My confusing, 10-day journey to getting a UWP game to work on Windows 10

Four games, 15 months, Windows 10, and a zoo of confusing crashes later...

Read the whole story

 

[KeyboardWeeb]

I use MSI Afterburner solely to control my GPU fan. I don't have any overclocks enabled at all. I'd hate to have to shut it off for a game, since that's kinda when I need my GPU fan to intelligently ramp up...which it doesn't seem to do if Afterburner isn't running. :/

 

[Katana314]

I'm curious how much of these problems are caused by the design goal of protecting the security of the app store. They seem to have requirements that an app must always phone home to get verified, cannot have its functionality modified, cannot run on a modified copy of Windows, etc. If they had simply had design goals like "Make sure the user gets their game, and maybe try to do bare minimum verification of the purchase" then I get the sense they wouldn't have nearly as many issues.

At the very least, I'm not worried about Microsoft trying to push UWP further. We don't need to be "afraid of" it - it's just not sellable to most consumers as long as it's completely broken and unusable. This ties in to all those paranoid thoughts people have had that "One day Microsoft will flip a switch and force people to only run UWP apps". They might be able to do that...in like ten thousand years when they have this shit figured out and UWP actually solves a few customer needs without generating incredibly cryptic error codes. And if they manage it, I'll be fine with it.

 

[chriskrum]

Are you fracking kidding me!!?? Of course you have to turn off extra software, especially graphics overlays, before you complain about something being horribly broken!

Why?

A properly-written software ecosystem doesn't care what's running or not. I don't have to turn off VLC to run Chrome.

If Afterburner (or the statistics package) is doing something it shouldn't and it causing crashes then it shouldn't have access to that functionality.

Nonsense.

One of the praiseworthy aspects of Windows is that it's a fairly open system. You can choose to write and/or run monitoring software that hooks in to fairly basic low level functions to get the data you want. With that freedom comes the responsibility to understand what that software really does and why, especially if you choose to run other similar apps simultaneously, lead to erratic behavior.

It's ironic that one of the biggest knocks against UWP by the tech savvy is that it's specifically trying to wall a part of the OS off from all of exactly the sort of tinkering that causes many of the problems you're complaining about.

The biggest issue with UWP is that it's Frankensteined into non-UWP systems and they all want access to the same resources. That's a guarantee for conflicts.

 

[kehcorpz]

I used to have issues with UWP on earlier versions of windows 10. Eventually the last version I did a reset of the OS from the settings area and it has been perfect since. I also like using the w32 UWP wrapped apps from the store like spotify, itunes and f.lux. Just easier to deal with them and updates are so simple.

I have only played a few purchased UWP games. The majority have been free to play and haven't come across issues yet.

I do recommend a reset of the OS, especially if you upgraded from windows 7 or an earlier one. Or ran anything before April update. That's windows for you.

 

[Voldenuit]

The point here is that Microsoft chose to obscure any sort of error reporting, making troubleshooting far more difficult.

A normal user wouldn't be running things like Afterburner in the first place.

LOL, that might be reasonable if it wasn't included on the driver CD provided by the card manufacturer.

The point still stands - Microsoft chose to make troubleshooting more difficult than it had to be.

Me: "Everyone should be using Afterburner."

People: "But what about UWP games that it breaks?"

Me: "Well, nobody should be using UWP games."

You should edit this to "No one should be using Afterburner." It'll gremlin your system.

Ditto for all the other utility programs developers are wont to bundle (shovel) with their graphic cards, sound cards, streamer cards, cameras, mics, etc. etc. And woe to anyone who ends up with multiples of them on their system.

Using Afterburner and XTU to undervolt my gaming laptop's CPU and GPU. The noise and heat benefits are palpable - GPU temps under 60C when playing less demanding 3D games, even at 120 fps, and 70C with more demanding games/synthetic stress tests. This, on a 1080 Max-Q (and yeah, I was surprised myself that even a Max-Q benefitted from some extra undervolting).

 

[DoktoroKiu]

You really should mention that you're talking about pre-release versions of games on a non-standard system at the top of the article. I had absolutely zero issues with the previous horizons game on my PC, but I admit I don't stress my rig to the edge. Also, some background apps have caused issues with other game platforms in recent history, so it's not a Microsoft-specific problem (Destiny 2).

