The Rise of China

[Nekojin]

Bammer[/url]":2h66c67y]

Why doesn't China "lose face" when they make themselves look like childish fools over these rocks? Shouldn't they gain "face" by acting like respectable adults and walking away from this? Even if "face" means "looking strong" instead of "looking respectable," it still doesn't make sense, because taking these rocks is as "strong" as mugging some smaller guy on the street.

Or even just offer to buy the damn islands, if they really want them so badly, rather than saber-rattling over them for decades.

On a somewhat interesting note, the Japanese government has expressly forbidden Ishigaki (the city/district it officially belongs to) from developing the island. My guess would be that they don't want to spend money developing an infrastructure to exploit the resources, only to have China blockade it or outright seize it by force of arms.

 

[carlisimo]

I think that's why Japan nationalized the islands. That angered China quite a bit, but it was a much better idea than letting the right-wing governor of Tokyo buy and develop them.

 

[Da Xiang]

This concept of "face" has never made any sense to me. People talk about it like it's about maintaining respectability or something, but then use the term to explain ridiculously embarrassing behavior.

Why doesn't China "lose face" when they make themselves look like childish fools over these rocks? Shouldn't they gain "face" by acting like respectable adults and walking away from this? Even if "face" means "looking strong" instead of "looking respectable," it still doesn't make sense, because taking these rocks is as "strong" as mugging some smaller guy on the street.

It's almost as if the entire concept of the word "face" exists to excuse behavior that is the opposite of what the word "face" is said to mean. Being a brat? A douche? An insecure embarrassment? Handwave it away with the word "face" and then tell Westerners they wouldn't understand.

As an American living in China, I feel compelled to weigh-in on this one. I agree. 'Face' is supremely important to the Chinese and supremely confusing. To a Chinese, answering a question with "I don't know" is nearly unheard of. A Chinese would rather tell you a lie than say "I don't know." Ask a Chinese for directions and they will tell you anything to get you on your way. As the person needing directions, all you can do is keep stopping and asking more people until you sense a consensus.

Many Chinese business people would rather turn away a foreign-looking customer assuming they won't be able to understand them, than confront a situation where they might have to admit they don't understand what the customer wants. This attitude runs so deep that Chinese people will tell me they don't speak English when I've just asked them for a price using what I am told is very good Chinese.

Getting this on-topic. At the individual level, this causes big problems for a foreigner living in China. I do think this attitude must certainly create huge issues when dealing with negotiations between nations.

 

[cf18]

9600man[/url]":46c1zyp9] local HKers do not generally have a positive view about Chinese people from China. It's like how the SRB view Mexicans. But worse. Mexicans just steal jobs and social security. Chinese people from across the border piss on our streets, cut lines, and don't fucking know how to use a god damn escalator. STOP LOOKING DOWN AND SHUFFLING ON TO THE GOD DAMN ESCALATOR!!! JUST STEP ON!!! I hate being stuck behind a tour group from China. Don't they have escalators in China? Good fucking grief. You have no idea how annoying it is to see young people be confused about basic stuff. Like trying to get a subway ticket. I've seen people try to fold up notes and shove it into coin slots in the ticket machines in an attempt to get a train ticket. There's a circle icon with a value on it with an arrow pointing at the coin slot. Folding your money does not make it a circle, it makes it a fucking 4 sided object!!!!

Have scumbags like you developed any new N-works for mainlanders? These internal racism and class discrimination is some of the most disgusting part of Hong Kong (or other more modern part of China), conveniently forgetting our parents and grand parents were equally backward.

 

[9600man]

No. I don't discriminate. Just because I express my frustration, doesn't mean I label them or think or expect the worse. If they ask for help, I help if I can. I never avoid them. The younger kids are more receptive to foreigners and seem eager to learn new cultures.

But I do know the Chinese equivalent for nigger, which has been used on me many times.

The local Chinese do have a deragatory word for mainland Chinese. I believe it's the Chinese word for locusts. I'd never use it. But that's because I know what it's like I get called deragatory words in Chinese and people assume I don't understand. I do know what it's like when I'm walking down a street and some old Chinese woman covers her nose when she's near me because she assumes I'm going to smell. I know what it's like when people see me get on an elevator and they walk out because they don't want to share the elevator with me.


