Inside the fight to force Vizio to share Linux-based source code for its TVs’ OS
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infernal666
Ars Praefectus
Anytime a company doesn't want to release source code it's because they are doing things they shouldn't, wonder how many servers those tv's are pinging over the course of a day....
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They want our lunch (the fruits of the open source community + contributing enterprises efforts) and to eat it too (to hide all their tracking and money-making activities).
They want to do it, not just publicly, but in our faces-- because they're hoping we can't do anything about it.
Major good wishes for the plaintiffs here. Vizio and all companies of their like piggybacking off of products meant to improve and enrich humanity as a whole can get stuffed.
They want to do it, not just publicly, but in our faces-- because they're hoping we can't do anything about it.
Major good wishes for the plaintiffs here. Vizio and all companies of their like piggybacking off of products meant to improve and enrich humanity as a whole can get stuffed.
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Isn't that something that should be known already? It's possible to analyze network traffic for a black box.
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solarbonite
Smack-Fu Master, in training
By the logic of "this is a source code license, not a contract," what is a "No Trespassing" sign?
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That's effectively impossible to avoid at this point. You can get commercial displays that are still dumb, but they are far more expensive and lag behind in tech. The best you can really do is not connect your TV to the network and hope that however it yells at you about that is not too annoying.
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Even if they have to cough up kernel changes, all the interesting stuff is in the application code. Simply running on Linux doesn't mean an application must be open source. TiVo has already gone through most of this stuff. The BIOS is set to only boot kernel images that are signed with TiVo's key which they aren't required to share.
So there probably isn't a way to build a 3rd party kernel that will boot.
So there probably isn't a way to build a 3rd party kernel that will boot.
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While I agree with most of your sentiment, I’m curious how you define “shouldn’t.” For example if pinging 100 servers a day is part of the agreement to get that TV for $150 as an ad-subsidized device, what is the solution? People can’t have it both ways.
I personally would love a nice sized high quality TV that is completely dumb, but I also understand that I’m not gonna get that without paying a premium. I welcome your thoughts on how to make it economically viable to the point where these OEM’s actually would even go for it.
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The Software Freedom Conservancy is fantastic. They are currently gearing up to take on Bambu Labs for AGPL violations.
To try to circumvent the AGPL and keep printer communications locked down, Bambu moved a bunch of functionality into a separate networking code project, which is loaded as a dynamic library into the core Bambu Studio software. The AGPL was designed for just such shenanigans: because the neither plugin nor Bambu Studio can provide full functionality alone, they are a "combined work".
Probably nobody would really care, except Bambu has invoke the Streisand Effect. An indie developer wrote a bridge between the open source Orca Slicer and the Bambu Networking plugin, using the open source pieces of Bambu Studio as documentation of the ABIs. Bambu Labs took exception, threatened him with legal action, he took down the project because lawyers are expensive, and then things got heated. Bambu then wrote a blog framing the whole thing as defending from attacks on their cloud infrastructure. And now things are getting really interesting.
Bambu makes great 3d printers, but man, they have a real talent for shooting themselves in the foot.
To try to circumvent the AGPL and keep printer communications locked down, Bambu moved a bunch of functionality into a separate networking code project, which is loaded as a dynamic library into the core Bambu Studio software. The AGPL was designed for just such shenanigans: because the neither plugin nor Bambu Studio can provide full functionality alone, they are a "combined work".
Probably nobody would really care, except Bambu has invoke the Streisand Effect. An indie developer wrote a bridge between the open source Orca Slicer and the Bambu Networking plugin, using the open source pieces of Bambu Studio as documentation of the ABIs. Bambu Labs took exception, threatened him with legal action, he took down the project because lawyers are expensive, and then things got heated. Bambu then wrote a blog framing the whole thing as defending from attacks on their cloud infrastructure. And now things are getting really interesting.
Bambu makes great 3d printers, but man, they have a real talent for shooting themselves in the foot.
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I have a crappy, and modestly-sized, Sharp-branded (but TCL-made?) TV set.
