Sony patent application measures load times to detect pirated games
- Thread starter JournalBot
- Start date
astarre":1iuoghic said:
Then we have to apply another "update" to the PS4 OS before we can update the game, before we can play it. So, basically, the PS3 experience but slightly worse because there would be even more patches involved.
Upvote
4
(4
/
0)
Incarnate":fcbhk28t said:
The two main groups responsible for the system being cracked had given up, until Linux was removed - which was basically Sony poking the beehive with a stick.
Upvote
5
(6
/
-1)
Upvote
6
(6
/
0)
This is so fucked up. Just when you thought they could not do worse, they manage to surprise you.
Meanwhile steam is busy improving the user-experience...
Meanwhile steam is busy improving the user-experience...
Upvote
2
(3
/
-1)
I think Sony should spend this effort making sure their next console is more marketable.
Upvote
3
(4
/
-1)
Lord Kestrel":12dvc8im said:
LOL !
There is a bad storm and my Internet is taking forever to load up.
Upvote
-1
(0
/
-1)
I see Sony is working diligently to make sure I don't ever purchase, or consider purchasing a Playstation. Keep at it fellas, you're doing a fine job!
Upvote
4
(4
/
0)
No, they said used games could play on the PS4, but they never said there wouldn't be any hoops you'd have to jump through before you can.
It's nice to hope that there will be no restrictions, but until they either come right out and say "there will be no restrictions", or until this is actually proven in the real world after the console is released, there're still plenty of reasons to be skeptical -- this patent being just one more of those reasons.
Upvote
3
(3
/
0)
Bruski":beakypwl said:
That's a good one, but I think he was referring to this one: http://i.imgur.com/GxzeV.jpg
Upvote
2
(3
/
-1)
Onerunjunior":rttx43my said:
While I get the hilarity of rejecting software because of better performance I do not get the sentiment. Cinavia is bullshit for a variety of reasons but I wouldn't actually pirate games. You only have a single console playing back the content anyway so why bother ...
And let's not forget that Sony is much much nicer then the competitors in this area.
Nintendo: Let's maximally inconvenience our biggest fans by region coding our software. Oh and while we are at it, let's tie downloaded games to consoles instead of accounts so that again our most loyal customer base is maximally inconvenienced.
On the PS3 on the other hand, games are region code free and you can take over games by entering your PSN account.
Microsoft: Concrete rumors about rejecting used games. Charging an arm and a leg for a HD enlargement. Essentially charging money for multiplayer. And until recently you even had to pay with shitty Microsoft points.
Compared to those two Sony is AN ANGEL. Just to keep things in perspective a bit.
Upvote
-2
(6
/
-8)
JPan":4131ox25 said:
This article isn't about Nintendo. Keep the console wars on gaming blogs.
Upvote
0
(5
/
-5)
I sort of wonder what kind of havoc this would play to games being ported into PSN.
Upvote
1
(1
/
0)
Dark Laser":18ub2hgx said:
More money on getting (regaining) third parties. Less money on developing DRMs that may or may not work.
Upvote
0
(0
/
0)
I would think that the very fact that they even bothered filing the patent (as you normally don't announce your anti-piracy techniques to the pirates so that they know, in advance, how to counter them), is because they're worried that someone else would file the patent and sue them over it, if they did decide to use such measures.
Sony already has a great anti-piracy method though: Blurays are really big. If a game has 50GB worth of data or more (even if it's mostly FMV and audio), I'm not all that likely to download it.
A 2nd great anti-piracy measure is just online components and DLC. If you can't play multiplayer, or get free DLC, or download game updates, (or even sign-into the PSN) on a hacked console, you're going to limit the number of people pirating your games even more (and at that point the pirates are people who'd never have bought the game in the first place, so you aren't losing any money).
Sony already has a great anti-piracy method though: Blurays are really big. If a game has 50GB worth of data or more (even if it's mostly FMV and audio), I'm not all that likely to download it.