But I'm the fucking scumbag because I rant about some cultural phenonom traced to the closed off nature of china and the tourist seeing the outside world and not being sophisticated enough to fully grasp the world around them and learning that when in Rome act as Romans do and not as Beijing does.

 

[houkoholic]

Bammer[/url]":1z3hezny]This concept of "face" has never made any sense to me. People talk about it like it's about maintaining respectability or something, but then use the term to explain ridiculously embarrassing behavior.

Why doesn't China "lose face" when they make themselves look like childish fools over these rocks? Shouldn't they gain "face" by acting like respectable adults and walking away from this? Even if "face" means "looking strong" instead of "looking respectable," it still doesn't make sense, because taking these rocks is as "strong" as mugging some smaller guy on the street.

It's almost as if the entire concept of the word "face" exists to excuse behavior that is the opposite of what the word "face" is said to mean. Being a brat? A douche? An insecure embarrassment? Handwave it away with the word "face" and then tell Westerners they wouldn't understand.

I think we actually have an equivalent word for this in the West, though it is exclusively used by our douchiestt man children. The word is "bro-code."

The concept of "face" is not exclusive to the Chinese, substitute what Da Xiang
just said about his experience in China with "Japanese" and it equally works (FWIW I've worked in Japan for a extended period as well, and I'm born in HK but educated in Australia, I'm fluent in all 3 languages so I consider myself to have a taste of all the cultures). Simply put the concept of "face" is really just a term refering to stupid people who don't want to admit they are wrong and it happens in all cultures - just head over to the SRB thread for examples of Western politicans doing exactly the same shit to save their own "face".

As for why the Chinese don't want to negotiate with the Japanese and vice versa - that's simply due to the history of the two countries in WW2. The Chinese (government) still paint the Japanese as "those evil foreigners bastards who murdered thousands of our family and occupied our land" so essentially it is the same policy as the Western terms of not negotiating with terrorists as to not appear weak and bow down in front of "evil". OTOH the Japanese (government) also likes to paint themselves as the victum of WW2 (the H bomb and all that, which I don't want to get into) and pretend to not know why China puts up a lot of hate towards them. Also, which is technically true, is they think that Japan only lost to the US and not to China during WW2 so they have no obligation to negotiate to their losers. That's essentially why the two governments aren't going anywhere with these territorial disputes.

Note: I put government in brackets because these kinds of thinking really only happens on the government level - most of the people at the root level don't think like this. Part of the problem with the Japanese is they have a particularly low interest in politics and they are quite passive and not very outspoken so they kept having these right-wingers elected to represent them and thus the most outward facing part of their country are these people which makes it extremely easy for other countries like China to spin the story to fit the "Japanese didn't learnt their lesson from WW2" propaganda (refering to the recent carrier/destroyer piece for example), and the citizens of Japan are left scratching their head as to why the Chinese still seems to hate them so much.

EDIT: A better way of explaining "face" is respect - a person gains respect (face) by doing the correct things or saying the right things, so over a period of time if you do a lot of the right things your respect (and power) grows which tends to make things easy in a social manner (people tend to question you and your actions less and obey them more, for example). However if you make a mistake you then lose that respect from others and the perks associated with it (East Asian cultures are a bit less forgiving to people making mistakes than the West), so in response to this naturally the human defensive behaviour is to deny that you are wrong, worse is that you end up doubling down on the mistake, which is what's happening here between the Chinese and Japanese too actually.

 

[Nekojin]

cf18[/url]":b2hq1x7n]Have scumbags like you developed any new N-works for mainlanders? These internal racism and class discrimination is some of the most disgusting part of Hong Kong (or other more modern part of China), conveniently forgetting our parents and grand parents were equally backward.

/// OFFICIAL MODERATION NOTICE ///

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Calling other posters "scumbags like you" is completely unacceptable. Even if you don't respect another poster's position, at least show them some basic courtesy and consideration.

 

[PandaCheese]

http://news.yahoo.com/japan-shrine-stil ... 20596.html

Here's the one thing that a few other SEA countries can agree with China on.

Anyone read/hear about Oliver Stone's speech in Hiroshima recently? Words were not minced. It's on Youtube somewhere.

http://on.wsj.com/15xhvqv

9600man[/url]":39b9hvne]
But I do know the Chinese equivalent for nigger, which has been used on me many times.