I would say that a highly modded setup is not the target audience for UWP apps. That being said, the fact that there is no alternative path for this kind of user is a big miss for Microsoft. But the vast majority of their target users will likely not see the problems you did.

This is one of the reasons I lean toward using the most standard setup on PC games, and prefer consoles for most AAA games. I want to play a game and not have to worry about many technical details (I do that enough at work).

 

[Grandim]

I'm not familiar with UWP but maybe it tombstone uninstalled content for a few minutes? Thats the only reason I could think off that waiting with the computer powered off could help.

 

[killerhurtalot]

Frankly, I don't know what you all are doing to your PCs to make the Windows Store so unreliable.

"Works for me" is never a good argument given the diversity of the PC ecosystem. With UWP, Microsoft had the opportunity to build a more reliable and robust platform from scratch. Yet people are still having all sorts of issues with it. At this point, the chances I'll be buying a UWP game are about as good as me buying a GFWL one.

"Doesn't work for me" is just as bad.

To be clear, I have had problems installing things from the Windows Store before. They were all solved by running wsreset.exe. But the benefits have far outweighed the issues. Having a single software repository that remembers what I purchase, downloads things in a single click, keeps everything up to date automatically, uninstalls everything cleanly, built directly into the OS is absolutely beneficial.

The point isn't whether it works for you or not. It's that Microsoft had the chance to apply the lessons learned from their own (and others) experience to produce something more reliable and easier to troubleshoot than the competition. Instead, it appears they did the opposite.

Except in this case, the crash was caused by a 3rd party application that's been shown to crash numerous other games as well.

TLDR: Get rid of your software that tries to hook executables to monitor performance. It causes issues with more than just UWP apps.

How is a normal user supposed to discover this? From the article:

When standard Windows executables fail to turn over but don't crash as a result of, say, a power surge or other hardware-specific failure, error codes and crash notices are common—and they're often easily exposed by crash logs. UWP apps keep that kind of information under wraps

The point here is that Microsoft chose to obscure any sort of error reporting, making troubleshooting far more difficult.

Normal user probably isn't using afterburner either.

 

[just6979]

No, it definitely isn't. Developers, and especially developers making application platforms, have a strong responsibility to ensure that "works for me" is as universal for their product as possible. "Doesn't work for me", and especially "doesn't work for me and it took me a week to figure out why", generally indicates a failure on the part of the developer.

And the first thing the developer's support team should have asked is "Do you have any OSD or OC or similar software running? Yes? Then turn it off, you idiot."

 

[cmacd]

UWP is one of those good ideas with terrible implementation. Standardizing stuff among many environments would be awesome but once you realize it locks you into a broken ecosystem and kills the possibility of fiddling with the thing (ie: modding) it doesn't look so good. I personally avoid UWP.

I don't even care about the modding side, honestly...it's a drawback, but I see UWP for what it is, which is "run the Xbox version on your PC." That comes with the implied limitations, as well. As long as you realize you aren't buying "the PC version of Forza" but instead are "playing the Xbox version on your PC, potentially with better hardware" then I think UWP works out.

At least when it works.

As this article makes clear, the real issue is that when it doesn't work you definitely enter nightmare mode.

 

[killerhurtalot]

I use MSI Afterburner solely to control my GPU fan. I don't have any overclocks enabled at all. I'd hate to have to shut it off for a game, since that's kinda when I need my GPU fan to intelligently ramp up...which it doesn't seem to do if Afterburner isn't running. :/

Use any of the other fan control software? It's not like afterburner is the only one (or even the best)

It's gotten kind of bloated over the years...

 

[DarkSyd]

Afterburner comes bundled with Rivatuner Statistics Server, which hooks executables for its on screen display, which is notorious for crashing all kinds of games, not just UWP games.

Exactly. This may well be another case of Microsoft getting a bad rep due to the crappiness of other vendors.

Obviously, from the fact that the UWP game worked with afterburner disabled during launch, UWP must protect against virus and cheaters by refusing to be hooked by other apps. Given this, the lack of feedback is mostly understandable: you don't want to help them.

