Lithium-air batteries breath easy with TiC electrode

The strength of titanium makes for longer lasting lithium air batteries.

Read the whole story

 

[Icaarus]

To the 49% vs 30% calculation: assuming that each charge reduces the same relative amount assumes that the equilibrium is Lithium dependant. What if it isn't, if it's Carbon dependant then wouldn't the loss progress with carbon availability? Would 49% simply be best case and 30% is worst case?

 

[Chimel31]

How is 2% loss after 100 cycles good? Isn't that huge?

 

[Icaarus]

Chimel31[/url]":kerbhj64]How is 2% loss after 100 cycles good? Isn't that huge?

I did the math and assuming the loss is relative to lithium (see my prev comment), that would amount to 0.02% loss per cycle, or 80% capacity after 1000 cycles, so it's on par with current best of class batteries.

 

[WIT_IDE]

Chimel31[/url]":1gilp7s5]How is 2% loss after 100 cycles good? Isn't that huge?

Compared to 100% loss after 25 cycles, it is practically black magic. And I think is actually better than lithium ion (if I'm reading stuff right)...

Of course, there are a number of details not mentioned.

 

[BadSuperblock]

M-S-G[/url]":3tr7bio3]

matthewslyman[/url]":3tr7bio3]

M-S-G[/url]":3tr7bio3]Seems to me that at least on the consumer level we have hit the wall a while back - 1800mah cell phone battery looks the same as 8 years ago in size and density.
Battery management ICs too. Apple led the way with this technology, managing & capping charge/discharge cycles so as to optimize battery life-span.

I don't know about Apple leading that but they certainly led the way making their devices 60% battery by volume.

I believe the battery management story. My 2011 MacBook Pro battery is at 95% health after almost 300 cycles. On all my older laptops, 300 cycles would mean the battery would be nearing replacement. But I'm still getting 4+ hour battery runtimes, and it even got longer after the Mavericks upgrade. Apple definitely seems to be doing more than just packing in more battery.

 

[Tundro Walker]

Titanium is a bitch to extract from the earth, though. While it's less expensive than gold (and not as heavy) wouldn't it still be a pretty expensive battery?

 

[DomL]

To obtain a stable electrode material, the researchers used nanoporous gold. But gold is expensive and heavy. If you're going to go to all the trouble of using lithium (the lightest metal in the periodic table) in your battery, you don't want to lose the big weight advantage by using gold (one of the heaviest metals) in its electrodes. So this paper was about finding a replacement for gold.

While it's true that gold is a fairly dense metal, I'd eat my hat if its weight is the real issue here. The obvious reason not to use gold is cost.

Current price of gold is about <quickly googles> USD $1250 per ounce or $45 per gram. If you're using enough gold to make a noticeable difference in the weight of your laptop battery, you're adding thousands of dollars to the cost.

 

[Chuckstar]

Tundro Walker[/url]":nakknir8]Titanium is a bitch to extract from the earth, though. While it's less expensive than gold (and not as heavy) wouldn't it still be a pretty expensive battery?

Titanium is about $0.50/ounce

Copper is about $0.20/ounce

Gold is about $1,200/ounce

There are metals that would get you an order of magnitude cheaper than titanium, but I don't think titanium really reflects a show-stopper cost issue. And calling it "less expensive than gold" is somewhat of an understatement.

 

[SirOmega]

MgSam[/url]":383qlv3d]

The performance of the current generation of lithium ion batteries is about to hit a wall...

Does the author or someone else have a link to research, preferably with some graphs, showing the improvement in lithium-ion battery energy density over time? I've heard this claim a bunch of times, that battery technology has continually gotten better, but anecdotally I've found that it's almost entirely the size of the battery and the power consumption that affects battery life.

I haven't personally noticed any improvement in lithium-ion batteries in years, nor do I see any actual advances reported in the tech media as you do with things like CPU power consumption. The only articles I've ever seen are about researchers working on "the next big thing" in batter technology, which, like fusion, always seems 2-5 years away.

Sorry I don't have any charts, but I will say you are right anecdotally - Li-Ion batteries haven't changed much in the last few years. There has been a ton of new-battery-chemistry hype (especially surrounding EVs and grid storage), but little in the way of progress on the store shelves or in the consumer electronics you buy.

