From <em>Akalabeth</em> to <em>Xenobia</em>, many rare PC titles are now considered elaborate scams.
Read the whole story
Read the whole story
Inside the $100K+ forgery scandal that’s roiling PC game collecting
- Thread starter JournalBot
- Start date
Upvote
2
(2
/
0)
Upvote
3
(3
/
0)
Everybody has seen those videos (seriously. Everybody. You can quit linking them now. *everyone has seen them*.) But they don't back up any claim you made. They don't say anything about fake games or about WATA directly selling games.
Maybe watch them again, and see what they actually say.
BTW, VGA wasn't really made "by and for retro game fans" either. It's just an additional nameplate on a company that already graded toys and cards. They saw a new area of business and moved into it. Before WATA showed up, hating on VGA for ruining the hobby was all the rage.
Upvote
-1
(5
/
-6)
Then you've misunderstood what I was saying, because that wasn't really my position. I'm saying WATA contributes to it through collusion. In fact the post you just quoted I directly said those words, and yes, there's been some recent cases of WATA selling forgeries. They didn't MAKE them. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying they're so bad at grading them the forgeries slid through. These two companies have done a lot of damage recently and don't deserve any sort of defense.
Anyway, you seem most uncharitable and I haven't enjoyed our interaction.
Upvote
3
(5
/
-2)
if they're using cracked versions on disk that's not very elaborate is it? seems like a CRAZY huge oversight on the scammer's part.
Upvote
1
(3
/
-2)
Yikes! Glad most of the things I collect aren't particularly valuable, just things I find interesting that I'm going to open and play around with.
The only softwre I've worried about being legit are a couple NOS copies of Windows I bought One a Windows 98 copy that had a bend on the corner of the CD sleeve that I think is just from the factory. The other a copy of Windows 7 where I was worried about how easily the serial sticker split on the perforation but after inspecting the discs and checking that the key is indeed a single license key and not a volume key it seems fully legit. My copies of DOS and Windows 3.1 are easily genuine, and I think faking all the documentation/manuals would make those prohibitive even if they were a desirable target for fakes
Oddly though Office 2010 has a metric ton of fake copies for sale online, MichaelMJD did a great set of videos on that topic and his difficulty even finding an actual genuine copy to compare to
iPods are another a hardware thing I've gotten into where fakes have popped up where sellers in China will fix up and repackage used iPods into repro boxes. It can be pretty easy to spot those fakes at least as the box details are pretty bad and the accessories packed inside will be either inaccurate or obvious fakes on packing and quality. If you're patient and don't buy listings with stock photos though you can thankfully find real new ones for a good deal now and then
The only softwre I've worried about being legit are a couple NOS copies of Windows I bought One a Windows 98 copy that had a bend on the corner of the CD sleeve that I think is just from the factory. The other a copy of Windows 7 where I was worried about how easily the serial sticker split on the perforation but after inspecting the discs and checking that the key is indeed a single license key and not a volume key it seems fully legit. My copies of DOS and Windows 3.1 are easily genuine, and I think faking all the documentation/manuals would make those prohibitive even if they were a desirable target for fakes
Oddly though Office 2010 has a metric ton of fake copies for sale online, MichaelMJD did a great set of videos on that topic and his difficulty even finding an actual genuine copy to compare to
iPods are another a hardware thing I've gotten into where fakes have popped up where sellers in China will fix up and repackage used iPods into repro boxes. It can be pretty easy to spot those fakes at least as the box details are pretty bad and the accessories packed inside will be either inaccurate or obvious fakes on packing and quality. If you're patient and don't buy listings with stock photos though you can thankfully find real new ones for a good deal now and then
Upvote
1
(1
/
0)
Upvote
1
(3
/
-2)
For really low effort value forgeries I'd agree.
And, that's sort of the rub here?
Personally, I don't specialize in forgeries. I have had various joint efforts in boutique custom packaging and similar work that mean I either have first hand experience or have done a reasonable amount of research in how to make authenticly industrial-esque but custom packaging in low volumes without industry grade mass manufacturing machinery.
And all of these forgeries described here are comedies of low effort work and unforced errors making them easy to spot, compared to what would be relatively reachable and far less detectable work.