It used to be that Windows would crash due to bad drivers and software calling undocumented API or calling documented API wrong but lucking into not causing ill harm until an OS patch made it not work anymore. Windows had a bad rep due to all the shoddy softwares people ran.

Still, not getting crash dumps for UWP truly hinders diagnostics.

Well, when I finally gave up on trying to get FH3 to run reliably, there was a 60+ page thread on the Forza forum about the problem. If somebody knew afterburner was a problem, would have been nice for *anybody* to mention that.

Funny thing...MS support actually *had* me install afterburner to underclock my GPU...they told me the factory OC was the culprit. We eventually gave up on trying to get it running, they offered me a refund, which I accepted. It was never actually refunded though, and the game was still in my library. Picked up a Xbox One S and have been playing it happily since.

So, yay, I guess? I solved the problem by giving MS an additional $300.

 

[halars]

In particular, you can't scroll through Windows Explorer folders (even "hidden" ones) and dig up installed UWP files, let alone see where they're installed or exactly which files and folders demand the most space on your hard drive.

You actually can, technically, but the folders are always deliberately buried and their names are basically gobbledygook (I think they're hashes).

I think they are just unique identifiers (of the uwp application), because they are the same between multiple versions and -machines, at least in my experience.

 

[UnnDunn]

Is this the monthly "complain about UWP" thread? Which will of course dovetail into the inevitable "complain about Windows 10" thread?

Frankly, I don't know what you all are doing to your PCs to make the Windows Store so unreliable.

You know the old saying, if everyone you run into can't use the windows store, you're the asshole?

Call me whatever you want, I can still download and run FH4 on my PC with no problems.

 

[chriskrum]

I'm pretty baffled by this article. I'm far from being a computer expert. I'm no where near being a tech journalist. I'm a hobbyist and a gamer. Granted, my first game machine was a 386 which familiarized me with the arcane magic of memory managers and the like so my approach to crashes with new games is fairly methodical.

But this article is a fairly WTF?

Sam was running Afterburner the entire time.

The most basic trouble shooting step is to turn off (and not even start) background processes, especially those that hook into low level systems. Plus, any half-hearted attempt at searching for crash causes on the internet would have pointed one quickly to OSD utilities (and not just in the UWP enviroment).

I have to admit that this article shakes my faith a bit in Sam's professional competence.

 

[Voldenuit]

You really should mention that you're talking about pre-release versions of games on a non-standard system at the top of the article. I had absolutely zero issues with the previous horizons game on my PC, but I admit I don't stress my rig to the edge. Also, some background apps have caused issues with other game platforms in recent history, so it's not a Microsoft-specific problem (Destiny 2).

I would say that a highly modded setup is not the target audience for UWP apps. That being said, the fact that there is no alternative path for this kind of user is a big miss for Microsoft. But the vast majority of their target users will likely not see the problems you did.

This is one of the reasons I lean toward using the most standard setup on PC games, and prefer consoles for most AAA games. I want to play a game and not have to worry about many technical details (I do that enough at work).

What constitutes a "non-normal" system? Afterburner? PrecisionX? Procmon? Procexp? PRTG? OBS? Discord? What about OEM-preinstalled performance monitoring tools, like ROG Center, or msi Genie, or Alienware Command Center?

If a game is not compatible with a given application, it should fail gracefully in a manner that keeps both applications running. To bring up your Destiny 2 example, it is incompatible with OBS capture in fullscreen (but supports it in borderless windowed), overlays from Discord and Fraps, and even the Windows Game Bar. But having any of those apps running does not crash the game, and it doesn't even stop the other functions of said apps from working (I would be lost without Discord in Destiny 2).

If the intent of UWP was to sandbox applications, it's a blatant failure of design to have incompatible apps crash or inhibit the functioning (not necessarily functionality) of the apps involved. Instead, it turns out to be just another jumble of wires that MS shoved into their preexisting jumble of wires, and end users suffer for it.

