A troubled moon program is at the heart of tension between NASA's head and the Obama transition team.<BR><BR>Read More
Star wars between NASA head and Obama transition team
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This guy is either an Ayn Rand character come to life to save us all or just another Bush crony living his dream at our expense.
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If his attitude is actually that he doesn't have to listen to anybody else because of his degrees then, frankly, he needs to go.<BR><BR>I have dealt with and been around too many people like that, and quit frankly they seldom are the smartest people in the room. They are also seldom the most useful.<BR><BR>As a person who holds multiple advanced degrees I can tell you right now that they are not all that many people believe them to be. The guys who have been in the trenches for decades always have useful insight to shine on nearly any project I have worked on, and to dismiss that input because they don't have my degrees is the pinnacle of egotism and stupidity.<BR><BR>Frankly, the fact that he doesn't want anyone else looking under the hood tells me that he has something to hide, and someone needs to look under the hood.
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"Ye cannae evaluate my space program! Ye dinnae have the power! "<BR><BR>WTF is that supposed to mean? I guess the author is more hip than I am. Can someone explain as the autrhor thinks everyone understands the trash floating around in thier head.<BR><BR>"Griffin, who holds more degrees than the average supermarket deodorant aisle" <BR><BR>Another one? I don't get this one either. Really poorly written, can't even get an analog to work.
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Blitzenn:<BR>"Ye cannae evaluate my space program! Ye dinnae have the power! "<BR><BR>WTF is that supposed to mean? I guess the author is more hip than I am. Can someone explain as the autrhor thinks everyone understands the trash floating around in thier head. </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Picture Scotty saying it and it'll make more sense.
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jus10:<BR>Picture Scotty saying it and it'll make more sense. </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>What is a cannae? (canny?) I really am not picking up on the intent of the sentence at all. It makes no sense.
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"She's givin' it she got Cap'tn. Any mo' an' she's gonna blow!"<BR><BR>I guess that some of that trash is floating in my head also.
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Hack-n-Slash
Ars Legatus Legionis
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">"Griffin, who holds more degrees than the average supermarket deodorant aisle" <BR><BR>Another one? I don't get this one either. Really poorly written, can't even get an analog to work. </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>http://www.degreedeodorant.com/Home.aspx
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Blitzenn, in English:<BR><BR>"You cannot evaluate my space program. You do not have the power!"<BR><BR>The "More degrees than a supermarket deodorant aisle" refers to Degree Antiperspirant; presumably, they product would be bounteous on any well stocked supermarket aisle; therefore, the implication is that the person in question has an extremely large and impressive collection of diplomas and awards that have been conferred on him for professional reasons.
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The guy looks like a douche. Reason enough to fire him...<BR><BR>"Hey babe. Come here often?"
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<i>"Griffin, who holds more degrees than the average supermarket deodorant aisle, is accustomed to being the smartest guy in any given room."</i><br><br>*sigh* The beginning of paid product placement at Ars? -- View image here: http://episteme.meincmagazine.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif --
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Flawed:<BR>The guy looks like a douche. </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>I cannot see how he looks like a shower.<BR><BR>But he'll probably look a lot more natural without the smile. It wouldn't even surprise me if the smile was pasted on in Photoshop.
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<blockquote class="ip-ubbcode-quote">
<div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div>
<div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Blitzenn:<br>"Ye cannae evaluate my space program! Ye dinnae have the power! "<br><br>WTF is that supposed to mean? I guess the author is more hip than I am. Can someone explain as the autrhor thinks everyone understands the trash floating around in thier head.<br><br>"Griffin, who holds more degrees than the average supermarket deodorant aisle" <br><br>Another one? I don't get this one either. Really poorly written, can't even get an analog to work. </div>
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<br><br>Hey, both lines made me smirk -- View image here: http://episteme.meincmagazine.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif -- Not that I wouldn't read anything Ars posts about NASA, but those definitely added some character. If you don't get the references, it doesn't detract from any factual information, so I don't see the point of the complaint.