Technically, sure, you can analyze the inks and dyes used for differences… IF you even have an original to compare with. More generally, if you can identify the original print shop (assuming it wasn't a garage, which can be the case with some of these games even) you can find other product from there to use as a basis. Dyes do change formulation over time, yes, which helps if we're not assuming excessive effort. Dyes also degrade over time, which can be chemically checked compared to simply a lighter/diluted printing to stimulate fading (versus applied UV/heat/humidity process actual fading).
But that's all getting way afield from the basics: properly recreating or at least photo editing for recreation isn't hard, even from a degraded source (time consuming, yes). Low color/single color screen printing isn't hard, or even expensive. Even when using digital originals via photolithography, it's all easy and cheap and accessible these days, mostly just requiring a space to do it in. With the money involved, even more complex screen printing isn't hard. Recreating alignment disparities is easy, for one offs, even without the same process machinery. Pad printing isn't hard. Embossing isn't hard. With modern technology, creating custom dies/stamps for short run use is ludicrously easy even. Nothing here even requires getting into more expensive machinery like high res dye sublimation would.
In short, doing this well enough to be *difficult* to spot without some kind of involved chemical analysis and/or a verified original present for comparison of things like exact cardboard/paper used (and a truly good forger with access to the original will have sourced appropriately composed goods there that it will also require microscopy or chemical analysis too) isn't, actually, difficult. It can be, certainly, time consuming (particularly when discussing things which are supposed to be aged and previously handled, but it's not as if related art world techniques are out of reach there). But the current fiasco being reported on here is a comedy of relatively easy to spot low effort amateur slop.
Even before we get to the ridiculous digital aspects and failure to edit out things like crack tags/etc (at minimum enough to beat CRC checks against circulating cracks if unable to procure an authentic original digital copy, and there are multiple ways to do that without affecting how the code runs), much less adding in anything like bitwise data degradation/etc.
Or, beyond even failing to get paper with the same water marks as the original, using paper with a watermark at all, and failing to account for it as can be done. Etc.
All I'm saying is that, as someone who doesn't even involve herself in forging, I can immediately tell you that I could recreate these well enough to not be spotted by any of the methods listed in the article, without even needing to do additional research, just from what I know off hand about modern print and packaging techniques and a little common sense applied on top. There's things in there that sound like failure to account for bleed in the print layout even. I'm sure an actual dedicated forger, instead of this disgracefully low effort comedy hour crap, would have no problems exceeding what I could do with basic processes I'm already familiar with.
And that should give anyone even remotely thinking of collecting mass produced goods--especially relatively modern ones--at these kinds of prices some serious pause. If the money is worth spending for your feel good vibes of nostalgia when you touch that thing, GREAT. Go you. Enjoy it, and whatever you spent is hopefully in a personally disposable income category of "if it makes me feel good why not spend that amount of money, it's just sitting in an account otherwise doing nothing for me directly". Because, then, if the fake is good enough that you don't spot it, it doesn't really matter in terms of your own enjoyment.
But if that's not the case, or if you think you're somehow making a good investment/etc, or going to be rich in 20 years when you put your copy up on Sotheby's/Christie's… maybe rethink that a little, unless you're going to involve an actual expert in a very serious way. It's simply far too easy to forge this type of thing to a level that's not THIS easily detectable (e.g. with at most just a magnifying lens/macro inspection), for anyone with access to originals and more than basement level attention to detail/common sense. The multi-copy machine production methods of the "originals" mean that no real talent/etc is required, unlike forging art/artistic pieces.
Upvote
15
(15
/
0)
I didn't know there was a market for old iPods ?
I have the original 1st or 2nd gen iPod lying around (firewire) & I believe it still works, along with a few iPod Nano's
Upvote
-1
(1
/
-2)
Your original post literally said this:
"Incidentally, WETA have notoriously sold actual forgeries for insanely marked up prices."
It is still right there in the quotes above. You said that. You didn't provide any evidence of it. Instead you linked to Karl's videos, which make entirely different allegations that have nothing to do with "actual forgeries" or WATA selling games.
All I'm saying is, instead of randomly making up bad stuff and then linking to Karl's videos and saying "oh Karl said WATA did some bad stuff so I made up some other bad stuff, that's fine right?", stick to things that have some kind of basis in reality.