A 2nd great anti-piracy measure is just online components and DLC. If you can't play multiplayer, or get free DLC, or download game updates, (or even sign-into the PSN) on a hacked console, you're going to limit the number of people pirating your games even more (and at that point the pirates are people who'd never have bought the game in the first place, so you aren't losing any money).
Upvote
3
(3
/
0)
Oh really...?!?!mhall1":shfia9dq said:
All PS2 games were far better than, say, Half Life 2, GTA IV, Dragon Age : Origins, Skyrim, BioShock, Mass Effect, Fallout 3, Oblivion, Deus Ex: HR, Portal...
Yeah, you got things figured out!
Upvote
1
(4
/
-3)
Synitare":139dg0mf said:
I have a funny feeling that it'll end up a bit like this......
http://theoatmeal.com/comics/game_of_thrones
Edit: It appears someone else had the same exact thought I did on that one.
In any case...... it's only a matter of time before some colossal clusterf**k erupts from this.
Upvote
1
(1
/
0)
On the Xbox 360, you have the option to install the game to the hard drive -- the console accesses the disc in the drive on startup, but then all further loads come from the hard drive. Seems like this would kill any potential support for a similar feature on the PlayStation. Or what about offering digital versions of retail games? They'd have to be able to completely turn off support for this "feature", which seems like it would completely defeat the purpose. Plus, if they ever do a hardware revision that uses a faster optical drive, they'd have to go through the entire existing library of games and update their load time tables.
This patent sounds like one of those ideas that sounded good in the boardroom, but wasn't completely thought through for implementation.
This patent sounds like one of those ideas that sounded good in the boardroom, but wasn't completely thought through for implementation.
Upvote
6
(6
/
0)
Guys.
I've scratched my discs before, and they'll often work with new massively longer load times, like in the range of an extra minute or so.
If a big scratch can add a whole minute to practically everything, won't little scratches, normally inconsequential, probably not even noticeable normally, cause those 'individual code segments' to load dramatically differently?
I don't see this working out very well for the customers
I've scratched my discs before, and they'll often work with new massively longer load times, like in the range of an extra minute or so.
If a big scratch can add a whole minute to practically everything, won't little scratches, normally inconsequential, probably not even noticeable normally, cause those 'individual code segments' to load dramatically differently?
I don't see this working out very well for the customers
Upvote
1
(1
/
0)
All of you people who are whining about this are really jumping the gun. Not all, maybe most, patents are ever implemented in a shipping product. It's far better from a business perspective to patent every idea you come up with rather than just sit on ideas without patenting them, because you never know if that patent might be worth something one day.
Upvote
-1
(0
/
-1)
JPan":13rczesi said:
Funny. Those that have installed CFW on their PS3 are not subject to Cinavia protection....
Upvote
1
(1
/
0)
All this energy they're putting into stopping piracy... If they only put half that energy into making creative, innovative content, piracy would be one of their lesser concerns.
And of course all that research will have an impact on game and prices. Remember that when they push new games to the $80 baseline.
And of course all that research will have an impact on game and prices. Remember that when they push new games to the $80 baseline.
Upvote
0
(1
/
-1)
You can patent something without using it, firstly.
You patent an idea like this because it could make your console more attractive to game publishers than the competition with an exclusive feature like this, if you had a reasonable argument that it will withstand piracy longer than the competition. Knowing how a system works isn't enough information to bypass it. It's necessary, yet not sufficient.
You can still have a system that allows for disc installs, this would be a measure against piracy with disc images from being a component. It narrows that attack vector. This isn't necessarily an indictment against slow console loading speeds. A similar approach could be implemented for hard disks and solid state drives. It has more to do with the consistency of the platform, not the slow speed. This is a technique that could be used for all games, including ones that load incredibly quickly.
If the system cares about access times down to the range of milliseconds, it could be difficult to mimic the same loading times to that extent, especially if it isn't over the entire disc, but rather measures access time to specific segments of it.
This system if implemented correctly needn't incur additional overhead and slowdown. This doesn't involve intentionally slowing down the game at all. There aren't any forced waits. It could be completely transparent to the end user.