Why? Because the focus for the last 3-4 years has been on making batteries cheaper, not better. This is driven primarily because of EVs and grid storage - most notably Tesla. Consumer electronics are not hte dominant players in the battery industry anymore. By comparison, Tesla is looking to sell 21,000 Model S units this year - assuming average pack size is 75kWh (a mix of 85 and 60), that's a total of 1.58 billion watt-hours of energy storage, or enough for 48M iPad Air battery packs.

We have modern Li-Ion, using a carbon anode, which is close to maxing out at about 250Wh/kg (Panasonic's NCR18650B). The next step after this is Li-Ion with a silicon anode, though there are issues with cycle life because silicon expands dramatically when lithiated and the repeated expansion and contraction cycles break down the silicon anode. Silicon Anodes can get us to about 325Wh/kg. Then we'll need to replace the cathode with a new material to get to about 400Wh/kg.

Beyond this (and my pick for next battery type to be widely commercialized) is Lithium-Sulfur. Li-S will have similar cycle life (600-1000 cycles) as today's lithium ion, but will weight half as much, and will be safer than today's Li-Ion. Around 400-500 Wh/kg is the likely target by 2016. This is likely the next step-change for Li-Ion batteries for consumer devices and electric vehicles. They occupy slightly less volume, but they weigh half as much, which could make that next laptop or tablet lighter, and shaving a few hundred pounds off the curb weight of an EV would help increase range dramatically.

There are companies who are working on commercializing Li-S, SION Power and OXIS are two of them. I would expect Li-S batteries to have their run in the sun from 2016-2020.

After this, we're likely to get to Li-Air sometime in the early to mid 2020s. Early Li-Air batteries may not be suitable for all purposes, it may take another few years before they can be as versatile as Li-Ion batteries are today.

 

[EddyKilowatt]

The performance of the current generation of lithium ion batteries is about to hit a wall

[citation needed]

There are so many promising developments in the lithium-ion pipeline it makes your head spin. There's no Moore's Law driving things, and breakthroughs like a practical Li-Air or Li-S are still a longshot... but everyone in the field seems to expect several-plus percent of capacity improvement per year for the next several years.

 

[Veritas super omens]

First re: tough chemical names. Organic chemistry nomenclature is phenomenally challenging when you start getting into complex structures.
Second: You can substitute titanium carbide for gold? Think my wife would notice the difference in her jewelry? My titanium drill bits definitely have a golden color!

 

[Veritas super omens]

Also: Chris great article. Love the materials science stuff!

 

[SirOmega]

EddyKilowatt[/url]":3dee2ujp]
There are so many promising developments in the lithium-ion pipeline it makes your head spin. There's no Moore's Law driving things, and breakthroughs like a practical Li-Air or Li-S are still a longshot... but everyone in the field seems to expect several-plus percent of capacity improvement per year for the next several years.

There are always tons of promising developments in the pipeline. But how many will pan out and meet the six major requirements needed for commercial Li-Ion batteries? (Calender life, cycle life, Wh/kg, Wh/L Power output at various C rates, safety)

Look at Envia, or EESTOR or any of the history of people coming up with amazing batteries that turn out to be frauds.

I drive an EV and I want batteries to improve, but its a long road, and batteries only get better at about 8% per year, if that.

 

[slugabed]

kdavis[/url]":l4jqlfqj]The article called lithium "ideal" - well almost - the high price of lithium is a concern. I Googled it and it seems down a little compared to a couple years ago, and answers vary, but it's still not cheap.

If the political and economic conditions in Bolivia can be stabilized so as to maximize the good for all, the cost of producing lithium approaches that of table salt. It's final price, of course, is another matter.

 

[DanNeely]

Veritas super omens[/url]":39ywwd4t]First re: tough chemical names. Organic chemistry nomenclature is phenomenally challenging when you start getting into complex structures.
Second: You can substitute titanium carbide for gold? Think my wife would notice the difference in her jewelry? My titanium drill bits definitely have a golden color!

When the "gold" part starts scratching and breaking her skin I'm sure she'll notice.

