The proposed bill would ban trading, mining, and even holding cryptocurrencies.
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Report: Indian government is planning outright ban on cryptocurrency
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If you have bad credit, opening a bank account can be an exercise in frustration. Even worse if your initial deposit is cash, and in the four or five digit range.
Growth isn't all it is hyped up to be.
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Currently, 3.5 million ETH staked and >100,000 validators. That's a lot of assets staked, so obviously there is a lot betting that POS will happen. Why do you think ETH 2.0 won't happen?
https://launchpad.ethereum.org/en/
You know the miners want to stage a rebellion on April 1st, so I guess we will see how much power they have to fight the upcoming fee changes let alone the move to proof of stake. My guess is that their protest will amount to about zero and eth devs will follow their roadmap. But I am interested to know what the set of problems with POS are besides the threat of a fork?
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I see you don't have anything intelligent to say in defense of bitcoin.
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I never understand why people would make such strong statements. Progress is slow, and things always take longer than we think, be it making a rocket, fundamental research, making a video game, or moving to proof of stake. From what I could tell though, there is already PoS running on Ethereum testnet and it seems that the general consensus is that it would be moved to the new system soon. Just because it's delayed doesn't mean they will never do it. Is there a reason why you think they will never switch? There are obviously all sorts of new problems associated with it and it's more untested, but from what I understand people have been spending a lot of effort on making this work.
For a successful example, the only one I know that's somewhat big is Cardano, which has been rising in value rapidly (but then you could argue it's pump and dump if you want) and is running on a type of PoS system.
I think the big question is after more popular crypto like Ethereum moves to PoS, what Bitcoin will do. It literally invented (well, popularized) Proof-of-Work, and the concept of it is quite baked into the philosophy itself (down to the whitepaper), so I think it could be tricky to switch. Not to mention a lot more money is at stake with Bitcoin since it occupies more than half of the total market cap so people could be skittish.
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alright here's whats what
1-crypto rewards efficiency, it is run mainly on renewables, it drives renewables development, traditional fiat doesnt care
2-nobody has the moral authority to tell anyone whats a waste of energy
3-"crypto is just crime enabling satan" as is any other currency, but in this case no government will be able to print money to pay for wars or subsidize all kinds of dumbfuckery
4-"it is useless as currency, it cant scale" try the lightning network, its the closest thing to the utopian world chinese users of wechat money have been living with for years now, without some authoritarian government in the way
I dont want this nightmarish dystopian currency to become the standard, but I don't see the current system doing anything to improve either, if things keep going this way, soon enough public perception will change, people will realize its the dollar and other fiats that are unstable vs crypto which given enough volume cant be influenced by any single entity
1-crypto rewards efficiency, it is run mainly on renewables, it drives renewables development, traditional fiat doesnt care
2-nobody has the moral authority to tell anyone whats a waste of energy
3-"crypto is just crime enabling satan" as is any other currency, but in this case no government will be able to print money to pay for wars or subsidize all kinds of dumbfuckery
4-"it is useless as currency, it cant scale" try the lightning network, its the closest thing to the utopian world chinese users of wechat money have been living with for years now, without some authoritarian government in the way
I dont want this nightmarish dystopian currency to become the standard, but I don't see the current system doing anything to improve either, if things keep going this way, soon enough public perception will change, people will realize its the dollar and other fiats that are unstable vs crypto which given enough volume cant be influenced by any single entity
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This guy is going to be so disappointed when he finds out his wheat, oil, and gold are going to have to cross international borders to be delivered. Also, that real life is not like Settlers of Catan.
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No, proof-of-work (which Bitcoin uses) doesn't reward efficiency. The entire premise of it is that you have to waste energy / computation to prove that you have done work. So it's baked into the design to be inefficient. When people come up with new chips that can hash faster, the difficulty adjustment algorithm is going to make sure you end up having to calculate more hashes but keep the mining rate at 10 minutes / block.
The amount of energy cost associated with mining Bitcoin is directly associated with how much profit miners can make, which is related to the market cap. The larger the market cap, the more energy will end up being used, regardless of how efficient chips are. It's just an endless arms race, by design.
If we make energy cheaper/greener? Not going to help. If you make energy 1/10th the price, miners are just going to end up using 10x the power because now they can afford to use up more energy to mine. Due to the competitive market of mining, making things more efficient is actually bad, because it makes you can now waste more calculations (hence energy).
