Robotaxis burn in Los Angeles in backlash to immigration raids

graylshaped

Ars Legatus Legionis
67,692
Subscriptor++
You can't make this government look bad enough to flip enough support to curtail their behavior. They aren't a political movement, they're a religion. A fuck load of the ardent supporters completely severed ties with their entire families to back MAGA.
I'm happy to sever more and more ties with those backing MAGA as each day passes.
 
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20 (23 / -3)
It's really interesting that ICE seems to be heavily targeting people in large cities with a voting base that tends to lean democrat and not a dense concentration of people that meet the criteria for targeting. Instead of focusing on rural areas with a voting base that tends to lean republican, and that are filled with farm workers that meet the criteria for targeting.
 
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38 (41 / -3)

lgraak

Seniorius Lurkius
30
I am all for protests in these times, but peaceful protests are the way

Yeah my dog, they don't understand peaceful. We've been peaceful for way to long. It's now time to speak their language.

"And what country can preserve it’s liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it’s natural manure. Our Convention has been too much impressed by the insurrection of Massachusetts: and in the spur of the moment they are setting up a kite to keep the hen yard in order. I hope in god this article will be rectified before the new constitution is accepted." - Thomas Jefferson
 
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ianmcf

Ars Scholae Palatinae
633
Hard to be a patriot when your military arm is dispatched to intimidate or prevent unarmed civilians exercising their constitutional rights to peaceful protest.

It. is. not. right.

Edit: spelling
The patriotic act is resistance to tyranny.

That's kinda how this whole experiment in democracy got started over here, isn't it?
 
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22 (25 / -3)

Ardrid

Ars Scholae Palatinae
737
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They started as a militia designed to follow police in their communities to bear witness and intimidate them with the threat of violence (open carry) should they think of abusing people. Then they moved on to mutual aid.
Correct. While I think militia might be an inaccurate description, the Black Panthers were focused on self defense, self determination, and community uplift. They ensured the police thought twice about brutalizing black citizens (so much so that the laws were suddenly changed with the intent of disarming them: Mulford Act signed by Reagan) and provided resources (including, but not limited to, free breakfast and lunch programs for kids) to those in the community less fortunate. All of that gets swept under the rug in our schools though, with the message simply being they were "bad" terrorists like X and not like the "good" blacks who followed MLK.
 
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Again, I have zero sympathy for the freaks that got nabbed. Its one thing to be accused, another to be long wanted repeat disgusting offenders or cartel launderers...
So you consider the accused to be guilty automatically — no trial. You are, as is the usual case, on the wrong side of history.
 
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37 (40 / -3)

cbreak

Ars Praefectus
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Some people say "Violence is never an option" but the wording of the sentiment fundamentally misstates the relationship between violence and peace.

Peaceful options will nearly always be better than violence, and everyone involved would much rather prefer peace. But the options of peace can be sabotaged, ignored, and functionally taken away from those dissatisfied with the world. The cold truth of the matter is that violence is always an option, and the best way to prevent violence is not to crush it, not to send in the national guard, but to give peace a fighting chance.

We had widescale peaceful protests of these issues, and we have seen people fighting as diligently as they can along peaceful channels. It is foolish to assume that people see these peaceful methods as their last resort when faced with existential crises.
The problem with using violence is that that's a playing field where the government is even harder to beat. Especially with a senile lunatic like trump ignoring all the laws that are supposed to bind the power of the government.

I wouldn't be too surprised if trump declares martial law to become the emperor of the US or something similarly problematic, using this as flimsy excuse. And then sending in the military to shoot protestors, the press and everyone else he doesn't like.
 
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Uncivil Servant

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Do you know what the Black Panthers actually stood for or what they actually did in/for the community? Hint: it wasn't burning down buildings or "killing pigs" like our shitty white American sanitized education system would have you believe.

WORD

My father had Panthers escort him when he was registering Black people to vote back in the 70s. They weren't violent, but they were prepared to protect him in case people did what they do to Jewish lawyers who register Black people to vote.

More importantly, though, he needed the Panthers to introduce him to community leaders, and also to vouch for him to regular people who had absolutely no reason to trust another White guy full of talk.
 
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37 (37 / 0)
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thebriguy28

Smack-Fu Master, in training
34
Have you spoken with the reporter shot with a riot control gun while he was doing his job, too?
and I said to you "show me The video of a national guard doing something different then what I said they were doing in my comment."

la police were firing rubber bullets and tear gas at protestors.
 
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-17 (7 / -24)

graylshaped

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and I said to you "show me The video of a national guard doing something different then what I said they were doing in my comment."

la police were firing rubber bullets and tear gas at protestors.
The reporter was protesting? Dude, do you hear yourself?
 
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35 (39 / -4)

cbreak

Ars Praefectus
5,922
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ICE isn't going to behave regardless, they've happily thrown flashbang grenades at completely peaceful protesters and deliberately shot a reporter with rubber bullets for standing there and reporting.

Getting ICE to behave is not a sane goal.
If the USians can keep their country together until trump's gone, maybe they can elect a government that gets rid of it ... one can home at least...
 
