Microsoft belatedly attempts to tame USB-C confusion with its rules for PC OEMs
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That helps with proving you got what you bought.
I'm not going to test a cable every time I want to use one though. The problem comes in that the usb standard does not require power or speed to be labeled on the actual cable. Add in that I have cables from a single brand and I have no idea without a label what cable is capable of what
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Simplest solution to that problem is to only purchase Thuderbolt 3 (or 4 if you have money to burn) cables. That takes care of every Type-C to Type-C connection required (>60 W PD, >20 Gbps data, DisplayPort, PCIe tunnelling).
It's the Type-A to Type-C cables that cause all the issues. Hopefully, those will fade into the dustbin of history ... or at least relegated to charging-only.
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(Marvin the Paranoid Android voice) Don't worry, they won't.
I was overjoyed when Thunderbolt 4 and USB 4 became essentially the same thing. I thought they would be synced going forward...the confusion was over...!
When Thunderbolt 5 was announced, it turned out USB named their next generation…
…USB 4 v2.
....groaaaaaan.....
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The issues are not just the Type-A to Type-C cables. Just Type-C cables alone come in a wide range of data rates and power levels.
I do agree with the strategy of buying only the most fully specced cables. I vowed to buy only Thunderbolt 4/USB 4 compatible cables, and that has given me great peace of mind: I can grab any of those cables and they will do what I want. It takes a bit of strength to resist the lower-specced USB-C cables because they cost so much less, but you have to resist because they will fall short in one spec or another.
But then Thunderbolt 5 came out…
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Good to know going forward that "windows compliant" computer components might actually have USB ports that comply.
But as of two days ago, Microsoft lost another Windows user for life when I got my wife's Linux computer set up. I discovered our old printer was dying and got a new one in the process. Once I stopped listening to the printer manufacturer about how to set it up, it got a LOT easier. Two down, one to go. Our roommate is next on the list. The deadline is October. I expect we'll get her set up by then.
And, who knows? She might have better USB ports than any of us. Then again, this is Microsoft trying to impose it's will on a consortium known for chaos and indecisiveness.
Herding cats, indeed...
But as of two days ago, Microsoft lost another Windows user for life when I got my wife's Linux computer set up. I discovered our old printer was dying and got a new one in the process. Once I stopped listening to the printer manufacturer about how to set it up, it got a LOT easier. Two down, one to go. Our roommate is next on the list. The deadline is October. I expect we'll get her set up by then.
And, who knows? She might have better USB ports than any of us. Then again, this is Microsoft trying to impose it's will on a consortium known for chaos and indecisiveness.
Herding cats, indeed...
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Literally the reason I left Thinkpad after twenty years and bought a Framework.
Lenovo's own reps couldn't even tell me which machines had charging-capable ports on both sides. Byeeee.
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Be right back, gonna start my business making startlingly expensive USB C to USB D adapters.
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A lot of the pain on this could be resolved by actually putting the icons that indicate what the cable can do on the connector. This is already standard for Thunderbolt (the Thunderbolt icon and a number telling you which version it is), and the connectors are more than big enough to legibly fit multiple of the USB capability icons on there instead. But instead for non-Thunderbolt USB-C cables usually at most you just get the company's name embossed on.
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Already ran into the power delivery issue. The cable included with the package was supposed to handle higher wattage loads, it didn't. I almost blamed the external monitor until I went out and bought a new cable. Out of the packing box uncertainty.
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I have USB C cables that might as well be proprietary because I only use them with a specific device and it wont work for even slow charging on other devices. I was so excited that everything was switching to USB-C so I wouldnt have to carry a bunch of cables around, or I could reuse cables to whatever is handy.
At least in the before times the cable wouldnt plug in if it wasnt compatible. Now its a mystery if functionality will be as expected, at least now in this thread I learned I can use a Microsoft utility to get the specification of the cables so I can research if my device will work as expected instead of just trying them until it looks like it works.
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I got beat to market again! Need to keep my mouth shut until after I make my millions.
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Intel agreed with the USB-IF to donate the TB3 specification to become USB4.
That OEMs, even with the implementation being blessed and the expectation that "USB4"and "Thunderbolt 3" had become interchangeable, are still nickel-and-diming by turning USB4 ports back into glorified USB3, oh who am I kidding, surprise Pikachu....
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So.. uh.. Microsoft has identified the whole reason the lightning connector and thunderbolt came in existence ? I mean congratulations? Do they want a cookie?
Sadly sometimes it feels like days where we all had nice universal things like Ethernet that "just worked" are over as everyone seems to cut corners (although that took a long time to be fair to get there as an evolution from thicknet to thinnet to RJ45 interconnects). Don't even get me started on AUIs and the AAUIs.