<div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div>
<div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Blitzenn:<br>"Ye cannae evaluate my space program! Ye dinnae have the power! "<br><br>WTF is that supposed to mean? I guess the author is more hip than I am. Can someone explain as the autrhor thinks everyone understands the trash floating around in thier head.<br><br>"Griffin, who holds more degrees than the average supermarket deodorant aisle" <br><br>Another one? I don't get this one either. Really poorly written, can't even get an analog to work. </div>
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<br><br>Hey, both lines made me smirk -- View image here: http://episteme.meincmagazine.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif -- Not that I wouldn't read anything Ars posts about NASA, but those definitely added some character. If you don't get the references, it doesn't detract from any factual information, so I don't see the point of the complaint.
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I think the real issue is not the weird Scotty reference or deodorant metaphor, but the future of the space program. Many people have correctly pointed out it's massive expense in the face of serious issues closer to home, and few politicians would lose much by dramatically cutting NASA's budget and redirecting it to something like health care or social security.<BR><BR>That said, people need to make the case that space exploration is among the <I>most</I> important things the government does. Not only does it define the future of humanity as a whole. Maybe we should just send a copy of Carl Sagan's <I>Cosmos</I> to the transition team. Sagan makes the importance of space exploration critically clear and it's a shame we don't have an advocate like him fighting for the space program now.
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by terkans:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Flawed:<BR>The guy looks like a douche. </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>I cannot see how he looks like a shower. </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douche#Slang_uses
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You people complain about the stupidest things.<br><br>"Hey, let's ignore the actual <i>content</i> of the article and dismantle the style of the article instead!" -- View image here: http://episteme.meincmagazine.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif --
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aubin Paul:<BR>Many people have correctly pointed out it's massive expense in the face of serious issues closer to home, and few politicians would lose much by dramatically cutting NASA's budget and redirecting it to something like health care or social security. </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>See, that's thing...it ISN'T a massive expense. It's just not. NASA's budget for FY 2008 was $17B. The proposed 2009 budget is $20B. Social Security for 2007 was $581B, and Medicare/Medicaid was $561B (source). $20B one way or another into either of those massive sinkholes isn't even noise. It wouldn't even register.<BR><BR>NASA does all of the things it does with a pathetically tiny amount of money. Honestly, the .gov could *double* NASA's budget, and it would *still* be a noise-level expense.
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Blitzenn:<BR>"Ye cannae evaluate my space program! Ye dinnae have the power! "<BR><BR>WTF is that supposed to mean? I guess the author is more hip than I am. Can someone explain as the autrhor thinks everyone understands the trash floating around in thier head.<BR><BR>"Griffin, who holds more degrees than the average supermarket deodorant aisle" <BR><BR>Another one? I don't get this one either. Really poorly written, can't even get an analog to work. </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Just because you don't get the cultural references in an article, doesn't mean that it was poorly written...it just means that you don't get the cultural references...A Star Trek reference is something that most people reading Ars would get, and the other quote is a play on words.<BR><BR>Don't be bitter because you don't get it.<BR><BR>OT: I agree with Pokrface, NASA's budget is minuscule compared to other government programs.<BR><BR>And yes, Griffin needs to be gone, thinking that you should not be questioned, and should be trusted that everything you say should be taken as gospel and not checked upon is trouble waiting to happen.
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Nae = Scots dialect for "not". I.e. "She's nae more than a wee bairn."<BR>Some Americans are truly lost in space - and on the rest of earth. Reminds me of the story one guy told about his visit to England - there's a crowd standing around in the street, so he asks what's happened. Someone says "fallah fallah fallorree." He doesn't understand, asks someone else, get's the same answer. He said "It took me several minutes to find out that some guy had fallen out of a truck." <BR><BR>Degree = (deoderant) that's what you get for buying a DVR and fast-forwarding through the commercials.<BR><BR>First, if this is the sort of arrogance that this bozo - sorry, DOCTOR Bozo - displays with his subordinates, I think I'd like to look under the hood too - he may think things are fine, but guaranteed an aggresive CEO never gets told the bad news as long as it can possibly hold off. So, he's making decisions on incomplete and optimistic information. I wonder if he's the sort of guy who would expect the shuttle to launch even if it was frosty outside?<BR><BR>He wants to stage-manage all interviews with subordinates. See, he's not that stupid - he's figured out, probably by painful experience, the hard way - the way subordinates deal with that kind of boss is by spilling the beans to someone higher, preferrably in a setting where he can't figure out which one did it.