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11 (13 / -2)
Why are the leaders of the National Guard troops carrying out an illegal order from Trump? If the CA governor didn't sign off on the mobilization, it's an illegal order, yes?
Exactly the question I have. I wish someone would address this somewhere in the news. I don't fully understand the authority structure of the National Guard and to what extent they are controlled by the states vs the federal government.
 
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14 (15 / -1)
Marines signed up to be the first in or the last out, the sharp end of the spear. Using marines for crowd control is like driving a Ferrari to the store to get groceries.

Actually no, it's like telling your cat to drive to the store to get groceries.
Don't ever do that!

The last time I did it he came back with twelve cases of Chicken Feast in Gravy Fancy Feast, seven bags of Insane-in-the-Membrane Catnip, three laser pointers, four bags of Science Diet, a $400 self-cleaning litter box, and six boxes of Fresh Step, and fifty cans of StarKist in oil.
 
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23 (23 / 0)

Dachshund

Wise, Aged Ars Veteran
195
I am all for protests in these times, but peaceful protests are the way.

EDIT:
The civil rights movement was largely peaceful. Yes, there were instances where they were not, but let’s not let those examples outshine the unbelievable sacrifice so many folks made through peaceful protests.

MLK was strongly against violence and advocated for peaceful protests. He understood that riots would happen through rage and frustration, but he did not advocate for them.
 
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9 (11 / -2)

thebriguy28

Smack-Fu Master, in training
34
The reporter was protesting? Dude, do you hear yourself?
no I am not stating the reporter was protesting,
this is my original comment.


""the national guard at this point is only being used to protect federal employees and buildings.""

my point is the national guard is not participating in policing actions at this point. they are currently there protecting federal buildings assets and personnel.



-
 
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-17 (4 / -21)

graylshaped

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Don't ever do that!

The last time I did it he came back with twelve cases of Chicken Feast in Gravy Fancy Feast, seven bags of Insane-in-the-Membrane Catnip, three laser pointers, four bags of Science Diet, a $400 self-cleaning litter box, and six boxes of Fresh Step, and fifty cans of StarKist in oil.
Pro tip: don't give him your Grubhub credentials.
 
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DerpGentley

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Then we might as well give up now because we're not out-shooting the military. You really gotta make up your mind, either Trump is a superman with all kinds of incredible powers that there's no point in fighting because we've already lost, or Trump is just a sundowning, decrepit old man and at least some people in the military still have a sense of decency.
I don't expect anyone to out-shoot the military, but if the chain of command is politicized, and lawful orders become a grey area, bad things will surely happen. Exactly what that looks like is a real question, but a bunch of dead protesters is one real possibility. Worse still is the possibility that some troops open fire on protesters and other troops open fire on those troops (the Syrian civil war answer). Part of why this is so reckless is that it has an unbelievable number of ways it could go unexpectedly and catastrophically wrong. That doesn't mean we should abandon all hope, but if some marine's interpretation of the law of war is the only thing standing between you and a marine opening fire on the orders of his/her commander, I would not feel particularly confident about the outcome.
 
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cbreak

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It is an interesting and chilling possibility that the Waymos could have been summoned by ICE or ICE-sympathizers specifically to create that video of protesters. And then, oh golly, we'll just serve Waymo a warrant for footage that we as law enforcement could not legally create on our own, especially of people who are protesting legally.
That sounds like a braindead hypothesis. I bet there are lots of reporters with cameras around the protests that are taking footage already. At least if the police isn't shooting at them to drive them away. And I bet many of the protesters are posting videos and pictures online for everyone to see.
No additional waymo cameras needed.
 
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7 (10 / -3)
If they have been served a warrant, they don't really have a choice, do they? Ideally the data would be end-to-end encrypted and inaccessible, but then it'd be useless to Waymo for safety analysis, and I assume they need to keep it for X time length for regulatory reasons. Unless they're actively providing the data without requiring a warrant, I don't think they're doing anything inherently wrong.

I don't think that mosquitos are doing anything inherently ethically wrong, but this doesn't stop me from crushing them.
 
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-6 (1 / -7)

graylshaped

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no I am not stating the reporter was protesting,
this is my original comment.


""the national guard at this point is only being used to protect federal employees and buildings.""

my point is the national guard is not participating in policing actions at this point. they are currently there protecting federal buildings assets and personnel.
They are authorized to support ICE in their ongoing activities of dubious legality. They are a single step away from having (again questionable legally) "authority" to engage in direct action against civilians.

In either case, firing of weapons indiscriminately is not required to protect buildings. Removing the personnel would be adequate to protect them.
 
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15 (17 / -2)
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graylshaped

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I personally don't want mob rule to decide who gets to go to work and who doesn't. this is in response to you saying the federal government should remove it's employee's.
I personally don't want a mediocre TV personality deciding what laws should be enforced, or that due process doesn't apply to people he wants out of the way.
 
