The throwaway line in Aliens that spawned decades of confusion

No, they're not called "Xenomorphs"—at least, not with a capital "X."

Read the whole story

 

[godel]

A little off topic, but I've read that the latest Alien game when played on the latest Oculus Rift is a terrifying experience, verging on bowel loosening.

 

[SergeiEsenin]

Pokrface[/url]":10o0gwir]
1. Not going to concede that one. It's at best a slang name that's easier to say than just "the aliens," but it's a generic term. James Cameron didn't invent it, either, for those who are thinking that. He used it correctly, but he didn't make the term up.

I agree with your other points in the post above, but while the term "xenomorph" has been used elsewhere (Metroid, in geology, etc.) its use within _Aliens_ is its first appearance in the film franchise, and thus its meaning here lies entirely with writer/director Cameron. Within that context then it pretty much means whatever he says he intended it to mean, and he seems to disagree that it means "any alien in general." I respect your other points and your perspective on the _Alien_ universe at large, but on this one point you seem to be at odds with both Cameron himself and with general currents.

As I mentioned earlier, absent the narrative context which directly follows use of the word and absent outside evidence, your reading would be the simplest and most likely. But we _do_ have the narrative context, and outside evidence which includes both the writer/director's own comments, and the fact that he used "morph" to mean "metamorphose" in _Terminator 2_ around the same time period.

Still, great article and awesome discussion.

 

[x75]

If they are supposed to be called Xenomorphs, they should have just named the movie that to begin with. Yet, they didn't do that. This leads me to believe that one might say, "There are xenomorphs called Aliens in the movie Aliens."

If people want to use a generic term like xenomorph to give them a proper name, why don't they instead use the generic term used for the title of the movie?

 

[heftysmurf]

I became a fan of aliens as a child, from the perspective of someone that - at the time - had no familiarity with the Vietnam war or its lingo, and thus took it completely at face value.

Bug hunt suggested to me that they had had experience with dealing with offworld "animals" that couldn't be managed with traditional methods of human colonization. Hence the need for 'rines. Rat catching if you like. They obviously weren't prepared for rats with acid for blood that don't show up on infra red.

The term "xenomorph" seemed perfectly logical. A term used to describe an alien lifeform of unknown configuration (quadriped, biped etc.). This was consistent with the term "bug hunt". It was also wholly plausible that the front line troops might not use an official term "xenomorph" and thus Frost would need clarification on what it meant. How many frontline US marines would refer to the enemy as "enemy combatants" or some other technical descriptor? You'd use jargon terms like "bug" or nicknames, just like Russians have often been collectively called "Ivan" and the Germans "Jerry" or "Krauts".

Of course, this article cannot be unread. I'll be scouring the existing movies along with Prometheus and the planned sequel for actual names. Having said that, given that we now have canonical evidence for the genesis of the aliens in Prometheus it seems quite reasonable that we don't have an official single name. This was an adaptive organism bioweapon, likely engineered, and the significant differences between each evolution would make naming them very difficult.

 

[PaddyX]

Bug Hunt is from Heinlein, but it's a euphemism from VietNam War for "gook hunt". The VietCong enemy would pop out of holes dug in the ground to do ambush, thus making "bug" appropriate in some sense.

 

[jdrch]

The lack of official details about the Aliens universe is certainly one of the more frustrating aspects of being a fan thereof. Much has to be inferred as opposed to simply looked up as in Star Trek and Star Wars, and the studios/production companies have done surprisingly little to help the situation.*

*Steps off soapbox* Actually, it's the use of the prefix "xeno" that's most telling. "Xenophobic" is most commonly used word with that prefix, which suggests that human society at the time, though aware of alien life and/or, have no regard for it whatsoever. This is corroborated by the use of the term "bug hunt."

This reminds me a lot of John Scalzi's Old Man's War universe, in which at some point it's revealed that humanity is the only intelligent race that has refused peaceful alliances with other intelligences, and that the reason we're being attacked is every other race considers us a grave threat to their very survival.

*In contrast, witness what Microsoft has done with Halo.

 

[Midnitte]

jdrch[/url]":20ihcmw1]The lack of official details about the Aliens universe is certainly one of the more frustrating aspects of being a fan thereof. Much has to be inferred as opposed to simply looked up as in Star Trek and Star Wars, and the studios/production companies have done surprisingly little to help the situation.*

Some might say that this is where the fun is, there's not much to argue about if its all written out for you, is it?

This reminds me a lot of John Scalzi's Old Man's War universe, in which at some point it's revealed that humanity is the only intelligent race that has refused peaceful alliances with other intelligences, and that the reason we're being attacked is every other race considers us a grave threat to their very survival.

