The future of car suspension is here: DSC Sport’s active shocks in action

It constantly samples data from the car's network, adapting the damping at 100Hz

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[Ed M.]

Good, when can I get it for my Mustang and how much will it cost?

 

[Dr Gitlin]

Ed M.[/url]":v2umobva]Good, when can I get it for my Mustang and how much will it cost?

About $1200, although you'd need to contact DSC Sport and see if they've got it working with Fords yet.

 

[beebee]

MHz sampling. Really? This was some time ago, but I was bidding a custom chip for a gryo where the bandwidth was a KHZ. It is really hard to shake these heavy objects at a high frequency, both from the external physical shock. (stimulus) and from the actuators you will be using as a compensation.

 

[Solidstate89]

McLaren's hydraulic suspension trickery is such that their super cars (P1, MP4-12C, 650S) don't even have anti-sway bars, instead relying entirely on the hydraulic system to not only control the suspension, but the stiffness as well.

 

[Jimmy McNulty]

How is this better than MagneRide which use a ferro-magnetic fluid and electro-magnets instead of hydraulic pumps? MagneRide is 4th gen and is available from the factory in a variety of cars from chevy, audi, ferrari and land rover.

 

[amp88]

One of these times it might just catch on. Whether the time is right for it now...who knows?

Incidentally, active damping is in development for tanks. Also worth a watch: a contemporary short video explaining how the 1987 Lotus 99T's active suspension works, and a ~1995 Citroën Xantia Activa promotional video (French commentary).

 

[amp88]

ferrels[/url]":yw6677hw]Why is this news? Active dampening has been around since the 1980's. Let me guess....the author is a 20 something hipster who thinks he's made an awesome discovery or has played Project CARS twice..

If you read the article you'll see the author makes note of the development and use of active suspension technology in F1.

 

[tetrapyloctomy]

But can it jump over obstacles in its path?

 

[Kilroy420]

Jimmy McNulty[/url]":370a0228]How is this better than MagneRide which use a ferro-magnetic fluid and electro-magnets instead of hydraulic pumps? MagneRide is 4th gen and is available from the factory in a variety of cars from chevy, audi, ferrari and land rover.

Interesting. I would like to see head-to-head comparisons against both systems.

Numbers unseen, I would prefer the system with the least moving parts/components; Less components to break/fail, or replace from wear.

 

[araemo]

tetrapyloctomy[/url]":x43vohrw]But can it jump over obstacles in its path?

Interesting fact about that demo: The suspension movement was based on a pre-recorded movement, so basically they just had to be careful about timing and speed. It wasn't actually real-time dynamic. (Which explains how they made it look so good way back when they did that demo, without the processing power we have now.)

 

[zplus]

beebee[/url]":3lszs7p6]MHz sampling. Really? This was some time ago, but I was bidding a custom chip for a gryo where the bandwidth was a KHZ. It is really hard to shake these heavy objects at a high frequency, both from the external physical shock. (stimulus) and from the actuators you will be using as a compensation.

No where near 1 MHz sampling, the entire bus is operating at 1Mbps.
From the article:

The ECU pulls in 1Mbps data from the CANbus, and controls the shocks at 100Hz—every 6 milliseconds, which Levitas describes as "near-enough real-time."

 

[araemo]

Jimmy McNulty[/url]":10dkbn0n]How is this better than MagneRide which use a ferro-magnetic fluid and electro-magnets instead of hydraulic pumps? MagneRide is 4th gen and is available from the factory in a variety of cars from chevy, audi, ferrari and land rover.

That's a pretty good question. Magneride isn't a one-size-fits-all either, it has its own control unit (Not an 'engine' control unit though.. though I guess ECU could possibly also mean 'electronics control unit', it's typically the Engine Control Unit.)

MagneRide has actually gone through a number of revisions over the years, and the exact tuning is different for different vehicles, so I'd imagine that MagneRide on a Ferrari is probably going to get a bit more platform-specific development money and time than say the MagneRide on the Chevrolet SS, though how much each improves its platform over a standard suspension is probably impossible to know unless the car is offered both with and without in an otherwise unchanged spec.

