The Perpetual Firearms Thread

[invertedpanda]

I keep coming back in my head to the "cheap general-purpose rifle"; Something I can toss a decent scope on and get 1-2 MOA accuracy or better and plink out to 600 yards, has plenty of MLOK space, is adjustable + customizable (w/ pistol grip), and has a 16" barrel in 223 that's ALSO IL-compliant.

I had considered Bear Creek's bolt action AR upper (well, considered buying a pre-built because you can't legally just order the parts, esp. not the lower) before, but saw some folks complaining about how sticky/stiff the bolt is to operate. I decided to do some checking for more recent reviews, and found 2 things:

One, the bolt will loosen up after a bit, and two: It looks like you need to operate it just a bit differently than you would a traditional bolt, and if you do it properly it's just as smooth.

So, this thing is back in the running for me.. And even better, the full rifles can be had for less than $500; That's poverty-pony pricing right there, and you get better accuracy than a bog-standard cheap AR-15.

Bonus: If the AWB ever gets lifted in IL I'll be able to swap the upper for something traditional and have a regular AR-15.

I'd also consider a straight-pull based AR-15, but haven't seen many of those yet.

 

[Boskone]

How important is the pseudo-AR ability? A Savage Axis in .243 would be about your target price (at least around here) and stated accuracy, and ammo's readily available and suitable for target shooting or most North American game.

Swap to a Magpul Hunter Lite, MDT Field Stock, or some such and you'd pick up some M-lok while staying near your target, and I think most would convert the gun to AICS-pattern mags. You should still be close to your target price.

 

[invertedpanda]

How important is the pseudo-AR ability? A Savage Axis in .243 would be about your target price (at least around here) and stated accuracy, and ammo's readily available and suitable for target shooting or most North American game.

Swap to a Magpul Hunter Lite, MDT Field Stock, or some such and you'd pick up some M-lok while staying near your target, and I think most would convert the gun to AICS-pattern mags. You should still be close to your target price.

The ideal situation would be an AR-15; Something that I have a variety of customization options available for, especially if/when laws open back up.. And I want .223/5.56 just because it's extremely ubiquitous for this (as well as low recoil).

I still want a more traditional bolt gun for non-22LR ELR shooting, but in that case I'd probably just do a fuller specialized build in 308 or 6.5 CM (308 mostly because I want more of a challenge).

 

[NervousEnergy]

How important is the pseudo-AR ability? A Savage Axis in .243 would be about your target price

God, memory lane triggered. My first rifle, a gift when I was 12, was a left-hand bolt Savage 243 (I'm cross dominate). Sold it a few years ago since it had been taking up space in various closets for 40 years without being fired. That and my first shotgun - a 20 gage single barrel break-open. Weighed next to nothing and therefore kicked hard even though it was a 20. Much preferred my dad's 1100 in 12 - recoil was much softer.

 

[CUclimber]

Got to fire a full-auto MP5 today. 3 big takeaways:
1. That's a heck of a quick way to throw a lot of money downrange in a hurry. Especially with someone speed-loading the spare mags.
2. You can't hit shit at 50yds on full auto
3. The "machine gun smile" is real. That was incredibly fun

 

[invertedpanda]

Was that full-auto or FRT?

 

[CUclimber]

Full auto, with the 3-round selector as well; I'm assuming the 30-round mags are fairly standard. My buddy owns it, along with another semi-auto one with a suppressor.

 

[invertedpanda]

Was just randomly thinking about conceal-carry 22LR again, and I realized something: There aren't many DA/SA 22LR pistols out there.

Sure, you've got plenty of DA revolvers, but the DA/SA mag-fed pistol market in 22LR is exceptionally slim. Ruger and Walther both have options in the field, but the rest are all smaller imports.. And Walther's you can't even own in IL because of it's low-melting-point construction (which is a shame, because the modern P22Q has pretty solid reviews).

DA/SA just makes a lot of sense for 22LR - especially in the concealed carry world - because the ability to follow up a light primer strike with a DA trigger pull is fantastic with something that is affordable and accessible for a lot of folks.