*In contrast, witness what Microsoft has done with Halo.

, thanks for the reading suggestion, that sounds entirely fascinating, and not totally unlikely.

 

[Cat Killer]

I don't think "bug hunt" refers to bugs, per se. Just a task which would, in their eyes, be a complete waste of their firepower and expertise. Like sending marines to deal with a cockroach infestation rather than, say, counter-insurgency. A waste of time instead of something they could get their teeth into.

 

[Cat Killer]

And xenomorph would be a plausible name for any organism of non-terrestrial origin, given by scientists to that class of thing, without knowledge of these aliens in particular. Colonists and animals that they'd taken with them, no matter how much selective breeding they'd had, would likely be thought of in terms of their origins. Xenomorphic would refer to anything else.

 

[Hapax_Legion]

I haven't read through all 6 pages of comments, but did read through the first 3 or so, so don't know if this has already been mentioned, and I haven't seen the movies in a while, but...

In context of the movies, "xenomorph" was a generic term for alien life and not the specific name. The existence of said aliens were only known to a select few -- higher-ups and scientists at Y-T Corp., those they inform, and Ripley (Sigourney Weaver).

In Alien, the crew were originally unaware of the creatures except for the Ash, who was tasked with bringing a sample back. Ripley lives, comes back and is debriefed. No one else still know about their existence.

In Aliens, the crew needs a consultant to explain what they're up against. Their concept of aliens/xenomorphs consists of the "bugs" mentioned in "bug hunt," i.e. lower level life forms that are the equivalent of bugs with no weapons, are mindless and easy to eradicate. They are exterminators, unless there is a stand up fight against trouble maker humans (and/or possibly Arcturians, who seem to be at least somewhat humanoid and intelligent). In no way is it ever shown that any one else except Ripley and company man Burke knows of the "others" existence.

As such, how and why would you give a specific, proper name to something concrete that you don't even know exists.

Q.E.D "xenomorph," not "Xenomorph."

 

[Meailda]

PowerRanger[/url]":ekpoldbr]Man, those US Marines are so camp!!

U.S. Marines? I Always thought this was the Cadian Shock Troopers versus the Tyranids. Specifically the Gene Stealers.

 

[mono]

Nope!

If you're a character in the Alien universe, the aliens are xenomorphs. Generic aliens.

If you're a person in our real world, they're Xenomorphs. There is no other use of the term in context other than the specific creatures from the Alien franchise.

 

[dam]

My most interesting take from the article and ensuing comments is that at least 2 Ars readers were unaware of the word unctuous.

 

[Zapitron]

I had no idea there _was_ any confusion or that some people thought Gorman used a capital X. At the time the movie came out, it seemed like he was just using generalism (to put it nicely) or pedantic weaseliness (to put it harshly). Such a person might say "indigenous personnel" where a grunt might say "locals" (or a racial slur), or might say "indirect fire weapons" where a grunt would say "artillery," or "pointing device" instead of "mouse," and so on. "Xenomorph" has slightly fewer connotations than "alien" since "alien" might imply certain knowledge of the creature's origin. (Yes, I know what Ripley reported, but Gorman can't be sure everything Ripley sasys is accurate.) Even the following words, "may be involved," further covers his ass and is in the very same spirit. Gorman is being .. _careful_.

I _do _remember in later contexts, people would refer to these aliens as Xenomorphs with a capital X, but I thought it was slightly tongue-in-cheek or as a direct reference to the movie Aliens (not merely the creatures within it), or even a reference to Gorman uttering that word. It's sort of like how a certain fictional creature might be called a "Graboid" (with a capital G) but whenever you call it that, you're not _just_ talking about the creature itself, but as baggage, the creature's first appearance in Perfection NV. It's a loaded reference.

 

[azazel1024]

That's all cool and all, and I am a huge Aliens nut...so most wasn't new info (doesn't mean I don't like reading it)...but was this really an article to explain that their name isn't Xenomorph...or was this an excuse to write an article about Aliens?

I feel like the later.

I know science and sci fi Geek here, but I thought it was relatively understood that xenomorph was another way of saying "alien".

 

[pokrface]

mono[/url]":1lvgdtsx]If you're a person in our real world, they're Xenomorphs. There is no other use of the term in context other than the specific creatures from the Alien franchise.

How did you arrive at that utterly incorrect conclusion?

