foot to come off the clutch, causing unintended acceleration.I use OPD all the time when tootling around town in my Equinox EV and have developed a habit of pressing the brake once the vehicle comes to a stop while awaiting a signal. It provides just a bit more assurance that something like this won’t happen. It also (I assume) applies extra stopping force in the event I’m struck from behind, which may prevent me from striking a car in front or being forced well into an intersection.
I'm struggling to reconcile this with Lakafossis's claims:
I went to look up Costa Lakafossis, while he does have a degree in engineering, but he appears to be more of a journalist/photographer (although he does appear to write on the automotive technical matters and has worked a private accident investigator for a Greek train accident hired by the victims families).Lakafossis is proposing a scenario:
Unless you believe your car is fully self driving capable and all you do is supervise it, until all of a sudden it isn't self-driving.We use the right foot to brake and we use it not infrequently. Far less often than with an automatic or manual, but still you're not likely to get through a commute without using the brakes a few times.
Do you have a source for that? I was under the impression that idle creep was a side effect of torque converters, not necessarily a desired behavior.this is the behavior people asked for after World War II as the nation began driving to work. GM and Ford delivered it.
A little historical perspective and research might help you understand why this is not considered weird by everyone who was born and taught to drive a car between 1946 and today. Trusting a pile of software is quite a bit different, Especially for someone who experienced the past four decades as an adult. Software doesn’t always do the right thing, but it always does what it’s told. It’s a matter of trust.
Plenty of cases of Tesla owners mistaking the accelerator for the brake. Including an infamous crash in Guangdong China where two people were killed by a speeding Tesla whose clueless driver spent two kilometres with their foot mashed into the accelerator pedal.
Edit: video is age restricted and confronting.
View: https://m.youtube.com/shorts/HkGRo9N9L34
One-pedal driving is amazing but over time people forget how to brake and just hit the pedal they're used to without realising it's the wrong one.
I remember that case. Saw a video from another car’s (CHP? Don’t recall now.) perspective and kept wondering why the driver didn’t just put his car into neutral.One case of a retired CHP officer in Southern California involved a 'runaway' Toyota sedan that "would not slow down". No problems were found with the car; the accelerator had been commanded to WOT because the floor mat design involved the pedal assembly and interference resulted in a runaway.
There aren't any cars that can overpower their brakes in such a situation, so it remains a mystery why the retired officer didn't apply those; there's a good paper on the phenomena and response here:
https://web-static.stern.nyu.edu/om/faculty/zemel/Toyota_Draft_8_1_11.pdf
I had this experience with a rental car once. I had to go back into the rental office to get instructions on how to start it --- I had never encountered the will-not-start-unless-your-foot-is-on-the-brake thing before, although I was aware that automatics don't like shifting into drive unless your foot's on the brake. (I mostly drive manuals.) It still seems a bit weird to me. Refusing to start unless it's in park seems reasonable, but refusing to start unless it's in park and your foot is on the brake feels unnecessary.The MD apparently erupted in fury when he couldn't get it to start because he had missed the "foot on the brake" instruction.
I've never driven a car with OPD, but I've driven a lot of electric forklifts and they tend to have the same functionality. It's roughly like adjusting between driving a manual and automatic IMO. In other words, it's true that the transition may be jarring for some number of people, but most can probably handle it just fine once they've acclimatized. That does leave the some which may have problems, but I doubt OPD will saturate so quickly that those folks won't be able to find an alternative.OPD sounds waaaaaaaay too weird. I suppose if you've never driven an older vehicle and don't have the reliance on brake pedal modulation as part of the hand-eye coordination loop, I can't even imagine how distracting and disconcerting that would be.
I'll have to go try it, but I don't know that I'd like the feeling around lack of control, especially since I've worked in QA for decades and Tesla's fast and loose software is a bit of a question mark.
Yeah, that's pretty on point.I wonder if people who have spent significant time driving a manual transmission (and using engine braking to decelerate) transition more easily to EV one-pedal mode. I've never driven an EV, but I imagine the various regen settings being like choosing 5th gear (mild) to 2nd gear (heavy) when using engine braking in a manual.
Should that be s/can/can't/? I always thought that all vehicles had to have brakes significantly more powerful than the engine.There aren't any cars that can overpower their brakes in such a situation, so it remains a mystery why the retired officer didn't apply those...