Massive volcanic eruptions + coal fires = the Great Dying

Researchers find coal ash in the sediments of the deep ocean, deposited at the start of the Earth's largest mass extinction. The volcanoes that triggered the extinction ignited neighboring coal beds, sending toxic metals into the oceans.

<a href='http://meincmagazine.com/science/news/2011/01/massive-volcanic-eruptions-coal-fires-the-great-dying.ars'>Read the whole story</a>

 

[coppercore]

Wow, that makes the potential Yellowstone eruption look like a puff of smoke.

 

[amardeus]

Global warming discussion in 3...2...1...

 

[Mortus]

Global warming discussion in 3...2...1...

Fake Warming Bro!

 

[DeadCat]

How does the 3 trillion tons of carbon from burning coal compare to what we're putting in the atmosphere now? Will our emissions be comparable, better, or worse?

 

[Nonapod]

I read a while back about how the eruptions of the Siberian Traps may have been generated by a gargantuan mantle plume that might have been the result of the antipodal effects of a massive impactor hitting the opposite side of the Earth.

 

[Tyashki]

On the plus side, if we use up all the coal this won't be as bad if it happens.

 

[DanNeely]

I read a while back about how the eruptions of the Siberian Traps may have been generated by a gargantuan mantle plume that might have been the result of the antipodal effects of a massive impactor hitting the opposite side of the Earth.

I believe the main challenge with that theory is that there isn't a good candidate crater for the Siberian traps known.

PS, you might want to try and find a better citation. The home page of that one features this: "A new geology theory featuring impact-powered rapid continental drift as an alternative to plate tectonics.
The key to creation geology."

 

[river-wind]

When trying to figure out how a world-wide fire might have played into the Cretaceous extinction many years ago in elementary school, the idea of coal deposit ignition came up. I had forgotten about the conversation until this.

Similarly off topic, but obligatory: Centralia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centralia,_Pennsylvania

 

[Nonapod]

I believe the main challenge with that theory is that there isn't a good candidate crater for the Siberian traps known.

Yeah, I seem to recall the main candidate was the so called Bedout crater, which itself was extremely suspect.

PS, you might want to try and find a better citation. The home page of that one features this: "A new geology theory featuring impact-powered rapid continental drift as an alternative to plate tectonics.
The key to creation geology."

Haha, didn't see that! I'll be more careful next time.

 

[vibedog]

On the plus side, if we use up all the coal this won't be as bad if it happens.

I think that should be the way Obama spins it. Next up is curing the addiction to oil by using it all up- no more oil means no more dependence on foreign oil!

 

[floew]

But, but... what about Nemesis?

 

[Scorp1us]

Where did the coal come from? I thought it was dinosaurs? But dinosaurs came after this? If there was oil too, what made up the oil that they had during the era of dinosaurs?

 

[helel ben shachar]

Where did the coal come from? I thought it was dinosaurs? But dinosaurs came after this? If there was oil too, what made up the oil that they had during the era of dinosaurs?

While I could do a bit of research on this matter I'm currently too lazy to be specific. Coal is primarily plant matter.... Honestly, now I'm too lazy to type........

http://www.ket.org/trips/coal/agsmm/agsmmhow.html

 

[Cervus]

Where did the coal come from? I thought it was dinosaurs? But dinosaurs came after this? If there was oil too, what made up the oil that they had during the era of dinosaurs?

Coal is the compressed remains of plant matter. A lot of the coal we still have come from the massive Carboniferus swamps (~300 million years old). When trees and plants died, they didn't really decompose in the low oxygen environment.

Oil, on the other hand, comes from dead algae.

Dinosaurs never really had anything to do with either.

 

[Tofystedeth]

Where did the coal come from? I thought it was dinosaurs? But dinosaurs came after this? If there was oil too, what made up the oil that they had during the era of dinosaurs?

Coal is the compressed remains of plant matter. A lot of the coal we still have come from the massive Carboniferus swamps (~300 million years old). When trees and plants died, they didn't really decompose in the low oxygen environment.

Oil, on the other hand, comes from dead algae.

Dinosaurs never really had anything to do with either.

Mrs. Doubtfire lied!

 

[omniron]

..

 

[pieguy3141]

Before. Triassic came after the Permian. And dinosaurs are still around; we just call them "crows" and "chickens" and such.