 

[Strategos777]

This is a great example of EVERYTHING that is wrong with Microsoft's implementation of DRM. It's like the Xbox 360. Every time you get a new console you must transfer the licenses, then reloaded EVERY piece of DLC you EVER purchased to get them back (try re-downloading 50 songs in Rock Band...not fun!).

Past purchases may or may not work on new hardware. Then there's authentication and payment errors (you might not be able to logon or download purchases if your credit card info is out of date). Then there's how my Xbox username and password doesn't match my business Microsoft username and password and there's no way to transfer one to the other (I can't change the email address because that address is already an account. I can't delete either email address because then I'll either lose my Xbox Account with thousands of purchases or my business email, and neither option is acceptable).

At this point you could ask why I would use Xbox at all? And the answer would be backward compatibility with console exclusives and re-rendering old games in higher resolution (how else you gonna play SSX3 and Tomb Raider Legend on a modern console?)

Oh, and ReCore has been thoroughly worked over to make it a fantastic game. Stop bashing it. More people need to play that game, especially now that it's dirt cheap.

 

[jds2582]

This all ended with Microsoft throwing its hands in the air and asking that I reinstall that year's Windows Creators Update, which—lo and behold—did the trick

This has been a constant problem with Windows 10 since the very beginning:

-- Clean install.
-- Programs A and B work just fine, but Program C won't install, or, installs but won't run properly.
-- Wipe and clean install again.
-- Program C now installs and runs just fine, but Program D won't install, or, installs but won't run properly.
-- Lather, Rinse, Repeat ..... until finally after 4 or 5 attempts everything is running (sort of) smoothly.

Another reason why I still run Windows 7 on my main computer.

The error code in question . . . . ."0x80070003," failed to narrow down any source for the error

It is beyond absurd that Microsoft still refuses to provide clear error messages that actually explain what is wrong.

It is unusual for me to post anything in forum nowadays but I can drop some knowledge here. Microsoft error codes are separated into two hexadecimal words typically. 8007 is windows update and I think Microsoft scripting host but I could be wrong on that last one. 0003 is path not found. Google "msdn error codes" for a list of windows update error codes.

My guess is that UWP uses windows update to install and update games and because they are trying to hide that damn things instead of using simple names like the rest of the world does there was a mismatch between where windows update thinks the game is supposed to go and the actual directory the game belongs in or it is failing to create the directory in the first place. God help you if it is an ACL issue. Permissions problems are a nightmare to track down and usually turn into a fix one issue and discover two more situation. Used to know someone who called them permissions hydras. Other users have posted how to use procmon to track down the issue. Good luck!

 

[biggerx]

That's a bummer. I bought the standalone version on the Windows store. I haven't had any major issues yet, minus one crash. Hopefully they sort these issues out soon.

 

[Strategos777]

I'm pretty baffled by this article. I'm far from being a computer expert. I'm no where near being a tech journalist. I'm a hobbyist and a gamer. Granted, my first game machine was a 386 which familiarized me with the arcane magic of memory managers and the like so my approach to crashes with new games is fairly methodical.

But this article is a fairly WTF?

Sam was running Afterburner the entire time.

The most basic trouble shooting step is to turn off (and not even start) background processes, especially those that hook into low level systems. Plus, any half-hearted attempt at searching for crash causes on the internet would have pointed one quickly to OSD utilities (and not just in the UWP enviroment).

I have to admit that this article shakes my faith a bit in Sam's professional competence.

Indeed the "disable everything" step seemed to be missing from the troubleshooting steps.

I can say though, that troubleshooting games on PC is an absolute nightmare. I once was unable to play Xcom:Enemy Unknown without uninstalling 50 (yes 50!!!!!) .NET updates, and uninstalling the graphics card driver so only Microsoft's driver was used. Even then the game still had frequent hard crashes which were only fixed when you installed the expansion (I am seriously angry at Firaxis for putting all their bug patches into an expansion ONLY).

I do play computer games, but only casually. Windows 10 is far, far better about game stability and bugs thanks to unified forced updates (if devs don't update their games, they break for EVERYONE), but I was able to buy an Xbox One S for $40 and avoid all of this nonsense, and I'm happier for it.