 

[superchkn]

BadSuperblock[/url]":2vusocj8]

M-S-G[/url]":2vusocj8]

matthewslyman[/url]":2vusocj8]

M-S-G[/url]":2vusocj8]Seems to me that at least on the consumer level we have hit the wall a while back - 1800mah cell phone battery looks the same as 8 years ago in size and density.
Battery management ICs too. Apple led the way with this technology, managing & capping charge/discharge cycles so as to optimize battery life-span.

I don't know about Apple leading that but they certainly led the way making their devices 60% battery by volume.

I believe the battery management story. My 2011 MacBook Pro battery is at 95% health after almost 300 cycles. On all my older laptops, 300 cycles would mean the battery would be nearing replacement. But I'm still getting 4+ hour battery runtimes, and it even got longer after the Mavericks upgrade. Apple definitely seems to be doing more than just packing in more battery.

ThinkPad does this as well with their laptops, though you can choose to prioritize capacity over lifetime in the software (clearly short-term thinking in my experience). I had a doctor change the setting to maximize runtime and he chewed a battery down to 70% capacity in a little over a month, whereas on the maximize lifespan setting the same battery normally lasted about 8 months before hitting that mark.

 

[Maury Markowitz]

One thing I didn't see-what's the definition of "cycle"? If that's a 100% discharge, this is already way better than existing lead acid systems. If it's 20% DoD then it's a different story entirely.

 

[nalgas]

Veritas super omens[/url]":3i1iwu7b]
Second: You can substitute titanium carbide for gold? Think my wife would notice the difference in her jewelry? My titanium drill bits definitely have a golden color!

Titanium carbide has become a somewhat popular alternative for jewelry in the past few years, especially for men's rings, but she'd definitely notice: it's more of a silvery grey color. It's a pretty neat material though, whether used for jewelry, industrial, or other uses.

 

[sonicmerlin]

I am totally, totally fine with losing 2% capacity after 100 charge cycles. Now can we *please* put this into a real battery and slap it into an electronic device? How long would this take...?

 

[Dadlyedly]

joshv[/url]":3627rbj2]Question about these batteries - if they need an external supply of oxygen, I assume the batteries need an external vent and some air flow, or am I mistaken?

IIRC, isn't DMSO^4 a fairly strong nerve agent created from DMSO during a sudden temperature change?

 

[Roma Curia]

nalgas[/url]":2t9f2a3v]

Veritas super omens[/url]":2t9f2a3v]
Second: You can substitute titanium carbide for gold? Think my wife would notice the difference in her jewelry? My titanium drill bits definitely have a golden color!

Titanium carbide has become a somewhat popular alternative for jewelry in the past few years, especially for men's rings, but she'd definitely notice: it's more of a silvery grey color. It's a pretty neat material though, whether used for jewelry, industrial, or other uses.

I believe you're thinking of Tungsten Carbide not Titanium Carbide.

 

[DanNeely]

TAFKAP[/url]":3tmb9btw]They'd have to check the safety of the battery.

Leaking DMSO, containing Lithium compounds, onto the eyes or skin could be quite dangerous. Safely packaging the battery for personal use could overcome any weight benefits.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmso

Lead, Cadmium, and sulphuric acid are all nasty things you want to keep away from your body too. The battery industry has plenty of experience in safely providing hazmat to consumers.

 

[mudlock]

MgSam[/url]":1ysucu69]

The performance of the current generation of lithium ion batteries is about to hit a wall...

Does the author or someone else have a link to research, preferably with some graphs, showing the improvement in lithium-ion battery energy density over time?

https://www.google.com/search?q=li-ion+ ... e&tbm=isch

http://dddusmma.wordpress.com/2013/03/2 ... lles-heal/

Don't see any updates since '05 (at ~200 Wh/Kg.) May not have been any significant ones since; theoretical maximum is in the ~250 Wh/Kg range.

 

[vnicolici]

superchkn[/url]":2h244a72]

BadSuperblock[/url]":2h244a72]

M-S-G[/url]":2h244a72]

matthewslyman[/url]":2h244a72]

M-S-G[/url]":2h244a72]Seems to me that at least on the consumer level we have hit the wall a while back - 1800mah cell phone battery looks the same as 8 years ago in size and density.
Battery management ICs too. Apple led the way with this technology, managing & capping charge/discharge cycles so as to optimize battery life-span.

