Man donated his body to science; company sold $500 tickets to his dissection
- Thread starter JournalBot
- Start date
There is a degree of respect that one should have for the remains of another's loved one. While I disagree with some of the testing that is done for research into certain things, putting in on display and selling tickets like this is a complete disregard for any respect or dignity for the dead.
Upvote
66
(66
/
0)
Honestly, I don’t know on the military side. My dad knew some people who worked in crash safety in the auto industry and cadaver testing was still a thing in the 2000s for some research areas, so there must be a way round it.
(For example, he had a colleague who was the global expert on occupant skulls colliding with the A-pillar and header rail in front end impacts. The consultancy did a lot of BIW and interior development, back when auto consultancies were a thing)
Upvote
19
(19
/
0)
Fraud.
We are talking about fraud perpetrated on someone during the grieving process and someone taking advantage of the person during that grief to make a buck.
It's not at all like throwing something away.
It's like giving money to charity for water in a developing nation and finding out Bob used the money to buy cocktails in Cancun but because it had ice cubes in it that counts.
I know not all 100% of donations fund clean water but some asshole buying cocktails with all of my donation money is still fraud.
Upvote
116
(118
/
-2)
I knew these kinds of morbid circus used to be a thing, and now I learned this is still a thing, just like so many other disgusting craps.
As others have asked, how is this not against the law?
As others have asked, how is this not against the law?
Upvote
17
(17
/
0)
For those not familliar with this subject, the human cadaver industry is nuts and ethics problems abound:
Reuters: The Body Trade is a good starting place.
"But no federal law governs the sale of cadavers or body parts for use in research or education. Few state laws provide any oversight whatsoever, and almost anyone, regardless of expertise, can dissect and sell human body parts." - From the above article
There's a lot of people in the "Vulture Culture" scene (people who collect bones and other things) who are absolutely horrified over this. I know many people who are bone collectors and refuse to have anything to do with human remains simply because the provenance of anything human is highly questionable- it could be ethically sourced, it could be from someone who knew not what they were actually donating to, it could even be raided from a native american site. It's crazy and there's so much unethical sellers of human remains, completely legal, that it's astounding.
Edit:
I was trying to find the other article on human remains I knew of and my Google-fu finally came through for me.
Human Skulls Are Being Sold Online, But Is It Legal?
Reuters: The Body Trade is a good starting place.
"But no federal law governs the sale of cadavers or body parts for use in research or education. Few state laws provide any oversight whatsoever, and almost anyone, regardless of expertise, can dissect and sell human body parts." - From the above article
There's a lot of people in the "Vulture Culture" scene (people who collect bones and other things) who are absolutely horrified over this. I know many people who are bone collectors and refuse to have anything to do with human remains simply because the provenance of anything human is highly questionable- it could be ethically sourced, it could be from someone who knew not what they were actually donating to, it could even be raided from a native american site. It's crazy and there's so much unethical sellers of human remains, completely legal, that it's astounding.
Edit:
I was trying to find the other article on human remains I knew of and my Google-fu finally came through for me.
Human Skulls Are Being Sold Online, But Is It Legal?
Upvote
45
(45
/
0)
You know capitalism's rotted your brain when you're comparing human remains to garbage. And then claiming to have concern for the widow's feelings? To answer your question, yes, I imagine she would feel better if his body were being used for legitimate scientific research, as per his wishes. This is not a complex moral quandry. It's a question of respecting a dying man's wishes.
Upvote
85
(96
/
-11)
Upvote
11
(20
/
-9)
Fun fact: Rigor mortis is not permanent! It happens a few hours after death and then anyhwhere from a few hours to a few days later it ceases and the muscles relax again. Likely the cadaver testing in these cases are used with cadavers that rigor mortis has already passed.
(I don't comment much on posts since I'm not terribly eloquent or informed on a lot of the subjects I read on here, but I think now my post history is going to cause an eyebrow to raise for anyone reading my post history now!)
Upvote
85
(85
/
0)
While I am indifferent to what happens to me after I die, it is not fair to expect everyone to be okay with it. Of all the things that could happen, being dissected as entertainment for a bunch of wealthy hipsters is pretty stupid. I'm curious if current laws give PPD or the county DA any legal grounds to stop this. If government doesn't stop this, you'd think someone would've protested this. I'm not going to pretend I'm dedicated enough to do this myself because I'm not, but I find it disappointing there wasn't more backlash. This is like one of the few things I could think of that nearly any part of the political spectrum aside from the Q psychos but probably even a few Q psychos could detest.
Upvote
16
(18
/
-2)
YetAnotherAnonymousAppellation
Ars Praefectus
I'm betting that the contract the widow signed with Med Ed Labs has some really tiny print that espouses in the most indecipherable legal language possible that "the body is ours to do with as we wish, regardless of what we tell you."