Plus, 22LR ammo has gotten a lot better now. Good 22LR defensive ammo - Federal Premium Punch for example - can be extremely reliable AND effective (meeting FBI penetration standards if that's your jam)..

Mostly the idea popped into my head while I was dry-fire training on my P09F during my lunch break; Carpal tunnel is getting worse, and while I don't have a conceal carry permit (too expensive - training reqs + fees costs more than a good budget pistol in IL), I keep thinking "what if".

 

[Hap]

I have one of these (FN 502) and like it. Pricey though.

 

[invertedpanda]

I have one of these (FN 502) and like it. Pricey though.

A bit larger than I'd like if I were considering conceal carry though. It is one of my "Shiny, want" pistols, though, just because.. Well, it's an FN

 

[Coppercloud]

Ok, so I might have re-upped my MN carry permit recently. I'm 100% aware that the live fire portion is more about handling a gun safely than being competent at shooting it. I've seen other people shoot before and know that not everyone's standards are high. I grew up throwing thousands of rounds out of a .22 LR for kicks on weekends as a kid and while I don't expect to be called an expert I also recognize my standards might be higher. Never the less, I took my time to peek at other people's targets while I was doing the live fire and it's fuckin scary. We shot at 5 and 7 yards, without any sort of additional stress or timer other than knowing people were watching and there were people that could barely keep it on the silhouette. Like... That's not far away! Some of these people were acting like gun nuts that shoot every day and know everything and are practiced and they could barely hit the target. I haven't shot my pistol in 5 years and I still did just fine keeping a grouping, but out of the ~20 of us I'd say only one other person there was competent.

To say nothing of the handling of the firearms (which largely stayed pointed down range except one dude who had his in a fabric holster he wasn't wearing and just couldn't stop himself from waving it around everywhere) people's accuracy scares the hell out of me.

 

[kperrier]

what were you shooting vs. the other people? .22 vs. .45 OG 1911? Were they mag dumping and you were shooting 1 with a purposeful reset after each? As I understood what you said, there didn't appear to be a standard for the qual. Does someone need to ND to fail?

 

[Hap]

Last time I took a test (I was running a security team for a church and insurance required it). I scored perfect because the target was so close. Regardless it was NOT hard, unlike the qual to get in the NRA instructor course.

In this test (same as the state LEO test), 1 scored perfect, 2 had passable scores, 1 had marginal, and 1 failed. It was NOT a hard test.

 

[Coppercloud]

what were you shooting vs. the other people? .22 vs. .45 OG 1911? Were they mag dumping and you were shooting 1 with a purposeful reset after each? As I understood what you said, there didn't appear to be a standard for the qual. Does someone need to ND to fail?

My understanding is the law specifies you must do a live fire, and specifies that it must include two different ranges. It does not specify what qualifies a passing exam, and that is up to the instructor (again, about safety, not proficiency).

As for how/what people were shooting? Didn't catch the makes but lots of what you would expect seeing 9, 40, 45. Calibers. Nobody was mag dumping. Everyone seemed to be taking their time and doing their best. It was wild. I will say the instructor wanted us to fire at least 5 rounds both right hand only and left hand only, and I totally expect that to throw people off. I've never shot left handed before. But it wasn't like anyone had a grouping and then "oh these are the one handed shots". Almost every target looked like a random number generator poking holes in a 2ft x 3ft box.

 

[invertedpanda]

Ok, so I might have re-upped my MN carry permit recently. I'm 100% aware that the live fire portion is more about handling a gun safely than being competent at shooting it. I've seen other people shoot before and know that not everyone's standards are high. I grew up throwing thousands of rounds out of a .22 LR for kicks on weekends as a kid and while I don't expect to be called an expert I also recognize my standards might be higher. Never the less, I took my time to peek at other people's targets while I was doing the live fire and it's fuckin scary. We shot at 5 and 7 yards, without any sort of additional stress or timer other than knowing people were watching and there were people that could barely keep it on the silhouette. Like... That's not far away! Some of these people were acting like gun nuts that shoot every day and know everything and are practiced and they could barely hit the target. I haven't shot my pistol in 5 years and I still did just fine keeping a grouping, but out of the ~20 of us I'd say only one other person there was competent.

