Months after Kotaku first revealed extent of horribleness, lawsuits finally hit.
Read the whole story
Read the whole story
Riot Games sued over allegations of sexual harassment, pay disparity
- Thread starter JournalBot
- Start date
Riot already acknowledged that the problem is a real one when the original allegations came up in August. They're also not denying them in response to this lawsuit, and the lawsuit is making pretty specific claims around email chains and similar documents that will be trivially easy to prove.
Calling allegations false and insisting that they'll soon be proven false when we already know that they aren't is an exceptionally stupid thing to do.
Upvote
181
(182
/
-1)
ColdWetDog
Ars Legatus Legionis
I feel better already.
I mean really, why do companies do this? Is there a book "101 Meaningless PR Statements" that is distributed to 'company spokesman'?
Upvote
98
(99
/
-1)
It can be both because the kind of people who complain about things being too "PC" are often exactly the kind of people who would talk about having sex with female employees then call anyone complaining about it an annoying SJW who doesn't know how to take a joke
Upvote
142
(151
/
-9)
Look, I'm the first who's worked in IT for 20+ years and sees "normal" the type of jokes and comments we do, but let's be honest, IT teams have usually been a sausage fest.
My girlfriend is IT as well and at Uni she would hear those jokes and comments regarding other girls, one day she kind of complained and was told "you are one of the guys"
The whole society needs to understand that some jokes are not acceptable, and that's not being politically correct, is not being an asshole.
Let me put it another way. Some could consider I've always been harassed because I'm small (1'63; 53 kg) so comments about being a dwarf, grow up, etc, I've heard them all; I've punched a few faces as well as getting into some gruesome fights for that. But that's me, if you insult me I bash your head off.
A proper society would not insult people "because is a joke" and should make sure no one feels attacked/harassed because of who they are, fullstop.
Again, not being politically correct, just not being an asshole.
Upvote
78
(106
/
-28)
Given that this is a formal legal dispute, dismissing it as some sort of fluffy accusation from nowhere is a bit absurd. The article also strongly suggests that the plaintiffs have a pile digital evidence (emails at least).
Furthermore, from where I stand the me-too movement is not really a tide of false-allegations. More like a lot of individuals with legitimate sexual harassment grievances are finally speaking out, and there's a large backlog of them to get through. Sure, there are probably a few bad apples making false accusations for whatever reason, but that doesn't make the movement illegitimate.
Upvote
91
(96
/
-5)
Shocked. Shocking. Unbelievable. How could this even happen in this century?
Those are the words I'd like to write. But I'm a woman working in tech, who has worked in various related positions (generally development) most of her working life. Shit like this is immediately believable, because I've seen plenty of shit like this, and I've taken what are relatively (industry based) [far] lower paying positions in very large parts specifically to avoid shit like this (and in other parts because I like work where I can believe in what I'm doing and the goals we have). Evidence and everything else for in court, but just making the claims is enough for me to believe it's true of a given tech company that doesn't have real HR (and far too often, most don't, especially anything coming out of startup culture or games), at this point.
Sure, if actual serious evidence shows up otherwise, I'm ready to listen. But I'm not going to assume a loss at court means it's not true, because I've also seen enough workplace harassment suits where the harassment is well and solidly documented still result in a loss to no longer assume a court outcome tells the entire story alone.
A long time ago, I dreamed of being a game dev. Yeaaahhh. I know, right!? If I ever step foot into that world again (other than as someone who simply buys and plays games, because that's never stopping), it's definitely going to be only as an Indy, and on my own terms, and at that point just as a hobby for the sake of that, with any money just being a nice bonus. There are a small handful of gaming companies I'd consider, based on friends who happen to also be women who have had reasonably non horrible experiences, but I'm pretty jaded at this point on even many of those "more enlightened" companies, given that it's only relative. Game dev work easily ends up being over exploited as it is, compounded with being a woman and the shit that occurs (gamergate only even scratches the surface, if you dig deeper there are a lot more stories that involve heaps of harassment that just never got that kind of coverage) outside of simply inside the companies? Ehhh.
Those are the words I'd like to write. But I'm a woman working in tech, who has worked in various related positions (generally development) most of her working life. Shit like this is immediately believable, because I've seen plenty of shit like this, and I've taken what are relatively (industry based) [far] lower paying positions in very large parts specifically to avoid shit like this (and in other parts because I like work where I can believe in what I'm doing and the goals we have). Evidence and everything else for in court, but just making the claims is enough for me to believe it's true of a given tech company that doesn't have real HR (and far too often, most don't, especially anything coming out of startup culture or games), at this point.
Sure, if actual serious evidence shows up otherwise, I'm ready to listen. But I'm not going to assume a loss at court means it's not true, because I've also seen enough workplace harassment suits where the harassment is well and solidly documented still result in a loss to no longer assume a court outcome tells the entire story alone.
A long time ago, I dreamed of being a game dev. Yeaaahhh. I know, right!? If I ever step foot into that world again (other than as someone who simply buys and plays games, because that's never stopping), it's definitely going to be only as an Indy, and on my own terms, and at that point just as a hobby for the sake of that, with any money just being a nice bonus. There are a small handful of gaming companies I'd consider, based on friends who happen to also be women who have had reasonably non horrible experiences, but I'm pretty jaded at this point on even many of those "more enlightened" companies, given that it's only relative. Game dev work easily ends up being over exploited as it is, compounded with being a woman and the shit that occurs (gamergate only even scratches the surface, if you dig deeper there are a lot more stories that involve heaps of harassment that just never got that kind of coverage) outside of simply inside the companies? Ehhh.