If it doesn't, sue the bastards into the ground. Even if it's in the contract, there must be something they can be sued for.
If it doesn't, sue the bastards into the ground. Even if it's in the contract, there must be something they can be sued for.
Upvote
24
(25
/
-1)
Yep, I'm familiar with that and it's partly why I was questioning his actual commitment to helping the environment. Added cremated ashes to eco-concrete serves no purpose other than some form of virtue-signaling.
Upvote
-12
(18
/
-30)
I think it depends on how the exhibition is marketed and executed (perhaps poor choice of words there). If the donor was made aware that one of the potential uses was public dissection, I really don't have a problem with it.
There's nothing inherently wrong with charging an audience to watch a skilled dissector carefully reveal how the human body is constructed.
If the dissection was carried out properly, and with respect (i.e. no tombstones, cobwebs, or creepy music intended to invoke some sort of paranormal atmosphere), dissection certainly can be educational and beneficial to the general public. Appreciating just how complex the body is internally frequently leads to a greater respect for it in general.
The issue here is really that this potential use was not made clear to the decedent's widow prior to donation.
Upvote
31
(32
/
-1)
This... sounds like a law school hypothetical from a torts final. Here's hoping she can get an injunction against the ticket sale proceeds before they are all spent.
Upvote
26
(27
/
-1)
Upvote
9
(10
/
-1)
There is a lot of damage control that will be required here. I for one will never consider donating any part of me as long as there is any possibility that my remains will be used for someone else's deviant profit making fantasies.
I sure hope the widow of this poor soul will sue the existence out of all those involved. She is at least owed all the profits made in this sick, deviant display of extreme human indecency. That, at least, would be a good first step in controlling the damage done here.
I sure hope the widow of this poor soul will sue the existence out of all those involved. She is at least owed all the profits made in this sick, deviant display of extreme human indecency. That, at least, would be a good first step in controlling the damage done here.
Upvote
26
(26
/
0)
The problem is not that the corpse was dissected. Although dissection for profit is in quite poor taste. The problem is that they took a body that was supposed to be used to help science progress and made a quick buck. They lied, deceived, profited from the good intentions of a widow, all in the name of easy profit. Even if you are not religious or consider a corpse as just decaying meat, that’s beyond the pale.
A corpse at the body farm has a chance of being useful and actually contribute to our knowledge of some quite complex phenomena. So yes, that would be advancing science.
Upvote
64
(64
/
0)
Upvote
7
(8
/
-1)
Rigor mortis also doesn't protect ribs from fracturing on impact, something quite germane to the study of body armor. Almost all preservation methods impact the tissues of a body in some way. The typical med student's formalin that I had to endure leaves the cadaver looking and feeling like overcooked poultry. Anybody using such things for research knows the limitations of generalizing and is generally looking for something specific. And usually using cadaver studies as a precursor to guide further research on live animals or human volunteers.
Upvote
17
(17
/
0)
The bigger issue to me is why was/is there a market for these tickets?
bonus thought: At up to $500 a ticket, is life so droll that this is what you spend your disposable income on for your jollies?
wtf is wrong with these people -
Also with the insight that Europe already has laws against this because it kept happening to the point where it became an issue really shows it's not just a local thing either.
I guess if this is a thing you'd do for "fun" you're already petty far down on the empathy scale - around sociopath
bonus thought: At up to $500 a ticket, is life so droll that this is what you spend your disposable income on for your jollies?
wtf is wrong with these people -
Also with the insight that Europe already has laws against this because it kept happening to the point where it became an issue really shows it's not just a local thing either.
I guess if this is a thing you'd do for "fun" you're already petty far down on the empathy scale - around sociopath
Upvote
51
(51
/
0)
Tangential to the topic (and I agree as above, ewwww...) but years ago in college, I accidentally gashed myself pretty badly on the inside of my wrist. Off to the student health center to get sewn up. After a local anaesthetic, while we were waiting for it to take full effect, the doctor suggested I have a good look at all the tendons and stuff that were exposed. He wiggled my fingers and showed me the various bits moving around in there. I have to admit it was fascinating, and as he pointed out, it was unlikely I'd get another chance to see that stuff in action. So far (thankfully) that's been true.
But not for profit and jollies. I understand that one venue rejected them once they found out what was planned, but an alternate hotel agreed to host it using the "we're not responsible for what paying guests do" argument.
But not for profit and jollies. I understand that one venue rejected them once they found out what was planned, but an alternate hotel agreed to host it using the "we're not responsible for what paying guests do" argument.
Upvote
31
(31
/
0)
I think many people have glamourous ideas about what donating your body to science might mean. Chances are, you are not going to be used to solve some super mysterious aliment.
