Legacy macOS in emulation on Apple Silicon?

stevenkan

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Suppose I have some expensive software like Adobe CS6 that runs only on 10.14 and prior, but I want to buy myself a spiffy new 16" MBP with whatever new hotness it gets revved with next.

Can I run 10.14 in an emulator like QEMU? Has anyone here done that yet?

I don't need blazing performance; I just need to be able to open an .ai, .psd, or .indd document, 5-6 times per year, for an hour or two each time. And I don't want to pay $85 for a month's subscription every time I want to change a line of text.
 

JimCampbell

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I don't need blazing performance; I just need to be able to open an .ai, .psd, or .indd document, 5-6 times per year, for an hour or two each time. And I don't want to pay $85 for a month's subscription every time I want to change a line of text.

Tha Affinity Suite — Designer, Photo, Publisher — whilst not an exact 1:1 feature match for Illustrator, Photoshop and InDesign respectively, are powerful and very capable for most use cases (even many pro ones). They're a very reasonable one-time payment, other than for full version updates — so if you have the current v1, all 1.x updates are free but you'll need to pay for v2, after which 2.x updates are all free. Despite one or two significant missing features, I could migrate my AI/ID/PS workflow to the Affinity apps tomorrow if forced to.

Designer and Photo will open .ai and .psd files (although Designer won't save back to .ai format) but I think you'd need to save your .indd files as .idml in order for Publisher to open those.
 

chris_f

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Suppose I have some expensive software like Adobe CS6 that runs only on 10.14 and prior, but I want to buy myself a spiffy new 16" MBP with whatever new hotness it gets revved with next.

Can I run 10.14 in an emulator like QEMU? Has anyone here done that yet?

I don't need blazing performance; I just need to be able to open an .ai, .psd, or .indd document, 5-6 times per year, for an hour or two each time. And I don't want to pay $85 for a month's subscription every time I want to change a line of text.
If you could figure out a way to make this work, performance would be terrible. I’d be looking at modern alternatives rather than trying to continue using obsolete Adobe software.
The Affinity apps are well regarded; there’s also Pixelmator Pro which will open PSD files and is a really nice photo editor, I think currently on sale for $20. Even at full price, it’s a nice app and is super fast on Apple Silicon.
 

ToolBoy

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I suspect it's never going to be a simple situation like running Mac OS X in Fusion or Parallels was. QEMU will likely be a workable solution at some point, though the easiest solution is to have an older Mac system like an older MacBook that you can easily pop out of a drawer, boot up, do what you need to do, and then put back in the drawer.

Edit: I've never tried this, but it's based on QEMU and is Apple Silicon native: https://mac.getutm.app

I have used QEMU to run Mac OS 9 on my M1 MacBook Pro, however, and it worked quite well.
 

stevenkan

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Unfortunately I really do need to use the "real" Adobe apps. The common use case is that I'm paying a designer, 12 times zones away, to lay out a brochure for me in InD. During the latter stages of the design/feedback/edit loop, I will find it a lot easier to open the actual InD document and make a dozen small edits to the copy and/or nudge a few photos, and then send the document back to the designer for finalizing. That's a lot faster than describing a dozen small copy edits and nudges, and going through the loop 3-4 times.

I do have an ancient-er 13" MBP that I could leave running for legacy apps, but I'd like to see if I can get something running an AS, even if it's dog-slow, so that I always have it with me.
 

JimCampbell

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I will find it a lot easier to open the actual InD document and make a dozen small edits to the copy and/or nudge a few photos,

I’m afraid you won’t, unless your designer is running a similarly ancient version of the Adobe suite. Adobe has broken backwards compatibility with .indd files at least twice since the introduction of the CC versions, so you’d need an idml file anyway.
 

JimCampbell

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Adobe has broken backwards compatibility with .indd files at least twice since the introduction of the CC versions, so you’d need an idml file anyway.

Actually, Affinity Publisher won't provide a solution in this example — although it'll open .idml files, it can't re-save to the same format, so you'd have no way of returning the amended file to your designer. Sorry — should have checked that earlier.
 

