On batteries and solar cells, Tesla-Panasonic partnership has been a little fraught.
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Report: Tesla working on battery-cell R&D to loosen ties with Panasonic
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Solar, Batteries, Electric Cars, Rockets, Subterranean Drills..... is there anything I'm missing? Soon he'll have all of the manufacturing capability to become a true Bond Villain...
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Yes, the ability to not spew out every stupid thing that enters his head on Twitter.
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Tesla have had a battery research division for quite some time.
They also bought a German company that makes the battery machines, and Maxwell tech.
They are also hell bent on vertical integration.
So looking at their own cell production is a pretty simple and obvious conclusion.
They also bought a German company that makes the battery machines, and Maxwell tech.
They are also hell bent on vertical integration.
So looking at their own cell production is a pretty simple and obvious conclusion.
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For all of Musk's companies I think there's a pretty good heuristic:
1) Do we use the part?
Yes
2) Do we make the part?
No
3) Find a way to make the part.
We can't make it.
4) Buy it until we can.
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If bond villain have twitter, they probably will spew in twitter too
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I would argue that spewing out stupid things in front of an audience is in fact a key component of becoming a proper Bond Villain.
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The most villainous people spout stupid things on Twitter. I think that trait would 'qualify' him as a bond villain and not disqualify him XD
edit: beaten to the pawnch.
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Tesla has clearly been working on their own cell chemistry for quite some time. They work with Jeff Dahn for example, working on reducing the amount of cobalt in their cells to maybe zero. The fact that Tesla has their own labs, work on cell production optimization and so forth should not be surprising. They worked extensively with Panasonic on the production of cells in their Gigafactory 1, for instance. However, none of the information coming out so far necessarily points to a separation between Tesla and Panasonic.
For example, the reports from April really just reflect that there would be no additional expansion beyond upfitting their existing lines and optimizing their existing production until it made sense to do so. First, Tesla has to build new sections of Gigafactory 1 in order for there to be any room to install new equipment. And given Tesla's acquisition of Maxwell, it probably makes sense that Tesla wants to incorporate the dry battery electrode technology they just bought into production as quickly as possible. That may delay the addition of new sections. As it stands, there is still a lot of work to optimize production from about 24 GWh to the nameplate of 35 GWh at Gigafactory 1. In any case, Tesla still has a commanding lead on the size of cell production dedicated to their vehicles, they have near 33 GWh when one also adds the cell production output from Panasonic's factories in Osaka, Japan.
For example, the reports from April really just reflect that there would be no additional expansion beyond upfitting their existing lines and optimizing their existing production until it made sense to do so. First, Tesla has to build new sections of Gigafactory 1 in order for there to be any room to install new equipment. And given Tesla's acquisition of Maxwell, it probably makes sense that Tesla wants to incorporate the dry battery electrode technology they just bought into production as quickly as possible. That may delay the addition of new sections. As it stands, there is still a lot of work to optimize production from about 24 GWh to the nameplate of 35 GWh at Gigafactory 1. In any case, Tesla still has a commanding lead on the size of cell production dedicated to their vehicles, they have near 33 GWh when one also adds the cell production output from Panasonic's factories in Osaka, Japan.
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Yeah I dont think that current relationship will change least for a while, they still need those 24-35GWh of cells.
But if Panasonic is unwilling to invest more into production lines and tesla can then that will happen.
Between Semi, roadster and model Y they will need a lot more cells.
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Meanwhile.......
BMW shows no desire to make own batteries in electric push, frustrating German govt
https://electrek.co/2019/06/26/bmw-no-batteries-german/
BMW shows no desire to make own batteries in electric push, frustrating German govt
https://electrek.co/2019/06/26/bmw-no-batteries-german/
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They already invested in swedish Northvolt consortium a few months ago. They don't need/want to invest in its german/french equivalent.
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Nope, this actually helps. I’m pretty sure Drumpf is actually Ernst Blofeld.
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This has been obvious since the annual shareholder meeting a few weeks ago (as pointed out by Electrek).
The goal of the Maxwell acquisition is to reduce (by 25-33%) the floor space and capex to make batteries. If they can do that, they will be well on their way to reducing the COGS for future vehicles (the Model S/X/3 will still use genuine Panaphonics cells until the agreement is at the end of term).
The goal of the Maxwell acquisition is to reduce (by 25-33%) the floor space and capex to make batteries. If they can do that, they will be well on their way to reducing the COGS for future vehicles (the Model S/X/3 will still use genuine Panaphonics cells until the agreement is at the end of term).
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Every time battery tech comes up, I marvel at the fact I took undergrad physics classes taught by Jeff Dahn at Dalhousie before Tesla hired him, and was babysat as a kid by one of the grad students on his battery research team!
He was a really good teacher too, his classes were always full of practical demos. Overall great guy, and doing really neat work.
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Interestingly China just announced the end of their program that essentially required domestic cell use to qualify for the EV credit just as the subsidy is being phased out. Perhaps Tesla is looking to go it alone in China after talks earlier this year with CATL appear to have not worked out (they may be too busy ramping up capacity for the Germans to want to deal with Tesla's razor thin margin demands.
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It’s a strange read from Megan. In October they said they expanded a bunch so that hurt profits. In February, Tesla was the bright spot for the business unit, because they weren’t expanding as fast anymore so they could reap the profits.
https://finance.yahoo.com/amphtml/news/ ... 59083.html
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IMNSHO, THIS is the business story of the year.