This would survive game updates, as you would apply timing to data files off disc, not the executable. The game would be updated with the same asset timing being used. Or, for assets that do change, the build system for creating games that use this would be designed to recalculate the timing analysis with an update.
As with anything, it can be foiled, but that may not be trivial. That is the perceived approach that they want to take, provide enough hurdles to delay a pirated copy from being out day one, or week one, or month one. I think no one is so naive to think that any anti piracy scheme is invulnerable. If ever implemented, this will be mitigated eventually.
It's also probably a bad idea. It takes engineering resources to execute well, and few systems are ever executed truly well. Similar anti-piracy schemes have been done in the past, based on finding odd implementation errors with discs that don't copy (floppies and cd), so I have no doubt that this system can work. The question is how much cost it takes initially, how transparently it is handled for developers, and how much it realistically does to delay piracy, in light of the other cryptographic approaches the ps4 will undoubtedly have. But, may as well patent it before the other guy does.
You patent an idea like this because it could make your console more attractive to game publishers than the competition with an exclusive feature like this, if you had a reasonable argument that it will withstand piracy longer than the competition. Knowing how a system works isn't enough information to bypass it. It's necessary, yet not sufficient.
You can still have a system that allows for disc installs, this would be a measure against piracy with disc images from being a component. It narrows that attack vector. This isn't necessarily an indictment against slow console loading speeds. A similar approach could be implemented for hard disks and solid state drives. It has more to do with the consistency of the platform, not the slow speed. This is a technique that could be used for all games, including ones that load incredibly quickly.
If the system cares about access times down to the range of milliseconds, it could be difficult to mimic the same loading times to that extent, especially if it isn't over the entire disc, but rather measures access time to specific segments of it.
This system if implemented correctly needn't incur additional overhead and slowdown. This doesn't involve intentionally slowing down the game at all. There aren't any forced waits. It could be completely transparent to the end user.
This would survive game updates, as you would apply timing to data files off disc, not the executable. The game would be updated with the same asset timing being used. Or, for assets that do change, the build system for creating games that use this would be designed to recalculate the timing analysis with an update.
As with anything, it can be foiled, but that may not be trivial. That is the perceived approach that they want to take, provide enough hurdles to delay a pirated copy from being out day one, or week one, or month one. I think no one is so naive to think that any anti piracy scheme is invulnerable. If ever implemented, this will be mitigated eventually.
It's also probably a bad idea. It takes engineering resources to execute well, and few systems are ever executed truly well. Similar anti-piracy schemes have been done in the past, based on finding odd implementation errors with discs that don't copy (floppies and cd), so I have no doubt that this system can work. The question is how much cost it takes initially, how transparently it is handled for developers, and how much it realistically does to delay piracy, in light of the other cryptographic approaches the ps4 will undoubtedly have. But, may as well patent it before the other guy does.
Upvote
-3
(0
/
-3)
They didn't actually say that they wouldn't restrict used games. They just said the system would be capable of playing them. It very well could still demand you pay extra money to really play them.
Upvote
3
(3
/
0)
If you simply join the PC Gaming Master Race you won't have any such heartburn, as long as you get your games from Steam
Upvote
-1
(3
/
-4)
the moron that "design" this feature must same person that stated that blue ray will not be cracked in TEN years
Upvote
4
(5
/
-1)
Dear Sony,
No matter how hard you try...
"zeroes and ones aren't ever going to get harder to copy"
- Cory Doctorow
If you want to drive sales you need to concentrate on producing a really good console system with lots of high quality games. Harrasing your most loyal paying customers with silly restrictions for legitimate users will only make those users switch to competing platforms.
No matter how hard you try...
"zeroes and ones aren't ever going to get harder to copy"
- Cory Doctorow
If you want to drive sales you need to concentrate on producing a really good console system with lots of high quality games. Harrasing your most loyal paying customers with silly restrictions for legitimate users will only make those users switch to competing platforms.
