RFK Jr. can promote getting measles with impunity, DOJ lawyer tells judge

Hmnhntr

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I really, really REALLY dread the upcoming shitshow in 2028 when he says he is going to run for a 3rd term and everyone else can get over it.

Because we all know it is coming.
Nah, I honestly don't think he will make it that long. It will be JD Vance trying to continue the administration into the next term. Whether or not he can make that happen, I don't know; but I'm sure he'll use Trump's name as much as possible to try to keep the diehards latched onto him.
 
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Hmnhntr

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Sure. Back before the vaccine. If it was spreading amongst kids in a group it was almost a certainty that they would all get it. And spread it to siblings. So many parents would actively do this. I get it.

But now we have a vaccine. So this is stupid. Well at least ignorant. I try and use the two terms correctly. As the saying goes, "You can't fix stupid."
Ignorant is the much worse problem than stupid, honestly. I've known people who took a long time to read, couldn't do much math, had trouble recalling things, but who still made the effort, despite all of that, to learn. I'd much rather have a stupid person willing to try working with me than a smart person who refuses to learn anything.
 
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Hmnhntr

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Fundamentally, the flaw isn't with the system.

The system is working as intended.

The flaw is with those who conceived of the system. The system requires that all participants in that system be reasonable, knowledgeable and reasonably informed, since it is the voters who decide who our leaders will be.

And clearly, the human race lacks a majority who are up to the task of reliably making that decision.

Just think of all the folks who are appalled at what's going on, and remember that more people who wanted what's going on voted for it. The WHY'S are simple. On average, humans are fucking stupid.

When you ask the stupid who should lead us, this shit is what you get.
Except that, in and of itself, is a failure of the system to educate its populace. A huge part of this problem is how bad schools are in this country. History classes just teach propaganda (my friend teaches history. He had to give out a standardized test that had a multiple choice question, "What is the least free country in the world?" with the correct answer being "China"), parents are allowed to exempt their children from critical science lessons, we teach reading in a provably ineffective way (context reading has repeatedly been shown to lower reading comprehension in comparison to phonics), and we build the whole system around pointless standardized tests that we don't let anyone fail anyways (because then you lose funding).

That's not to excuse people's stupidity, but it is a factor that should not be ignored. These people are stupid by design.
 
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Hmnhntr

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Lucky for most of us, Trump has already set the stage for this. Kennedy will probably feel the heat. The runaround regarding the supreme court tariff's ruling and trump trying to work around it will definitely matter here, and I bet the judge is aware of that nonsense.

Sorry, I have optimism. I've been following the courts, even the supreme court, throughout this nonsense, and the message, even from conservatives, is that they are sick of this bullshit. I suspect they'll put up with a little more, and then the clap back will get real.

If I had to guess, I'd say Trump's attempt to run for a third term will be a start of the clap back.

Courts need to feel like they power, regardless of politics. If they believe they are losing that power, they will push to stop that from happening.
The question is, will they actually pull away from the rhetoric that brought him into power, and the policies that lead to all of this? I don't have much hope in that regard. They may pull ICE off the streets, but they'll keep railing about criminal immigrants. They may move away from RFK and anti-vaxx nonsense, but they'll keep pushing distrust in science and experts. They may back off from full-blown Christian Nationalism, but they will keep calling this a Christian nation and using religious rhetoric to cast their enemies as evil.

We can't fall for the trap of believing that getting rid of Trump will solve much of anything.
 
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pnellesen

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“As democracy is perfected, the office of the president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day, the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.” - H.L. Mencken, in 1920
I wonder if he thought it would take until the 21st Century for this to happen. One can argue it happened well before that, but compared to our current Idiot-in-Chief, all other presidents have been paragons of intellectual achievement and ability.
 
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Jeff S

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That's exactly the position of the entire Trump administration. Anything they do is "unreviewable". Trump won the presidential election, and their view is that made him the king for four years.*

* Minimum
And not a single one of them held that view when Biden and Obama were president.

I'd also be willing to wager that if a Democratic candidate is ever allowed to win an actually free and fair election again in the future, that Republicans won't hold this view any longer.
 