To say nothing of the handling of the firearms (which largely stayed pointed down range except one dude who had his in a fabric holster he wasn't wearing and just couldn't stop himself from waving it around everywhere) people's accuracy scares the hell out of me.

I've done range trips following local PD doing their regular qual/training, and it is shocking how bad some are after seeing their target sheets.. Like, I've never been a spectacular pistol shooter - especially with my arthritis and carpal tunnel - but I am at least able to hit a torso-sized target consistently at 15 yards without any issues.

 

[Coppercloud]

The thing that hit me so hard was not how bad some people are. It's how bad everyone was. Like, my buddy's wife is a terrible shot. She also doesn't plan on carrying a pistol, she just wants to be permitted to (maybe he wants to have a drink and hand the pistol off to her, maybe she has need to cross a road with one during deer season, etc.). I fully expect some people to be terrible. But then you have the 55 year old farmer that's been hunting his whole life, the ex military guy, the dude dressed in tactical gear that won't shut up about how he shoots off his porch every day... I just expected a little more competency out of some of them.

 

[drogin]

My understanding is the law specifies you must do a live fire, and specifies that it must include two different ranges. It does not specify what qualifies a passing exam, and that is up to the instructor (again, about safety, not proficiency).

As for how/what people were shooting? Didn't catch the makes but lots of what you would expect seeing 9, 40, 45. Calibers. Nobody was mag dumping. Everyone seemed to be taking their time and doing their best. It was wild. I will say the instructor wanted us to fire at least 5 rounds both right hand only and left hand only, and I totally expect that to throw people off. I've never shot left handed before. But it wasn't like anyone had a grouping and then "oh these are the one handed shots". Almost every target looked like a random number generator poking holes in a 2ft x 3ft box.

Yeah, I think people in general don't really understand why folks say that it's "harder" to shoot a pistol versus a long gun.

From a usage standpoint, they have all of the same variables that need to be mitigated. Long guns just so happen to have more physical characteristics that help to mitigate those variables.

So I think for me the nuance has really been:

Long guns are "easier" to shoot at the ranges they are most commonly employed (0-200 yards) but get much, much harder to use beyond their most commonly employed ranges (200+ yards).

Pistols are more difficult to shoot well at the ranges for which they are commonly employed (0-10 yards).

So, with a long gun, you can put a first time shooter at a stable shooting position and they will be hitting at 25 yards with almost no effort, and even poor trigger pulls are typically still on paper.

Giving a first time shooter a pistol...even making a hit at 5 yards is not something I get surprised seeing people fail at.

I'm not even what I consider an experienced pistol shooter...but I was able to become competent very quickly because I was able to understand the above and knew where I needed to fill gaps for skills that don't translate between long gun and pistol. More importantly, I knew where to look to learn how to fill those gaps.

 

[Boskone]

I've done range trips following local PD doing their regular qual/training, and it is shocking how bad some are after seeing their target sheets.. Like, I've never been a spectacular pistol shooter - especially with my arthritis and carpal tunnel - but I am at least able to hit a torso-sized target consistently at 15 yards without any issues.

You should see Air Force security personnel.

At least back in the '90s they made the A-team look like snipers, and their range safety...wasn't. Present, that is.

 

[dredphul]

I've done range trips following local PD doing their regular qual/training, and it is shocking how bad some are after seeing their target sheets.. Like, I've never been a spectacular pistol shooter - especially with my arthritis and carpal tunnel - but I am at least able to hit a torso-sized target consistently at 15 yards without any issues.

I think for a lot of police officers, guns are just a part of the job.

I know officers who are really into shooting and will take personal time to practice, but I think there's a lot of officers who only practice because the job makes them go to the range and practice annually.

 

[kperrier]

I don't know of any police department that requires N number of hours of firearm training. Just like they don't requires BJJ or other grapleing training. Both of which would be highly useful for their jobs.