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Follow-up, from space.com. Calls the blogger who posted the piece a flat-out liar and says there are no arguments and no pushback to the transition team.
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The reason you fund a space program is to create an "Amercian" high tech scientific community. It gives the nation a goal that it is trying to attain. A switch away from Oil will give the scientific community focus for the next 20 years. A similar focus on a space program to get a man on Mars would do the same. This man seems to stand in the way of that, and that's not good for America and it's aspirations in space.
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Heh, maybe there is another side to the story..... but then again this is Ars so even if there was, it wouldn't be posted here.
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Right now - he does not answer to Obama or Obama's Administration_ Subsequently his transition team also has no power to do anything_ All tey can do is ask for cooperation_ But if they are not authorized to enter restricted areas of NASA or "peek under the hood" - then Griffin has every right to refuse them - as there may be sensitive materiél _<BR><BR>In any regard - Obama has not taken office yet and can't do anything_<BR><BR>Obama has no power or control until the 20th of January_ Michael Griffin does answer to Bush - so he may be following policy set forth by Bush
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Just from the ARS article along it sounds like he's sensitve to the fact that he's going to be replaced, he sounds angry. I think the Obama team kinda started out wrong; they started out indicating or infering people would be replaced. I'm sure these decisions came after examination of the positions and people in them, but its been generally a bad sign that the Obama team shows up as it so far means someones going to lose their job. Although he may not be the desired person for the job maybe the guy is just angry at what might appear to be a wholesale replacement by devaluating a persons worth to put an "Omaba team player" in place.<BR><BR>Its also possible the sources for the article weren't completly accurate?
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Ok, well, if $20 Billion isn't that much, why are people so exercised about giving $15B to detroit? Ok, that's a loaded question, but the point still stands $20B is still $20B.<BR><BR>As far as promoting technological innovation do you really think the private sector couldn't have done it faster, cheaper, and better? Please. NASA is a make work program for people with phDs.
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Blitzenn:<BR>"Ye cannae evaluate my space program! Ye dinnae have the power! "<BR><BR>WTF is that supposed to mean? I guess the author is more hip than I am. Can someone explain as the autrhor thinks everyone understands the trash floating around in thier head.<BR><BR>"Griffin, who holds more degrees than the average supermarket deodorant aisle" <BR><BR>Another one? I don't get this one either. Really poorly written, can't even get an analog to work. </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Blitzenn - It Is A Star Trek Reference!
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> ...Ares beat out some 30,000 alternative proposals. "By coincidence," says Cowing, "the design that was picked was the one [Griffin] drew on the back of an envelope the day he showed up." </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>That is disturbing if true, and a clear indication that this whole program has no substance. It looks like it will be abandoned soon enough.<BR><BR>There is a wonderful opportunity for other countries to push ahead with their space programs between 2010 and 2014 when the current shuttles are supposed to be retired and replaced with 'Orion'.
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On topic - removal of such an ass from a group like NASA is a necessity.<BR><BR>Off topic - this discussion thread is an epic fail regarding pop culture. Except for the people needing to explain things.