The local Chinese do have a deragatory word for mainland Chinese. I believe it's the Chinese word for locusts. I'd never use it. But that's because I know what it's like I get called deragatory words in Chinese and people assume I don't understand. I do know what it's like when I'm walking down a street and some old Chinese woman covers her nose when she's near me because she assumes I'm going to smell. I know what it's like when people see me get on an elevator and they walk out because they don't want to share the elevator with me.

Don't want to get too sidetracked but racism born out of unfamiliarity, ignorance and the lack of exposure to outside cultures may be different from...I dunno, the other kind, though it's equally offensive to the recipient. Then again some of it is due to stereotypes handed down through history. I mean, typically would you think of say, the reserved altitude toward gaijins in Japan, on the same level as Apartheid? It's definitely "easier" to be racist when most people around you are. There's like zero awareness of this kind of racism too in China in the media and social commentary, despite the growing economic relationship between China and Africa.

 

[GaoZu]

Here is my 2 cents on "face".

Face is not just about not admitting your mistakes or pretending to be knowledgeable when you are ignorant. Instead the general idea is about reputation. For example, a family might tell their child to not "lose face" when she or he is out on their own. Some activities might be whoring around, do drugs, or some other criminal activity. I have to say though I have never seen or hear people use losing face as a way to mask their mistakes.

 

[9600man]

PandaCheese[/url]":37l6ktql]

Don't want to get too sidetracked but racism born out of unfamiliarity, ignorance and the lack of exposure to outside cultures may be different from...I dunno, the other kind, though it's equally offensive to the recipient. Then again some of it is due to stereotypes handed down through history. I mean, typically would you think of say, the reserved altitude toward gaijins in Japan, on the same level as Apartheid? It's definitely "easier" to be racist when most people around you are. There's like zero awareness of this kind of racism too in China in the media and social commentary, despite the growing economic relationship between China and Africa.

Yeah, but I was quoted out of context. He only quoted the part that offended him and totally ignored the rest of the lines where I implied I had no real personal grievances, and I even compared the treatment to the local Chinese to how the SRB treats Mexicans.

The worst infraction where I wasn't quoted properly, was an important part of our tensions with China itself: Our political grievances translating to cultural ones. We do have legit political grievances with China. From their militaristic approach to crushing dissent to their government controlled press where possible global pandemics will likely hit HK shores first and we won't be prepared even tho the Chinese government might have known for months there were increasing cases of a new disease: in our case, SARS.

So our situation is complicated. I personally in Reality 1.0™ if there's a chance to challenge and raise awareness, I do so. And I do it because of my own personal experiences. As a teenager, I was pretty anti-white (went to a british school), but I grew out of that. I do sometimes as a knee jerk reaction say spiteful things, but then I think about what I say and what I feel emotionally and work on it. I don't look to excuse people or myself, but I do try to understand what it is about our differences that can cause misunderstandings and strong negative emotions.

A silly example from my college days: white people wearing their shoes (sneakers) in bed, more specifically they come to my dorm room, jump on my bed and have their shoes on and it's on my blanket!!! While a long time ago that would fuel residual racial anxieties, now through a lot more exposure and experiences I know there are probably more white people who think that behaviour completely inappropriate.

I do make it a point to revel in the differences if they come up, partly because it makes for some great Reality 1.0™ 9600man rants at bars which allows a conversation to develop and we talk about these differences and try to find an acceptance of it. But more importantly, because I have the verbal wit to do so and I enjoy trying to find ways to spin a narrative. (hence why I write so much too )
With people from China, I do bring up the differences in conversation, because if you've read any of my previous posts, I love history and for me understanding why a culture does something, especially if it has historical roots.

Like, what is the historical root of the Japanese word, 'arigato'? Hint: Portugal

 

[GaoZu]

Ha you and your silly British education.

But seriously I don't think that white people jumping on your bed with their shoes on is race or culturally based. I think it is douchebag/asshole based. I have yet to find anyone who think it is normal for people to jump on a bed with shoes on (of course if the shoes are brand new then you can). If someone jumped on my bed with their shoes on I would kick them in the knee and punch them in the face as they are falling down.

On the topic of Hong Kong Vs China issue...