Jonathon

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I suspect it's never going to be a simple situation like running Mac OS X in Fusion or Parallels was. QEMU will likely be a workable solution at some point, though the easiest solution is to have an older Mac system like an older MacBook that you can easily pop out of a drawer, boot up, do what you need to do, and then put back in the drawer.

Edit: I've never tried this, but it's based on QEMU and is Apple Silicon native: https://mac.getutm.app

I have used QEMU to run Mac OS 9 on my M1 MacBook Pro, however, and it worked quite well.
My last attempt at getting x64 Windows running in UTM didn't work out that well-- strictly speaking, it "worked", but it was unusably slow.

x64 macOS will have the same problem, except even more so because the driver situation for legacy macOS on anything other than real hardware is awful (same problem VMWare has-- you can't get accelerated graphics).

(OS9 is tolerable these days in SheepShaver and QEMU almost purely because computers have gotten so much faster that, even with emulation penalties, you're running faster than the original hardware would've in many cases.)
 

ghub005

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I don't need blazing performance; I just need to be able to open an .ai, .psd, or .indd document, 5-6 times per year, for an hour or two each time. And I don't want to pay $85 for a month's subscription every time I want to change a line of text.

Keep an old laptop in a desk drawer with your software installed on it.

Fire it up as needed on those 5-6 times a year and use it to make the minor document edits you mentioned.

Problem solved.
 

petard

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Unfortunately I really do need to use the "real" Adobe apps. The common use case is that I'm paying a designer, 12 times zones away, to lay out a brochure for me in InD. During the latter stages of the design/feedback/edit loop, I will find it a lot easier to open the actual InD document and make a dozen small edits to the copy and/or nudge a few photos, and then send the document back to the designer for finalizing. That's a lot faster than describing a dozen small copy edits and nudges, and going through the loop 3-4 times.

I do have an ancient-er 13" MBP that I could leave running for legacy apps, but I'd like to see if I can get something running an AS, even if it's dog-slow, so that I always have it with me.

Were I in this situation, I might be tempted to buy my designer a copy of the relevant Affinity app and pay them to use that instead.
 
Unfortunately I really do need to use the "real" Adobe apps. The common use case is that I'm paying a designer, 12 times zones away, to lay out a brochure for me in InD. During the latter stages of the design/feedback/edit loop, I will find it a lot easier to open the actual InD document and make a dozen small edits to the copy and/or nudge a few photos, and then send the document back to the designer for finalizing. That's a lot faster than describing a dozen small copy edits and nudges, and going through the loop 3-4 times.

I do have an ancient-er 13" MBP that I could leave running for legacy apps, but I'd like to see if I can get something running an AS, even if it's dog-slow, so that I always have it with me.

Were I in this situation, I might be tempted to buy my designer a copy of the relevant Affinity app and pay them to use that instead.

Part of the problem might be that certain Adobe apps and their formats are pretty much industry standards.
 

JimCampbell

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Part of the problem might be that certain Adobe apps and their formats are pretty much industry standards.

The Affinity suite will output all major print and web file types and has robust colour management, the problem is with cross-compatibility of live files between Adobe and the Serif stuff. Although Publisher will open .idml files and Designer will open .ai files, neither can save back to a file that is editable in the originating Adobe app. (In theory a PDF output from Designer should open as an editable file in Illustrator, but despite the PDF being 100% standards-compliant, Illustrator makes a mess of it. The dev team at Serif has looked at this issue more than once, and it's something that's happening at the Illustrator end of the workflow — even if it's not intentional, it doesn't seem very likely that Adobe will fix it, since it solely benefits people trying to migrate their workflow away from CC.)