 

[Mathijs_B]

Next up is curing the addiction to oil by using it all up- no more oil means no more dependence on foreign oil!

And then, Nibbler Power! Or whale oil, whatever.

 

[Patrick Bateman]

Check out Peter Ward's TED talk on the Permia...com/talks/peter_ward_on_mass_extinctions.html

I'm glad to see this topic getting the press it deserves, thanks for taking the time to speak for science.

 

[JamesHulsmann]

Silly scientists.. the earth is not much more than a few thousands years old...

 

[nummycakes]

How does the 3 trillion tons of carbon from burning coal compare to what we're putting in the atmosphere now? Will our emissions be comparable, better, or worse?

As far as I can scour we've burned off - very roughly - 400-500 billion tons of carbon between various fossil fuels to date with roughly another 1100 billion tons left to go in the proven reserves game (most of it from coal).

The two situations aren't quite comparable since what's possible to extract for human use from e.g. a coal mine will be the stuff that's in wide and deep enough layers to bother with, only that which is consistent with maintaining enough structure to prevent collapse, etc etc, which is not of concern to a coal fire.

 

[wizard69]

Oil, on the other hand, comes from dead algae.

There isn't solid evidence to say that. Science really doesn't have a good model for the generation of oil.

 

[jabber_wolf]

BOGUS SCIENCE AND CHERRY PICKING OF FACTS:

1- volcanic eruptions - YES
2- coal burning - YES
3 green house gases - YES

What did they leave out?
That the green house gases released had nothing to do with the extinction !!!

What did:
The sulfur dioxide and ash that blotted out the sun and caused the extinction and temperatures to drop.

This is exactly what happens to bogus science and/or reporters that only publish selective facts to prove an agenda and get funding!

 

[The User]

Where did the coal come from? I thought it was dinosaurs? But dinosaurs came after this? If there was oil too, what made up the oil that they had during the era of dinosaurs?

Coal is the compressed remains of plant matter. A lot of the coal we still have come from the massive Carboniferus swamps (~300 million years old). When trees and plants died, they didn't really decompose in the low oxygen environment.

Oil, on the other hand, comes from dead algae.

Dinosaurs never really had anything to do with either.

Darn it! I was researching the feasibility of cloning dinosaurs in order to produce more oil when they die.

On a serious note, while we do a good job of scrubbing fly ash, we don't always do a good job of containing it. Any hope for the future?

 

[Eric]

[moderation=trolling]jabber_wolf

BOGUS SCIENCE AND CHERRY PICKING OF FACTS:

1- volcanic eruptions - YES
2- coal burning - YES
3 green house gases - YES

What did they leave out?
That the green house gases released had nothing to do with the extinction !!!

What did:
The sulfur dioxide and ash that blotted out the sun and caused the extinction and temperatures to drop.

This is exactly what happens to bogus science and/or reporters that only publish selective facts to prove an agenda and get funding![/moderation]

 

[Wheels Of Confusion]

Oil, on the other hand, comes from dead algae.

There isn't solid evidence to say that. Science really doesn't have a good model for the generation of oil.

Kerogen contains chemical markers that convincingly identify algae as a major source of oil. The idea of a fossil origin for petroleum is useful in locating oil deposits, whereas no abiotic origin idea is. There's good evidence for algae as the source of oil and almost none for an abiotic source, even if it were chemically plausible.

 

[The User]

Oil, on the other hand, comes from dead algae.

There isn't solid evidence to say that. Science really doesn't have a good model for the generation of oil.

Kerogen contains chemical markers that convincingly identify algae as a major source of oil. The idea of a fossil origin for petroleum is useful in locating oil deposits, whereas no abiotic origin idea is. There's good evidence for algae as the source of oil and almost none for an abiotic source, even if it were chemically plausible.

I do wonder, however, what differs between oil and coal production processes. Both involve geothermal processes, and take in biomass as an input. One, however, gives you hydrocarbon soup, the other hc "rocks". Is it because one starts as a marine process, or is the composition of ferns opposed to algae substantially different?

Also ,does anyone know of a good estimated
Timeline that takes you through the developments of that period. It sounds like it took place over several million years. I could imagine the toxicity of the eruptions and coal killing much life in rapid successions, followed by a volcanic winter that kills even more. After enough ash clears, at what point does co2 and or mega methane burps from the ocean start to reverse the cooling and raise the temperature to unsustainable levels?