Upvote
5
(8
/
-3)
Damn. I need to go through my old boxes to find some of my late 80's games. I think I got a King's Quest and misc other games. They're definitely original, unless they were forged in the late 80's and sold in stores.
But back then it was mostly aboutpirating sharing. I have a huge archive of penciled in Atari floppies.
But back then it was mostly about
Upvote
2
(2
/
0)
aha... yeah I played the crap out of Ultima UW 1 & 2 & swore someday that when I was able to afford it, I would buy a legit copy, which I did years later
Amusingly, my sealed copies are from another UW fan (Sir Cabirus) and I may still have his initial emails, though we lost touch in later years
I think Thief 1 & 2 are the only other games with such a fanbase, that I knew of, back in the day
Upvote
0
(1
/
-1)
My parents recently sent me my old portfolio of Pokemon cards that's been sitting in storage for at least 20 years. I doubt they're actually worth more than the card stock they're printed on, but I figure I'll take them somewhere to get them appraised for the fun of it. If it turns out they are valuable, I'll send the proceeds back to my parents for getting them to buy me those cards back in the day.
Upvote
6
(6
/
0)
Hey, you're one up on me - at least he's not (yet) calling you a sock puppet or swearing at you, but maybe that's only because he's not that interested in this topic.
Upvote
-1
(1
/
-2)
Fraud and grift: disconcerting.
Also disconcerting: That ostensibly intelligent humans will pay a 100 large for ancient-ass code... on ancient-ass decrepit storage media...that only runs on ancient-ass equipment that is near impossible to source...and repair...and maintain...
...because "reasons".
And that the "ancient" in ancient-ass is, what? Like, 40 years ago MAX just has to be the cherry on top of this insane sundae.
War in Europe, the Amazon burns, authoritarian assholes on the march planet-wide, but YOU, dude, YOU definitely empty your 401K for that Leisure Suit Larry. It's good value. Faaaawkkk.
Also disconcerting: That ostensibly intelligent humans will pay a 100 large for ancient-ass code... on ancient-ass decrepit storage media...that only runs on ancient-ass equipment that is near impossible to source...and repair...and maintain...
...because "reasons".
And that the "ancient" in ancient-ass is, what? Like, 40 years ago MAX just has to be the cherry on top of this insane sundae.
War in Europe, the Amazon burns, authoritarian assholes on the march planet-wide, but YOU, dude, YOU definitely empty your 401K for that Leisure Suit Larry. It's good value. Faaaawkkk.
Upvote
-19
(2
/
-21)
Yeah, cause until the whole world is utopia nobody should get to do anything they might enjoy! /s
Upvote
10
(10
/
0)
So what the fuck are you doing whining in the comments when there are children starving in Africa, tough guy?
Upvote
23
(24
/
-1)
Upvote
0
(2
/
-2)
Racle’s full post is damning of Ricciardi. It’s clear from the photographic evidence that Ricciardi had the legitimate copies of the games and had fakes shipped to Racle.
Upvote
8
(8
/
0)
In my family, we had an example of a document verification go a bit wrong a number of years ago.
During the First World War, there was a nurse that ran a hospital in Belgium for called Edith Cavell. To cut a long story short, she was eventually shot by the Germans as a spy and it was a huge story in the UK at the time (there's a statue of her in Central London, etc.). My Great Aunt (Ruth Moore) was one of the nurses she oversaw and at the time, Edith Cavell was her legal guardian due to my Great Aunt's young age.
Before she was executed, Cavell wrote a letter that's became reasonably famous. For about ninety years, ou family thought we had the original as shortly after Cavell's execution, Ruth Moore travelled to Morocco in fear of her own life. We even had this letter verified as the original by the Imperial War Museum - who really are experts in this kind of stuff - about 15 years ago.
My Mum took this letter and some other paraphinalia that we have to the Antiques Roadshow (a popular UK TV show that values items, etc. It's been going for years) and they filmed their 'bit' to show on TV. A few weeks later, we got a call from them wanting to check the letter again (Mum had taken the expert's assessment with her to the filming) and they did more research and after a few months it was concluded that it was a copy in Cavell's handwriting, not the 'original'. This led to some other TV stuff with the BBC for my Mum and a few entries in a book about the First World War and an author got in touch because they wanted to see our collection.