But there's a huge difference between ending up in a forensic body farm and being used for pure private profit.
But there's a huge difference between ending up in a forensic body farm and being used for pure private profit.
Upvote
32
(32
/
0)
I don't actually know anyone who went to this so I can only speculate, but there is definitely a lot of people in Portland who are pseudo-intellectual douche bag turbo hipsters and make big money working at Nike, Intel, and other well paying companies. Emphasis on speculation but I do live in Portland so I'm not basing this off some sketch comedy or Fox News host's depiction of Portland. Attending such an event might give them some science cred and they'd be too insensitive to understand why it is in poor taste.
Upvote
30
(30
/
0)
That’s probably a good thing. Cannibalism is usually frowned upon.
Upvote
16
(16
/
0)
coconutboy
Ars Praefectus
I'm not certain, but given the topic involved, I'm gonna guess this website belongs to Jeremy Ciliberto. Included in his "portfolio" are social media accounts that paint a portrait of a person who doesn't shy away from making a buck off skulls and bones.
His youtube channel, Catacomb Culture, displays an acute degree of appreciation for death that practically borders on fetishistic.
Assuming the above are the same guy (odds are pretty freakin' high), this debacle needs to be looked into further. Either Med Ed Labs, Jeremy Ciliberto, or both, have crossed waaaaay too far over the line and taken advantage of Elsie and David Saunders.
As the article points out, David Saunders was a WW2 and Korean War veteran. The field of battle didn't kill him, but to have his corpse used in this manner is a disgrace. Maybe the military community and their families could aid with further private investigators and attorneys to get to the bottom of how exactly the transaction took place that allowed for Ciliberto to abuse the Saunders family's good intentions.
Personally, I've visited catacombs, and that sort of thing, but seeing the Saunders family taken advantage of in this manner makes me sick.
His youtube channel, Catacomb Culture, displays an acute degree of appreciation for death that practically borders on fetishistic.
Assuming the above are the same guy (odds are pretty freakin' high), this debacle needs to be looked into further. Either Med Ed Labs, Jeremy Ciliberto, or both, have crossed waaaaay too far over the line and taken advantage of Elsie and David Saunders.
As the article points out, David Saunders was a WW2 and Korean War veteran. The field of battle didn't kill him, but to have his corpse used in this manner is a disgrace. Maybe the military community and their families could aid with further private investigators and attorneys to get to the bottom of how exactly the transaction took place that allowed for Ciliberto to abuse the Saunders family's good intentions.
Personally, I've visited catacombs, and that sort of thing, but seeing the Saunders family taken advantage of in this manner makes me sick.
Upvote
23
(24
/
-1)
I recently left Portland, and Vincent is 100% correct on the pseudo-intellectual douchebag thing. I have very little doubt that the people who attended this really do think they were "participating in science." I used to work for the medical board there, and let me tell you how frightening it is to hear things like investigators commenting on how "science can't explain how helicopters fly," or that drinking a glass of water upside-down is a scientific cure for hiccups (both genuinely things I heard out of investigators' mouths). Keep it classy, Portland.
Upvote
27
(27
/
0)
Upvote
-1
(3
/
-4)
I'd be fine with donating my corpse for something like training surgeons, but I've read too many horror stories about the estate being charged thousands of dollars in extra hospital fees for the privilege of making that donation. So nope, burn it.
Upvote
19
(19
/
0)
Ending up at the Body Farm would be a noble end in my opinion, and I've considered making the arrangements, although that's not a decision I'm faced with at the moment and I'm not committed to it. But after this, and other stories I've heard, I'd need some hard and fast guarantees that my wishes will be honored.
As far as my corpse being sold and "belonging" to someone else, that's a hard "no." As long as my wife and I are alive my body belongs to her, and if I pass before she does then my corpse will belong to her. If she donates it to some entity with a certain understanding on what use is to be made of it, and that understanding is violated, particularly if it ends up being sold for someone else's profit, I'm going to cancel my death and do some real damage to those jackasses.
I don't care what happens to my body after death for my own sake, but for the peace of mind, honor and dignity of my loved ones and survivors, I'm kind of picky.
Upvote
30
(30
/
0)
I'm kinda okay with that tbh. Or car accident test dummy validation, or a myriad of other uses.
If not, just feed me to the crabs so I can be delicious.
Upvote
14
(14
/
0)
I didn't read all the comments so I'm sure someone already said this, but of course the obligatory "also just known as capitalism" belongs here. Cheers for the comment.
Upvote
-7
(12
/
-19)
The issue is that the actual use was not what the decedent and his widow signed up for. It was described as fraud upthread. I think that label is valid.
Upvote
26
(26
/
0)