 

[Hap]

I don't know of any police department that requires N number of hours of firearm training. Just like they don't requires BJJ or other grapleing training. Both of which would be highly useful for their jobs.

SWAT units are the only ones in general I know of that do actual firearm training and I’m not sure that is universal. I know the local ones train pretty extensively.

 

[CUclimber]

Giving a first time shooter a pistol...even making a hit at 5 yards is not something I get surprised seeing people fail at.

I'm not even what I consider an experienced pistol shooter...but I was able to become competent very quickly because I was able to understand the above and knew where I needed to fill gaps for skills that don't translate between long gun and pistol. More importantly, I knew where to look to learn how to fill those gaps.

Good teachers help a lot. I've been going to the range with a couple of super experienced friends and I was getting hits at ~50m with a Beretta M9 pretty reliably last week; just single shots with a couple of seconds to reset between each one, but it wasn't terribly difficult. I can definitely see, as a new shooter, how people could develop some really bad habits early on without any instruction.

 

[drogin]

Good teachers help a lot. I've been going to the range with a couple of super experienced friends and I was getting hits at ~50m with a Beretta M9 pretty reliably last week; just single shots with a couple of seconds to reset between each one, but it wasn't terribly difficult. I can definitely see, as a new shooter, how people could develop some really bad habits early on without any instruction.

100%. That's the deceptive part. A "poorly trained" person firing a long gun can make "hits" out to 200 yards. I'm not talking about "tight groups", I'm just saying "hits". So even a newbie can operate effectively in the most common ranges for "real world use" whether that is sporting or tactical.

A poorly trained pistol shooter can easily miss at 5 yards. Which sucks, because that's well within the ranges you expect to use something like a pistol.

Now, a pistol shooter with some training can go well beyond the expected range of use with a pistol, as can a person who gets enough training with a long gun.

It always comes down to training. I just think it's an interesting difference between the two formats when you consider the ranges at which they are routinely used.

 

[Kaiser Sosei]

I've done range trips following local PD doing their regular qual/training, and it is shocking how bad some are after seeing their target sheets.. Like, I've never been a spectacular pistol shooter - especially with my arthritis and carpal tunnel - but I am at least able to hit a torso-sized target consistently at 15 yards without any issues.

Any time I've been to the range and Police show up I usually leave or move as far away from them as possible. They suck at general safety, they suck at shooting, and most places I've been to won't correct them as they are easy money makers.

In general most people aren't great shooters. Coming from the hunting side of the sport , most people at the ranges that I see would starve.

 

[drogin]

Any time I've been to the range and Police show up I usually leave or move as far away from them as possible. They suck at general safety, they suck at shooting, and most places I've been to won't correct them as they are easy money makers.

In general most people aren't great shooters. Coming from the hunting side of the sport , most people at the ranges that I see would starve.

Sure, but as important as it is, shooting is like, 1/100th of what makes someone a competent hunter.

 

[NervousEnergy]

It's also consistency of practice. 6 years ago I was a very competent pistol shooter - A class USPSA. I shot at least a case a month, and some months two, just in local matches. Then I switched to PCC. The fun factor went up a lot, but I also stopped shooting pistol almost completely. Like 2-3 times a year. My acquisition speed and grip consistency disappeared. Distance accuracy really suffered, and even medium range - like 10 yards to a small plate - was frustratingly random.

It's tempting to pick up a nice carry optic weapon and try and get back into the rhythm, but it's just too easy to grab the MPX and roll. If I ever do the CCW thing it'll probably be an MP5 clone and a jacket. At least I'd be confident of hitting exactly what I was aiming at.

 

[drogin]

It's also consistency of practice. 6 years ago I was a very competent pistol shooter - A class USPSA. I shot at least a case a month, and some months two, just in local matches. Then I switched to PCC. The fun factor went up a lot, but I also stopped shooting pistol almost completely. Like 2-3 times a year. My acquisition speed and grip consistency disappeared. Distance accuracy really suffered, and even medium range - like 10 yards to a small plate - was frustratingly random.