 

[groghunter]

Pokrface[/url]":235oqtfd]Fascinatingly enough, James Cameron appears to have responded over on reddit:

My intention when I wrote this was to give the audience a sense that there was a formal process going on in the background, that some scientist on Earth who wanted one had given it this scientific sounding name. I never knew that people were confused by this line, hope this clears things up.

Unfortunately, this seems to clash with the rest of the movie, too—if there are scientists on Earth who know about the aliens and are studying them (based, presumably, on whatever data Ash had sent back in the first movie and possibly from anything gleaned from Hadley's Hope post-infection), there doesn't appear to be any proof of that at all. The opposite, in fact. Plus, if the aliens had been assigned a formal-informal fancy name ("Xenomorphs") and they wanted a sample, surely that would have been the marines' formal mission, rather than to simply investigate the colony. As it is, Cameron's explanation leaves us in a weird state—Gorman, a butterbar 2LT, is told the official scientific name of this species by a chain of command backed by scientists who want a sample, but nothing else about them—and his squad, when they encounter them, does their best to shoot the shit out of everything.

I posted a response over there, but I didn't want to call James Cameron out on the potential inconsistency. It's his damn movie, after all. Plus, he's got other stuff on his mind and expecting him to recall exact intentions and phrasing of a script he wrote almost 30 years ago is a little silly. (Then again, this entire topic is ultimately pretty silly )

I'd interpret his statement like this:

W-Y mgmt drone: what have you found after reading this debriefing from this..(looks at notes) Ripley?

Scientist: Well sir, her descriptions allude to some sort of alien life form, one completely foreign to us, a sort of "xenomorph" if you will.

W-Y mgmt drone: Ahhhh, a "xenomorph" you say.

Drone then submits his report to his bosses, heavily utilizing "xenomorph" because it's a powerful sounding word. This report, or one based on it, filters down to Gorman's mission briefing. He keys on the word immediately, because it's a word that he thinks will make him sound intelligent & knowledgeable about the subject, while in reality, he's as clueless as the rest of them.

When the Hicks confirms "It's a bughunt," he's not referring to knowing what a xenomorph is: he's deducing that Gorman doesn't really know any more than they do.

Bug hunt is of course a reference to Heinlein. I doubt too much more thought went into it than that: "obvious spot I can drop an omage to Starship Troopers, boom done."

It's obviously meant as a derogatory reference, & since it's contrasted with "a stand up fight," it's likely referring to situations where they aren't given a simple objective like " go kill those bad guys & take that hill," instead it's "go to this area, search around for this undefined objective(with the unsaid assumption that some of you will die because we aren't giving you enough information.)" thus their disdain for bug hunts.

At the end of the day though, it's not anymore important than "How much of Verbal Kint's story is true?" because it's in service of the journey, rather than being the destination.

 

[SergeiEsenin]

Pokrface[/url]":lswd15xs]

mono[/url]":lswd15xs]If you're a person in our real world, they're Xenomorphs. There is no other use of the term in context other than the specific creatures from the Alien franchise.

How did you arrive at that utterly incorrect conclusion?

I believe he's referring to the fact that in the real world, use of the word "xenomorph" pretty much means that you're talking about "the aliens from _Aliens_"--unless you happen to be talking about geology, Metroid, or an obscure Dutch band. It isn't a commonly encountered word, except when referring to the _Aliens_ aliens. 9 out of the 11 front-page Google results for "xenomorph" for me are about the aliens from the _Alien_ franchise, the exceptions being Wikipedia's disambiguation page and the website of a company whose naming founder(s) most likely got "xenomorph" from the franchise.

So what he's saying is that in practical terms, regardless of what it meant in the _Aliens_ universe, in ours the word "xenomorphs" _de facto_ refers to the specific Giger-inspired creatures.

 

[wyrmhole]

SergeiEsenin[/url]":2eb7vhud]

Pokrface[/url]":2eb7vhud]

mono[/url]":2eb7vhud]If you're a person in our real world, they're Xenomorphs. There is no other use of the term in context other than the specific creatures from the Alien franchise.

How did you arrive at that utterly incorrect conclusion?

I believe he's referring to the fact that in the real world, use of the word "xenomorph" pretty much means that you're talking about "the aliens from _Aliens_"--unless you happen to be talking about geology, Metroid, or an obscure Dutch band. It isn't a commonly encountered word, except when referring to the _Aliens_ aliens. 9 out of the 11 front-page Google results for "xenomorph" for me are about the aliens from the _Alien_ franchise, the exceptions being Wikipedia's disambiguation page and the website of a company whose naming founder(s) most likely got "xenomorph" from the franchise.