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fferitt25:<BR>Right now - he does not answer to Obama or Obama's Administration_ Subsequently his transition team also has no power to do anything_ All tey can do is ask for cooperation_ But if they are not authorized to enter restricted areas of NASA or "peek under the hood" - then Griffin has every right to refuse them - as there may be sensitive materiél _<BR><BR>In any regard - Obama has not taken office yet and can't do anything_<BR><BR>Obama has no power or control until the 20th of January_ Michael Griffin does answer to Bush - so he may be following policy set forth by Bush </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>From the front-page article:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"><BR>The White House has directed federal agencies to give the president-elect's representatives an all-access pass, [. . . ] </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That sounds like Obama's people absolutely are supposed to have access. The current president authorized it.<BR><BR>Obviously, information restricted to people with clearances will be protected, but that's quite doable within the framework of making an effective transition to a new administration. That, and the higher-ups on the transition team almost certainly have (at least provisionally) the necessary clearances already.<BR><BR>Oh, yea, and you meant "sensitive material". "Materiél" means war supplies.<BR><BR>Phil<BR><BR>Edit: I'm sorry to see that the article has been edited to remove the original degree joke. I see no need to make the front-page humor more accessible. [insert elitist swipe at those who don't get it here].
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by divisionbyzero:<BR>Ok, well, if $20 Billion isn't that much, why are people so exercised about giving $15B to detroit? Ok, that's a loaded question, but the point still stands $20B is still $20B. </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>It's one thing to fund a large federal agency with $20B and see them use it to launch spacecraft, put people in orbit, and land and control probes on other planets. It's another thing to give $20B to a private industry that's dug itself into a hole through bad management, poor labor decisions, and shoddy products.<BR><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">NASA is a make work program for people with phDs. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>If it's a make-work program for anyone, it's aerospace companies, not PhDs. The agency sets a direction and then contracts out work. NASA isn't in the business of designing spacecraft or rockets--that's Lockheed, Boeing, Grumman, Raytheon, Rocketdyne, and all the thousands of other aerospace companies that employ millions who are doing the work. Private industry has been a part of the space program since the beginning.
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The Orlando Sentinal and Keith Cowling, such balanced sources for Ars to go to for an article about NASA.<BR><BR>None of the Sentinals "numerous sources" are named and they have a history of being anti-VSE since the beginning.<BR><BR>Cowling does nothing but sit around and bitch all day. No matter what NASA does, it's not good enough for him. <BR><BR>Try adding some real sources next time. Thanks.
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I dislike the direction NASA is taking with their plan to the moon and mars. Scrapping the shuttle and returning to previous tech really does not enthuse me with any sense of innovation.<BR><BR>Maybe Griffin wanted to return to designs that modeled the toys he played with as a kid, but it is all kinds of lame these days.
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I think the upheaval that happens at NASA every time we have a change in government doesn't help the program. "Cut NASA!" "Fund NASA!" Make up your minds already.<br>(I'm in the "Fund NASA!" group myself.)<br><br>OT: Happysin said sarcastically, "Hey, let's ignore the actual content of the article and dismantle the style of the article instead!" <br>The "style" is exactly why I stopped watching Diggnation. -- View image here: http://episteme.meincmagazine.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif -- <br>-Carrie
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> A troubled moon program is at the heart of tension between NASA's head and the Obama transition team. </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>That's no moon program...
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lyme:<BR>I dislike the direction NASA is taking with their plan to the moon and mars. Scrapping the shuttle and returning to previous tech really does not enthuse me with any sense of innovation.<BR><BR>Maybe Griffin wanted to return to designs that modeled the toys he played with as a kid, but it is all kinds of lame these days. </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Frankly, the shuttle is a bad design and we should never have stopped using capsules. They're less expensive, more capable, and they sit on top of the launch vehicle where God intended them to be, rather than slung on the side directly in the path of falling ice and foam. We sacrificed a decade of heavy-lift competency and knowledge when we abandoned the Saturn program and shifted over to using the STS instead; Saturn's cargo capacity was so far beyond the shuttle's that a comparison is almost laughable. Even if Ares I is an abortion of a design, Ares V is an absolute jewel and a step in the correct direction--it's a giant rocket that can lift almost eight times as much as the shuttle per launch (188,000 kg to LEO, versus 24,400).<BR><BR>The shuttle is a giant flying compromise. It's a bad re-entry vehicle because plane-shaped objects collect and shed heat during re-entry a hell of a lot less optimally than do capsules (which also have the bonus of being self-righting, instead of having to be carefully balanced). To make the shuttle a better re-entry vehicle that doesn't explode in a fiery ball of plasma, it was necessary to give it a huge giant honking nose and big fat round leading edges--changes that make it about as aerodynamic as a falling brick with stubby wings. Even ignoring the fact that the heat tile system is vulnerable during launch to debris, dealing with the tiles during the between-mission refits is a maintenance nightmare; the system should never have been considered in the first place. Ablative phenolic heat shields are inexpensive, safe, easy, and have a proven track record, which is why Orion has them.<BR><BR>Shifting to capsules is not a step back--the shuttle itself was a LEAP backward and to the side, down an avenue we never should have gone in the first place. Orion puts us back on track to have a manned space program capable of going places and doing things, rather than endlessly pissing around in low earth orbit growing tomatoes and waving to 3rd graders.
