Stranger Things Season 4 (Netflix Show, so spoilers for everything released!)

[Coppercloud]

So this just came up in my feed.

https://www.cbr.com/stranger-things-max ... tflix/amp/

Tldr spoliered

Spoiler

Max is brain dead as of the end of the episode

Now this doesn't mean something can't happen with the her given Elevens powers and growth in the last season.

Alternatively they could have to learn that sometimes they have to cut their losses and sometimes they can't win everything? Ok, maybe that's a little callous as they've had a few losses. But maybe Max being brain dead but still alive does something weird with the 4th portal that allows it to open, but not be complete in some way, which they then have to accept unplugging Max before being able to deal with the giant rift at the end? That'd be heart wrenching for sure.

 

[ChaoticUnreal]

So this just came up in my feed.

https://www.cbr.com/stranger-things-max ... tflix/amp/

Tldr spoliered

Spoiler

Max is brain dead as of the end of the episode

Now this doesn't mean something can't happen with the her given Elevens powers and growth in the last season.

Alternatively they could have to learn that sometimes they have to cut their losses and sometimes they can't win everything? Ok, maybe that's a little callous as they've had a few losses. But maybe Max being brain dead but still alive does something weird with the 4th portal that allows it to open, but not be complete in some way, which they then have to accept unplugging Max before being able to deal with the giant rift at the end? That'd be heart wrenching for sure.

Yeah that was my first take on it as well. Eleven brought Max's body back but her mind had already moved on. Not everyone can be saved.

I can see it going two ways. The first like you said they need to unplug Max and fully "kill" her to get to Vecna or the second option that I can see is that Eleven needs to go into her mind and pull her back from some dark hidden corner of it (where she is still be tortured by Vecna), there is also the third option where something happens and just completely destroys the hospital she is in while she is offscreen.

Either way I can't wait to see where they take the series. I'm avoiding looking to see if Max is in the next season because I can see a few ways to take this and knowing the actress is in the series would limit some of those. (IIRC when she joined she got a great deal making her on par with the other child actors so she had to get equal screen time)

 

[Visigoth]

Despite seeing most of the flaws they didn't bother me. The one big thing I didn't like was that Vecna/One's motivations kind of suck. He's just straight up evil. Why? I don't know, something about he didn't like the order people imposed on... Something? I mean, at best (depending on how you look at it) it seems like a slightly offensive take on a kid being an antisocial kid who is on the spectrum and at worst he's just kind of a lazily written villain that you can kind of get away with because there's greater onus on validating villains than heroes or something

I'd have to rewatch it again to truly refresh my mind about One, but I could kind of see his motivation being similar to Homelander. He might not have started that way, but his childhood wasn't great but when combined with his powers basically removed any restraint he might have had. And later he's the one with the power so why should he be subservient to Brenner or the others. Then you add on the resentment that would build up after having his powers stripped by Brenner and then all the abuse heaped on him during that time it could certainly make someone decide that ending the world (or remaking it in their image) was the right thing to do.

 

[Skoop]

adding to the pile of people who seemingly can't die.

Yeah, that's a credibility problem. At least the letter jacket went to the cloud.

 

[Skoop]

Eleven brought Max's body back but her mind had already moved on. Not everyone can be saved.

Max is one of the standouts in a too-large cast. They'd be dumb to not get her back into action.

 

[CPX]

adding to the pile of people who seemingly can't die.

Yeah, that's a credibility problem. At least the letter jacket went to the cloud.

This isn't just a writing issue, though. Which one of the main cast will volunteer to depart the show for the sake of the story?

I think the big reason for Hopper still being alive is for El to have her true father figure connection when she got back. El and Joyce never demonstrate quite the same on-screen chemistry of adoptive family. Hell, S3 never really clarified why the Byers and El needed to leave for California.


IMHO, Murray should be gone from the adult cast, Jonathon from the YA cast, and it should probably be Mike from the kids. Murray is a great character but is only used to fit exactly everything Hopper and Joyce can't do themselves. Jonathon had nothing in S3 and was merely the connection point for Argyle in S4 (plus the actor let his habits get him into criminal trouble). Mike...well, at this point he is purely a nexus around which El and Will act around. He seemingly has little character and purpose of his own anymore.

 

[ChaoticUnreal]

adding to the pile of people who seemingly can't die.

Yeah, that's a credibility problem. At least the letter jacket went to the cloud.

This isn't just a writing issue, though. Which one of the main cast will volunteer to depart the show for the sake of the story?

I'm not sure what the contracts look like and if Netflix would be willing but the creators have said that Season 5 will be the last one. Could they make a deal to pay them the same even if they are killed off in the first episode of season 5 that they would have had for the whole season (I know a company spend money they don't actually need to spend wouldn't happen but)

I think the big reason for Hopper still being alive is for El to have her true father figure connection when she got back. El and Joyce never demonstrate quite the same on-screen chemistry of adoptive family. Hell, S3 never really clarified why the Byers and El needed to leave for California.

