Perpetual Defense Thread (Defense & non-commercial Space Nerds ITT)

[Scotttheking]

Speaking of air power doctrine: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/01/opini ... .html?_r=1

 

[Scotttheking]

The New York Times[/url]":99hnhmpy]Doubts persist among lawmakers and naval experts about the maneuverable and relatively small littoral combat ship, which is not designed to operate in a combat environment.

So it's a littoral combat ship, but it's not a literal combat ship?

The previous paragraph is a bit mystifying:

Mr. Panetta has said that by 2020, the United States will have 60 percent of its ships in the Pacific and 40 percent in the Atlantic, compared with the current 50-50 split. The Pentagon has not specified what kinds of ships or how many would make up the 60 percent, although Mr. Panetta has said they would include six aircraft carriers and a majority of the Navy’s cruisers, destroyers, submarines and littoral combat ships.

(Emphasis mine)
Isn't that basically all the classes of ships? The only ones it leaves out are the remaining Perry-class Frigates, various amphibious warfare ships, and the USS Constitution.

It's likely more being lazy or attempting to extrapolate, IMO.

Pentagon has said 60%, and specifically called out that it'll be 6 carriers. 60% is a majority, so one can assume that the majority of combat ships, aka the list above, will be stationed in the Pacific. The Pentagon has not reported the exact number of ships to be stationed in the Pacific vs. the Atlantic, so they simply call out the majority, and list the types of combat ships either assumed or listed by the Pentagon.

 

[Scotttheking]

Virginia class is designed with the assumption that the fuel will last as long as the boat:
Lazy citation: http://defense.about.com/od/Navy/a/Atta ... arines.htm
"These submarines have one nuclear reactor powering the sub and are designed to not need to be refueled throughout its lifetime."

 

[Scotttheking]

eXceLon[/url]":3e0072vp]

tinyMan[/url]":3e0072vp]A single .22 is enough to keep you out of a lot of ports and make visits from Customs Officers... interesting. I think that applies to all the First world countries and most of the others as well.

I forget where I saw it, but there was a recent photo that made the rounds on gun blogs showing anti-piracy security contractors throwing their AR-15 pattern rifles overboard before entering port. The reasoning was that it was too complicated and in some cases impossible to secure the necessary paperwork to bring the guns in port, and it was actually cheaper for them to throw the guns overboard and get new ones for the next trip.

.milfox's first link above references that. Awesome...

 

[Scotttheking]

qzak[/url]":1bsypqt9]

Alamout[/url]":1bsypqt9]

There may come a time when non-state actors can buy a hypersonic missile off the shelf of their local big-box store. When that starts to happen, we might have a big problem. But I don't think it's on the horizon.

http://www.defenddemocracy.org/media-hit/russian-yakhont-missiles-in-hezbollahs-hands/

US officials, according to the Journal, believe “as many as 12 anti-ship guide-missiles systems may now be in Hezbollah’s possession inside Syria.” These are Russian-made SS-N-26 Yakhont missiles, which use a ramjet engine to travel over 75 miles at more than twice the speed of sound. When launched, the missile skims above the waves to avoid detection, guided by a seeker that is designed to resist countermeasures. It is one of the most advanced anti-ship missiles in the world (the U.S. does not have a long range supersonic anti-ship missile like this) and its sale to Syria indicates how important Assad’s survival is to Vladimir Putin. - See more at: http://www.defenddemocracy.org/media-hi ... OVLj2.dpuf

Yea, they aren't technically hypersonic. But they're supersonic and superdangerous.

With regard to the new vulnerability and consequently decreased usefulness of the supercarrier, one of the problems the US has is that the Navy is congressionally mandated to maintain an 11-carrier fleet (they had to get a wavier to retire the last carrier until the Ford is ready). It certainly seems backwards that congress is telling the admirals what forces they need rather than the other way around. Given the expense of these vessels, could this be revised?

One possible way around this is simply to realize that we have 19 carriers already if you count Wasp and America classes. Any other country in the world would count those as carriers too, except perhaps Japan for political reasons. Though I guess angering Congress when they control your budget isn't a good idea.

Congress has a long history of meddling in weapons programs, telling the Pentagon what they will buy even as the Pentagon says they don't want said systems. Yay politics.

...

For a humanitarian carrier, that would seem useful to fall under USAID's purview, but since we don't have regularly occurring disasters, where would the ships be when not in use, who would train on them to maintain effectiveness, etc.? As far as ship class, something like the LHDs would make more sense than the supercarrier. Helicopters and hovercraft would be far more useful in delivering supplies, and the larger medical bays, cargo transport, etc. are extremely useful.

 

[Scotttheking]

9600man[/url]":2m3p68zh]

Barmaglot[/url]":2m3p68zh]

9600man[/url]":2m3p68zh]
Countries in Western Europe recovered the fastest. Germany apparently faster than the UK, but then again Germans were bombing the shit out of UK during WWII.

Ummm, what bombing the Germans managed to inflict on UK cities was nothing in comparison to what they they got in return. By '44, Bomber Command and USAAF were basically erasing German cities on a weekly basis.