 

[Voldenuit]

I'm pretty baffled by this article. I'm far from being a computer expert. I'm no where near being a tech journalist. I'm a hobbyist and a gamer. Granted, my first game machine was a 386 which familiarized me with the arcane magic of memory managers and the like so my approach to crashes with new games is fairly methodical.

But this article is a fairly WTF?

Sam was running Afterburner the entire time.

The most basic trouble shooting step is to turn off (and not even start) background processes, especially those that hook into low level systems. Plus, any half-hearted attempt at searching for crash causes on the internet would have pointed one quickly to OSD utilities (and not just in the UWP enviroment).

I have to admit that this article shakes my faith a bit in Sam's professional competence.

If it was so simple to fix, why didn't Microsoft and the Forza team find the solution immediately?

The point is that UWP's error reporting is poor, its problem mitigation solutions are limited, and for a sandbox system that's supposed to separate and protect apps from each other, it doesn't even do its damned job.

Many people run low level programs all the time, for programming, debugging, content creation, and yes, recreation. Windows Store and UWP app developers need to accommodate users, not the other way around.

 

[gamer1000k]

I've had similar issues with the MS Store. Thankfully not the app crashes (although getting the Xbox achievements and multiplayer working in FH3 was a nightmare with fighting with the Teredo Tunneling Adapter), but definitely with the download issues. The pause download feature that works perfectly in every other app store is completely broken and actually corrupts the download so it has to be restarted from the beginning (but it won't tell you that until later when it runs into an error).

My home internet is slow enough that with the lack of bandwidth controls for the windows store it's very difficult to find a large enough block of time to download some of the newer games in one sitting (even overnight isn't enough) without locking everyone else in the house out of using the internet.

It's baffling to me how poorly this whole system has been implemented given how many other app stores from much smaller software companies just work without these kinds of issues.

 

[UnnDunn]

Many people run low level programs all the time, for programming, debugging, content creation, and yes, recreation. Windows Store and UWP app developers need to accommodate users, not the other way around.

Why? Because they complain?

Microsoft isn't going to bend over backwards to satisfy a handful of loudmouths complaining that they can't run whatever BS overlay tool they're using.

 

[BulkyZ]

UWP iTunes on the other hand, takes a good 5 minutes to even launch on my SSD. Once it finally does, I'm treated to the little blue circle for another ten. Scrapped it and went back to x64 version. It launches in seconds.

That really sounds like it's phoning home every time you launch it to see if there is an update.

 

[Strategos777]

Afterburner comes bundled with Rivatuner Statistics Server, which hooks executables for its on screen display, which is notorious for crashing all kinds of games, not just UWP games.

Exactly. This may well be another case of Microsoft getting a bad rep due to the crappiness of other vendors.

Obviously, from the fact that the UWP game worked with afterburner disabled during launch, UWP must protect against virus and cheaters by refusing to be hooked by other apps. Given this, the lack of feedback is mostly understandable: you don't want to help them.

It used to be that Windows would crash due to bad drivers and software calling undocumented API or calling documented API wrong but lucking into not causing ill harm until an OS patch made it not work anymore. Windows had a bad rep due to all the shoddy softwares people ran.

Still, not getting crash dumps for UWP truly hinders diagnostics.

Well, when I finally gave up on trying to get FH3 to run reliably, there was a 60+ page thread on the Forza forum about the problem. If somebody knew afterburner was a problem, would have been nice for *anybody* to mention that.

Funny thing...MS support actually *had* me install afterburner to underclock my GPU...they told me the factory OC was the culprit. We eventually gave up on trying to get it running, they offered me a refund, which I accepted. It was never actually refunded though, and the game was still in my library. Picked up a Xbox One S and have been playing it happily since.

So, yay, I guess? I solved the problem by giving MS an additional $300.

That's too bad. I got an Xbox One S for $40, which is why I finally pulled the trigger on the purchase. Reading the article and comments though, I'm kind of glad I didn't try to get the Windows version of the Forza Horizon games.

Part of my reason was that the PC version is far more expensive than the console version. Supply and demand I guess.