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Jeff S

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I wonder if he thought it would take until the 21st Century for this to happen. One can argue it happened well before that, but compared to our current Idiot-in-Chief, all other presidents have been paragons of intellectual achievement and ability.
It already happened earlier in the 21st Century - George W Bush stole won the election in 2000 and became president in 2001, so literally the very first year of the 21st Century.
 
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NOT_RICK

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I'm afraid 40k isn't a good fit. To start with, a nurgle acolyte by the canon of that franchise is at least outgoing, friendly, and quite jolly as they lavishly share the grandfather's gifts. Not to mention truthful - they'd be the last to deny the effects of those gifts. Whereas RFK Jr. is a lying grifter in it for the moola of peddling 'alternative medicine'.
Pete Hegseth? A chickenshit coward who's never been on a battlefield cheering violence on from afar? No, that's not going to be a great fit for the guy whose adherents are all close-combat fanatics.
Miller, the dumb-dumb archconservative moron unable to plot his way out of a paper bag whose primary quality is bigotry and the ability to kiss the ringpiece? Not the first choice for the Changer of Ways.

The administration of mango mussolini is too dumb for Gork and Mork, which is saying something.

If anything I'd say that those guys, were they moved into the 40k franchise would stand out as being among the rare few to be considered shunned by all the ruinous powers as too inept to even serve as cannon fodder.

I suppose you're right. There's definitely a distinct lack of kunnin' brutality and brutal kunnin'
 
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Focher

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Ignorant is the much worse problem than stupid, honestly. I've known people who took a long time to read, couldn't do much math, had trouble recalling things, but who still made the effort, despite all of that, to learn. I'd much rather have a stupid person willing to try working with me than a smart person who refuses to learn anything.
It because ignorance is a choice, so the person is wholly invested in their knowledge. A stupid person almost always realizes they have cognitive limitations and often works within those bounds.
 
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JohnDeL

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How are we at a place where untrained, unqualified, uncredentialed, unprofessional people are allowed to set medical policy? Last I heard RFK Jr. wasn't a licensed physician. What's next, he decides to go Theodoric of York Medieval Barber on everyone and have the CDC start recommending leeches?
That would actually be a step forward as there are some medical uses for leeches. There is no medical use for getting measles (unless you count "losing immunity to other diseases" as a medical use).
 
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brightsafflicted

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MedicalGeek

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The problem is that most of our current problems won't be fixed without some short-term pain. And that means that the ignorant will never be willing to do the right long-term thing, which gives the rabble-rousers an inherent advantage.
Even those of us who may not be stupid do not trust that the fixes would only be short term pain to solve longer term problems. Everything just piles more stress on us peons while the bazillionaires get richer and richer.
 
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numerobis

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How are we at a place where untrained, unqualified, uncredentialed, unprofessional people are allowed to set medical policy? Last I heard RFK Jr. wasn't a licensed physician. What's next, he decides to go Theodoric of York Medieval Barber on everyone and have the CDC start recommending leeches?
RFK is more likely to ban leeches and maggots, which are best practices in certain settings.
 
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RobStow

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I think that's a perfectly valid question. Best we have is the lawyer saying...

"But the lawyer for the groups, James Oh, countered that the vaccine policy changes—which were not carried out with typical processes and lack supporting scientific evidence—were done improperly and without reasoned decision-making."

...which implies that there must be law somewhere that says those things are required. I am also curious about those details.
It wouldn't surprise me if there actually is not any "law somewhere that says those things are required". I don't have any trouble at all imagining that it never occurred to the people who wrote the US constitution and bill of rights that they needed to explicitly state that the possession of intelligence and common sense should be required of the president and his cronies and that those people should be required to use those things.

It probably never occurred to them that someday the American people would decide to elect to the office of president a man who thoroughly demonstrated he was by far their stupidest possible choice ... and then that man in turn would fill the highest positions in his cabinet with the stupidest people he could find. Trump got elected because he speaks fluent stupid and that is the only language that far too many voters understand. Then he filled his cabinet with others who speak the same language.
 
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Don't give them ideas. Have you ever heard of chickenpox parties?