If the OP could persuade their designer to do this job with the Affinity suite (it's not that much of a wrench to move over — the PS/AI/ID equivalents operate in pretty similar manner) as long as the workflow remains within those applications, the end print files will be indistinguishable from the same job done with Adobe apps. In fact, for a brochure, you'd probably only need Publisher, since Publisher recognises .psd and .ai files (with the "PDF compatible" option used) as valid, placeable image formats. If we're only talking about tweaking layouts and making text changes at the client end, the designer can do all the usual design/artwork elements in AI/PS, assemble and typeset the document in Publisher rather and InDesign and send the resulting .afpub file to the client for amends. Not, perhaps, the most elegant solution, but workable, I think.

[Edit: mentioned the wrong app in the final para.]
 

petard

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If the OP could persuade their designer to do this job with the Affinity suite (it's not that much of a wrench to move over — the PS/AI/ID equivalents operate in pretty similar manner) as long as the workflow remains within those applications, the end print files will be indistinguishable from the same job done with Adobe apps. In fact, for a brochure, you'd probably only need Publisher, since Designer recognises .psd and .ai files (with the "PDF compatible" option used) as valid, placeable image formats. If we're only talking about tweaking layouts and making text changes at the client end, the designer can do all the usual design/artwork elements in AI/PS, assemble and typeset the document in Publisher rather and InDesign and send the resulting .afpub file to the client for amends. Not, perhaps, the most elegant solution, but workable, I think.

You explained exactly what I was thinking. I will add that it may be very easy to persuade the designer. If they can climb the learning curve for Publisher (which is intended to be simple for people experienced with the Adobe tools) accommodating a customer this way is a solid way to to gain a repeat customer. It seems worth asking. And from the client perspective, you're gambling less than a month of a CC all apps subscription and less than two months of an Indesign subscription. That strikes me as a good bet if you like working with the designer.
 

stevenkan

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I don't need blazing performance; I just need to be able to open an .ai, .psd, or .indd document, 5-6 times per year, for an hour or two each time. And I don't want to pay $85 for a month's subscription every time I want to change a line of text.

Keep an old laptop in a desk drawer with your software installed on it.

Fire it up as needed on those 5-6 times a year and use it to make the minor document edits you mentioned.

Problem solved.

I was going to try this on an older MBP (2011) that I have lying around, but I couldn't get the CS6 apps to launch after I transferred them over. The Adobe licensing thing pops up and puts me in an endless loop of logging in, receiving a 2FA code by SMS, and then locking me out for 15 minutes. I never even get a chance to re-enter my serial number.

I was also thinking of updating my daily driver (mid-2014 MBP) to a recent OS so I could run the more recent Mac Office, and keep the 2011 'Book around for CS6, but it looks like that won't work.

If/when I take the plunge I'll to make my 2014 'Book the CS6 machine, and I can't update it, ever.

Which means I also can't run modern Office on it.

*sigh*

I also can't buy a new 'Book until there's a reasonable route to running x64 Windows apps, as I need to do that on a daily basis as well. RDPing into a remote box is NOT an option because I do a fair amount of work in secure facilities where I have zero network access.
 

stevenkan

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Unfortunately I really do need to use the "real" Adobe apps. The common use case is that I'm paying a designer, 12 times zones away, to lay out a brochure for me in InD. During the latter stages of the design/feedback/edit loop, I will find it a lot easier to open the actual InD document and make a dozen small edits to the copy and/or nudge a few photos, and then send the document back to the designer for finalizing. That's a lot faster than describing a dozen small copy edits and nudges, and going through the loop 3-4 times.

I do have an ancient-er 13" MBP that I could leave running for legacy apps, but I'd like to see if I can get something running an AS, even if it's dog-slow, so that I always have it with me.

Were I in this situation, I might be tempted to buy my designer a copy of the relevant Affinity app and pay them to use that instead.

Part of the problem might be that certain Adobe apps and their formats are pretty much industry standards.

Yup. This designer is on 99Designs, which is an offshoot of VistaPrint. VistaPrint wants InDesign documents, so the 99,000 designers on 99Designs use what VistaPrint wants.

There's no way I'm going to get a designer to use a non-Adobe product when all of her business comes through VistaPrint.
 