 

[PrecedentPowers]

I had this EXACT issue with Forza Horizon 3. It would regularly stop working, crashing after the splash screen. Did the same steps, wsreset.exe rarely worked and I would regularly have to uninstall and reinstall. Got the exact same "Access Control Corrupted" messages too.

Haven't had any issues with FH4 yet, fingers crossed.

 

[chriskrum]

I'm pretty baffled by this article. I'm far from being a computer expert. I'm no where near being a tech journalist. I'm a hobbyist and a gamer. Granted, my first game machine was a 386 which familiarized me with the arcane magic of memory managers and the like so my approach to crashes with new games is fairly methodical.

But this article is a fairly WTF?

Sam was running Afterburner the entire time.

The most basic trouble shooting step is to turn off (and not even start) background processes, especially those that hook into low level systems. Plus, any half-hearted attempt at searching for crash causes on the internet would have pointed one quickly to OSD utilities (and not just in the UWP enviroment).

I have to admit that this article shakes my faith a bit in Sam's professional competence.

If it was so simple to fix, why didn't Microsoft and the Forza team find the solution immediately?

The point is that UWP's error reporting is poor, its problem mitigation solutions are limited, and for a sandbox system that's supposed to separate and protect apps from each other, it doesn't even do its damned job.

Many people run low level programs all the time, for programming, debugging, content creation, and yes, recreation. Windows Store and UWP app developers need to accommodate users, not the other way around.

I'd say because no one provide a comprehensive list of all the garbage they were running in the background.

More to the point:

1. Did you try turning it on and off?
2. Disable all background and start-up programs.
3....

I think the fact that so many believe that everything should run flawlessly with everything they want running in the background harmoniously indicates just how far thins have actually come.

The expectation though is a fundamental misunderstanding about their systems though.

 

[nom3ramy]

@arstechnica staff -- you know I think the only thing more annoying than the ads is your new "subscription" pop-up that inevitably appears as I'm clicking the mouse to view the comments.

I can't count how many times I've accidentally clicked the subscribe thing because it loaded a millisecond before I clicked "read comments"

Sorry for the off-topic rant.

My objection was the horrible flashiness of it, incompatible with the normal page format, distracting from an attempt to read the main text.

Fortunately, Ad Block Plus has a "block element" choice, so it went away permanently with one click.

(I do still have the legacy "Element Hiding Helper" for ABP, so I'm not sure if the feature was later added to the base application.)

 

[Voldenuit]

Many people run low level programs all the time, for programming, debugging, content creation, and yes, recreation. Windows Store and UWP app developers need to accommodate users, not the other way around.

Why? Because they complain?

Microsoft isn't going to bend over backwards to satisfy a handful of loudmouths complaining that they can't run whatever BS overlay tool they're using.

Because users are the customer and not the product?

Even Microsoft and Turn10 understand this - that's why they tried to fix Sam's problem instead of telling him to get lost.

I'm saying that Microsoft could have saved themselves and their affiliated developers a lot of trouble if they had made UWP more robust and less obtuse.

In my experience, not a single Steam game I've played has ever complained or crashed because I was using Afterburner (I'm not saying they don't crash for other reasons, software is complex. But I've never had to disable Afterburner to get my games to run...yet).

 

[killerhurtalot]

This is a great example of EVERYTHING that is wrong with Microsoft's implementation of DRM. It's like the Xbox 360. Every time you get a new console you must transfer the licenses, then reloaded EVERY piece of DLC you EVER purchased to get them back (try re-downloading 50 songs in Rock Band...not fun!).

Past purchases may or may not work on new hardware. Then there's authentication and payment errors (you might not be able to logon or download purchases if your credit card info is out of date). Then there's how my Xbox username and password doesn't match my business Microsoft username and password and there's no way to transfer one to the other (I can't change the email address because that address is already an account. I can't delete either email address because then I'll either lose my Xbox Account with thousands of purchases or my business email, and neither option is acceptable).

At this point you could ask why I would use Xbox at all? And the answer would be backward compatibility with console exclusives and re-rendering old games in higher resolution (how else you gonna play SSX3 and Tomb Raider Legend on a modern console?)

Oh, and ReCore has been thoroughly worked over to make it a fantastic game. Stop bashing it. More people need to play that game, especially now that it's dirt cheap.