The point is that even one of the top experts in their field got it wrong to start with beacuse of the rarity of the item. As other posts have alluded to, eyes on rare objects and combining knowledge and resources is the best way to find discrepancies or to discover the true provenance of an item. The Internet is great for that and we must not rely on just one or two sources purely on trust because even without malicious intent, this stuff is difficult enough.
In no way is this a defence of the subject of the article. There's clearly some malpractice going on there - but it's enabled by this false rarification of the knowledge.
During the First World War, there was a nurse that ran a hospital in Belgium for called Edith Cavell. To cut a long story short, she was eventually shot by the Germans as a spy and it was a huge story in the UK at the time (there's a statue of her in Central London, etc.). My Great Aunt (Ruth Moore) was one of the nurses she oversaw and at the time, Edith Cavell was her legal guardian due to my Great Aunt's young age.
Before she was executed, Cavell wrote a letter that's became reasonably famous. For about ninety years, ou family thought we had the original as shortly after Cavell's execution, Ruth Moore travelled to Morocco in fear of her own life. We even had this letter verified as the original by the Imperial War Museum - who really are experts in this kind of stuff - about 15 years ago.
My Mum took this letter and some other paraphinalia that we have to the Antiques Roadshow (a popular UK TV show that values items, etc. It's been going for years) and they filmed their 'bit' to show on TV. A few weeks later, we got a call from them wanting to check the letter again (Mum had taken the expert's assessment with her to the filming) and they did more research and after a few months it was concluded that it was a copy in Cavell's handwriting, not the 'original'. This led to some other TV stuff with the BBC for my Mum and a few entries in a book about the First World War and an author got in touch because they wanted to see our collection.
The point is that even one of the top experts in their field got it wrong to start with beacuse of the rarity of the item. As other posts have alluded to, eyes on rare objects and combining knowledge and resources is the best way to find discrepancies or to discover the true provenance of an item. The Internet is great for that and we must not rely on just one or two sources purely on trust because even without malicious intent, this stuff is difficult enough.
In no way is this a defence of the subject of the article. There's clearly some malpractice going on there - but it's enabled by this false rarification of the knowledge.
Upvote
10
(10
/
0)
The Italian paper made me think about Galileo's ultra rare and expensive ($500K~$1m) "Sidereus nuncius" book that have been forged and has mislead even the most specialized of experts. The forger used blank paper from the 15th century to make it looks like an original. If you're into forgeries and detective works about how to spot them you should check about it.
A press article around the topic : https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013 ... -rare-book
Book in French detailing all about this forgery : http://www.zones-sensibles.org/collecti ... ntrefacon/
A press article around the topic : https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013 ... -rare-book
Book in French detailing all about this forgery : http://www.zones-sensibles.org/collecti ... ntrefacon/
Upvote
4
(4
/
0)
We're getting somewhat off topic, but there was also a similar story on ars a while back where the paper of a forgery was period authentic but the ink was determined to contain modern components: https://meincmagazine.com/science/2021/09 ... sis-finds/
Upvote
4
(4
/
0)
If you're interested, I have some forgeries I can sell you. Genuine ones, with interesting stories. No real copies and no forged forgeries, 100% guaranteed.
Upvote
6
(6
/
0)
A few years (2008) ago I saw that in Germany people were showing up in hospitals with some mysterious illness. It turned out that it was lead poisoning. They were all buying their weed from someone whose brilliant idea to make more money was to mix lead dust in with the weed they were selling.
https://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/15/health/15glob.html
If there's money to be made, someone is going to find a way to cheat.
https://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/15/health/15glob.html
If there's money to be made, someone is going to find a way to cheat.
Upvote
0
(0
/
0)
PetterOfCats
Wise, Aged Ars Veteran
How are these disks from 40+ years ago still readable? or better yet, why are people even expecting them to be at least to the point of collecting them? Even in an untouched, hermetically sealed laboratory environments we are talking maybe a maximum life span of 30 years.
Upvote
-1
(1
/
-2)
Interesting article, what a blast of nostalgia.