I was wondering about that actually: If the allies were bombing cities in Germany with impunity as opposed to just bombing military targets.

Most likely somewhere in between. Precision bombing as we are used to wasn't around then. The Norden bombsight was the in use technology, and while it helped, many bombs still missed their targets. When there are military facilities, or suspected ones, all over the city...you can guess what happened.

 

[Scotttheking]

Washington post article on the alleged burying of a report on dod inefficiencies. https://www.washingtonpost.com/investig ... story.html
It will be interesting to see if this gets any traction.

 

[Scotttheking]

North Korea thread: viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1381153

 

[Scotttheking]

Guardians, like in the Handmaid’s Tale? Hey, it was a Pence announcement!

 

[Scotttheking]

Am I crazy, or does that KC look a whole lot like a 737, with a bigger tail fin?

767.

 

[Scotttheking]

I saw an article today about the Amazon JEDI lawsuit being tossed since the program was canceled

I'm guessing the DoD decided starting over from scratch was probably faster than litigating it for years

Multi cloud is a much better approach, using kubernetes as the abstraction layer.

 

[Scotttheking]

The reality is, there's not a situation where a human can do better than a computer for what we use military planes for (in the very new future), even if they are completely cut off from communications. Losing dozens of autonomous planes would be embarrassing, if anyone even notices. Losing dozens of manned planes would cause a huge amount of public outcry. There's not likely to be another generation of manned fighter aircraft that actually goes into service manned. Depending on how it all shakes out the next gen might be designed with a pilot optional, but it won't go into service that way. More likely we'll mess around with the F-35 and the upgraded older airframes for another 10-20 years and by that time autonomous aircraft will be the obvious way forward to everyone.

As far as flying and fighting in the planes? Yes, I completely agree - it's a geometry problem that even relatively simple AI will be very good at solving. Much easier than full self-driving in the civilian market. I can, however, see the need to perhaps have one human pilot as a forward director for a drone swarm, depending on the ECM threat. Point-to-point short range com links would be far harder to disrupt. As cool as it is to have your C&C directing drones and picking out targets in Syria from a trailer in Kansas I'd think that chain would be more susceptible to disruption.

Forgive my ignorance in regards to flying stuff but as a wild thought couldn't you use AWACS planes for directing the swarm? Close enough that it'd be hard to disrupt comms but far enough away to be out of immediate danger?

In a non permissive environment awacs planes are likely going to die.

 

[Scotttheking]

Tanker aircraft don't only refuel fighters. As long as correct receptacle exist drone tankers can refuel E7 AEW. I don't know if P8A patrol aircraft have the correct plumbing, but if it exists the tanker should be able to do it eventually.
Not to mention eventually drone aircrafts will be equipped for mid air refueling. And helicopters, C 130 etc.

P8 https://www.jba.af.mil/News/Article/116 ... g-mission/

 

[Scotttheking]

I've seen various figures about the value of the deal, like 30 or 40 billion Euros.

Is that a lot over the span of the deal, well over a decade?

That’s quite a bit of money for the French defense sector.

 

[Scotttheking]

They have a bunch of planes now that look an awful lot like knockoffs of US warplanes.
It's both flattering and troubling for the Pentagon.

Hey, lockheed open sourced their designs (and whoever else didn’t work to secure their systems)

 

[Scotttheking]

They have a bunch of planes now that look an awful lot like knockoffs of US warplanes.
It's both flattering and troubling for the Pentagon.

Their rocket plans look a hell of a lot like space X.


China have been stealing IP for 2 decades.

Isn't every rocket looks like a cylinder with a conical nose and nozzles on the bottom? How is that copying? Their plan for the future iterations? There are world difference between planning and execution.

Many rocket companies aren't even trying for a reuse strategy. Don't count them out on copying and reimplementing the spacex strategy.

 

[Scotttheking]

Some of this may amount to hyperbole to help feed the American war machine, but the guy did resign over it.

Call me cynical but did he resign at the age of 30 or 65? I'm guessing closer to 65 in which this him getting things off his chest before collecting his gold watch and hitting the golf course.

I believe he’s 37. He’s not getting a gold watch, that’s for sure.

Yeah, Nic burned out and is frustrated, imo. Very nice guy, gonna miss him!

 

[Scotttheking]

My tax dollars not being spent on a resolution higher than 360p, apparently.

These are quality milspec pixels, so of course they are very expensive. 360p already cost a dozen school lunch programs, don't ask what the humanitarian price of 4k would be.

Reminds me of when I worked with ruggedized Barco touchscreens. Those were heavy and expensive!

 

[Scotttheking]

So…a light tank?

 

[Scotttheking]

Yep, tbd. Articles are calling it a light tank, ex.: https://www.defensenews.com/land/20...oduction-contract-for-light-tank-this-summer/

 

[Scotttheking]

Plenty of stuff uses very modern high end computers. Specialty chips in weapons systems are different.

 

[Scotttheking]

Only

Autonomous attack drones that pick their targets aren't a thing yet, and people working in the field tell me they're a long time in the future. There's just too much risk of friendly fire and other sorts of collateral damage.