I have wondered if people/companies would start releasing modified MagneRide 'tunes' like they do for engine ECUs and even AWD controllers on some cars, so the customization aspect of the DSC system is interesting to see.

 

[Jeffro-Tull]

ferrels[/url]":24fpc7hi]Why is this news? Active dampening has been around since the 1980's. Let me guess....the author is a 20 something hipster who thinks he's made an awesome discovery or has played Project CARS twice..

I was wondering about that, and then I got to the part about this system having active valving rather than a variable viscosity hydraulic fluid. I was hoping for a comparison on the two technologies, but I guess I'll have to look elsewhere.

It's definitely cool how this system taps into CANbus and is (somewhat) universal.

 

[araemo]

Jeffro-Tull[/url]":3q09b7yg]I was wondering about that, and then I got to the part about this system having active valving rather than a variable viscosity hydraulic fluid. I was hoping for a comparison on the two technologies, but I guess I'll have to look elsewhere.

It's definitely cool how this system taps into CANbus and is (somewhat) universal.

The active valving is older than the magnetorheological systems.. and for an example of a current car using it because it's cheaper than the magnetic system: the 2015/2016 VW Golf R has an option for adjustable suspension using active valving... and I believe most modern 'passive' shocks actually use 'variable viscosity' fluids - specifically, shear-thickening fluids, as that is how they react differently to fast bumps than slow bumps. The magnetorheological systems use iron particles to adjust the shear prior to compression, rather than having it be a passive effect of the fluid passing through the valve alone. (At least, this is how I understand it... I could be rather wrong.)

One comparison I see.. I believe the current-gen Magneride adjusts the magnetic field strength 1000 times per second. The hydraulic valves in the Golf R are adjusted, IIRC, about 250 times per second. So, the 100Hz system here is not adjusting as often... but a useful question for those systems that can 'adjust' 1000 times per second - are they really getting sensor data at a similar update rate, or are they basically spending 90% of their time maintaining the same setting because they don't have new sensor data yet?

 

[UncleVom]

amp88[/url]"

Talking about development this opens up a lot of historic what-ifs.

Anybody old enough to remember the Hydro-Spastic Mini and its BMC offshoots?
All it really needed was a brain like this and a few sensors and solenoids.
As it was it was unsuited for spirited driving and the system was usually removed from enthusiast cars.

How about adapting the basic concept to air suspended vehicles, even trucks and trailers?

 

[araemo]

UncleVom[/url]":b57nkh98]How about adapting the basic concept to air suspended vehicles, even trucks and trailers?

A couple of the air suspension aftermarket companies are actually going this route already.. and some companies like Audi have spent a fair amount of time on their own air suspension setups with similar ideas. I think Audi has mostly moved away from it in their current cars though. Just a few months ago I saw a video from I think AccuAir talking up their ability to build air suspension that actually handles better (from a performance standpoint) than a normal shock/spring system, instead of worse.

 

[Janeazy]

I'm still curious to see/feel/drive VW's adaptive chassis control (http://en.volkswagen.com/en/innovation- ... y/dcc.html). Probably not as advanced as this one, but still sounds like it really changes the car's behavior when turned on

 

[iampanis]

Last year at a system design competition I was in there was an active suspension project that used a laser rangefinder to detect road height variations before hitting them so it could react faster. Keep in mind this was an undergraduate engineering student project affixed to a go kart rather than an actual car, so nothing remotely close to a production design. It seemed like a neat idea and supposedly worked quite well (never saw a live demo though) but it also seems like it would never be reliable enough to be practical just due to things like the sensor getting knocked out of alignment, getting dirty, etc.

 

[Dr Gitlin]

Solidstate89[/url]":2f5sck9y]McLaren's hydraulic suspension trickery is such that their super cars (P1, MP4-12C, 650S) don't even have anti-sway bars, instead relying entirely on the hydraulic system to not only control the suspension, but the stiffness as well.