Is Tesla ready to take on battery manufacturing themselves?
Does the Panasonic partnership agreement have a closeout date?
Will CATL or another Chinese company take over supply?
Is the refreshed Model S/X switching to 2170 cells with the refresh?
The future of the EV will depend on how well this situation is resolved.
Is Tesla ready to take on battery manufacturing themselves?
Does the Panasonic partnership agreement have a closeout date?
Will CATL or another Chinese company take over supply?
Is the refreshed Model S/X switching to 2170 cells with the refresh?
The future of the EV will depend on how well this situation is resolved.
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I think its a combo of investing in 35GWh production capacity and only achieving 24GWh plus a high number of rejected cells.
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They have not gone that far. They scrapped the list of authorized battery suppliers that only contained local firms. This will improve the situation of the LG and Samsung plants in China that were only used for exports until now. Other subsidies and regulations favouring factories in China are still there.
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As a shareholder, this is absolutely one of the most exciting moves Tesla has made in years. It's right up there with developing the SC network and Autopilot.
As a Tesla fan, this news isn't going to change much in the coming months. It's not going to affect the upcoming ModelS&X updates that are coming in the fall. Production won't be seeing Tesla-made cells any time real soon. But this is about bringing the profit margin in-house for yet another major piece of the product. At first it was a necessity, when making ModelS many suppliers wouoldn't work with them, especially on spec! Back then they had to make their own... everything it seemed.
This is what self-reliance becomes when it grows up. Dominant, vertically integrated expertise.
As a Tesla fan, this news isn't going to change much in the coming months. It's not going to affect the upcoming ModelS&X updates that are coming in the fall. Production won't be seeing Tesla-made cells any time real soon. But this is about bringing the profit margin in-house for yet another major piece of the product. At first it was a necessity, when making ModelS many suppliers wouoldn't work with them, especially on spec! Back then they had to make their own... everything it seemed.
This is what self-reliance becomes when it grows up. Dominant, vertically integrated expertise.
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You and I agree.
-Are they ready to take over themselves? Sort of y, sort of no. Soon they will be.
There's a new building in Lathrop that's doing nothing. Is this what it was built for? Maybe? Maybe it's for building parts for the Semi, Truck or ?
-Panasonic partnership is just that, both sides need to agree to stop working together. Yikes.
-Chinese cell supply for Tesla's in China is almost assured. But who knows...?
-2170's in new S&X, many of us assume yes but we don't know whether Panasonic facilities in Japan have been upgraded for that purpose. It's too hard to watch them 24/7 and no one is saying for sure.
This truly is a momentous shift and another turning point in the business.
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2170 for S/X isnt really a deal, it does need a redesigned pack to be similar to the 3 (for safety and cooling), the 2170 is a more efficient package but not vital.
Energy density of the 3 pack only increased because of the packaging of the electronics etc, the 2170's are better for density but that was offset with addition spacing/cooling etc
Energy density of the 3 pack only increased because of the packaging of the electronics etc, the 2170's are better for density but that was offset with addition spacing/cooling etc
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Why would they? Those are parts for which there is more competition, driving down prices, and for which there is essentially no capacity limit of existing suppliers. Also, there's no real room for technical improvement. Entirely different from batteries.
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That fits too, considering the Bond villains always explain their plan in excruciating detail instead of just killing Bond.
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I think it's a little more complicated than that, although not by much.
2.5) Is the cost of the part significantly higher than the cost of its raw materials?
One of SpaceX's engine designers said Musk asked him why a Merlin engine, which used about as much Aluminum as a Model S, cost so much more. Obviously Musk knows that there are lots of things that contribute to costs besides raw materials. But if those other costs are primarily fixed costs, or are things that can be reduced through automation, then what could the costs be?
It's also worth noting that many companies make specialized things where the profit margin is quite high, but the total market size is too small for anyone to try to compete on price (instead, they'll compete on features or quality, but everyone tries to keep margins high -- "making it up on volume" isn't realistic). It seems like this is especially true in Aerospace. And, especially in these early days, for electric vehicle components.
Just saying that it may look like Musk always goes for vertical integration, but I think it's partly just a consequence of Tesla and SpaceX working in relatively niche industries.
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You are totally right.
But I think back and the folks who design battery packs haven't exactly had tons of work over the years since the Model3 pack design was finalized. "Production hell" could've been a time where those folks were designing these packs, that's what I was assuming at the time. It's possible the newly designed packs for S&X wouldn't require so much work/effort that it couldn't be completed during the fall update.
But it's not a done deal, that's for sure.
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Apart from the limited cell 3 long range pack, Short range pack, the roadster pack, the semi pack and whatever they are doing for the pickup truck plus any changes for the model Y or energy sector stuff?
I honestly doubt they have a team of pack designers twiddling thumbs..
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A bit like Apple. They now may the A series chips in their iOS devices, are rumoured to be working on their own.displays and def working on their own desktop ARM chips. Less reliance on suppliers but also very risky and expensive if they fail.because they may piss off former partners who they may need later.
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At this point isn't the semi just using gangs of model 3 packs? I mean I guess they could design a custom pack for it but I haven't seen any signs of enough volume orders to justify a bespoke pack.
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