Depending on its comms capabilities, a remotely piloted UUV is just as dangerous to shipping. You're saving a lot of weight, space and money simply by not needing crew accomodations & life support.
With satcomm, the sub's antenna only needs to be above water for seconds to get the attack command.

Only if you let ethical considerations get in the way. A remotely lurking vehicle can take a command and target an acoustic signal with the tech we have today. Doing it well is a separate question.

 

[Scotttheking]

I don't know about the US Navy, but the Royal Navy has had rather bad experiences with trying to life-extend its older submarines. HMS Vanguard's second refuelling and major overhaul took 7 years. HMS Talent took more than 12 months of refit to get just 12 months life extension (during which she didn't put to sea), before being considered no longer economical to repair and operate. HMS Triumph might do a bit better, but not to the extent of providing another 10-15 years of service.

plan for US is not to refuel: https://www.nationaldefensemagazine...lants-on-new-submarines-may-last-40plus-years

 

[Scotttheking]

Plan is to be new VA subs if I read right.
Nevermind, doesn't explicitly say new. I assumed based on the cost.

 

[Scotttheking]

Wouldn't surprise me if they use a shared fire control system.

 

[Scotttheking]

Are you talking about fire control system as in "press this red button to eject torpedo" or fire control system as in generating firing solutions? For the former, probably. For the second, I think US Navy is still comparing computer generated firing solution against manually calculated firing solution. I read that is a procedure that some Navies skip that results in firing in the wrong direction during exercises. I don't know what the doctrine is for RAN or RN, so the second one might not be a shared procedure.

I should have said tactical control, was thinking something like this: https://gdmissionsystems.com/-/medi...DF/tactical-control-system-tcs-datasheet.ashx

 

[Scotttheking]

And by volume, how much more air?

Don't you mean how many chairs

 

[Scotttheking]

Ha. Not classified

https://news.lockheedmartin.com/202...ac-3-mse-integration-with-aegis-weapon-system

 

[Scotttheking]

airborne SSGNs

 

[Scotttheking]

Oh sorry, I just saw the Maya-class and thought "Holy hell, that's a fat boat".
I don't think it's really worth commenting on anything that's not had a single sheet of steel laid down for it. History has a lot of oversized boats, and a lot of them don't leave the drawing board intact.

There’s some logic for an island nation to build what is basically a mobile missile platform that happens to be cruiser sized, but 2 of them are weird. I’d build 10 smaller semi autonomous and linked ones where we are in tech. Basically a sea implementation of the battlefield communication systems the us is working towards.

 

[Scotttheking]

$5k is not a lot to spend for a stealthy cruise missile with a 3kg airburst frag warhead. (And those might be Australian dollars.)

Yup, video says Australian dollars

 

[Scotttheking]

Anyone recall the Rheinmetall Skynex anti drone demo?

I want to see a similar demo with a battalion sized setup, only with 20,000 drones in a coordinated attack. Say, 20% anti armor FPV, 30% anti personnel FPV, 30% higher speed anti armor, 20% higher speed anti personnel.
Maybe a different variant with cluster bomblet + anti armor.

 

[Scotttheking]

Eh, it’s Navy catering to it’s pilots. See the problem is Hangfire, you were a ground pounder and not Air Arm.

My personal favorite was one of the laterDie Hards that had the F-35B VTOL mode strafing around inside an highway interchange

Haha. There’s a reason it is VTOL, not VTAL, people.

also, I’ve seen some very nice rooms. I assume the Americans didn’t want Hangfire to feel bad so they dug out the old retired storage room for him.

edit: or they know you don’t ever clean your boots

 

[Scotttheking]

What's the difference between a fighter pilot and a jet engine? Well the jet engine stops whining when you shut down the plane.

I once worked for a naval aviator and will vouch for this statement.

 

[Scotttheking]

oh god yes...



So what you do? Start up a firm and then offer the contracts for empty shells to the French, Germans, Brits and Ukrainians instead. GD and co can't say shit then

Bonus, Hangfire can fill them!

 

[Scotttheking]

good luck in getting any order slots for the right steel with the steel manufacturers.

That is what the defense production act is for…

 

[Scotttheking]

I can see GD being really graceful in sharing their slots... AHAHAHAHAHAHA

I defer to you. You are more in tune with production quantities of the right steel types than I am.

 

[Scotttheking]

Imagine the time when babies are stupidly greedy about stuff, you know the age, and when they hate sharing with people. Now fix that attitude and wait 50 years and add an MBA, hey presto, you now have an off the shelf GD VP.

I get the impression you have feelings about GD, good sir…

 

[Scotttheking]

Are these aircraft carriers getting "life of the ship" nuclear plants like the new subs?

Unfortunately, I don't have time to Perun today.

No iirc.

 

[Scotttheking]

Does the USN often introduce completely new names? Not that I'm suggesting the gentleman in question doesn't deserve the honour, but in the Royal Navy, there are so many names, with storied history and battle honours, that there have only been 2 new names (that I've been able to find, I may of course have missed some) on major warships, since 1945 (Artful and Ocelot)

It isn’t a completely new name. Destroyer escort in 50s was named that as well. However, we have a lot less ships now.