Yup, Levitas' system does the same, but instead of interconnecting the front and back (as McLaren do, although not on the new 570 and 540 as it happens), it's all done electronically.

 

[slugabed]

So $1200 for the controller, fair enough. How much for the shocks, reservoirs, plumbing and mounts?

 

[Dr Gitlin]

Dr Gitlin[/url]":zb15dcxc]

Solidstate89[/url]":zb15dcxc]McLaren's hydraulic suspension trickery is such that their super cars (P1, MP4-12C, 650S) don't even have anti-sway bars, instead relying entirely on the hydraulic system to not only control the suspension, but the stiffness as well.

Yup, Levitas' system does the same, but instead of interconnecting the front and back (as McLaren do, although not on the new 570 and 540 as it happens), it's all done electronically.

ferrels[/url]":zb15dcxc]Why is this news? Active dampening has been around since the 1980's. Let me guess....the author is a 20 something hipster who thinks he's made an awesome discovery or has played Project CARS twice..

If only you'd read the article you'd know. By your post, we can tell you didn't even make it as far as the second paragraph.

Jimmy McNulty[/url]":zb15dcxc]How is this better than MagneRide which use a ferro-magnetic fluid and electro-magnets instead of hydraulic pumps? MagneRide is 4th gen and is available from the factory in a variety of cars from chevy, audi, ferrari and land rover.

Magnetorheological fluid can suffer from hysteresis (lag, basically). Levitas also told me that those systems aren't as fast to reach as tractive's conventional valved dampers.

 

[moridinga]

How does 100Hz translate to updating every 6ms? That should either be 166Hz or 10ms. The math is screwy somewhere.

 

[Solidstate89]

Dr Gitlin[/url]":2ttx2u72]

Solidstate89[/url]":2ttx2u72]McLaren's hydraulic suspension trickery is such that their super cars (P1, MP4-12C, 650S) don't even have anti-sway bars, instead relying entirely on the hydraulic system to not only control the suspension, but the stiffness as well.

Yup, Levitas' system does the same, but instead of interconnecting the front and back (as McLaren do, although not on the new 570 and 540 as it happens), it's all done electronically.

ferrels[/url]":2ttx2u72]Why is this news? Active dampening has been around since the 1980's. Let me guess....the author is a 20 something hipster who thinks he's made an awesome discovery or has played Project CARS twice..

If only you'd read the article you'd know. By your post, we can tell you didn't even make it as far as the second paragraph.

Jimmy McNulty[/url]":2ttx2u72]How is this better than MagneRide which use a ferro-magnetic fluid and electro-magnets instead of hydraulic pumps? MagneRide is 4th gen and is available from the factory in a variety of cars from chevy, audi, ferrari and land rover.

Magnetorheological fluid can suffer from hysteresis (lag, basically). Levitas also told me that those systems aren't as fast to reach as tractive's conventional valved dampers.

Does he actually have proof of that? Because let's face it, it's in his best financial interest to say that. This would be the first time I've heard of any conventional adjustable shock system actually working faster than Magnetorheological dampers.

 

[Janeazy]

Solidstate89[/url]":3k1lne33]
Does he actually have proof of that? Because let's face it, it's in his best financial interest to say that. This would be the first time I've heard of any conventional adjustable shock system actually working faster than Magnetorheological dampers.

Sounds like we need a Ron Amadeo-style comparison review of the two suspension systems!

 

[ferzerp]

This article reads far too much like a "sponsored post". Especially with the glaring omission of the superior magnetorheological damper technology available (which was also on the vette they reviewed earlier in the year despite the false claim in this article of a different damper technogy).

 

[Jason Honingford]

I love how you risk people's lives to test your car.

 

[superchkn]

araemo[/url]":1rtwfhhz]
<snip>... and I believe most modern 'passive' shocks actually use 'variable viscosity' fluids - specifically, shear-thickening fluids, as that is how they react differently to fast bumps than slow bumps.