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I had the shoe-shine discussion with a friend about two years ago. Friend is in the welding business. On breaks, his coworkers tried to convince him to put everything he had into Bitcoin, otherwise "he was going to lose out". After all, they had put everything into bitcoin. That was about 2 weeks before it hit its max of 20k and dropping to 3k.
And now it's to 60k.
I fully admit that I'm kicking myself nearly daily for not having put some fun money into Bitcoin when I first looked into it. But at the same time, I also admit that I have no idea what's going on with Bitcoin, who is involved, who is driving the price, and what will happen to it.
I still think there's a reasonable chance that governments will effectively turn it into a niche curiosity, putting its price to nearly zero. But it's obvious that many people think it will go to the moon, and hence will move it to the moon.
So I'm just gonna sit here and wonder whether in 5 years, I'll feel as much regret about Bitcoin as I do today, or if I'll just shake my head about how many people got taken in by an obvious scam, as I did 5 years ago.
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I'm willing to wait. It's just been very long... if it happens, I'd love to see it gain traction. My bet remains that it will result in a fork and PoS will lose in the adoption fight and both will remain available but classic ETH will remain a stronger value proposition. People follow the money, so we will see where the sell-off happens and which one pulls ahead. Unfortunately, even if PoS based ETH wins out, it still needs to slay the bitcoin monster, so quite a few ifs need to chain up for my confidence in crypto to be restored.
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The energy use is one of the things that always blew my mind about bitcoin mining. Instead of abstract solutions to abstract problems why haven't I heard of some enterprising company make the mining predicated on actually useful work. Kind of like the SETI project with a profit incentive.
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When did they do that? As far as I know, they're no longer printed, but you can still go to a bank and deposit or exchange them.
I'm personally interested, as I still have some 500 euro bills around and it would be a pity to lose their value.
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Probably more to do with systemic corruption and under the table payments then crypto. Employer pays employee under the table cash that way employer isn't on the hook for those taxes and neither is the employee.
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You people are adorable! Look how excited you all are at the prospect of bitcoin being banned! After years and years of screeching about bitcoin's coming demise I imagine many of you just about jizzed your pants when you saw this headline.
Just keep in mind, the legislation hasn't been introduced or passed yet and their Supreme Court may very well turn it over anyway.
"Last year, India's Supreme Court overturned the ban, triggering a surge of Indian interest in cryptocurrencies."
And then of course people could still use it if they wish anyway and will likely be even more interested in doing so.
But at least you all had this little moment of happiness!
Just keep in mind, the legislation hasn't been introduced or passed yet and their Supreme Court may very well turn it over anyway.
"Last year, India's Supreme Court overturned the ban, triggering a surge of Indian interest in cryptocurrencies."
And then of course people could still use it if they wish anyway and will likely be even more interested in doing so.
But at least you all had this little moment of happiness!
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I can take this ebil fiat to the store and buy milk and eggs or a tv or a PS5 or any manner of legal things. Bitcoin on the other hand outside of some nominal proof of concept is used for nothing but illegal activities. Its speculative value is derived from its ability to be used for illegal activities. Take away the criminality from bitcoin and it collapses.
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My point is, someone mining in Vancouver will out compete someone mining from india because of energy costs, Vancouver is mostly hydro, thats why, miners go to where energy is cheap, renewables are cheaper, mining energy usage will only keep growing, but it will do so demanding cheaper sources, which happens to be a good thing since polluting sources will only get costlier, killing any incentive to mine with it
Miners in china from what ive seen get their farms located as close to the hydro plants as possible, that way they get the cheaper rates and the plant doesn't have to worry about excess production, it would actually be a total waste if they had no miners using up the overflow at this point
Mining through its "waste" of energy will ultimately end up pushing silicon and energy production efficiency, as you said, it is an arms race, pointless as it might seem
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That's not true of stocks since one of the primary motivators for a LOT of investors is based on paying healthy dividends, not on stock prices only going up. I have a couple of dividend-producing stocks which have behaved themselves value-wise -- the per share price has been fairly stable, and I reinvest all the dividends.
Crypto works more along the lines of the kind of stock trading that day-traders do; when it's a bull market they'll be OK, but in a market decline, they're gonna get screwed. So too with the small-time crypto "investors."
I think that something which hasn't been discussed is portfolio rebalancing, less an issue for Tesla, more an issue for the Big Money Investment Firms that have stated guidance they must follow. When BTC's value increases past a certain point, some of them will be forced to sell.