So what he's saying is that in practical terms, regardless of what it meant in the _Aliens_ universe, in ours the word "xenomorphs" _de facto_ refers to the specific Giger-inspired creatures.

Particularly in the context of fictional aliens. If someone were to say "What's your favorite movie alien?" and I said "Gotta go with the Xenomorph", they'd know what I meant. It's only capital-X Xenomorph in this context because I'm using it as a name.

 

[DeadlyOne]

It's always been clear to me ... the proper noun title for the xenomprph in the Alien movies is Bitch
http://youtube.com/watch?v=DnOIvn8hMS4#

 

[Hack-n-Slash]

Davebo[/url]":3rpo1s8u]

Gendou[/url]":3rpo1s8u]In lieu of a proper canonical name, calling them "Xenomorphs" is a useful shorthand.
Otherwise we're stuck calling them "the aliens from Aliens," which just sounds silly.

Local Non-Indigenous Personnel

Anthropomorphic Life-form Indigenous to Environments Non-terrestrial?

 

[eGraf.ity]

In Europe anyway the most common word beginning 'xeno' is 'xenophobia',
hatred of foreigners ( near as dammit racism ).
( btw, even more 'unmentioned' than the aliens' species here is the movie's director,
Ridley Scott, who is indeed European ).

a google of the word 'xenophobia', shows initially mostly dictionary definitions
with the only newspaper reference being from the Guardian :

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... es-nigeria

The funny thing is that at the bottom of this webpage, 'xenophobia' does indeed appear,
in a review of an Aliens computer game :

Aliens: Colonial Marines review: Xenophobia

( However in that article that is the ONLY appearance of 'xenophobia' ).

 

[Z1ggy]

you guys are linked to in a tor article
http://www.tor.com/blogs/2014/08/mornin ... uperheroes

 

[Dermoplasm]

The use of "Xenomorphs" as a proper noun used to describe the series’ aliens is blatantly wrong. If you’re guilty of doing it, stop. "Xenomorph" is just a fancy word for "alien," not the proper name of the creatures.

Wow. Someone has passed the point of annoyed and is now in the realm of morally outraged....over the use and justification of a pronoun instead of a noun.

I thought this article was great (and quite funny) for taking something that my friends have argued about endlessly aver a D&D game (or twenty) and turned it into a satirically serious discussion. But I guess it really is that important to people to force an interpretation of a "throw-away line" onto everyone else. Shame on everyone who felt the capital X was the right way to go.

 

[Dermoplasm]

eGraf.ity[/url]":2qqadtqr]In Europe anyway the most common word beginning 'xeno' is 'xenophobia',
hatred of foreigners ( near as dammit racism ).
( btw, even more 'unmentioned' than the aliens' species here is the movie's director,
Ridley Scott, who is indeed European ).

a google of the word 'xenophobia', shows initially mostly dictionary definitions
with the only newspaper reference being from the Guardian :

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... es-nigeria

The funny thing is that at the bottom of this webpage, 'xenophobia' does indeed appear,
in a review of an Aliens computer game :

Aliens: Colonial Marines review: Xenophobia

( However in that article that is the ONLY appearance of 'xenophobia' ).

While I agree that anyone who is xenophobic does seem to express a hatred of foreigners, the word actually means fear of foreigners. But we all know what you meant. I dont mean to nit-pick.

 

[Wheels Of Confusion]

Dermoplasm[/url]":1ykihv0t]

The use of "Xenomorphs" as a proper noun used to describe the series’ aliens is blatantly wrong. If you’re guilty of doing it, stop. "Xenomorph" is just a fancy word for "alien," not the proper name of the creatures.

Wow. Someone has passed the point of annoyed and is now in the realm of morally outraged....over the use and justification of a pronoun instead of a noun.

It's not a pronoun, heathen! It's a noun, but not a proper noun! Using it as a proper noun would be an improper use of the noun!
I AM MORALLY OUTRAGED AT YOUR IGNORANCE OF THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE!
I AM GROWLING AT YOU RIGHT NOW! I DIDN'T WANT TO JUST WRITE 'GRRRR!' BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE A SENTENCE FRAGMENT!

 

[Dermoplasm]

Wheels Of Confusion[/url]":t5bf0368]

Dermoplasm[/url]":t5bf0368]

The use of "Xenomorphs" as a proper noun used to describe the series’ aliens is blatantly wrong. If you’re guilty of doing it, stop. "Xenomorph" is just a fancy word for "alien," not the proper name of the creatures.

Wow. Someone has passed the point of annoyed and is now in the realm of morally outraged....over the use and justification of a pronoun instead of a noun.