I am not from Hong Kong nor do I know that many Hong Kongian, -ese, -er, etc. But from a guy with Mainland connections, it is pretty common view that Hong Kong people think they are better than Mainlanders because they were ruled by the British. I remember a few years ago there was an article about how some Hong Kong people want to return to British rule, and the some mainlanders saw this as Hong Kong people being "running dogs" of the British. I personally give 0 fucks about these views because it doesn't effect me and I do notice that some Chinese mainlanders are rude assholes. However I have to say this...dim sum is terrible.

Also Arigato and the Portuguese word are not connected and it is just a coincidence.

 

[.劉煒]

However I have to say this...dim sum is terrible

You're bad and you should feel bad.



And no, HK is a better place than the mainland as it is a (partial) democracy for local rule, corruption is beaten down to a low roar usually, and very economically free. One of the traditional 'free ports', though I'd look more at Singapore for that nowadays.

 

[IlleglWpns]

Face is not just about not admitting your mistakes or pretending to be knowledgeable when you are ignorant. Instead the general idea is about reputation. For example, a family might tell their child to not "lose face" when she or he is out on their own. Some activities might be whoring around, do drugs, or some other criminal activity. I have to say though I have never seen or hear people use losing face as a way to mask their mistakes.

If "face" was a synoynm for "don't be a criminal" no one would give a shit.

 

[cf18]

9600man[/url]":s4gi4ilq]
Yeah, but I was quoted out of context. He only quoted the part that offended him and totally ignored the rest of the lines where I implied I had no real personal grievances, and I even compared the treatment to the local Chinese to how the SRB treats Mexicans.

I re-read it and still can't find the part that "implied no real personal grievances". If your rant was actually parading what some local folks would rant then I much apologize for misreading your actual meaning.

 

[Da Xiang]

cf18[/url]":1v37puyj]

9600man[/url]":1v37puyj]
Yeah, but I was quoted out of context. He only quoted the part that offended him and totally ignored the rest of the lines where I implied I had no real personal grievances, and I even compared the treatment to the local Chinese to how the SRB treats Mexicans.

I re-read it and still can't find the part that "implied no real personal grievances". If your rant was actually parading what some local folks would rant then I much apologize for misreading your actual meaning.

I didn't read it as "some people say...." It read as a personal bigoted shit fest.

 

[9600man]

Da Xiang[/url]":2ecdtgrf]

cf18[/url]":2ecdtgrf]

9600man[/url]":2ecdtgrf]
Yeah, but I was quoted out of context. He only quoted the part that offended him and totally ignored the rest of the lines where I implied I had no real personal grievances, and I even compared the treatment to the local Chinese to how the SRB treats Mexicans.

I re-read it and still can't find the part that "implied no real personal grievances". If your rant was actually parading what some local folks would rant then I much apologize for misreading your actual meaning.

I didn't read it as "some people say...." It read as a personal bigoted shit fest.

Here let me help you understand:

9600man[/url]":2ecdtgrf]
Don't say 6/4. It's 'June 4th' at the very least. Google 6/4 and you'll see no results about the Tiananmen Square massacre. Google 'June 4th', and it should be the second result. I was 12 when that happened. I remember the mood at school, classes were all but canceled as our teachers spent most of the day talking to us about what happened in China. It's an important part of our culture and history in HK, a reminder of just how lucky we have it here. We keep the memory alive of those kids who were massacred because we can.

Sorry, I just had to say that.

• June 4th.
• SARS - we had the highest mortality rate from SARS all because of China's lack of transparency and pussy footing around about the details of the initial cases of SARS in China before it started cropping up in Vietnam and other SE Asian cities. Because of that, for the longest time in HK, leaving or coming to HK Airport, you'd get a thermometer stuck in your ear for a temperature read, and you had to write down your travel history the last few months.
• Article 23, when China attempted the patriot act analogue for HK
• The maternity issues as people from China come to HK to give birth, eating up local resources at hospitals, while also trying to give their child the right to abode in HK.