What are you smoking.

The licenses are tied to your ACCOUNT AND CONSOLE since forever on Xbox. You can log into any other console, go into the store, and download whatever game you had. The other users just didn't have access to it until you transferred the licenses to the specific console (which took about 5 minutes at the most)

With the xbox one, you can literally go into the game DLCs under the game itself and just download all purchased DLCs...

 

[Jim Z]

The point here is that Microsoft chose to obscure any sort of error reporting, making troubleshooting far more difficult.

A normal user wouldn't be running things like Afterburner in the first place.

LOL, that might be reasonable if it wasn't included on the driver CD provided by the card manufacturer.

The point still stands - Microsoft chose to make troubleshooting more difficult than it had to be.

if you set your house on fire, is the fire department guilty of arson because they couldn't put it out quickly enough?

 

[grommit!]

How is a normal user supposed to discover this? From the article:

When standard Windows executables fail to turn over but don't crash as a result of, say, a power surge or other hardware-specific failure, error codes and crash notices are common—and they're often easily exposed by crash logs. UWP apps keep that kind of information under wraps

The point here is that Microsoft chose to obscure any sort of error reporting, making troubleshooting far more difficult.

Normal user probably isn't using afterburner either.

A normal user is going to install whatever the manufacturer tells them to. In MSI's case, afterburner is prominently mentioned on their site, and on the CD that comes with the card.

Regardless, the point isn't what specific tools are causing a problem - it's that UWP makes troubleshooting more difficult in the interests of DRM.

if you set your house on fire, is the fire department guilty of arson because they couldn't put it out quickly enough?

[edit] Again, the source of the problem isn't the issue - it's that troubleshooting it is unreasonably difficult for the user compared to the alternatives (i.e. non-UWP platforms). A error message explaining that the background/overlay check detected an infringing program would have gone a long way to avoiding this specific incident.

 

[killerhurtalot]

I'm pretty baffled by this article. I'm far from being a computer expert. I'm no where near being a tech journalist. I'm a hobbyist and a gamer. Granted, my first game machine was a 386 which familiarized me with the arcane magic of memory managers and the like so my approach to crashes with new games is fairly methodical.

But this article is a fairly WTF?

Sam was running Afterburner the entire time.

The most basic trouble shooting step is to turn off (and not even start) background processes, especially those that hook into low level systems. Plus, any half-hearted attempt at searching for crash causes on the internet would have pointed one quickly to OSD utilities (and not just in the UWP enviroment).

I have to admit that this article shakes my faith a bit in Sam's professional competence.

If it was so simple to fix, why didn't Microsoft and the Forza team find the solution immediately?

The point is that UWP's error reporting is poor, its problem mitigation solutions are limited, and for a sandbox system that's supposed to separate and protect apps from each other, it doesn't even do its damned job.

Many people run low level programs all the time, for programming, debugging, content creation, and yes, recreation. Windows Store and UWP app developers need to accommodate users, not the other way around.

I would say that they're accommodating most users. Just not power users with UWP since the DRM system doesn't work well with any kind of a 3rd party application that tries to hook into a UWP one.

Oh wait... the entire point of UWP is to make things easier for the average user.

 

[UnnDunn]

Many people run low level programs all the time, for programming, debugging, content creation, and yes, recreation. Windows Store and UWP app developers need to accommodate users, not the other way around.

Why? Because they complain?

Microsoft isn't going to bend over backwards to satisfy a handful of loudmouths complaining that they can't run whatever BS overlay tool they're using.

Because users are the customer and not the product?

Even Microsoft and Turn10 understand this - that's why they tried to fix Sam's problem instead of telling him to get lost.

I'm saying that Microsoft could have saved themselves and their affiliated developers a lot of trouble if they had made UWP more robust and less obtuse.

In my experience, not a single Steam game I've played has ever complained or crashed because I was using Afterburner (I'm not saying they don't crash for other reasons, software is complex. But I've never had to disable Afterburner to get my games to run...yet).

Microsoft used to have this attitude, modifying Windows in myriad different ways to satisfy the whims of minority interests and maintain compatibility with badly-written legacy software like Afterburner.