Hawkins had too much history of lose for Joyce and the rest. Jonathon could probably have stayed (through I think he is supposed to still be a minor (at least at the end of season 3)) but the rest had to go with Joyce who couldn't bear to stay in the town after losing Will, Bob and Hopper in just under 3 years.

IMHO, Murray should be gone from the adult cast, Jonathon from the YA cast, and it should probably be Mike from the kids. Murray is a great character but is only used to fit exactly everything Hopper and Joyce can't do themselves. Jonathon had nothing in S3 and was merely the connection point for Argyle in S4 (plus the actor let his habits get him into criminal trouble). Mike...well, at this point he is purely a nexus around which El and Will act around. He seemingly has little character and purpose of his own anymore.

I agree with everything besides writing out Mike. I fully agree he is mostly just a Nexus for the others to act around but as it was pointed out in this season he is the heart of the kids. Losing him would just be a massive blow to all of them even if the actual character doesn't really do much. If they kill off Mike it would only make sense to do it so Eleven can go (I'm sorry for the pun) to Eleven with her powers fueled by the anger of losing him.

 

[Skoop]

I want to see more of Robin and Erica.

I am also leaning toward offing Mike or reducing his presence. In S4, he showed so much annoying indecision and incapability of expressing himself toward Eleven, it was painful. Like he never got out of 6th grade.

I actually think that Jonathan was leveling up toward the end, and could be a leader. His heart-to-heart with Will was well done and should give Will an opening to come out and grow up a little himself.

 

[JiveTurkeyJerky]

Yeah, I say sacrifice the Heart :devious:

He's very annoying. Honestly, I just hope Will, Dusty, Steve & Robin make it. Don't care if the rest do. Well, I hope Argyle makes it too. The rest can give their lives to stopping Vecna.

 

[Skoop]

I think Argyle is gone. Next season should be centered in Hawkins and Argyle is just too California. Can't see him moving there just to pal with Jonathan.

 

[JiveTurkeyJerky]

Yeah, but I enjoyed his injection of levity :high:

Season 5 is going to be heavy, so I vote for some lighter Argyle scenes. He can be home base communicator or something. Pair him up with Dusty's lady..

 

[Coppercloud]

I can see it going two ways. The first like you said they need to unplug Max and fully "kill" her to get to Vecna or the second option that I can see is that Eleven needs to go into her mind and pull her back from some dark hidden corner of it (where she is still be tortured by Vecna), there is also the third option where something happens and just completely destroys the hospital she is in while she is offscreen.

I actually kind of like this second option. There's talk about how Vecna "absorbs" the power or something from his victims. So maybe Max's mind is trapped in his mind or something like that and El has to help her die properly ("go to the light") or something. This would solve lots of problems about how bringing her back to life is just cheap plot armor, as well as keeping her in the cast while she's in a coma, and can easily be a good plot point.

Despite seeing most of the flaws they didn't bother me. The one big thing I didn't like was that Vecna/One's motivations kind of suck. He's just straight up evil. Why? I don't know, something about he didn't like the order people imposed on... Something? I mean, at best (depending on how you look at it) it seems like a slightly offensive take on a kid being an antisocial kid who is on the spectrum and at worst he's just kind of a lazily written villain that you can kind of get away with because there's greater onus on validating villains than heroes or something

I'd have to rewatch it again to truly refresh my mind about One, but I could kind of see his motivation being similar to Homelander. He might not have started that way, but his childhood wasn't great but when combined with his powers basically removed any restraint he might have had. And later he's the one with the power so why should he be subservient to Brenner or the others. Then you add on the resentment that would build up after having his powers stripped by Brenner and then all the abuse heaped on him during that time it could certainly make someone decide that ending the world (or remaking it in their image) was the right thing to do.

I suppose being born with vastly greater power than your parents and knowing that in a not-fully-developed-yet state of childhood could give one a god complex and create a villain because you don't feel subject to other people's morals or something, but any way you slice it the show didn't really explore any good motivations for his first flip to Evil. Something about how he had powers and his mom wanted him to go to a doctor and he didn't want to so he just got murdery on his family? Seems a little lazy.

I'm fine with Argyle having a very limited role for comedic relief I suppose. He's better than Jar Jar Binks I guess. But I definitely don't want to see a ton of him.