We're pretty sensitive about these thing and for good reason. So make sure you say 'June 4th', either in an english accent or cantonese accent. Otherwise we might think you one of those dirty Chinese from across the border.
While I am joking,




local HKers do not generally have a positive view about Chinese people from China. It's like how the SRB view Mexicans. But worse. Mexicans just steal jobs and social security. Chinese people from across the border piss on our streets, cut lines, and don't fucking know how to use a god damn escalator. STOP LOOKING DOWN AND SHUFFLING ON TO THE GOD DAMN ESCALATOR!!! JUST STEP ON!!! I hate being stuck behind a tour group from China. Don't they have escalators in China? Good fucking grief. You have no idea how annoying it is to see young people be confused about basic stuff. Like trying to get a subway ticket. I've seen people try to fold up notes and shove it into coin slots in the ticket machines in an attempt to get a train ticket. There's a circle icon with a value on it with an arrow pointing at the coin slot. Folding your money does not make it a circle, it makes it a fucking 4 sided object!!!!

If you think the guys (and girls) here have been pissing on China as an 'outsider', you haven't seen the what we do and say here in HK. And I got tons more. Oooohhhh boy, do we got tons more grief here.

I may have not expressed myself properly, but I need to stress this is how some HK local people see the Chinese people in China. It amazes me that local people can racist towards their own people.

 

[9600man]

GaoZu[/url]":3h4j9ppy]

...it is pretty common view that Hong Kong people think they are better than Mainlanders because they were ruled by the British.

No. It's all to do with our views on democracy. We're okay with not being ruled by the British anymore.

I remember a few years ago there was an article about how some Hong Kong people want to return to British rule

Yeah, those are just numbers. The same for any country with a variety of views.

Chinese mainlanders are rude assholes.

No they're not. Aside from cultural differences which clashes in HK. They're just like anyone else. You get the whole gamut. The younger generation especially are more receptive and open.

Also Arigato and the Portuguese word are not connected and it is just a coincidence.

Actually, yes it's connected. Obrigado is the Portuguese word for thank you which the Japanese got from the Portuguese when they arrived in Japan.

 

[m0nckywrench]

I may have not expressed myself properly, but I need to stress this is how some HK local people see the Chinese people in China. It amazes me that local people can racist towards their own people.

You may need to find a better word. Disliking someone's culture is not racist. It is common for sophisticated urbanites to regard rustics with contempt.

 

[archie4oz]

No, it is coincidence. It exists in Japanese texts pre-Portuguese contact. It's just a polite form of arigatai (有難い). There are other words for thanks that are more commonly used in older texts, so it is quite possible that interaction with the Portuguese popularized the word as it was probably something that sounded similar to their own word and easy to pronounce.

 

[9600man]

m0nckywrench[/url]":1oclazfm]

I may have not expressed myself properly, but I need to stress this is how some HK local people see the Chinese people in China. It amazes me that local people can racist towards their own people.

You may need to find a better word. Disliking someone's culture is not racist. It is common for sophisticated urbanites to regard rustics with contempt.

Fair enough.


The tensions here tend to get pretty heated tho:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_2012 ... g_protests


Just to stress to the more sensitive types: these aren't my views. This is what is happening in HK.

 

[9600man]

archie4oz[/url]":2c9gj2hd]No, it is coincidence. It exists in Japanese texts pre-Portuguese contact. It's just a polite form of arigatai (有難い). There are other words for thanks that are more commonly used in older texts, so it is quite possible that interaction with the Portuguese popularized the word as it was probably something that sounded similar to their own word and easy to pronounce.

Ah. Interesting. I'll have to tell my Portuguese friend then.

 

[houkoholic]

9600man[/url]":wtsl8mop]
I may have not expressed myself properly, but I need to stress this is how some HK local people see the Chinese people in China. It amazes me that local people can racist towards their own people.

Why would that surprise you? You can easily find people from the same country where they would discriminate just by city/location or even suburb. In China it's pretty common knowledge that Shanghai-ers and Beijing-ers don't get along. In Japan you have the Kansai-jin (Osaka) vs the Kantou-jin (Tokyo). In the states you have something like the New Yorkers (or is it everyone?) hating the Texans, or the North vs South thing to a similar degree. In Australia the Sydney people and Melbourne people bicker so much since the beginning of the country's history that they had to build Canberra to settle the fight but it's still going. The whole HKer against Mainlander is just the same thing except turned up to 11 because the historic, social and political divide between the people is much greater.

 

[carlisimo]

9600man[/url]":y5kn2k9b]I may have not expressed myself properly, but I need to stress this is how some HK local people see the Chinese people in China. It amazes me that local people can racist towards their own people.