It’s several years old now, but still works perfectly. Well at least for OTA viewing, and HDMI inputs—I’ve never tried it’s ‘smart’ features, and never will. Needless to say: it has never been connected to the internet, and never will, either. And I hope that I don’t need to replace it; given the current ‘weaponized’ state of the TV set marketplace…
I’ll give up on watching TV (which I do a lot of), before I’ll ever connect any TV set to the ‘net.
BITE ME, TV vendors!
Edit: deleted typo character
It’s several years old now, but still works perfectly. Well at least for OTA viewing, and HDMI inputs—I’ve never tried it’s ‘smart’ features, and never will. Needless to say: it has never been connected to the internet, and never will, either. And I hope that I don’t need to replace it; given the current ‘weaponized’ state of the TV set marketplace…
I’ll give up on watching TV (which I do a lot of), before I’ll ever connect any TV set to the ‘net.
BITE ME, TV vendors!
Edit: deleted typo character
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I agree that Vizio needs to hand over the source code in compliance with the software licenses. But it’s highly unlikely that getting this source code will allow third parties to tweak the UI to do things mentioned in the article like add accessibility and remove ads.
I’ve developed software for Linux-based embedded devices. The interesting stuff is in the application layer and not in the kernel, so it won’t be included in the code that Vizio is required to hand over. At best, getting the source code will allow third parties to develop a complete replacement UI, and then of course that UI can have whatever accessibility the developers want (and presumably won’t have ads). But that’s a much bigger task than modifying the existing UI source code.
May the Source be with them.
I’ve developed software for Linux-based embedded devices. The interesting stuff is in the application layer and not in the kernel, so it won’t be included in the code that Vizio is required to hand over. At best, getting the source code will allow third parties to develop a complete replacement UI, and then of course that UI can have whatever accessibility the developers want (and presumably won’t have ads). But that’s a much bigger task than modifying the existing UI source code.
May the Source be with them.
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Is there some way in which "Vizio also argued that GPL is a software license, not a contract" is somehow less bafflingly stupid than it sounds?
Software licenses are contracts.
Software licenses are contracts.
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That is a straw man argument. For the past 60 years, the TV manufacturing industry has been economically viable without advertising inside the product.
It's just more profitable to add advertising. And once every manufacturer has gotten on the bandwagon, then it looks unviable not to do it, because ads let you sell the product at a loss. But that isn't an inherent property of a TV screen. That is a recent change in business models.
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Barring radical changes in legislation, here in the States, I give it, three, maybe five, if we're lucky, years tops before it becomes mandatory to maintain an active network connection, (After signing your soul away, via EULA ofc.) just to use the HDMI ports.
Honestly, I suspect the endgame will be everything but the ultra-premium, $25K+ models will be ripping off Telly, and constantly playing ads on top of ads. Hell, the poverty spec models will demand everything but literally "Drinking A Verification Can" hourly to keep functioning.
Normally I'd say I'm being hyperbolic but the fact that normies keep sleepwalking into Enshittification and 1984 ripoffs with only minor complaints, makes me despair for the future of technology. When did the coin-op apartment in Ubik become the Sci-Fi Home of the Future that we
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Because you can simply not connect it to the network, and use an Apple TV for your smart part. If it barks at you about no connection, box it up, take it back, and tell them it doesn’t work at your cabin in the woods.
(And first commenter to mention the non-existent, never-implemented “Ethernet-over-HDMI” gets a spankin’.)
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You clearly are having difficulties with the current state of corporate contract law. Licensees are only binding on corporate customers. The Great Unwashed. Superior life forms like corporations are free to ignore licenses as they see fit.
See also every single AI company and copyright "law"
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Wait, so software licenses (like, I dunno, Vizio's EULA, for instance) aren't contracts? Seems like they might want to rethink that argument.
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False my aunt bought a cheap dumb TV last year, they still sell them they just are harder to find. It has like half a smart TV the same size.
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There does seem to be a community of people who root their TVs! One older source is https://cani.rootmy.tv/
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Nice writup Scharon!
They should just release it! It's not as if more than 1% of Vizio owners are going to modify their firmware, nor will other manufacturers find some previously undiscovered some secret sauce (it's TV software running on a chip made to do just that.