The real issue is that the only way to get something both new and current and not have it take forever for standardization to set in and for everyone to do it right is the certified™ ecosystem model these days of Lightning/Thunderbolt/ Goretex apparel where if it's not certified it's not allowed to exist.
Sadly sometimes it feels like days where we all had nice universal things like Ethernet that "just worked" are over as everyone seems to cut corners (although that took a long time to be fair to get there as an evolution from thicknet to thinnet to RJ45 interconnects). Don't even get me started on AUIs and the AAUIs.
The real issue is that the only way to get something both new and current and not have it take forever for standardization to set in and for everyone to do it right is the certified™ ecosystem model these days of Lightning/Thunderbolt/ Goretex apparel where if it's not certified it's not allowed to exist.
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OK. So I mostly use MacBook Pros and Lenovo P1s.
On the Mac, "disk encryption" is something that is on-by-default and just sits there in the background. You don't even realize it exists unless you attempt to recover some files and discover that without the login password or a management password, you can't decrypt ANY data.
On the P1, every time I start it up, I need to enter the FDE PIN. Not all that invisible.
On the Mac, I have a large multi-touch trackpad. I can do gestures, move the pointer around, or ignore it and type. It just works.
On the P1, it's constantly deciding I've done multi-touch or moved my finger around while I'm doing nothing other than typing on the keyboard. Sometimes it's really annoying, as it performs instantaneous complex actions that I never asked for and have no idea often what they were, until I find data deleted, moved or some process reconfigured.
So yeah, catching up to Apple with USB-C is a good idea for Microsoft. But their history in previous initiatives related to WHCP still leave a LOT to be desired. All the existing issues tend to be stuff they could fix in software, but they haven't, even on the most mainline enterprise hardware platform that supports WHCP.
Still, I guess it's better than nothing.
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This is true, but at least then they can be called out as being criminally fraudulent, just like those $9.99 AliExpress special battery packs that claim to be 10000mAh and actually deliver only a small fraction of that. Right now we can't even do that with USB-C cables.
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To handle the "what can this USB cable do" problem, I bought a USB cable tester and then put all of my unused cables into different ziploc bags. For USB C cables, I have two separate bags, USB 2.0 level speed, and high-speed. I think the high-speed cables also handle higher charging power levels.
This is the cable tester I bought: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CF95VL2Y
This is the cable tester I bought: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CF95VL2Y
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So much negativity.
USB C is exactly what I was hoping for for decades, and it has delivered.
The only issue with ports, are usb-pd is vague
The only issue with cables, is it might not support data
Both problems trump "I can't find a charger that fits" or "shit, do you have a micro usb B cable"
USB C is exactly what I was hoping for for decades, and it has delivered.
The only issue with ports, are usb-pd is vague
The only issue with cables, is it might not support data
Both problems trump "I can't find a charger that fits" or "shit, do you have a micro usb B cable"
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can someone fix the data versus charging situation?
I didn't realize that some USB-C cables are only for charging and don't work for transferring data. I ended up labeling all my cables whether they were data/charging or just charging cables.
I didn't realize that some USB-C cables are only for charging and don't work for transferring data. I ended up labeling all my cables whether they were data/charging or just charging cables.
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Are you saying both sides of every connection should support charging? So your phone will automatically offer to charge your laptop, or your tablet?
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Um, why are you using a trackpad on a device that has a trackpoint? Heathen!
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Still not the biggest issue with USB-C. The non-requirement for conformance on cabling affects far many more people.
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No, they're saying that laptops should have Type-C ports on the left and right side (and maybe the back?) that support charging the laptop.
That way, you can plug into whichever side is most convenient at the time.
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Could partially blame Intel Thunderbolt and Android devices with USB-C but with USB 2.0 capabilities. Think some Dell/Lenovo laptops with dual USB-C and made it confusing if one port was the dedicated charging port and only other abilities were available between the other port(s).
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That replaces a problem rather than solving it.
Apart from the expense, the added thickness and stiffness of a fully functional cable makes it less suitable for some uses, like travelling or plugging your phone into a car, where routing a stiff cable is awful.
For my part, all of my displayport USB-C cables have a strip of yellow heatshrink on each end so I and (more significantly) my wife can identify without weighing.
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Wait until you buy a portable display and find out that none of your existing cables handle video output. Hope you didn't give your label printer away yet.
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The RTX 20- series actually featured a USB-c port with DisplayPort capability, supposedly to support VR headsets, which was really neat for a single-cable solution for keyboard, mouse and monitor for a desktop PC. Then VR died and nvidia removed the feature in the 30- series.