I was 12-14 in the early 80's, and even played some of these games. But the first one I actually bought for myself was Wizardry: Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord. No I didn't pirate the others - my junior high had a computer club (technically Wargaming Club that also had a computer section) and once every semester we'd all chip in or maybe sell cookies or something and buy a game that was kept at school, available for everyone to play via a schedule, on the available Apple 2 or Atari 800.
I didn't ever buy that many games - they were expensive, $50 as I recall!! and as a kid I'd have to save my allowance for weeks/months to do that - and even if I had saved them I'm thinking my original copies of Wizardry (also 2 and 3: Knight of Diamonds, Legacy of LLylgamyn), Telengard, oh geez some Infocom games Enchanter? Sorcerer?, and Bard's Tale... weren't rare enough to be of any actual value.
Maybe the original boxes for some of those would be rare - Enchanter and Sorcerer were the size of vinyl albums, would look ridiculous today.
These collectors are going after games from 10 years before that. You'd need a mix of luck, foresight, love of an obscure hobby (at the time) AND well just being older to afford buying legit copies of games from the late 70's and early 80's, and then save them for 40 more years.
I was 12-14 in the early 80's, and even played some of these games. But the first one I actually bought for myself was Wizardry: Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord. No I didn't pirate the others - my junior high had a computer club (technically Wargaming Club that also had a computer section) and once every semester we'd all chip in or maybe sell cookies or something and buy a game that was kept at school, available for everyone to play via a schedule, on the available Apple 2 or Atari 800.
I didn't ever buy that many games - they were expensive, $50 as I recall!! and as a kid I'd have to save my allowance for weeks/months to do that - and even if I had saved them I'm thinking my original copies of Wizardry (also 2 and 3: Knight of Diamonds, Legacy of LLylgamyn), Telengard, oh geez some Infocom games Enchanter? Sorcerer?, and Bard's Tale... weren't rare enough to be of any actual value.
Maybe the original boxes for some of those would be rare - Enchanter and Sorcerer were the size of vinyl albums, would look ridiculous today.
These collectors are going after games from 10 years before that. You'd need a mix of luck, foresight, love of an obscure hobby (at the time) AND well just being older to afford buying legit copies of games from the late 70's and early 80's, and then save them for 40 more years.
Upvote
2
(2
/
0)
They're not. Maybe 7 years at most of detailed tran history would be retained by issuers and/or processors, and more like 3-5 years would be in a form available for cardholders to see. Data retention policies vary, so this is a generalization.
Source: I worked for a credit / debit card processor for 20 years.
Upvote
3
(3
/
0)
erm... its the literal opposite of ewaste
Whatever you think of the monetary values, having these old electronic things be conserved/reused as part of a collection, prevents them from getting dumped in a landfill (eg Atari E.T. carts)
Upvote
6
(6
/
0)
I'm beginning to suspect this Snazster fellow may not be too bright.
Upvote
1
(1
/
0)
Thank you for this awesome and well-written article. This is why I subscribe to ARS. This is the era of gaming that I grew up on and have great nostalgia for. I'm not a collector but I do still have many of my old original games because, to this day, they are my favorite games of all time--these old RPG games, represent, in my opinion, peak RPGing. I didn't know this community existed and now I am a better person for knowing.
Upvote
1
(1
/
0)
Much like Spirit and Opportunity, a lot of these old things have managed to survive long past the point they were projected to. For my part, I've done some things to improve longevity. For one, I never use the disk to play the game directly, always prefering to install to a flashy new had drive. Secondly, I use an old computer to get the files off the disk in the first place. Modern USB floppy drives don't read the disks down to the sub level that older drives did. Oh and, once I do get the game off there, I immediately format and copy the data right back as a disk image. The disk itself often can survive much longer than the data it's meant to preserve, so this tends to keep that data going strong for years to come.
Now, there's a caveat. When I can, I "crack" these games after that process. It gives it a better chance of lasting if the game isn't depending on obscure floppy writing tricks to copyright protect itself. I only apply cracks that don't edit the cracker's name into the game in some way. Sometimes this means I have to hex edit the thing myself, but there's lots of documentation out there on how the cracks were done for me to fall back on. I'm just glad that, past a certain point, floppy games all just gave up on special on-disk protection methods.