I don't know about Apple leading that but they certainly led the way making their devices 60% battery by volume.

I believe the battery management story. My 2011 MacBook Pro battery is at 95% health after almost 300 cycles. On all my older laptops, 300 cycles would mean the battery would be nearing replacement. But I'm still getting 4+ hour battery runtimes, and it even got longer after the Mavericks upgrade. Apple definitely seems to be doing more than just packing in more battery.

ThinkPad does this as well with their laptops, though you can choose to prioritize capacity over lifetime in the software (clearly short-term thinking in my experience). I had a doctor change the setting to maximize runtime and he chewed a battery down to 70% capacity in a little over a month, whereas on the maximize lifespan setting the same battery normally lasted about 8 months before hitting that mark.

That's strange. On my Acer laptop I still have 76% capacity after 3 years. However, I usually use it connected to AC, because it's a desktop replacement and the battery only lasted for 2 hours when new.

You probably used more cycles than me, but still, 8 month seems a bit low.

 

[laserboy]

Oldmanalex[/url]":3m0hccd3]

laserboy[/url]":3m0hccd3]Yep, my mistake. I'll correct it

I would not bother. Given the complexity of the oxidation, and the fact that it probably only occurs on certain crystal faces, or perhaps at certain lattice defects, all of these things are approximations. One can imagine for instance that lithium carbonate actually encourages the formation of a crystal type and increases the surface area vulnerable to further carbonate formation, in which case until there was very little lithium remaining the degradation would speed up. Or, if the source of the carbonate is the solvent, the well known propensity of ethers to form autoxidation products at an increased rate as they "age", that could also speed up the reaction. Thus the criticism of the failure to use the exponential is probably mainly coming from the "Postulate a spherical chicken crowd". In the real world, who knows?

Sure, but it saves everyone a bit of mental anguish if I do.

 

[SBD]

Titanium is a bitch to extract from the earth, though. While it's less expensive than gold (and not as heavy) wouldn't it still be a pretty expensive battery?

The cost isn't extracting it from the earth - you can scoop it up off a beach pretty easily. Titanium oxide is basically the white pigment in paint and sunblock.

Stripping off the oxygen and turning it into metallic titanium is where the cost is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kroll_process

$.50/oz or $8/lb would be a reasonable cost for lightly alloyed titanium, taken from Kroll process raw material and melted into a ~15,000 lb ingot.

 

[erendorn]

joshv[/url]":2z7tmvbq]
Well, I thought this was one of the benefits of the system, as that because you are bringing in energy from elements external to the system, they have higher energy "density" - it seems packing all the oxygen you need into the battery would defeat that purpose.

I guess that, if this is the case, the weight of the battery could increase noticeably during use?

 

[Madlyb]

BadSuperblock[/url]":r45jn8z1]

M-S-G[/url]":r45jn8z1]

matthewslyman[/url]":r45jn8z1]

M-S-G[/url]":r45jn8z1]Seems to me that at least on the consumer level we have hit the wall a while back - 1800mah cell phone battery looks the same as 8 years ago in size and density.
Battery management ICs too. Apple led the way with this technology, managing & capping charge/discharge cycles so as to optimize battery life-span.

I don't know about Apple leading that but they certainly led the way making their devices 60% battery by volume.

I believe the battery management story. My 2011 MacBook Pro battery is at 95% health after almost 300 cycles. On all my older laptops, 300 cycles would mean the battery would be nearing replacement. But I'm still getting 4+ hour battery runtimes, and it even got longer after the Mavericks upgrade. Apple definitely seems to be doing more than just packing in more battery.

Battery Mgmt has definitely improved, but that is only part of the story. One key aspect is the overall consumption across key components (CPU, Graphics, Storage) has been dropping for the last few generations reducing how aggressively the battery is discharged and that helps the battery life as well.

 

[xwindowsjunkie]

Using DMSO as a portion of the electromotive cell might be a safety risk, in that a lot of ionic chemicals dissolved it can be absorbed through skin when brought into contact. It is a mechanism used in a number of arthritis drugs and perhaps most infamously during the Electric KoolAid Acid test when doped with LSD.No idea what DMSO with motile Lithium in it would do to the typical human.