 

[CPX]

Despite seeing most of the flaws they didn't bother me. The one big thing I didn't like was that Vecna/One's motivations kind of suck. He's just straight up evil. Why? I don't know, something about he didn't like the order people imposed on... Something? I mean, at best (depending on how you look at it) it seems like a slightly offensive take on a kid being an antisocial kid who is on the spectrum and at worst he's just kind of a lazily written villain that you can kind of get away with because there's greater onus on validating villains than heroes or something

I'd have to rewatch it again to truly refresh my mind about One, but I could kind of see his motivation being similar to Homelander. He might not have started that way, but his childhood wasn't great but when combined with his powers basically removed any restraint he might have had. And later he's the one with the power so why should he be subservient to Brenner or the others. Then you add on the resentment that would build up after having his powers stripped by Brenner and then all the abuse heaped on him during that time it could certainly make someone decide that ending the world (or remaking it in their image) was the right thing to do.

Hard disagree on sharing motivation w/Homelander. Vecna despised his parents through and through. He murdered one and wanted to kill the other. Homelander craves a family he never had growing up.

Edit- Vecna desires to destroy all humans, not just humans less powerful than himself. He only tolerates El because he thinks she might help him. But he slaughters everyone he can in 1979, except maybe he spared Brenner for some reason of torture later.

 

[Bagheera]

Adding my thoughts after finishing the season:

How did Dr. Brenner survive? I rewatched the scene in season 1 where he dies. In seasons 2 and 3, he only appeared in flashbacks. So how did he just appear in the modern day in season 4?

Will is gay. That's handled appropriately given the time period. It seemed obvious to me that Will is gay and in love with Mike. I don't know why there was any question about it. I also think it was handled in a realistic manner for the 1980's. See how cautious Robin was with her sexuality? Then, as now, lesbian women were (slightly) more acceptable than gay men. If Will had just come out of the closet, it wouldn't have been realistic for that time period.

The "Upside Down" dimension was a wasteland before Henry arrived. There's a 'blink and you miss it' moment in the last episode. As Henry is walking through the dimension, a Demogorgon walks past him, ignoring him. The creatures of the upside down aren't fierce beasts. They're feral, starving creatures. Henry not only brought the Upside Down to our world. He also transformed the Upside Down's inhabitants into monsters.

What makes Henry so special? My guess is that Brenner made him stronger. There are probably thousands of children like Henry and Eleven that have latent psychic powers. But only a few were weaponized by Dr. Brennan. The kids are like mutants, and Brennan is like Professor X.

I really want to see Eight return. I really liked her subplot in season 2. I think most people hated it. But I liked seeing the vengeful killer that Eleven might have become.

 

[Bagheera]

I suppose being born with vastly greater power than your parents and knowing that in a not-fully-developed-yet state of childhood could give one a god complex and create a villain because you don't feel subject to other people's morals or something, but any way you slice it the show didn't really explore any good motivations for his first flip to Evil. Something about how he had powers and his mom wanted him to go to a doctor and he didn't want to so he just got murdery on his family? Seems a little lazy.

He was just a straight up psychopath. They have no empathy, incapable of imagining other people's pain. Those people often view emotions as weak, and they believe themselves to be superior due to their emotional unattachments.

The bad thing is that some people are simply born that way. There are kids who exhibit psychopathic behaviors as soon as they can talk.

 

[MadMac_5]

My spouse and I finally finished watching the season last night after spreading it out over a couple of weeks. Some thoughts:

• It was good that everyone got equal time, but holy CRAP did this season take forever to get where it was going. Similarly, there were a lot of scenes that seemed to exist to explain what happened to a character and how they formed for the benefit of people who aren't good at making connections. There were also quite a few times in the last few episodes where things would start to get going in one of the branches of the plot, only to stop DEAD to cut back to Russia and let everything catch up. The phrase that immediately came to mind was:
  
  
  
  
• We definitely could have used a Sam Raimi-esque head explosion for the big bad at the end. I'm sure they'll want to bring One back, but come on... can't our characters have at least a LITTLE catharsis?
  
• Brenner has a bad habit of not dying. If he comes back in Season 5, my reaction is going to be along the lines of "Oh, COME ON!!" He had his arc, Eleven had hers with him, and now he can stay dead.
  
• The Russia bits were enjoyable, but they often slammed the brakes on the story as I mentioned before. If I were in charge of editing this series down for a second cut, I'd scrap most of the scene where Yuri introduces his helicopter and cut down the bits with him sandbagging the repairs. I know that I've criticized the Star Wars sequels and some other modern movies for not giving characters time to interact with each other as they rush from one set-piece to another, but this swung a bit too far in the other direction.
  
• The first few episodes reminded me of why I didn't get into tabletop gaming when I was a kid in the 90s. I grew up in an even smaller town than Hawkins, and the people who were into DnD, Warhammer, and the like were people I didn't feel very comfortable being around. Hanging out with someone who behaved like Eddie at school would have been a VERY big barrier to entry for me.

We still liked the season overall, but at the same time we struggled with the fact that we could spend an hour and a half watching an episode of Stranger Things or we could spend that time watching an episode of Star Trek: Strange New Worlds and feel more satisfied at the end (and have more time for other things). The prospect of Season 5's episodes being even longer is pretty daunting!