Upvote
0
(0
/
0)
Right?! These articles always make me think of the night me, my sister, and my buddy frisbeed my Disney 45s records at each other, shattering every one of them (that scene from Shaun of the Dead also reminds me)
Not sure, how much that vinyl would be worth now, and I honestly don't wanna know. Same with my 70s/80s era comics I sold for gas $ or any of the other kids crap I actually, ya know, played with.
Upvote
2
(2
/
0)
Now my mindset when it comes to collecting is "If the game sounds fun, I want to play the best and/or most authentic version of it". If I'm especially into one, I want to see all the variations like director's cuts of movies and such. I've never wanted to get "every single game", and I never get a game without an intent to actually play it at some point.
So, to me, the most confusing mindset is the person who just wants to OWN a huge game collection, a "complete" set of NES games for example, and they just want to leave all of them sitting in their original boxes on a shelf until the day they die. I don't get that at all.
Upvote
2
(2
/
0)
Oh, I agree that the "collector" mindset is just general consumerism on meth - but I'm one of those weird assholes that doesn't tie my happiness to material things. I honestly don't understand how that particular "consumerist" mindset even works. I was raised as an army brat, and one of the clearest memories of every time we moved to a different continent on a week's notice was carrying any boxes we hadn't unpacked from the last move down to the "free crap" area (if it wasn't important enough to unpack, it obviously wasn't important enough to keep)
However... I think I'll go with a rough quote from the movie Way of the Gun for this one:
"Money is what you put in your pocket, it's what you take to the store to buy groceries with. $15 million isn't money, it's a motive with a universal adaptor."
Maybe a different way to put it: I dated this lesbian for a few months (I'm male) and at a party one evening, I got drunkenly upset when she disappeared into the bedroom with her ex-girlfriend so I walked my ass on home. Found out the next morning that they were waiting on me to join them...
I never put effort into getting laid, much less trying for a threesum, but there's a BIG difference between working for something and having that something handed to you and promptly failing at it.
Upvote
-4
(1
/
-5)
I'm sorry but I really don't get what you were trying to get across with that last story, but the idea of not really tying yourself to material things and having more of a "wandering spirit" makes sense. For my part, I like my stuff, but only in so far as I can do things with that stuff.
Upvote
1
(1
/
0)
Same thing I was trying to get across with the first story - just because I don't really care about something, whether speculative financial investing (because I'm a socialist and firm anti-capitalist) or crazy drunken three-way sex (because I'm autistic and really just don't care for social interaction in general) does not mean that I won't feel like an asshole for accidentally/ignorantly destroying something that others *do* care about.
I care about my stuff, too, but it's *all* useful and regularly used. Probably the only difference is that I can carry all of it with me as I move to a new state by Greyhound bus (and have done so multiple times)
Back on topic, though - I may not be a collector of physical things, but I *do* have 10,000+ downloaded user-created items for SimCity 4, another 8000+ for Baldur's Gate 2 (neither of which are rare games by even a Qanon level stretching of imagination), and at one point I had 150,000+ songs on an old computer. I never use even a decent fraction of the downloaded stuff, but I've still got 3/4s of my hard-drive completely empty so it's not like it's taking up any needed space or costing any valuable resources... I'm rambling, lol. Sorry!
As many other posters have mentioned (including you, IIRC), they seem to get a sense of "completeness" from having everything from a favorite creator or company. This I do understand, as my old musics collection had complete discographies (at the time) of most of my favorite artists (gotta love listening to David Bowie for 4 hours straight and not hearing the same song twice)
Like you said, "collecting" things I like and will use is only human, but spending $ on something just to put it in storage and not use it is... Just weird.
Upvote
-3
(1
/
-4)
Alright, though honestly I don't get the three way story at all. That's kinda distracting me from everything else and I'm going to pretend I didn't hear it.
Upvote
2
(2
/
0)
I think it was just a made-up story to make a point about valuing things you earn over things you're given.[url=https://meincmagazine.com/civis/viewtopic.php?p=40988843#p40988843:22ean6yo said:
A better made-up analogy would've been about the call he didn't take from Ed McMahon, or the lottery ticket he didn't pickup off the ground that turned out to be worth millions.
Upvote
1
(1
/
0)
I don't know if it's made up or not. Eh, either way I'm not sure that was the point. I think he was talking more about valuing experiences than belongings? Something like that?
Upvote
0
(0
/
0)