I've been insulted for being (half) southern Taiwanese by northern Taiwanese. There are some politics and national identity issues mixed up in that, but I'm sure that's true in almost every country.

 

[GaoZu]

Is it me or there is always a North vs South hatred type of thing in every country?

 

[Thegn]

"As long as there are two people left on Earth, somebody is going to want someone rubbed out."

 

[archie4oz]

Latitude does funny things to people...

 

[DC]

tuzimaster007[/url]":2r7e9szt]

I wouldn't consider that a good argument, I mean if you want to limit China's claims due to her consumption, then how do you explain America?

Americans aren't saber rattling and threatening to nuke Canada or Mexico for one. We also don't try to lay claims on land some American stepped foot on in 1801 just to get at the oil there.


Instead we just pay to get at the resources through corporations.

Either my sarcasm meter has gone bust or this warrants a:

 

[DC]

GaoZu[/url]":2555txzr]

Vault Dweller[/url]":2555txzr]Money without freedom is useless.

Tell that to the Russian oligarchs or the Chinese millionaires.

Sorry your idea that the Russian Oligarchs are somehow unfree is so astoundingly of the mark that I am at a loss of words. If anything Russia is their paradise due to their might. And I have a hunch the Chinese Milionaires aren't a prosecuted groupp either

 

[U-99]

DC[/url]":153afuap]

GaoZu[/url]":153afuap]

Vault Dweller[/url]":153afuap]Money without freedom is useless.

Tell that to the Russian oligarchs or the Chinese millionaires.

Sorry your idea that the Russian Oligarchs are somehow unfree is so astoundingly of the mark that I am at a loss of words. If anything Russia is their paradise due to their might. And I have a hunch the Chinese Milionaires aren't a prosecuted groupp either

You've misinterpreted. He's saying that personal wealth and power can keep you safe even when there is no constitutional protection from your government. You don't need freedom when money will buy you the same thing.

 

[Deleted member 284552]

DC[/url]":2n3vxgwv]

tuzimaster007[/url]":2n3vxgwv]

I wouldn't consider that a good argument, I mean if you want to limit China's claims due to her consumption, then how do you explain America?

Americans aren't saber rattling and threatening to nuke Canada or Mexico for one. We also don't try to lay claims on land some American stepped foot on in 1801 just to get at the oil there.


Instead we just pay to get at the resources through corporations.

Either my sarcasm meter has gone bust or this warrants a:

Sarcasm. Gaozu had a bit earlier in the tread been talking about nuking japan & raining biological weapons on them over the Senkaku Islands. GaoZu had been saying that because China needs the resources, she should take them. I pointed out that the comparison is a poor one, because the U.S. isn't saber rattling and acting aggressive to it's neighbors just because they might have resources that the U.S. might want. Instead the U.S just buys them.

 

[GaoZu]

What do you consider a resource?

 

[Deleted member 284552]

Fish, oil, minerals. Basically anything that you can take out of the sea and use to some productive purpose. Territory and land could also be considered, but those mean less for the most part in the modern world. You can have some fantastically rich countries on a small amount of land - see Singapore. Then you can have really poor countries that are pretty big - Kazakhstan or Mongolia come to mind. [Edit: read up Kazakhstan and it's actually not all that poor. Oil exports are buoying it's economy. Mongolia has mining but not much else besides that]

 

[skylarjones]

Da Xiang[/url]":1ehr3xv2]

This concept of "face" has never made any sense to me. People talk about it like it's about maintaining respectability or something, but then use the term to explain ridiculously embarrassing behavior.

Why doesn't China "lose face" when they make themselves look like childish fools over these rocks? Shouldn't they gain "face" by acting like respectable adults and walking away from this? Even if "face" means "looking strong" instead of "looking respectable," it still doesn't make sense, because taking these rocks is as "strong" as mugging some smaller guy on the street.

It's almost as if the entire concept of the word "face" exists to excuse behavior that is the opposite of what the word "face" is said to mean. Being a brat? A douche? An insecure embarrassment? Handwave it away with the word "face" and then tell Westerners they wouldn't understand.