Note: If you are over 50, "chickenpox parties" would make sense. Especially scheduling a prolonged sickness during the summer before first grade or something (in the 60s-70s there was a fairly high chance mom stayed home to watch kids anyway). I got the chickenpox while staying with a neighbor, and my mom said "oh good" when I likely caught it (well before the vaccine).

Chickenpox was a disease that you wanted to get over because kids got a mild version. I doubt that is true of measles and anything else the christian right has returned from the grave.

That I heard of them still going on in the 21st century is crazy. Still have to get that shingle shot...
 
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Raistian77

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Couldn't tell you why you're getting downvoted. The article does state "... the vaccine policy changes—which were not carried out with typical processes and lack supporting scientific evidence—were done improperly and without reasoned decision-making." which implies there is a process, but the nature of that process will be the key.
Because it was obvious they didn't bother to read the article as their question was answered in the article
 
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Watching his physical and cognitive decline accelerate over the last year I'm finding it hard to worry about this. Can we really see him lasting to 2028? He really isn't well.

There's only so far you can carry a man that's falling apart. At this rate they will need Jim Henson's Creature Shop to animate him by 2027.
Election Day 2028 at Bernie's?
 
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llanitedave

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I mean, you can think that, certainly. But you don't know that. Not to mention that early in his 2nd term last year he was already talking about the 22nd amendment as it if was optional.
The only possible way for him to remain in power is for him to cancel elections and have ICE murder his opponents. I wouldn't classify that as running for office.
 
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llanitedave

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Ignorant is the much worse problem than stupid, honestly. I've known people who took a long time to read, couldn't do much math, had trouble recalling things, but who still made the effort, despite all of that, to learn. I'd much rather have a stupid person willing to try working with me than a smart person who refuses to learn anything.
The refusal to learn isn't smart.
 
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llanitedave

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The question is, will they actually pull away from the rhetoric that brought him into power, and the policies that lead to all of this? I don't have much hope in that regard. They may pull ICE off the streets, but they'll keep railing about criminal immigrants. They may move away from RFK and anti-vaxx nonsense, but they'll keep pushing distrust in science and experts. They may back off from full-blown Christian Nationalism, but they will keep calling this a Christian nation and using religious rhetoric to cast their enemies as evil.

We can't fall for the trap of believing that getting rid of Trump will solve much of anything.
It's a necessary first step.
 
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numerobis

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Note: If you are over 50, "chickenpox parties" would make sense. Especially scheduling a prolonged sickness during the summer before first grade or something (in the 60s-70s there was a fairly high chance mom stayed home to watch kids anyway). I got the chickenpox while staying with a neighbor, and my mom said "oh good" when I likely caught it (well before the vaccine).

Chickenpox was a disease that you wanted to get over because kids got a mild version. I doubt that is true of measles and anything else the christian right has returned from the grave.

That I heard of them still going on in the 21st century is crazy. Still have to get that shingle shot...
Measles is also better gotten young. It was one of the big killers in the columbian exchange.
 
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numerobis

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The only possible way for him to remain in power is for him to cancel elections and have ICE murder his opponents. I wouldn't classify that as running for office.
If he manages to wrangle allies then he runs, elections happen, and he wins handily.

Pay no attention to the vote counting procedures in certain key states. California and New York will be squeaky clean, so will Idaho. Texas and Florida… not so much.

The big question is whether a decrepit demented man can keep his governing alliance going.

If there’s a Democrat who could beat him despite election shenanigans, he/she hasn’t shown up yet.
 
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numerobis

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Bringing your attention to Clinton, who won the popular vote, and Biden, who won both the popular vote and the Electoral College vote.
Neither of them seem likely to run in 2028.

And Clinton famously lost with much milder shenanigans than what Trump’s goons are likely to try in 2028.
 
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Unreviewable? That’s ridiculous. The US system is built upon every branch being reviewable by other branches. There is no absolute power. The president can be overridden by Congress or the courts. Congress can be overridden by the president or the court. The courts can be overridden by Congress and the states. Department heads are below all of them and can be overruled by the president, congress, or the courts. This is first year law student stuff. Hell this is stuff people should know coming out of High School. It isn’t hard. To have a administration lawyer try to argue this in court is laughably stupid.
 
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