It's not a pronoun, heathen! It's a noun, but not a proper noun! Using it as a proper noun would be an improper use of the noun!
I AM MORALLY OUTRAGED AT YOUR IGNORANCE OF THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE!
I AM GROWLING AT YOU RIGHT NOW! I DIDN'T WANT TO JUST WRITE 'GRRRR!' BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE A SENTENCE FRAGMENT!

I actually feel rather stupid right now.....

 

[bb-15]

SergeiEsenin[/url]":1zfyh6rk]

Pokrface[/url]":1zfyh6rk]

mono[/url]":1zfyh6rk]If you're a person in our real world, they're Xenomorphs. There is no other use of the term in context other than the specific creatures from the Alien franchise.

How did you arrive at that utterly incorrect conclusion?

I believe he's referring to the fact that in the real world, use of the word "xenomorph" pretty much means that you're talking about "the aliens from _Aliens_"--unless you happen to be talking about geology, Metroid, or an obscure Dutch band. It isn't a commonly encountered word, except when referring to the _Aliens_ aliens. 9 out of the 11 front-page Google results for "xenomorph" for me are about the aliens from the _Alien_ franchise, the exceptions being Wikipedia's disambiguation page and the website of a company whose naming founder(s) most likely got "xenomorph" from the franchise.

So what he's saying is that in practical terms, regardless of what it meant in the _Aliens_ universe, in ours the word "xenomorphs" _de facto_ refers to the specific Giger-inspired creatures.

Thank you for discussing that there are internet references which show that one definition of xenomorph refers to the fictional creatures in the Alien film series.

Here are a couple more;
http://www.allwords.com/word-xenomorph.html
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.p ... =Xenomorph

* Essentially Lee's hypothesis is that xenomorph cannot be the name of a fictional creature in Aliens because a scientific term cannot be used for a specific fictional concept/thing in science fiction.

Let's test Lee's assertion.
- In physics the word "force" is associated with many scientific concepts including Newton's laws of motion.
* Here is a definition of force from a physics education website.

A force is a push or pull upon an object resulting from the object's interaction with another object. Whenever there is an interaction between two objects, there is a force upon each of the objects. When the interaction ceases, the two objects no longer experience the force. Forces only exist as a result of an interaction.

http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/n ... g-of-Force

* But in the Star Wars series of science fiction movies, the term force (or "the Force") has been appropriated to have a particular fictional meaning.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_(Star_Wars)
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.p ... he%20force

* So the claim that a scientific term (for example, xenomorph) cannot be used for a fictional object/thing in science fiction (such as the Alien movie franchise) is not correct.

 

[pokrface]

bb-15[/url]":382sk1d6]
* Essentially Lee's hypothesis is that xenomorph cannot be the name of a fictional creature in Aliens because a scientific term cannot be used for a specific fictional concept/thing in science fiction.

No, that is not my assertion. That assertion is nowhere in the article. My assertion is that "xenomorph" is not the name of a fictional creature in Aliens. The rest of your sentence (especially the "cannot" bit) is you hanging your own baggage and misinterpretations onto my words.

Let's test Lee's assertion....

Enjoy the semantic and mental gymnastics, but they're taking you way, waaaaaaaay far afield.

 

[Mitlov]

x75[/url]":11gyg7o2]If they are supposed to be called Xenomorphs, they should have just named the movie that to begin with. Yet, they didn't do that. This leads me to believe that one might say, "There are xenomorphs called Aliens in the movie Aliens."

If people want to use a generic term like xenomorph to give them a proper name, why don't they instead use the generic term used for the title of the movie?

In other news, Red Dawn isn't actually about metrological phenomena, Twilight takes place mostly in the daytime, and Doctor Who doesn't involve medical professionals (except for Season 3).

 

[Hack-n-Slash]

Mitlov[/url]":39d4wm65]

x75[/url]":39d4wm65]If they are supposed to be called Xenomorphs, they should have just named the movie that to begin with. Yet, they didn't do that. This leads me to believe that one might say, "There are xenomorphs called Aliens in the movie Aliens."

If people want to use a generic term like xenomorph to give them a proper name, why don't they instead use the generic term used for the title of the movie?

In other news, Red Dawn isn't actually about metrological phenomena, Twilight takes place mostly in the daytime, and Doctor Who doesn't involve medical professionals (except for Season 3).

So... The Doctor runs into Peter Quill and the rest of the episode is an Abbott & Costello sketch?