If they promoted source code availability they'd have a hoard of folks who care telling everyone they know, "just get a Vizio".
They should just release it! It's not as if more than 1% of Vizio owners are going to modify their firmware, nor will other manufacturers find some previously undiscovered some secret sauce (it's TV software running on a chip made to do just that.
If they promoted source code availability they'd have a hoard of folks who care telling everyone they know, "just get a Vizio".
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They are complaining this is a "Third Party Action"
Yet I thought it said in the article that they (SFC) purchased the TVs so they are a customer and have inserted themselves into the "Contract"
Lawyers, though we don't like to admit it sometimes, are people too.
Yet I thought it said in the article that they (SFC) purchased the TVs so they are a customer and have inserted themselves into the "Contract"
Lawyers, though we don't like to admit it sometimes, are people too.
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This does feel like TiVo all over again, and "TiVoization" is what the later GPLv3 was set up to avoid. Also the GNU AGPL, which is relevant in the Bambu Labs case.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tivoization
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I think what they're trying to say is that the contract is supposed to be binding on the user, not the company. You know, because that's the world we live in now.
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When I upgraded my eight-year old Sony to a new LG Smart TV, I was bombarded by baloney. All my TVs play via Apple TV boxes, so a lot of stuff is filtered out. This latest TV was not playing nice at first as it kept annoying me with ads and dialogue boxes. I kept digging around until I turned off as much as possible. Pretty clean experience these days.
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Right, which is stupid. It wasn't the TV buyer in Wal-Mart that used the GPL to copy, modify, and redistribute the source code to the TV's OS. In fact, Vizio's position is that buyers aren't allowed to do that. The license clearly binds Vizio and not the customer in this case.
I have to cross all my fingers and toes that this is decided the way it should be so the GPL still has legal teeth.
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Most of the game console companies have done the same thing, but they've all been defeated. Keys have been extracted, BIOSes flashed, etc.
However, I don't know if there're enough people passionate about hacking a Vizio in the same way as they do for Nintendo, Sony, and Microsoft. I sure hope so.
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I think what they mean by that is the license only allows the copyright holder to bring legal action, not an end-user, who would be the third party here (after the copyright holder and the party redistributing the copyrighted material). I don't think I agree with them that the GPL prohibits third party action, though, and apparently neither does the SFC, who is quoted in the article as hoping this lawsuit will demonstrate the feasibility of the third-party complaint approach.
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My LG OLED never yells at me because it isn’t connected. It is an older C1, however.
If I buy a TV that does complain without an option to disable complaining, it is getting returned.
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I can confirm it's still that way - bought a C5 last year and have never once connected it to Wifi. It doesn't nag me at all unless I go into the menus and want to try to enable certain (unnecessary) features.
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I'm getting annoyed at the argument: "they have no right to sue us."
"You see, your honor, only the customer is allowed to sue us. Oh, but our EULA explicitly says the customer must do arbitration instead, so they can't sue us either. Come on, your honor, we've put a lot of work into making sure nobody is allowed to sue us, so we can do anything we want."
"You see, your honor, only the customer is allowed to sue us. Oh, but our EULA explicitly says the customer must do arbitration instead, so they can't sue us either. Come on, your honor, we've put a lot of work into making sure nobody is allowed to sue us, so we can do anything we want."
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I have my TVs (a cheap HiSense and a nicer LG) on a separate VLAN behind a firewall that restricts outbound access. Even when sleeping, many requests go out regularly to servers for Netflix, Spotify, etc. even though I have never used those apps or have an account configured for them.
However, more concerning to me are the other IPs and random DNS and SSL connections that are made.
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I have an LG OLED TV and their settings interface allowed to shut off the ads I was getting and now no more ads!
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Happy Monkey
Smack-Fu Master, in training
The intent is made clear later in the article, but paragraph 3's "code in executable form" seems like bad phrasing. "Enough code to generate the executables" or something like that perhaps?
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I wonder how many software company legal staffs are have a WTF! moment over Visio's claim in court that a 'software license isn't a contract' and therefore doesn't have to be followed 'for reasons'.
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