Upvote
3
(4
/
-1)
I could be wrong but I think this patent should be rejected as prior art+obvious extension. Way, WAY back in the early 1980s this technology idea was applied to standard floppy disk based copy protections, where they used errors in the physical media and timed the error chirps to prove validity. It was defeatable with the Copy2PC software and hardware. It's the same basic concept, looking at data rate vice the old error rate, applied to newer media.
I don't think it's enough of a difference to be a unique invention.
I don't think it's enough of a difference to be a unique invention.
Upvote
1
(1
/
0)
Torchwood":2fvtszd9 said:
You don't seem to be satisfied with this new attempt...
No worries! More is on the way!
Upvote
0
(0
/
0)
Wow. Load times...really?
First thing I do to any game I install is figure out how to delete or bypass all intro movies. 10 years ago, I'd download cd cracks just to be able to bypass the initial cd / dvd player spin-up disc check which caused an annoying delay in getting to the game. Once I discovered virtual drive cloning, I would copy entire cd's onto my hdd, mount them from there, and it would speed up gameplay immensely.
They make these games as annoying as possible to get to, from stupid load times, to stalling you out on a "press enter to continue" screen.
I guess they absolutely don't want anyone to bypass those stupid Nvidia and other commercial intro movies companies paid money for developers to cook into their games.
Yeah... "fighting piracy"... yeah, that's the ticket. *wink*
First thing I do to any game I install is figure out how to delete or bypass all intro movies. 10 years ago, I'd download cd cracks just to be able to bypass the initial cd / dvd player spin-up disc check which caused an annoying delay in getting to the game. Once I discovered virtual drive cloning, I would copy entire cd's onto my hdd, mount them from there, and it would speed up gameplay immensely.
They make these games as annoying as possible to get to, from stupid load times, to stalling you out on a "press enter to continue" screen.
I guess they absolutely don't want anyone to bypass those stupid Nvidia and other commercial intro movies companies paid money for developers to cook into their games.
Yeah... "fighting piracy"... yeah, that's the ticket. *wink*
Upvote
2
(3
/
-1)
ryanmscott":24quubxq said:
Meh, Steam isn't great. It isn't even good. It's just an evil you have chosen to accept.
Upvote
-1
(4
/
-5)
Sony just keep giving me reasons to boycott their wares. You keep up the good fight Sony and eventually that nose will indeed come off your face.
Also, to everyone who keeps saying it's easy to bypass by artificially creating a delay - this is already addressed and defeated in the article.
Also, to everyone who keeps saying it's easy to bypass by artificially creating a delay - this is already addressed and defeated in the article.
Upvote
1
(1
/
0)
That's trivial to bypass.
I'm sleep deprived and playing Minecraft as I write this, but wouldn't a hacker just have to use a proprietary disk image format that kept the data in order with where it was on the disk, then run whole disk read benchmarks and artificially limit how fast data from the image file could be read based on where the data was on the physical disk?
In other words - data on the outer edge reads slower than data on the inner edge?
If a pirate already has access to the console's firmware to the point they're having to do sneaky crap like this to detect pirated copies rather than being able to prevent image files from being read from the disk, it's likely they can do whatever they want with the disk images.
This seems more like Sony raging and saying "No! You can load from ISOs if you want but so help us we will BAN YOUR ASS if you dare to make your cracked/duplicated game load faster than the legitimate game!"
I'm sleep deprived and playing Minecraft as I write this, but wouldn't a hacker just have to use a proprietary disk image format that kept the data in order with where it was on the disk, then run whole disk read benchmarks and artificially limit how fast data from the image file could be read based on where the data was on the physical disk?
In other words - data on the outer edge reads slower than data on the inner edge?
If a pirate already has access to the console's firmware to the point they're having to do sneaky crap like this to detect pirated copies rather than being able to prevent image files from being read from the disk, it's likely they can do whatever they want with the disk images.
This seems more like Sony raging and saying "No! You can load from ISOs if you want but so help us we will BAN YOUR ASS if you dare to make your cracked/duplicated game load faster than the legitimate game!"