 

[Z1ggy]

Hack-n-Slash[/url]":11x2sxf4]

Mitlov[/url]":11x2sxf4]

x75[/url]":11x2sxf4]If they are supposed to be called Xenomorphs, they should have just named the movie that to begin with. Yet, they didn't do that. This leads me to believe that one might say, "There are xenomorphs called Aliens in the movie Aliens."

If people want to use a generic term like xenomorph to give them a proper name, why don't they instead use the generic term used for the title of the movie?

In other news, Red Dawn isn't actually about metrological phenomena, Twilight takes place mostly in the daytime, and Doctor Who doesn't involve medical professionals (except for Season 3).

So... The Doctor runs into Peter Quill and the rest of the episode is an Abbott & Costello sketch?

THIRD BASE

 

[bb-15]

Pokrface[/url]":1bfckl1o]

bb-15[/url]":1bfckl1o]
Yes, the topic is silly especially since as I understood your earlier comments you haven't recently viewed the films involved that many times.

Then one of us has failed totally at communicating. I've watched Alien and Aliens more times than I can count over the decades. They're like Monty Python & the Holy Grail. I can do both movies without a script.

Fair enough. Let's get into the details.

(bb-15 wrote) Imo, you have missed a basic part of Aliens.

1. The xenomorphs are known by members in the Weapons Division of W/Y.
And there is general knowledge about the xenomorph species.
2. But it is against company rules to bring xenomorph specimens back to earth.
3. This is clearly explained in an intense argument between Burke and Ripley.
Burke wants to smuggle xenomorph specimens to the Weapons Division.
Ripley explains that this is against quarantine and would get Burke into serious trouble.
Then Burke admits that officially trying to transport xenomorph specimens to W/Y would get company Administration involved leading to several issues.

Your opinion that I have missed a basic premise is incorrect. If we're reduced to going point-by-point, then here we go:

1. I deal with this in the article. The "weapons division," if their 57 year-old files about the Nostromo incident are available to view by anyone, has nothing to do with Burke. They don't give him orders and he doesn't work for them. His business card, which you can read for yourself in the movie, says "Special Projects Director, Special Services Division." They certainly haven't given him secret off-the-books orders. Burke explicitly has no knowledge of the aliens outside of what he hears from Ripley.

I never wrote that the Weapons Division gave Burke orders or that he worked for them.
But there seems to be very basic knowledge of the existence of the xenomorphs at the time of Aliens.

2. The quarantine presumably applies to any kind of extraterrestrial organism, since the quarantine is known about by people who clearly don't know about the aliens (i.e., the Nostromo crew at the beginning of the film).

That's right. And this quarantine and other regulations have prevented anyone from officially bringing a xenomorph to earth or W/Y in the first two Alien films.

3. Burke's intention to smuggle the aliens back to the weapons division--which isn't the division he works for--is motivated out of greed, not standing orders. He wants his "goddamn percentage," as Ripley puts it.

Yes, he was motivated by greed.
I assume that part of the motivation of members of the Weapons Division that wanted xenomorph specimens was greed.
I believe that greed played a role with the people who got Ash to be a crew member of the Nostromo.

3a. Burke's line about administration doesn't refer to W-Y at all--he's talking about Colonial Administration, presumably a government group and one of the entities present at Ripley's inquest (along with the ICC--this is stated in special edition dialog).

Burke said;

Burke: if I went and made a major security situation out of it, everybody steps in;

He then lists Administration as part of "everybody".
Everybody implies multiple players who would be against xenomorphs being brought to earth.
* Bottom line; in the first two Alien movies the xenomorphs cannot officially be brought to earth.
This is crucial imo in understanding the backstory in the first two movies.

He clearly admits to Ripley that he was going on her information and wasn't sure that the derelict even existed in the first place. If he was sure, he wouldn't have quietly sent two wildcatters out. His motive is profit and percentage, and there isn't anyone pulling his strings.

Yes, Burke gets information from Ripley that xenomorphs are on LV-426.
But once Burke has that knowledge, then he takes massive risks leading to loss of life and loss of property.
- To take such massive risks indicates that Burke has some knowledge outside of what Ripley said.
Burke knew that these creatures would be very valuable to the Weapons Division.
It would make sense that before implementing his plan that Burke had contacted members of the Weapons Division to make sure they wanted these specimens.

(If you want to go outside the movies for more on this, the Colonial Marines Technical Manual corroborates, in a non-canonical form, that Burke was acting alone.)

For now I'd rather stick to the films themselves, the comments from the film creators and basic timelines from Wiki sites.