It's tempting to pick up a nice carry optic weapon and try and get back into the rhythm, but it's just too easy to grab the MPX and roll. If I ever do the CCW thing it'll probably be an MP5 clone and a jacket. At least I'd be confident of hitting exactly what I was aiming at.

I mean, rolling out of your house with an MP5 under your sport coat does sound peak 1990s bad-ass.

I agree. I think you definitely need maintenance training with a pistol to keep to a level of competent.

I guess there's also the definition of "competent".

To me, "base competence" is that I can safely load, unload, make safe, and get on paper at 5-7 yards on a flat range.

Being competent enough to actually carry? I think that's absolutely a lot more of a bar...

All I am competent for right now is flat range. I lack the level of training I'd want before being comfortable carrying.

 

[NervousEnergy]

Being competent enough to actually carry? I think that's absolutely a lot more of a bar...

Oh yeah... my reply wasn't as obvious as I thought in retrospect - you don't need a CCW in Texas, but I still don't carry, and wouldn't even with the cert. The few times I've done so I worried far, far more about the security and safety of the gun then I did about the potential of having to use it. At least with an SBR 'pistol' variant (that's not legally an SBR though it probably should be) I'd be supremely confident of hitting the target, but I'd still be far more likely to try and get away from any emergency situation than stand ground. Psychologically I'd need to be completely cornered before I'd even consider it, and even then I'd hesitate - I'm too non-confrontational. It's absolutely not worth the stress/worry of carrying for me.

Now having that suppressed MP5 clone handy in the house is a different matter. An intruder is a totally different psychological / moral situation for me personally.

 

[Tom the Melaniephile]

Any time I've been to the range and Police show up I usually leave or move as far away from them as possible. They suck at general safety, they suck at shooting, and most places I've been to won't correct them as they are easy money makers.

The family story I was told was that when my grandfather was a NYC beat cop (early 1940s to early 1960s) - there was an annual range requalification day. He would go in, shoot his string and get the rest of the day off. Apparently it was common for other cops to spend a good portion (or all) of the day re-shooting the qualifier to eventually get a passing score.

He was in pretty poor health by the time I knew him and he died just after I became a teen. Never got to go shooting with him. Apparently both my grandfathers were quite proficient at shooting, but it skipped a generation. My parents had no interest but my brother and I shot competitively in HS.

 

[kperrier]

suppressed MP5 clone

with an FRT, right?

 

[Hap]

with an FRT, right?

I know you're being sarcastic, but -

There is a reason my FRT equipped AR-15 SBR stays in the safe. My bedside gun is a .300BO SBR AR, along with a .40S&W Springfield Armory pistol.

 

[Kaiser Sosei]

The family story I was told was that when my grandfather was a NYC beat cop (early 1940s to early 1960s) - there was an annual range requalification day. He would go in, shoot his string and get the rest of the day off. Apparently it was common for other cops to spend a good portion (or all) of the day re-shooting the qualifier to eventually get a passing score.

He was in pretty poor health by the time I knew him and he died just after I became a teen. Never got to go shooting with him. Apparently both my grandfathers were quite proficient at shooting, but it skipped a generation. My parents had no interest but my brother and I shot competitively in HS.

I try and give most people a lot of slack as has been mentioned practice is a large part of shooting well and that's what you should be doing at the range. Much like not making fun of the morbidly obese person at the gym struggling on the treadmill, they are there and trying.

It gets old after a few times of being pointed at with a loaded firearm with a finger on the trigger and watching those same people unable to hit a silhouette at 10 yards or less. I've had people come up to me and ask for pointers and I will gladly help anyone that asks. Normal shooters will at least take some criticism of "Hey don't point the gun at things you don't want to shoot", police are less receptive.

Sure, but as important as it is, shooting is like, 1/100th of what makes someone a competent hunter.

While I agree that she shooting part is not the whole deal, why waste the 99% of your effort by not being able to reliably hit your target.