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barich

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That's the point of peaceful protest. Right now, we are not in a state of civil war. Right now, what we need are for the muddled middle, the parents with kids and bills, the average American, to see that this administration is lawless and that ordinary people are taking a peaceful stand.

The government and the media are not going to tell that story. For Trump, it's not the narrative he wants to push, for the media it doesn't generate the clicks/views that chaos does.

If so much as one act of theft or violence happens, that's going to be the headline no matter how peaceful everyone else was.
 
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graylshaped

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ah sorry to burst your bubble but he won the popular vote. by the way here is the definition of majority as well

majority=
a number or percentage equaling more than half of a total
a majority of voters

a two-thirds majority
He hit none of those bars, silly wabbit.
 
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25 (26 / -1)
ah sorry to burst your bubble but he won the popular vote. by the way here is the definition of majority as well

majority=
a number or percentage equaling more than half of a total
a majority of voters

a two-thirds majority
What's your point? Hitler was also elected legitimately.
 
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12 (15 / -3)

Router66

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I personally don't want mob rule to decide who gets to go to work and who doesn't. this is in response to you saying the federal government should remove it's employee's.
Riots in the street when a fascist takeover (under the pretense of martial law) is imminent. How dare they?!!!

This is textbook Latin America in the 70's and 80 's. ICE thugs provoke riots, army called in to "suppress" and it's over. The CIA has set up dozens of these. Simple and efficient.
 
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numerobis

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ah sorry to burst your bubble but he won the popular vote. by the way here is the definition of majority as well

majority=
a number or percentage equaling more than half of a total
a majority of voters

a two-thirds majority
He got just under half of the vote.

His approval rating has fallen far lower than that though.
 
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k h

Ars Centurion
349
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Sure, but as a mobile camera and sensor platform cruising through a protest against government overreach, it's not unreasonable to expect they will be used to collect information about protestors after the fact for further prosecution etc. There is probably an argument that Waymo should not operate in situations like this because they are going to be targeted by law enforcement as data sources, and by protesters to prevent their use as data sources. I'm not accusing you of burying the lede, but it's an interesting aspect of this emerging technology.
The cameras on a self-driving car produce an enormous flood of video data. It is just not possible to save very much of it. To upload video, it has to be sent through the car's cellular data link, which has only limited capacity - much like streaming video from your phone over cellular (not wifi). Alternatively, robotaxis could be equipped with a big disk for saving video, uploaded through a high bandwidth link when the car returns to its garage. I worked at a company that used both methods in its small engineering test fleet.

It was soon realized that nobody ever cared to look at the daily terabytes of video, except for occasional episodes when a car would encounter some kind of difficult or unusual situation or require realtime assistance from a remote operator. It was pointless and costly to try to capture all that data. Instead, under normal conditions the cars retain the video for only a few minutes. The onboard AI is taught to watch for stressful situations or unusual events, and trigger recording from shortly before the event until shortly after the return to normal. Only these clips were then uploaded and saved for possible later review.

If there's an accident or crime near the car, a stressful traffic situation, emergency vehicle lights or sirens, a human directing traffic, a construction zone, etc, it was intended that the car would autonomously save that video to be uploaded. It would discard other video.

There's a good chance that cars like these would indeed capture video when being vandalized or encountering people marching or blocking traffic.

However, note that the robocar's cameras only need good enough resolution and image quality for making driving decisions. More pixels require more compute: the car's computer has to be bigger and faster. The cameras are designed for driving, not cinematography. People's faces may not be identifiable unless they are close to the car.

Robotaxis are not much good as a surveillance platform because they aren't equipped to store or transmit much of what they see. I suppose if a protest is expected, government agents could hang out in the robotaxi remote assistance control room, look over the shoulders of the remote operators, and demand that they turn on realtime streaming from specific cars. But really they would get much better results by flying a drone over the crowd, or a helicopter (their helicopter probably has a stabilized camera pod with a long zoom lens).
 
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bugsbony

Ars Scholae Palatinae
1,017
You can't make this government look bad enough to flip enough support to curtail their behavior. They aren't a political movement, they're a religion. A fuck load of the ardent supporters completely severed ties with their entire families to back MAGA.
Don't make the mistake of thinking all supporters of Trump are the same, obviously you can't convince everyone, but there is a lot of other kinds of supporters. There are 2 things that really push people one way or the other: money and security. These protests will be portrayed as either "violent thugs attacking law and order" or "violent police attacking peaceful protesters", both affect the feeling of how secure you and your family are, you really want to them to be seen the right way.

Anyway, you don't have a choice, the goal is to shift public opinion as much as possible, and if you reach enough then either the pressure is enough, or it becomes a revolution. If you can't reach a high enough public opinion, then you can't do anything.
 
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What evidence is there that these were burned by protesters? Obviously it's possible, but you've stated it as a fact. So you have proof, right?
My reply is more to Dr. Gitlin than to you, but you have a very good point. Trump is known to want to grab power, and has had ICE agents in plain clothes and unmarked vehicles arrest innocent people.

It's not far fetched at all that the people on video aren't actual protestors deciding to do this. It's likely they are, but not certain.
 
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