(bb-15 wrote) Something had to be known by the Weapons Division of Weyland/Yutani to justify the cost of getting a xenomorph.
After all how would the Weapons Division of W/Y know that the xenomorph could be used in weapons research unless the Weapons Division knew specifics about the xenomorph.
This indicates that the life form on LV-426 was known by W/Y and it was just not a possible life form.
- Considering that, it makes sense for staff at W/Y to give this species a name.

The weapons division knows different things depending on your sources.

Let's stick with the films for right now.
And if I do that, the Weapons Division was willing to be part of efforts that lead to massive loss of life and property.
That indicates to me that getting the xenomorphs would be a very lucrative thing.
But at the same time the Weapons Division could not officially get xenomorph specimens for the reasons Burke explained.

If you go only by the film, what the company knows is ambiguous but less in scope. Ash has the opportunity to do quite a bit of research and how much he radios back is ultimately unknown. The Nostromo was diverted on company orders to get something, but its nature was likely unclear. However, other than what's in the ADF novelization, we don't really know what they knew when they rerouted the Nostromo.

Imo I'm able to piece together the clues from the films to determine basic motivations of the Weapons Division and why members of that department would send Ash to the Nostromo.

The establishment of Hadley's Hope on LV-426 indicates strongly that there's been a cover-up, because why would W-Y's colony-building division drop a bunch of uncontrolled civilians onto the planet, when they could have sent a dedicated scientific research team instead? After all, if they've got the resources to do the first, then they could have done the second as well, with better results!

This is the closest you've come to my view.
* Of course there has been a coverup.
- Why have a mining crew collect the xenomorph specimen in Alien?
The crew had no weapons or particular expertise.
* The backstory to Alien only makes sense imo if;
1. The xenomorph was known to the Weapons Division (as Ripley guessed).
2. The Weapons Division couldn't officially get it.
3. And so members of the Weapons Division wanted Ash to secretly smuggle in specimens to W/Y.

* And those issues explain the establishment of Hadley's Hope on LV-426 where no one from the Weapons Division sounded an alarm re: the danger.
1. No one in the Weapons Division would admit that their department sent Ash to collect xenomorph specimens considering the loss of life on the Nostromo and the massive loss of property.
2. But members of the Weapons Division were more than willing to deal with Burke once he got the information from Ripley.
3. Members of the Weapons Division had wanted a xenomorph for a long time and Burke thought he knew of a way to make that happen. So, they went along with Burke's plan.

But even if we take as a given that the W-Y bioweapons division keeps a project file open for 57 years between movies, it just doesn't make sense that they'd wait that long to follow up and leave the follow-up to chance.

1. The Weapons Division has the file on the xenomorph and what Ash did and what happened to the Nostromo.
Something that major would not be deleted from confidential files.
2. The backstory to Alien only makes sense if the Weapons Division could not officially get to the xenomorph.
3. And that also applies to Aliens. The Weapons Division could not admit that members of their department had been going outside of the rules which led to loss of life and property with the Nostromo.

This is, presumably, a corporation whose power outstrips governments. Why wait? Why not fly a sample-gathering team after the Nostromo is declared overdue? Why establish Hadley's Hope? It just seems more like incompetence and happenstance than malevolent planning.

A basic idea in the first two Alien movies is that the Weapons Division could not officially get the xenomorphs.

(bb-15 wrote) No, imo you have misunderstood.
- The scientific name xenomorph is known.
- But getting a specimen of a xenomorph would be against quarantine and would involve W/Y Administration issues.
* It seems that the Colonial Marines were there to kill xenomorphs and not to bring any of them back to W/Y.

2. Clearly, as evidenced by Alien3, once the company decides to officially go and get an alien, they go and get it--they bring their own private troops and private doctors and science team and they don't care about quarantines.

Yes, in Alien 3 W/Y was able to officially take action to get a xenomorph specimen.
Some policy changed between Aliens and Alien 3.
- But imo it remains true that in the first two Alien movies W/Y could not officially or did not want to officially go and get a xenomorph.

Again, "Administration" here refers to the colonial administration government entity, not anything having to do with W-Y. As is aptly demonstrated in Alien3 and also in Prometheus, W-Y's executive leadership (Mr. Weyland, as well as the Bishop prototype/designer) are all about grabbing the aliens, once they know about them.

1. I already addressed that Burke was referring to more than Administration opposition to bringing in xenomorphs.
2. With the Prometheus film, Peter Weyland was reckless which led to the loss of life and property.
In the years between that film and Alien imo it seems that the company's official policy was to not bring these dangerous creatures and substances back to earth and W/Y.
Administration went along with that.

This is why the operation in Alien had to be sloppily done in secret with unwitting amateurs.