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While it seems like MS has decided to put a spotlight on this, I am confused why it’s being presented as a new initiative?
[EDIT]Hmmm, I guess the requirements for USB 3.x ports are new, but the non-power related USB4 requirements below already existed?
I guess the 15W min req for laptop USB4 ports is a jump up (from 7.5W required for USB-IF certification), but the requirement for laptop charging is superfluous as most / all laptops already have this (and soon mandated by the EU).[/EDIT]
As I understand it, the following USB4 requirements for Windows certification have been in place for a while, they were published on MS’s site on 05/19/2022, 3 years ago:
TB3 compatibility
DP alt-mode (though perhaps no min screen # requirement)
PCIe tunnelling
[EDIT]Hmmm, I guess the requirements for USB 3.x ports are new, but the non-power related USB4 requirements below already existed?
I guess the 15W min req for laptop USB4 ports is a jump up (from 7.5W required for USB-IF certification), but the requirement for laptop charging is superfluous as most / all laptops already have this (and soon mandated by the EU).[/EDIT]
As I understand it, the following USB4 requirements for Windows certification have been in place for a while, they were published on MS’s site on 05/19/2022, 3 years ago:
TB3 compatibility
DP alt-mode (though perhaps no min screen # requirement)
PCIe tunnelling
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You know how the Surface charger has a USB-A port that provides power only? The only reason it can't do USB 2.0 is that 2 wires with a total BOM cost of 20 cents are missing.
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Should be a minimum of 40 Gbps, TB4, Displayport Alt Mode with 4k 120 Hz support and 240W USB-PD with battery bypass for direct power (there are an annoying number of gaming laptops that only support 100 W USB-C charging, meaning they lose power when plugged in and gaming).
I mean, I could ask for Thunderbolt 5 as well, but intel seems to be monopolizing the TB5 controllers.
EDIT: Yes, I'm asking for a lot, but you get a portable device with 2 (or 1) USB-C ports, and finding out a port can't charge or output to a monitor or run a dock with an NVME enclosure is not just frustrating, it's device-breaking.
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Set a standard. Enforce it. Stop letting manufacturers cheap out on non-certified components or at least label them as non-certified.
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Isn't this also dependant on processor? my frame.work 16 supports display output on all of its "only" three of its SIX usb-c ports, because (iir, its been a while), ryzen "limitations"
Quotes because it has a full 6 usb-c ports, and at least one on each side supports display, and framwork in general is as close to "operates in my interest" as we're going to get these days in consumer electronics.
https://frame.work/ca/en/products/laptop16-diy-amd-7040?tab=specs
Quotes because it has a full 6 usb-c ports, and at least one on each side supports display, and framwork in general is as close to "operates in my interest" as we're going to get these days in consumer electronics.
https://frame.work/ca/en/products/laptop16-diy-amd-7040?tab=specs
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That is definitely not how Windows device encryption works by default. It should be totally seamless with the default settings. Even if you manually encrypt the drive with Bitlocker, the default option should be to store the key in the TPM so it's automatically decrypted without needing to enter a PIN or password. It is possible to set things up so you have to enter some sort of password, but that's a pain, which is why machines aren't set up like that by default. The P1, being a business machine, may be configured oddly to please (perhaps overzealous) IT security people, though my X1 was definitely not configured like that out of the box.
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I mean, dual-role ports are already a thing, both in terms of charging and data. You probably don't want to use your phone to charge your laptop, but might use it to recharge your headphones in a pinch. Your laptop can of course charge your phone or be charged by a wall adapter from the same port, and your phone's files can be accessed like a USB drive while plugged into the laptop, or play host to a USB drive on its own. It's a useful capability for basically anything phone-level and up in terms of complexity, especially where space for ports is limited. It's also common enough that there are a ton of ICs designed to handle the negotiation and power/data direction switching, so it's not even that hard to implement on those sorts of devices.
The the previously-quoted poster's point, though, putting high speed data + high power charging ports on opposite sides of a device can actually be fairly challenging, since you either have to make the PCB the full width of the device and do some careful routing across it, or have an extra reasonably complex PCB in the BOM with a high speed + high power cable to connect it, and there's likely a big battery or cooling system in the way. Especially on a laptop with 40Gbps + 100W ports, it's a lot easier to localize the necessary high speed (muxes/PHYs) and high power (bidirectional DC-DC converters, power switches) electronics and routing to one side of the device.
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The spicy power isn't just direct from 120/240V mains anymore, as per the USB2 Killer. The USB 4.2 gen2 r2 mk.iii killer uses a flyback coil for extra spicy kilovoltage power
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