They actually have different mechanical circuits for high and low speed dampening. Certainly shock oil can effectively behave that way when used in something like an old dampening rod fork in a motorcycle due to its relatively tiny orifice. One of the ways is described on page two in this Penske shock manual:

Spoiler

In the state of low shaft velocities (i.e. corner entry, exit, and power down), oil is
displaced within the damper in direct proportion to the volume of the shaft
entering the body. The displaced fluid passes through the compression adjuster
where it is metered through a fixed, low speed bleed orifice. Due to the small
diameter of this orifice and the viscosity of the damper fluid, a pressure loss
occurs across the orifice. This loss of pressure is a loss of energy in the fluid
due to friction and the subsequent opposing damping force is generated.
As the shaft velocities increase, the same amount of fluid must pass through the
low speed bleed orifice, but at a much higher rate. The viscosity of the fluid
causes a greater resistance to flow at the orifice entrance which in turn
produces a large internal force on the CD housing. The other major internal
components, namely the piston and shim cage, are designed to handle this
extra force by allowing the shims to “blow off” proportionally to the extra force
generated, much like a coil spring compresses proportionally to the axial load
applied. With this arrangement, the low speed bleed orifice still meters fluid
during high speed shaft movements, but the extra forces generated are handled
with the shims which have less resistance to flow at higher velocities. They are
designed to virtually bypass the low speed orifice and form a new fluid circuit.
The force at which this occurs can be varied by turning the compression
adjuster in or out, which preloads the shims. Therefore, as the preload on the
shims increases, the static force required for them to activate is increased as
well. The name designation for the parts also clue one in to their purpose, with
the low speed bleed orifice handling low velocity bleed flows and the piston/
shim arrangement handling high velocity flows. This principle originated in the
main shaft piston/shim arrangement and follows similar behavior.

 

[ausername]

How is this the future when active damping, i.e. an adaptive suspension, have been available for decades? Even fully active suspensions have been around for decades https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Ac ... Suspension

 

[Penforhire]

I love this stuff.

Curious about the choice of CAN bus though. I'm no electrical engineer but I've read CAN uses data packets, not a continuous stream. That 1 MBPS (CAN max data rate) has to be considered much slower than you'd expect from 1 MBPS. If I understand what I've read correctly, we're talking around 1.2 milliseconds minimum time between packets of 8 bytes (11 bits, or even more, consumed with header info), actual rate dependent on data compression - how many consecutive zeros or ones in the data).

1.2 ms sounds plenty fast since this suspension system is responding in 6 ms intervals. But it isn't enough for everything in a car. I happen to know manufacturers often want data from steering sensors in 1 ms intervals. That want that frequency of data to detect errors reliably, to shut a faulting system down for safety.

 

[joetf]

iampanis[/url]":2a2m5d6a]Last year at a system design competition I was in there was an active suspension project that used a laser rangefinder to detect road height variations before hitting them so it could react faster. Keep in mind this was an undergraduate engineering student project affixed to a go kart rather than an actual car, so nothing remotely close to a production design. It seemed like a neat idea and supposedly worked quite well (never saw a live demo though) but it also seems like it would never be reliable enough to be practical just due to things like the sensor getting knocked out of alignment, getting dirty, etc.

Yuuup, and Mercedes Benz uses such system in production cars for nearly 2 years now.
It's amazingly funny how US based Ars can pick technology from decade ago and run with it as if it was cutting edge.

You guys are in bloody car stone age compared to Europe

 

[metalsheep]

Janeazy[/url]":5p6d5nk6]I'm still curious to see/feel/drive VW's adaptive chassis control (http://en.volkswagen.com/en/innovation- ... y/dcc.html). Probably not as advanced as this one, but still sounds like it really changes the car's behavior when turned on

I tried their DCC system in the process of buying a new GTI, and was actually pretty underwhelmed. I preferred the traditional (and incidentally $1000 cheaper) suspension. I felt the car had too much nervous body lean when you first start steering (the feeling of soft anti roll bars). It firmed up quickly in the corner but it didn't inspire as much confidence as regular suspension.
It's probably faster on a track, but to me it didn't leave me feeling as comfortable in the car because I couldn't predict how it would act as well.