I guess I'm just a little cranky as I have nowhere to go and ammo prices are still crazy. My neighbor hand loads and I was going to start doing that, except it wasn't any cheaper. There is one Range close to me and as mentioned, it kinda sucks. The last time I was there the heaters were broken so you had fresh outside air blasting across you at 40 degrees F. Made for a short and crappy day.

Anyone in the Seattle area have a recommendation that isn't "West Coast Armory North"?

 

[NervousEnergy]

with an FRT, right?

Unlike Hap, I don't even have one in the safe. If I bought something like that (and it would be an integrally suppressed B&T, not a true MP5 clone) I wouldn't even put a comp trigger on it like pretty much every other weapon in my home (they're all gaming guns); I'd stay with the duty trigger.

Right now the ready gun is the 9mm Tavor X95, but it's not suppressed, and I know if I have to use that thing in the house I'm trading likely more permanent hearing damage for staying alive.

 

[Hap]

Right now the ready gun is the 9mm Tavor X95, but it's not suppressed, and I know if I have to use that thing in the house I'm trading likely more permanent hearing damage for staying alive.

I need to suppress both my .300BO and Kriss Vector (my office ready gun) and we were just talking about that since my wife would have to submit fingerprints (Trust) for me to get a suppressor.

As for bullpups, I find them heavier and slower to transition than my .300 or Kriss. The X95 (mine is 5.56) is suprisingly heavy. Although nothing is as barrel heavy as a M1A, I don't know how anyone points that thing without propping it on something and I'm by no means weak.

 

[Tom the Melaniephile]

I need to suppress both my .300BO and Kriss Vector (my office ready gun) and we were just talking about that since my wife would have to submit fingerprints (Trust) for me to get a suppressor.

Presumably you want her on the trust in order to be sure there's no LE-fuckery if you leave the suppressor at home while being elsewhere?

 

[Tom the Melaniephile]

I guess I'm just a little cranky as I have nowhere to go and ammo prices are still crazy. My neighbor hand loads and I was going to start doing that, except it wasn't any cheaper.

Are you Austin-ish? I've got a fair amount of older reloading supplies that I ended up with. Happy to give 'em away - but not to a rando and I'm not dealing with shipping.

 

[Kaiser Sosei]

Nope, I'm in the PNW, north of Seattle. At the time I priced all the parts a while back and it didn't seem like it was cheaper, especially including my time. This was just me buying the parts and using my neighbors tools. Much like housing the best time to buy components was in the 90's or before. I'll revisit if I ever get back to going to the range regularly. Appreciate the offer.

 

[Hap]

Presumably you want her on the trust in order to be sure there's no LE-fuckery if you leave the suppressor at home while being elsewhere?

Mostly, yes. Plus, if something happens to me - no legal issues on her having the NFA items as I currently have 3 SBRs.

 

[NervousEnergy]

As for bullpups, I find them heavier and slower to transition than my .300 or Kriss. The X95 (mine is 5.56) is suprisingly heavy. Although nothing is as barrel heavy as a M1A, I don't know how anyone points that thing without propping it on something and I'm by no means weak.

Yes, it was an early purchase in the gaming days and had a certain 'neat' factor, and at the time I was mainly shooting IDPA which loves tight, tight corners. The 9mm version is a bit lighter than the 556, but it's still torso twist transitions instead of driving muzzle with the out hand, which is way slower. It's also nearly impossible to seat a mag on a closed bolt. Gamed for right at a year with it and switched to MPX.

I could suppress it and that would solve the issue, but others have reported it's going to put a lot of gas in the face if I do (the 9mm conversion doesn't use a piston drive like the 556). If I could find the RAT Worx suppressor specifically made for it I'd do that in a heartbeat - they're not made anymore though and seem to be very rare on the market. Piston-drive MPXs are also known to throw a lot of gas back when suppressed. Hence my interest in a B&T APC or SPC - the integral suppressor seems to produce very little to no gas blowback.

 

[Hap]

Good to know. I have not thought about suppressing my Tavor, but have my Hellion (which is a little lighter), but the two ready guns will be the first. I also have a 10mm OSP SA pistol with threaded barrel I will eventually suppress.