 

[Greasy Breakfast]

Sometimes the world seems to be such an abundantly complicated system, a delicate balance of physics and chemistry, of internal composition and surface biomass, of atmosphere and ocean. Short cycles and long cycles, accentuated by dramatic upheaval.

At my cottage I sit on my dock and stare at the lake and think about the massive events that made this place possible. Glaciation grinding down an ancient range, depositing rich silt and bedrock meltwater water systems. Followed by closely by hardy conifers, rich seasonal plant and animal-life. Sporadic settling by migratory hunter-gathers. The loggers, then cottagers.

An that's only the past 10,000 years or so.

It makes me sad to think a deeply religious person misses all that. They just see a place, static and unchanging. They can't truly marvel at the wonder of creation, because they underestimate the power of it.

 

[Wheels Of Confusion]

I do wonder, however, what differs between oil and coal production processes. Both involve geothermal processes, and take in biomass as an input. One, however, gives you hydrocarbon soup, the other hc "rocks". Is it because one starts as a marine process, or is the composition of ferns opposed to algae substantially different?

Pretty much. Both coal and oil are what's left behind when dead plants are cooked under pressure, and what gets left behind is different depending on what goes into the muck to start with.

 

[earl grey]

I think the dinosaurs killed themselves. Everyone knows they ate beans.

 

[gamegod0]

You guys have awesome science writing, it's always a pleasure to read it!

 

[PermissionForAINotGiven]

Oil, on the other hand, comes from dead algae.

There isn't solid evidence to say that. Science really doesn't have a good model for the generation of oil.

What the fnord are you smoking, man?

Can I have some? How much for a reference to your dealer?

 

[Arch-Stanton]

I've found several references to the late Permian Extinction being the largest mass extinction, but it was my understanding that the Great Oxygenation Event was the closest call to eliminating life on earth all together. Anyone know how these two compare?

 

[aoeu]

Sometimes the world seems to be such an abundantly complicated system, a delicate balance of physics and chemistry, of internal composition and surface biomass, of atmosphere and ocean. Short cycles and long cycles, accentuated by dramatic upheaval.

At my cottage I sit on my dock and stare at the lake and think about the massive events that made this place possible. Glaciation grinding down an ancient range, depositing rich silt and bedrock meltwater water systems. Followed by closely by hardy conifers, rich seasonal plant and animal-life. Sporadic settling by migratory hunter-gathers. The loggers, then cottagers.

An that's only the past 10,000 years or so.

It makes me sad to think a deeply religious person misses all that. They just see a place, static and unchanging. They can't truly marvel at the wonder of creation, because they underestimate the power of it.

Great post.

As for the article, I too was wondering about the presence of coal that far back, but apparently coal can be up to 400 million years old (starting when abundant plant matter appeared on land), so at 250 million years ago I guess there was already plenty of it.

 

[chris0101]

I've found several references to the late Permian Extinction being the largest mass extinction, but it was my understanding that the Great Oxygenation Event was the closest call to eliminating life on earth all together. Anyone know how these two compare?

The Great Oxygenation would have wiped out most of the world's obligate anaerobic bacteria. It's difficult to directly compare, because there were no complex multicellular eukaryotes living in that era. It may have triggered a snowball earth event. However, in this case, aerobic single celled species would have multiplied due to the increased oxygen.

For what its worth though, the Permian extinction nearly completely wiped out the complex lifeforms on earth. It's effects are still being felt today. For example, ever since the Permian extinction, the amount of Sessile sea species has declined in proportion to more mobile ones. However, it's unlikely that the Permian extinction was anywhere near wiping out single-celled life on earth.

 

[chris0101]

As for the article, I too was wondering about the presence of coal that far back, but apparently coal can be up to 400 million years old (starting when abundant plant matter appeared on land), so at 250 million years ago I guess there was already plenty of it.

There is plenty of coal. In fact, the only time that there wasn't coal ever since plant life migrated onto land and multiplied was during the Permian extinction, which has led to what is known as a "coal gap" - that is so much extinction that there wasn't enough biomatter to form coal.

Petroleum, as was pointed out above, is actual not a very common product. It is formed under very special circumstances from dead algae under warm nutrient rich situations (ex: the ancient Tethys Sea). It has to be under the right conditions (a narrow range of temperatures, pressure, etc.) and from geologically rare circumstances.