Since it's impossible to know anyone's price targets, or to determine what's a "realistic" target to begin with, I'd be worried about a flash-crash style event when one of the Big Guys decides to sell a large chunk of coins.
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Well of course eth already forked over a disagreement (eth classic/ETC) and the protest fork is essentially not relavent. By market cap it's #60 and eth is #2. So miners (who else cares?) forking over PoS? I am not sure because I don't think anyone cares about miners at all. People with money, investors will follow the developers not a rag-tag bunch of nerds and shady businesses. Ultimately, miners have no real interest in eth besides it is the most profitable coin for non-ASIC mining. They will complain and move to whatever coin is most profitable after eth 2.0 or just give up on mining. At least that is how I see it playing out.
As far as bitcoin, since it doesn't do anything I really assume it will just be abandoned once Defi and coins with actual applications become more accessible. At least with tulips they had aesthetic value.
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People still seem to be confused about the dynamics of Fuck you™ money. Allow me to demonstrate what Bitcoin is all about. I will be quoting snippets of comments from this very thread as examples:
"Report: Indian government is planning outright ban on cryptocurrency"
BTC holder: Fuck you.
"I'm all for it. It's high time for this energy-sucking scam to be legislated away. It has 0 benefit for humanity."
Fuck you.
"Officials seem to be worried that ordinary Indian consumers could make bad cryptocurrency bets and lose their savings as a result. "
Thanks for your concern, Fuck you.
"But think of the children, and the drugs!"
Fuck you.
"India might do the good thing for the wrong reason there. But cryptocurrencies (well Bitcoin specifically) are such a monstrous waste of energy any reason to ban them is welcome."
Fuck you.
"I can't believe this has gone on as long as it has without any government oversight. While I'm sure there are plenty of legit users and purposes, there are also a shit ton of criminals relying on it. It's time to lock it down."
Fuck you.
Are we clear now? Or do I need to cite more examples?
"Report: Indian government is planning outright ban on cryptocurrency"
BTC holder: Fuck you.
"I'm all for it. It's high time for this energy-sucking scam to be legislated away. It has 0 benefit for humanity."
Fuck you.
"Officials seem to be worried that ordinary Indian consumers could make bad cryptocurrency bets and lose their savings as a result. "
Thanks for your concern, Fuck you.
"But think of the children, and the drugs!"
Fuck you.
"India might do the good thing for the wrong reason there. But cryptocurrencies (well Bitcoin specifically) are such a monstrous waste of energy any reason to ban them is welcome."
Fuck you.
"I can't believe this has gone on as long as it has without any government oversight. While I'm sure there are plenty of legit users and purposes, there are also a shit ton of criminals relying on it. It's time to lock it down."
Fuck you.
Are we clear now? Or do I need to cite more examples?
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I can buy all those things (anything at all really) with PayPal NFC in-store using my bitcoin at paypal.
Whoopty-do, look at me.
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You do know that's not at all what "fuck you money" means, right? It doesn't mean you're an abusive asshole, it means you can maintain your current lifestyle forever without needing a job.
Depending on your lifestyle, "fuck you money" starts at ~10 million bucks, because you can live off the interest without ever having to go into your nest egg.
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I'm sorry, how am I an abusive asshole by holding Bitcoin, and telling everyone to fuck off when they say they want to ban it, censor it, regulate it, kill it, etc?
It's fuck you money because you can't do any of these things, no matter how hard you try.
Do you own property? The government can take it from you, or they can tax you to death for owning it.
Do you have bank accounts? The government can freeze your money first, ask questions later.
Do you own socks? Same shit.
I'm pretty sure Bitcoin is the ultimate form of fuck you money.
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5 Pages. Plenty of sane, reasonable questions by a few people to the bitcoin holders.
Yet, I don't see a single reply that makes sense, answer the question or dose not resort to immature swearing or the old "you don't know what you are talking about"...
I have tried to talk to so many bitcoin holders (bitcoin talk was like asking a question about Biden on Parler), I have tried to use it (it was litecoin but same thing), I have tried to read about it. I am still, after more years then I care to remember, waiting for the answer to one simple question.
---What does this bring that existing systems don't already do.---
BTW, hiding transactions from the government is not a valid answer. This is not a good thing!
Yet, I don't see a single reply that makes sense, answer the question or dose not resort to immature swearing or the old "you don't know what you are talking about"...