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Blitzenn:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jus10:<BR>Picture Scotty saying it and it'll make more sense. </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>What is a cannae? (canny?) I really am not picking up on the intent of the sentence at all. It makes no sense. </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>If I were still in my twenties, I would attempt to school you and probably dis you for acting all complain-y about the gaps in your pop cultural knowledge. But instead I'm just going to sit here and feel old.
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Ok, Julian. Your first mistake was using the Sentinel as your primary source for anything NASA, and specifically Ares, related. Your second mistake was going to NASA Watch for commentary. The Sentinel is so anti-Ares and VSE in general it's ridiculous, and NASA Watch isn't any better. Next time you need some space industry insight, hit up Chris Bergin at nasaspaceflight.com, he's much more respected and middle of the road.
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<blockquote class="ip-ubbcode-quote">
<div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div>
<div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">where God intended them to be, rather than slung on the side directly in the path of falling ice and foam. </div>
</blockquote>
<br><br>(j/k hat on) -- View image here: http://episteme.meincmagazine.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif -- wow, religion did tell us how spaceflight works! I wish I studied theology to figure out about the falling ice and foam (j/k hat off). The ice and foam issue should have been found in testing, but were pretty much unknowns until it happened, i.e. it <i>was not obvious as most would think</i>.<br><br>I see this situation has nothing to do with NASA's 'mission', we will still goto Mars and return to the moon someday, just not via Bush's execution style. What I'm seeing is typical NASA BS about power struggles--Griffin knows he's going to get pushed out, the transition team (and the media) want to make Obama look like Kennedy, and that's it, they don't need a big-picture guy in NASA, they need [another] academic expert to solve problems/execute while Obama's teams makes the big picture decisions. With all those degrees would not make him a Nobel prized physicist (well maybe...) and you all can criticize him, but it does show he would have a breath of knowledge to truly understand the big picture--which NASA did needed in the last decade. From that, what's at risk [to Griffin] is all those contractors (>25 of them) getting killed from their fat NASA contracts and employees (in the 100's) getting laid off. It's big money.
<div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div>
<div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">where God intended them to be, rather than slung on the side directly in the path of falling ice and foam. </div>
</blockquote>
<br><br>(j/k hat on) -- View image here: http://episteme.meincmagazine.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif -- wow, religion did tell us how spaceflight works! I wish I studied theology to figure out about the falling ice and foam (j/k hat off). The ice and foam issue should have been found in testing, but were pretty much unknowns until it happened, i.e. it <i>was not obvious as most would think</i>.<br><br>I see this situation has nothing to do with NASA's 'mission', we will still goto Mars and return to the moon someday, just not via Bush's execution style. What I'm seeing is typical NASA BS about power struggles--Griffin knows he's going to get pushed out, the transition team (and the media) want to make Obama look like Kennedy, and that's it, they don't need a big-picture guy in NASA, they need [another] academic expert to solve problems/execute while Obama's teams makes the big picture decisions. With all those degrees would not make him a Nobel prized physicist (well maybe...) and you all can criticize him, but it does show he would have a breath of knowledge to truly understand the big picture--which NASA did needed in the last decade. From that, what's at risk [to Griffin] is all those contractors (>25 of them) getting killed from their fat NASA contracts and employees (in the 100's) getting laid off. It's big money.
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