 

[Errum]

metalsheep[/url]":3bab4vov]

Janeazy[/url]":3bab4vov]I'm still curious to see/feel/drive VW's adaptive chassis control (http://en.volkswagen.com/en/innovation- ... y/dcc.html). Probably not as advanced as this one, but still sounds like it really changes the car's behavior when turned on

I tried their DCC system in the process of buying a new GTI, and was actually pretty underwhelmed. I preferred the traditional (and incidentally $1000 cheaper) suspension. I felt the car had too much nervous body lean when you first start steering (the feeling of soft anti roll bars). It firmed up quickly in the corner but it didn't inspire as much confidence as regular suspension.
It's probably faster on a track, but to me it didn't leave me feeling as comfortable in the car because I couldn't predict how it would act as well.

If so — I haven't driven a GTI with the DCC — then it's a function of how VW chose to tune that car's suspension. I own a 2015 Golf R with DCC, and it's notable for the minimal roll, dive or squat. Another feature of DCC is the ability for the driver to switch between comfort, normal and performance suspension settings. The differences between these are quite noticeable.

 

[Pyros]

Tapping into the existing CAN bus to do this seems like an unnecessarily complication. Just put an accelerometer on it to detect braking. Should probably have that anyway to figure out what is going on with roll, etc.

 

[Solidstate89]

You guys are in bloody car stone age compared to Europe

And you're grossly arrogant and misinformed. Magnetorheological dampers were invented by GM engineers who worked for Delphi, they're - at the time - wholly in-house owned development house and parts supplier.

The same magnetorheological dampers that are used in European super cars. Invented by GM's wholly owned parts division. But go on, don't let that stop you and your undue stupidity at making this a pissing contest for absolutely no reason at all.

FYI, Mercedes doesn't use a laser range finder for their S-Class "magic suspension" tech. They use stereo cameras to detect pot holes to preemptively soften the suspension before they reach it.

 

[dynamo_hum]

araemo[/url]":ks8cjmva]

tetrapyloctomy[/url]":ks8cjmva]But can it jump over obstacles in its path?

Interesting fact about that demo: The suspension movement was based on a pre-recorded movement, so basically they just had to be careful about timing and speed. It wasn't actually real-time dynamic. (Which explains how they made it look so good way back when they did that demo, without the processing power we have now.)

Actually, their active suspension uses the same real-time signal processing as their noise-cancelling headsets. Instead of generating an inverse pressure wave (to dampen sound), it modifies the suspension to absorb road irregularities (potholes, frost heaves, crumbling pavement) to cushion the ride. By the same token, it can be instructed to interpret cabin roll as 'noise' that must be compensated for.

The jump trick was to demonstrate how powerful the electromagnetic suspension elements are, since there was some doubt that they could design and build something that was powerful enough to lift the car without requiring an enormous additional power supply. Also, they were trying to show off.

It's not clear that they ever found a manufacturer who wanted to go in with them. Judging by this article, various other elements within the industry have overtaken them...too bad.

 

[gmerrick]

Dr Gitlin[/url]":1n960z1x]

Ed M.[/url]":1n960z1x]Good, when can I get it for my Mustang and how much will it cost?

About $1200, although you'd need to contact DSC Sport and see if they've got it working with Fords yet.

The 1200 was for the ECU only right? How much for the actual active suspension bits?

 

[zav]

> This Audi RS7 has ative suspension, called Dynamic Ride Control in Audi-speak. It made the five-hour drive rather effortless thanks to a good ride (OK, the mind-bending acceleration on tap from the 4L twin-turbo V8 helped a lot too).

YOU POOR BASTARD! How do you survive these assignments?

I'd demand hardship pay if I were you.

Your readers ought to hold a candlelight vigil to alleviate your suffering next time you have to go through such demanding endeavors.

Fight on, valiant soldier.