I have tried to talk to so many bitcoin holders (bitcoin talk was like asking a question about Biden on Parler), I have tried to use it (it was litecoin but same thing), I have tried to read about it. I am still, after more years then I care to remember, waiting for the answer to one simple question.
---What does this bring that existing systems don't already do.---
BTW, hiding transactions from the government is not a valid answer. This is not a good thing!
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The point I'm making is that supply of energy is not infinite. A hydro plant has fixed power output and preferably we want to spend them on actual beneficial use, be it running a laundry machine or keeping the lights on.
Meanwhile, proof of work (Bitcoin) mining's demands on energy is potentially infinite since it's just an endless competition, only capped by the price of energy. The higher the market cap, the higher the total amount of money (and hence energy) will be used on mining. When Bitcoin was cheaper, just excess power production from power plants were enough to satisfy the demand, but now that its price is getting higher and higher it enables people to just throw more and more resources into mining, meaning that it will start to gobble up power production and cause us to build more energy production than necessary (even "green" power production has environmental cost).
A somewhat loose analogy is the price of oil. When the price of oil is high enough, it produces enough incentives to start mining tar sands and all these expensive dirty sources of oil because there is enough money going around to support them.
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See my previous post. The answer to that, is also "Fuck you" I could explain in more detail, but that's the final answer anyway.
I could talk about sovereignty, how it's uncensorable, non fungible, limited supply, etc, etc. But in the end, the answer will always be, because it's "fuck you" money. And we don't need to justify it to anyone.
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[/quote]
Dr. have you heard of Google?
Your years long wait for answers is over![/quote]
Like I said - " I have tried to read about it."
This is a forum, and is used to have a conversation. Telling me about google is pointless.
Dr. have you heard of Google?
Your years long wait for answers is over![/quote]
Like I said - " I have tried to read about it."
This is a forum, and is used to have a conversation. Telling me about google is pointless.
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Hey, if you want to be an abusive asshole, feel free. You certainly haven't added one goddamn actual positive or reasoning, just blathering on about it.
Well, fuck you, too, dude. You're a blithering idiot if you think that you can escape governmental oversight, or that tax avoidance is some noble thing you're doing. If that's what you're doing -- tax avoidance -- you deserve a special kind of hell for being a freeloader.
So many people have asked so many times what BTC does that Paypal doesn't; none of them have provided an answer besides your "fuck you," which is both abrasive and inaccurate.
You're also a fool if you think bitcoin can't be regulated into obscurity, should that be a choice we make. Just ban exchanges. Send it all to Mt. Gox.
You are the reason cryptocurrency gets a shitty rep.
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Yeah... you know where it points me when i search? At crypto news sites hosted and funded by exchanges. There's no honest news broker. Everyone is interested in making things look GREAT for the newcomers. Gotta get that fresh blood.
Engagement in a discussion is kind of the point of forums, btw. Not "Google it." Everyone already knows to do that.
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53 of the Fortune 500 have issued dividends each year for the last 10 years.
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Actually, it's not.
You wouldn't be satisfied with any answer someone here might give you. Your earlier diatribe is evidence of that.
Google would actually be REALLY USEFUL for someone LIKE YOU to find a concise set of bullet points about the percieved value of bitcoin.
So do your own footwork, instead of making someone do it for you so you can shit all over their efforts after they put them forth.
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I don't have to deal with a financial institution.
Right now I'm paying US$250/year for my money to sit in a savings account.
(Yes, I have what is effectively a negative interest rate, for an account that supposedly pays me interest.)
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Oh, give me a fuck'en break.
Are you telling me you are unable to find a summary of bitcoin's supposed value proposition on the whole fucking internet?
Well, you have bigger problems than anyone can address in a forum discussion.
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I have done my best to present my thinking on the things I do know about and people just downvote and ignore it for the most part. It's interesting to me, so it doesn't concern me.
People have made up their minds I guess and don't want to think about it. That too bad because while I agree that BTC is pointless and sub-tulip level speculation with bonus environmental destruction layered on top, blockchain has some profound potential applications. On a site like Ars I would have assumed people would have figured out that bitcoin is not the only crypto currency and at least be interested in the technology.
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I should know better than to engage, but here's the thing: if you ever want to be able to exchange your BTC for legal goods & services, you're going to need to be able to do so in jurisdictions where BTC is legal. Otherwise, you're just trading MTG cards with each other. It may not matter to you what India does, but if the US, EU, Japan, China, etc. follow suit, your BTC is going to be worth a lot less.
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