Upvote
4
(5
/
-1)
Doesn't sound like an insurmountable challenge.
The same area of each disk should be read at the same time. So just create a profile of read speeds for every area of the disk. Now produce a small device to connect between a SATA drive and the PS3 connector (probably also SATA) that introduces delays based on the relative position of the disk image and your profile. Worst case, even if there was some reason why the same physical area would read at different rates, one could rip the games using the PS3 drive and log every block of data with a timestamp of how long the fetch took.
Here's hoping they give it enough leniency to prevent accidentally triggering this on legitimate customers. Also unfortunate that they are never going to be able to produce a PS4 with faster read times as a result of this.
The same area of each disk should be read at the same time. So just create a profile of read speeds for every area of the disk. Now produce a small device to connect between a SATA drive and the PS3 connector (probably also SATA) that introduces delays based on the relative position of the disk image and your profile. Worst case, even if there was some reason why the same physical area would read at different rates, one could rip the games using the PS3 drive and log every block of data with a timestamp of how long the fetch took.
Here's hoping they give it enough leniency to prevent accidentally triggering this on legitimate customers. Also unfortunate that they are never going to be able to produce a PS4 with faster read times as a result of this.
Upvote
2
(3
/
-1)
It's amazing how quickly things go from "Sony files DRM patent A" to "I'm never going to buy a Sony product because of this crap". I've seen maybe TWO comments that actually realize that this is merely a patent filing and not a confirmation of it being implemented in the PS4. C'mon, this is Ars Technica, how many times have you seen articles on patent trolls who file patents simply because they can? It's not just trolls that do this, you know; big companies do it too. Filing a patent != using the technique in a product.
Upvote
1
(2
/
-1)
I hate Sony...
EDIT: and just to humor the above comment, I hated them long before I read this.
EDIT: and just to humor the above comment, I hated them long before I read this.
Upvote
2
(3
/
-1)
How on earth are the claims about checking a serial number against a database at all novel or non-obvious.
My other thought is that the part about checking load times to detect piracy is all well and nice, but isn't the counsel smart enough to know what media it's reading off of? Why would it need load times to determine if the data is coming off a disk, shouldn't the drive address be enough? Disk 0 = dvd, if not from disk 0, then from not dvd.
My other thought is that the part about checking load times to detect piracy is all well and nice, but isn't the counsel smart enough to know what media it's reading off of? Why would it need load times to determine if the data is coming off a disk, shouldn't the drive address be enough? Disk 0 = dvd, if not from disk 0, then from not dvd.
Upvote
2
(2
/
0)
JPan":2tlgjbql said:
So I should be grateful Sony is slightly less hostile than everyone else? I should bend over and take it because it'll hurt slightly less than everyone else? Here's some info for you: I don't buy consoles anymore because of shit like this. They are the most customer hostile pieces of gaming hardware, and they're getting worse. I don't care who does what to what degree, Sony is rapidly losing a potential sale with this idiotic bullshit.
I don't care what they do, this is fucking ridiculous. They are doing a great job making me never want to own that laughably mid-range POS PC knockoff loaded down with garbage like this. Microsoft will NEVER get another console sale from me because they charge a monthly fee to make it do something besides heat my living room, and Nintendo ceased to exist after the N64 in my eyes because even though the games are very good, the hardware was 10 years behind the times 10 years ago.
TL;DR: I don't give a shit, Sony isn't getting a sale from me if they implement this idiotic bullshit (among other failures coming from Sony on a regular basis).
Just some perspective for you.
Upvote
1
(1
/
0)
wretchu":1gbg8tyz said:
That they think this way is enough for me to avoid them like the plague. Whether they actually use this is irrelevant, that they think this way shows their dumbfounding ignorance, and illogical way of thinking. Slowing loading != piracy. To use your own example.
Upvote
1
(1
/
0)
Sony's like an alcoholic who wakes up in the morning with his head in a public urinal at the beach and vows "Never again!"
Upvote
1
(1
/
0)
- Status