As an American living in China, I feel compelled to weigh-in on this one. I agree. 'Face' is supremely important to the Chinese and supremely confusing. To a Chinese, answering a question with "I don't know" is nearly unheard of. A Chinese would rather tell you a lie than say "I don't know." Ask a Chinese for directions and they will tell you anything to get you on your way. As the person needing directions, all you can do is keep stopping and asking more people until you sense a consensus.

Many Chinese business people would rather turn away a foreign-looking customer assuming they won't be able to understand them, than confront a situation where they might have to admit they don't understand what the customer wants. This attitude runs so deep that Chinese people will tell me they don't speak English when I've just asked them for a price using what I am told is very good Chinese.

Getting this on-topic. At the individual level, this causes big problems for a foreigner living in China. I do think this attitude must certainly create huge issues when dealing with negotiations between nations.

More likely than not, they just don't want to deal with you; it's ethnocentrism.

 

[GaoZu]

There is still an ongoing dispute about the Bajo Nuevo Bank, of course guano has been some what replaced by synthetic whatevers. Another area is the Serranilla Bank due to the same reason. These two disputes can be related to two separate territory disputes for China.

1. Resource under the Diaoyu Island
2. People say that it is complete nonsense that China should claim the Spratley Islands since it is so far south and outside of their zone. Just so you know, the two territories I just listed is quite a few hundred miles south of Cuba, so these areas are also completely outside of any US waters.

 

[GaoZu]

skylarjones[/url]"n1yo2yp]

Da Xiang[/url]"n1yo2yp]

This concept of "face" has never made any sense to me. People talk about it like it's about maintaining respectability or something, but then use the term to explain ridiculously embarrassing behavior.

Why doesn't China "lose face" when they make themselves look like childish fools over these rocks? Shouldn't they gain "face" by acting like respectable adults and walking away from this? Even if "face" means "looking strong" instead of "looking respectable," it still doesn't make sense, because taking these rocks is as "strong" as mugging some smaller guy on the street.

It's almost as if the entire concept of the word "face" exists to excuse behavior that is the opposite of what the word "face" is said to mean. Being a brat? A douche? An insecure embarrassment? Handwave it away with the word "face" and then tell Westerners they wouldn't understand.

As an American living in China, I feel compelled to weigh-in on this one. I agree. 'Face' is supremely important to the Chinese and supremely confusing. To a Chinese, answering a question with "I don't know" is nearly unheard of. A Chinese would rather tell you a lie than say "I don't know." Ask a Chinese for directions and they will tell you anything to get you on your way. As the person needing directions, all you can do is keep stopping and asking more people until you sense a consensus.

Many Chinese business people would rather turn away a foreign-looking customer assuming they won't be able to understand them, than confront a situation where they might have to admit they don't understand what the customer wants. This attitude runs so deep that Chinese people will tell me they don't speak English when I've just asked them for a price using what I am told is very good Chinese.

Getting this on-topic. At the individual level, this causes big problems for a foreigner living in China. I do think this attitude must certainly create huge issues when dealing with negotiations between nations.

More likely than not, they just don't want to deal with you; it's ethnocentrism.

I beg to differ, I have seen a lot of sellers trying to sell things to Europeans/Americans.

 

[skylarjones]

Chinese "Face" is a form of honor that has more to do with one's personal dignity than one's integrity.

 

[GaoZu]

In other news, the Americans are also responsible for the Japanese denial of crimes against humanity.

 

[eXceLon]

GaoZu[/url]":22w944sz]In other news, the Americans are also responsible for the Japanese denial of crimes against humanity.

Care to elaborate?

 

[GaoZu]

I might have written that wrong, what I meant to say was the Americans are responsible for the distortion of facts in the Japanese aggressions. Instead of putting the blame on those responsible, most of the responsible people were cleared and let go. Now instead of hating those people, the Japanese people worship these "innocent saints". How they are peace loving and all that.

Who am I talking about? The Imperial family, Hirohito and his family members. To me the idea of Hirohito being this innocent figure head is nothing less than bullshit. I understand why the Allied Occupation force wanted to keep him alive and in power. But by doing so the Japanese people are learning about distorted facts about the war. Which helps them to rally around a government that is actually nothing but a monster.

 

[eXceLon]

So by "other news", you were referring to events that happened nearly seventy years ago? Can you maybe see why no one would have any clue what you were talking about?