It lead to Windows being unwieldy to maintain and keep secure. So now, Microsoft spends a lot less effort catering to idiots who write low-level software that does stupid things, especially with regard to hooking into UWP.

If you're running such software, don't expect Microsoft to be willing or able to help you.

 

[GhostRed]

That did the trick. With MSI Afterburner disabled, I could get the game to run. (I had run into the same issue while testing EVGA's updated X1 software, designed for Nvidia's 2000-class GPUs.) As of press time, the game's PC version remains unpatched, so while Microsoft says it's working on a fix, it hasn't been rolled out to paying gamers yet. The only recourse for this crash is to disable every gaming-related background app you can think of (including game-streaming software like OBS) until a patch comes out.

I hate to break it to you, but this is overclocking troubleshooting 101.

While they may very well have a bug that causes conflicts, too, any overclocking software or third-party tools that bootstrap themselves into the game (like OBS) are the first thing you should disable if you get a crash launching a game.

Afterburner is one that I have had a number of issues with in the past and very often it isn't the game's fault at all - MSI just needs to update AB in many cases to support that particular game.

I'm skeptical on how much of this was the game's fault and how much was operator error in basic overclocking knowledge.

You should know AB isn't just for overclocking and many of the other features hook into the active game when it launches. Even if you aren't overclocking, simply having it running might interfere if it's not been updated to be compatible with your game.

As far as disabling every gaming-related background app, I've always done this while gaming. The minimal FPS gain from OC software vs. not having 100 background apps is negligible in most cases and the Nvidia ShadowPlay software does what OBS does better, IMHO and I've seen less of an FPS impact overall.

As skeptical as I am of Nvidia's software, I've never run into these kinds of issues with ShadowPlay.

 

[solomonrex]

In a world where Steam has existed for fifteen years and Microsoft has had multiple visible failures in this very area, in this very core OS functionality, I am absolutely baffled by this. They're moving backwards and the competition isn't actually that good right now.

 

[PandaCheese]

And you thought it couldn’t be worse than GFWL…

 

[AllYourBase]

Microsoft really wants people to switch to MAC or Linux, I think. Their new design philosophy of more obfuscation with UWP is maddening, and I just cannot fathom how they have screwed this up so badly.

Even with Windows 8, it was apparent that the new MS had no idea on how to improve upon the PC, and instead have become almost obsessed with turning computers into phones. While smartphones are great and all, they are clearly best used as informational/media consumption devices--totally different than largely creative devices like PC's.

All that said, It is still easier to troubleshoot and fix/mod issues on Windows than to try to get unsupported software working in a Linux distro, but remarkably, that fact is shrinking quickly. The moment that UWP becomes standard is the moment I will finally switch. It might take some getting used to, but at least another OS will let me attempt fixes, instead of doing its best to block my every action. (Who's computer is this anyway?!)

 

[samred]

what kind of PC gaming tester are you if you don't disable background apps when you run into trouble

Point taken. I believe that detail about leaving a background process open is relevant—because I am so used to Windows 10 games just working with MSI Afterburner on in the background that I don't even think of it as a hurdle to getting a game to run. This is the first time in my 5 years of reviewing PC games for Ars that I've had a game refuse to boot, and not offer a clear crash report, because of that software being on. Maybe y'all hate that software or run into issues with it, and in the complicated world of PC gaming choices, that's understandable. I simply haven't.

For the sake of full disclosure: I don't have any extra Nvidia software running on my system, as I refuse to agree to Nvidia's terms for its Geforce Experience suite, and I don't run OBS or other background-recording apps by default. I also disable Windows 10's "game bar" and recording options by default.

EDIT: One other thing. My Win10 installation was redone completely from scratch in April of this year when I upgraded to an i7-8700k.

 

[Sharra]

My problem with articles like this are they are anecdotal, so this person has a hard time with UWP games, but I didn't see the research or evidence to back up this is a widespread problem for a lot of people. I play multiple UWP games including Forza Horizons 4 on my PC and have never had any problems.

So yet again, we get another opinion piece, which I personally think are garbage by their nature.