JimCampbell

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Yup. This designer is on 99Designs, which is an offshoot of VistaPrint. VistaPrint wants InDesign documents, so the 99,000 designers on 99Designs use what VistaPrint wants.

There's no way I'm going to get a designer to use a non-Adobe product when all of her business comes through VistaPrint.

The 99Designs spec clearly states that PDF is an acceptable format, and a PDF produced from Designer/Publisher would be indistinguishable from one produced by Illustrator or InDesign.

You don't want to go down that route? That's fine, but the Affinity option I described upthread is the only workflow I can think of that would get you a professional grade press-ready PDF at the end whilst allowing you and your designer to shuttle editable files between you during the correx/editing stage, without needing an Adobe CC sub of some description.
 

gabemaroz

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In the same vein, the designer could output to PDF and you could make changes in that using Affinity Publisher (so long as they preserve layers and you don't have anything terribly sophisticated going on – e.g. lots of shadows or 3D illustrator work).

I migrated from Adobe Illustrator / InDesign to Affinity Design / Publisher a few years ago. For what I do it was easy enough with minimal issues and in some cases I had to go that route – export to PDF and then re-open in Publisher.
 

JimCampbell

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In the same vein, the designer could output to PDF and you could make changes in that using Affinity Publisher (so long as they preserve layers and you don't have anything terribly sophisticated going on – e.g. lots of shadows or 3D illustrator work).

The problem with this is: although Affinity Publisher makes a decent fist of opening a multi-page PDF as an editable document how do you return the edited version to the original designer in a form they can continue to work on?

They can't open the PDF with InDesign (only import the pages as static images) and although, in theory, Illustrator should be able to open pages of the PDF as editable documents, in practise, it completely gubs the text boxes.

(As mentioned upthread, this has been raised with the Affinity devs at Serif and they've confirmed that the PDF output at their end is 100% standards-compliant, there's something screwy going on with the way the data is interpreted by Illustrator and I have literally zero expectation that Adobe is going to fix that.)
 

kefkafloyd

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At some point you have to wave goodbye to ten year old software unless you're willing to run vintage systems (with all the caveats that entails).

They can't open the PDF with InDesign (only import the pages as static images) and although, in theory, Illustrator should be able to open pages of the PDF as editable documents, in practise, it completely gubs the text boxes.

Illustrator never recognizes embedded fonts, but that's true of Illustrator editing a PDF produced by anything.
 

JimCampbell

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Illustrator never recognizes embedded fonts, but that's true of Illustrator editing a PDF produced by anything.

It's not specifically the fonts — it messes up text boxes, breaking the text up into lots of individual text-on-a-path segments, and not even consistently line-by-line (or even word-by-word) making the file essentially unusable since you can no longer select text in any meaningful way to work with it… :(
 

kefkafloyd

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Illustrator never recognizes embedded fonts, but that's true of Illustrator editing a PDF produced by anything.

It's not specifically the fonts — it messes up text boxes, breaking the text up into lots of individual text-on-a-path segments, and not even consistently line-by-line (or even word-by-word) making the file essentially unusable since you can no longer select text in any meaningful way to work with it… :(

This is the nature of editing any PDF that does not have Illustrator (or other Adobe) private data in it. When you edit a PDF that's been saved from AI, you're not actually editing PDF data, you're editing an AI file that's been stapled on to the PDF.

PDF text structure is not "text boxes," it really is textlines because of how it was derived from PostScript. This isn't unique to Affinity generated PDFs, it's just that AI (or Pitstop Pro) has no idea how to make a "text box" out of the given data.
 

JimCampbell

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This is the nature of editing any PDF that does not have Illustrator (or other Adobe) private data in it. When you edit a PDF that's been saved in AI, you're not actually editing a PDF, you're editing an AI file that's been stapled to it.

Of course it is — that's makes perfect sense. Thanks!

It's still slightly frustrating, though, because going the other way, Designer makes a really decent job of correctly interpreting text boxes… but I suppose it's in their interests to.