3. The marines were there to investigate the colony and kill any threats, if they found them.

When did I say otherwise? I pretty much wrote that.

You're making a number of assumptions that are provably incorrect.

Some of our disagreement has to do with miscommunication.
- But a major part of our dispute is just us coming up with different explanations of the backstory of a movie franchise that we enjoy a lot.

Anyway, I'll be responding to your other post to me very soon.

Edit; grammar

 

[bb-15]

Pokrface[/url]":2olig5xr]

bb-15[/url]":2olig5xr]
* Essentially Lee's hypothesis is that xenomorph cannot be the name of a fictional creature in Aliens because a scientific term cannot be used for a specific fictional concept/thing in science fiction.

No, that is not my assertion. That assertion is nowhere in the article. My assertion is that "xenomorph" is not the name of a fictional creature in Aliens. The rest of your sentence (especially the "cannot" bit) is you hanging your own baggage and misinterpretations onto my words.

Let's test Lee's assertion....

Enjoy the semantic and mental gymnastics, but they're taking you way, waaaaaaaay far afield.

I was simply basing an argument on a comment that you had previously sent to me which read;

1. Not going to concede that one. It's at best a slang name that's easier to say than just "the aliens," but it's a generic term. James Cameron didn't invent it, either, for those who are thinking that. He used it correctly, but he didn't make the term up.

Xenomorph is a generic term. It has a meaning in geology and was not invented by James Cameron.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenomorph_(geology)
Cameron took that generic / scientific term and used it as a name for something in science fiction.

And my example about Lucas and the Force was that he had done a similar thing.
Force being a generic/scientific term.

The naming of some things in the Star Trek franchise has also followed the same process of taking generic/scientific terms and giving them sci-fi meanings.

* Anyway, I enjoy these types of movie discussions. I've had several of them on IMDb the last 15 years.

 

[Seraphiel]

I interpret it as:

a) Gorman trying to sound impressive and informed by using a fancy word he picked up somewhere, followed by
b) the crew seeing right through his bullshit ("It's a bug hunt.") and then
c) the meeting proceeding with everyone fully aware of everyone else's position.

As for the term "bug hunt" itself, and its contextual contrast against a "stand-up fight," it implies a mission with poorly-defined objectives and risks instead of a straightforward conflict against a clear adversary. It could also be inferred that this squad has been dispatched to handle infestations of non-terrestrial life in other colonial outposts.

There's very little discussion in the films of known, specific encounters with alien life, other than the ones in the movies. There are references to quarantine procedures, but nobody talking about "the time we ran into such and such things," or "that other crew that made contact with the whatever."

Regardless, it's just a show; you should really just relax.

 

[bb-15]

Seraphiel[/url]":35p4qieg]
Regardless, it's just a show; you should really just relax.

If this is directed to me, then thanks. I also wish you the best.

There's very little discussion in the films of known, specific encounters with alien life, other than the ones in the movies. There are references to quarantine procedures, but nobody talking about "the time we ran into such and such things," or "that other crew that made contact with the whatever."

Correct. And that gives a lot of leeway in the way Alien and Aliens are interpreted.

But this also leads to the topic that every reviewer of a movie has the privilege to interpret films in very creative ways.
- The documentary "Room 237" has some unusual reviews of Kubrick's "The Shining".
(This is available on Netflix.)
- Under the umbrella heading of Postmodernist interpretation, a reviewer can decide whatever they wish about what a film means (within some limits imo which I won't get into here).

* But every reviewer also includes me.
And all I was expressing were some story ideas for Alien and Aliens which I think help those films make more sense.
Also part of my method is to go along with the explanations of the film's writers and directors (including Cameron who did say that the name of the creature in Aliens was xenomorph).

* But that is just me.
Of course everyone is entitled to their own way of looking at a movie.

 

[Achronous]

"The word itself is a Greek construct. It combines the prefix xeno, meaning "foreign" or "strange," with the suffix morph, which means a shape or form with the prefix’s supplied attributes. The word xenomorph in this context is a generic term for any "strange or foreign form"—any alien life form."

I think that pretty much settles it. Basically xenomorph means alien. That's all. It's not the name of the actual organism.

What you don't name becomes scarier.

 

[sinewav]

Great article, don't know when I'll use it but good to know nonetheless

 

[twilight23]

I'm confused why anyone was confused. Even when I first saw Aliens (when I was 16), I thought it was very clear that "bug hunt" and "xenomorph" referred to generic alien (and not specifically LV426 Alien).

 

[Lor]

Just take a sledgehammer to that double-dentined f**kface!!