Upvote
114
(123
/
-9)
This seems like such a simple concept. Don't be a jerk; treat others as you'd want to be treated. These are such simple values to live by.
It has nothing to do with being "PC" or not; it just means be considerate of how others may react to one's actions and behaviors, especially in a professional environment.
Upvote
68
(70
/
-2)
Just a minor quibble: I really dislike some aspects of what Riot promised to do better. For example, "reevaluating" words like "gamer". English is a language, words have meanings. Having the D&I types try to re-define them is annoying and counterproductive.
Just as an example: Some people were once called "crippled". That became politically incorrect, so they were called "handicapped". Pretty soon, that word took on the obvious meaning, and became non-PC. So the same people were then called "disabled". Now, of course, people don't like the word "disabled" and want to invent a new term.
This is a stupid game - let's not play it.
Just as an example: Some people were once called "crippled". That became politically incorrect, so they were called "handicapped". Pretty soon, that word took on the obvious meaning, and became non-PC. So the same people were then called "disabled". Now, of course, people don't like the word "disabled" and want to invent a new term.
This is a stupid game - let's not play it.
Upvote
-13
(27
/
-40)
They weren't suggesting that they "redefine" the term "gamer". They said that they were evaluating those words to make sure that they mean the same thing throughout the company.
On the face of it, it's very easy to say "of course they do, a gamer is just someone who plays games", but that's not what everyone means when they use the term. It's really frequently used like this:
"Well, they just play sports games, so they aren't really gamers."
"Well, mobile gamers aren't real gamers."
"She's not really a gamer, she just wants to bandwagon on that stuff because it's popular."
All of those imply definitions that specifically exclude people based on their genre preferences, their platform of choice, or their gender. The definitions that they imply make no sense, but people still use them. Parsing out those things and coming to a proper, formal definition that does make sense is a legitimately helpful thing to do.
Upvote
73
(75
/
-2)
I don't quite understand how this is relevant to the article. Riot is continually developing League of Legends, and putting out new games isn't necessarily a measure of the company's success.
Upvote
38
(43
/
-5)
Hate to tell you there is some, I would actually say a lot, of people for whom a good ass whooping is literally the only thing they understand. Case in point, my grandfather was a government contractor that was often away from home and most times when he was away from home my uncle would get down right abusive to his mother (my grandmother), once he slapped her and shoved her around. That night she waited till he was asleep, got his baseball bat, and took it to him (he was like 6’2” 180 lbs and she was like 5,0” and under 100 lbs). He never raised a hand or back talked her again, actually he became a tremendously well mannered kid.
But yes there are plenty of people in the world that will only ever understand and change after getting a beating. Until they do it is just everyone else’s fault for what happens to them in their mind (I.e. the guys that get fired from riot aren’t going to internalize it as they were horrible people that need to change their attitude, they are going to internalize it as someone is out to get them or took it out of context or can’t take a joke).
Upvote
26
(36
/
-10)
When did a PR department anywhere ever do anything meaningful?
Upvote
22
(22
/
0)
I get that no one likes being insulted but trying to povoke violence through racist/homophobic/xenophobic insults makes you worse than the original perp in my opinion.
Upvote
43
(46
/
-3)
This is the worst thing to have come out of the Kavanaugh debacle. Due to the Senate being unwilling to properly investigate the claims, now every jackass is going to assume that any kind of accusation is "false".
Upvote
29
(36
/
-7)
But that's the entirety of what being "politically correct" is: Not being an asshole.
Upvote
34
(42
/
-8)
You'd think so. But remember back to when Linus Torvalds said he was taking time off to stop being such a dick: There were soooooooo many people who said, "I'd consider it a badge of honor if Linus verbally attacked me"
Upvote
11
(11
/
0)
Company that made a game with one of the most toxic playerbases around turns out to have a toxic culture itself?
Gosh, I'm stunned.
Gosh, I'm stunned.
Upvote
46
(50
/
-4)
I don't know about other game development studios but the one I worked for you could count on 1 hand the number of female employees working on our AAA game and the developers, designers, and artists mostly had the maturity and professionalism of high school freshmen.
Upvote
21
(21
/
0)
The lawsuit is not about Kotaku or the articles that they wrote, it is about the issues that those articles exposed. It does not rely on the Kotaku reporting, and those reports are only included to provide context.
Despite this, your first impulse was to jump in with a non-sequitur attack with an implied appeal to hypocrisy on the part of what you (incorrectly) thought the story was about. Your immediate reaction to credible, well-supported claims of sexual discrimination is to try and discredit what you think is the source without even looking to make sure it's actually the source.
This does not reflect well on you.
Upvote
71
(75
/
-4)
Every time I start to truly feel like a complete fucking asshole, one of these stories comes out and I realize that by simply being polite, I'm a half decent human being.
That should be depressing.
That should be depressing.
Upvote
44
(44
/
0)
Upvote
49
(50
/
-1)
Why do I always click the "Post content hidden for low score. Click to show post" link?
Upvote
53
(55
/
-2)
There's a certain perverse enjoyment in seeing how monumentally terrible people can be, while also knowing that the community has judged them for their terribleness and consigned them to the low score content filter.
That's my working theory, anyway.
Upvote
53
(55
/
-2)
I always do it to see if the horribleness of the comment justifies me adding another downvote to it.
Sometimes -25 is enough. Sometimes the comment deserves every downvote coming to it.
Upvote
50
(53
/
-3)
How unbelievably shitty do you have to be as a person to put down that kind of an ultimatum? "Let us harass and demean you as much as possible or we're just not going to hire you"?
Upvote
46
(49
/
-3)