Humans vs Solar System

Shavano

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The first phase of attempted colonization will be by libertarians and they'll all die. They might be followed a few years later by colonizies sponsored and controlled by Earth governments, mainly with the intent of preventing other Earth governments from gaining a preemptive foothold. It's arguably the second best place in the solar system for humans to live, since it has fairly abundant hydrogen, and gravity. The moon sucks for not having good sources of hydrogen (and I think nitrogen?) Both of those are essential to making humans.
 

Shavano

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Not sure you'd bother with roads?

Theres very little atmos so a Maglev/hyperloop system above ground? And tunnels locally.

Labour will be by robot mostly

definitely most people in space would need to live underground, but maglev will be, like on Earth, a giant waste of resources. Whether it will be considered practical to make long tunnels between places on planets/planetoids seems like a maybe but probably not. No matter how much you reduce the cost of labor it's still a cost. Those robots could be doing something easier/faster than drilling tunnels.
 

.劉煒

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The first phase of attempted colonization will be by libertarians and they'll all die. They might be followed a few years later by colonizies sponsored and controlled by Earth governments, mainly with the intent of preventing other Earth governments from gaining a preemptive foothold. It's arguably the second best place in the solar system for humans to live, since it has fairly abundant hydrogen, and gravity. The moon sucks for not having good sources of hydrogen (and I think nitrogen?) Both of those are essential to making humans.
lol what makes you think that?
 

NervousEnergy

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The first phase of attempted colonization will be by libertarians and they'll all die. They might be followed a few years later by colonizies sponsored and controlled by Earth governments, mainly with the intent of preventing other Earth governments from gaining a preemptive foothold. It's arguably the second best place in the solar system for humans to live, since it has fairly abundant hydrogen, and gravity. The moon sucks for not having good sources of hydrogen (and I think nitrogen?) Both of those are essential to making humans.
lol what makes you think that?
Probably a reference to the pioneer mindset which is often one of running from existing societal restrictions. I don't think it would work in the first place - everyone living for more than a few hours in LEO or going to mars for a tour will be (like they always have been) living the most micro-controlled life it's possible to live, as any other lifestyle certainly would result in 'they'll all die'. The issue is cost - those initial colonists will bear part of the amortization of trillions. 'Free spirits' / libertarians / contrarians wouldn't be allowed within miles of those first ships, unless they're paying top dollar for an early ticket (probably 8 or 9 figures.)
 

BitPoet

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Not sure you'd bother with roads?

Theres very little atmos so a Maglev/hyperloop system above ground? And tunnels locally.

Labour will be by robot mostly

definitely most people in space would need to live underground, but maglev will be, like on Earth, a giant waste of resources. Whether it will be considered practical to make long tunnels between places on planets/planetoids seems like a maybe but probably not. No matter how much you reduce the cost of labor it's still a cost. Those robots could be doing something easier/faster than drilling tunnels.
Yep, for a plane on Mars, the dV is pretty low to get from point A to point B, since atmospheric drag is so low.

The other option is high speed rail, maybe with a cover to minimize dust from covering the tracks too much. Again, aero is less of a concern, but it's a solved problem in denser atmospheres.
 

RobDickinson

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Yep, for a plane on Mars, the dV is pretty low to get from point A to point B, since atmospheric drag is so low.

The other option is high speed rail, maybe with a cover to minimize dust from covering the tracks too much. Again, aero is less of a concern, but it's a solved problem in denser atmospheres.


A plane?

whut?
 

demultiplexer

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Yep, for a plane on Mars, the dV is pretty low to get from point A to point B, since atmospheric drag is so low.

The other option is high speed rail, maybe with a cover to minimize dust from covering the tracks too much. Again, aero is less of a concern, but it's a solved problem in denser atmospheres.


A plane?

whut?

Planes as in airbreathing self-propelled planes are not really what's been proposed for Mars, think more steerable projectiles ejected by mass drivers. And you can get really far with that concept on a <1% air density, 40% gravity place like Mars.

The big issue with trying to 'use' another planet is that almost any place you'd like to go has extremely little infrastructure and simultaneously extremely low resource density - at least the resources you can get at early on. So you need to travel large distances quickly. And ideally, you need to do that propellantless because mass is expensive. So indeed - high-speed rail, mass drivers and active support structures are the way to go.
 

MilleniX

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The key point of an airplane is it heavier than atmosphere vehicle that generates more than its weight in lift.

Thats not ever going to be a thing on Mars until we've terraformed it
We already have that in a helicopter. Fixed-wing airplanes can do better in payload capacity. I think I've read about people running the numbers on prospective designs, and they're fine.
 

Shavano

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Yep, for a plane on Mars, the dV is pretty low to get from point A to point B, since atmospheric drag is so low.

The other option is high speed rail, maybe with a cover to minimize dust from covering the tracks too much. Again, aero is less of a concern, but it's a solved problem in denser atmospheres.


A plane?

whut?

Planes as in airbreathing self-propelled planes are not really what's been proposed for Mars, think more steerable projectiles ejected by mass drivers. And you can get really far with that concept on a <1% air density, 40% gravity place like Mars.

The big issue with trying to 'use' another planet is that almost any place you'd like to go has extremely little infrastructure and simultaneously extremely low resource density - at least the resources you can get at early on. So you need to travel large distances quickly. And ideally, you need to do that propellantless because mass is expensive. So indeed - high-speed rail, mass drivers and active support structures are the way to go.

No they're not. The way to go is solar powered wheeled transports, at least in early stages. Later on you'll develop them so they can lay tracks that can reduce cost.

High speed? Not early on. Eventually there will ordinary rail transport, which has speeds that are plenty fast enough because people won't be going a lot of places, just goods/materials. The earliest iterations of that will be light. Fortunately, on Mars and anyplace else humans are likely to settle in space, lighter rails/railcars will be able to transport larger cargoes with less energy than on Earth.

There's no reason to expect Mars or anywhere else to implement high speed rail within the first 100 years of colonization, just like Earth didn't need high speed rail to extend transport networks over continents.
 

demultiplexer

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That is a very different kind of view on extraterrestrial exploration, though. I'm a much bigger fan of the science fiction angle on this subject, because I feel it does make more sense if you start looking at this from a higher-level perspective.

In particular, what actual use are you going to get from just sitting in one place very far away from earth? Assuming we're talking transient space exploration, not a fully developed interstellar species, you're probably spending exorbitant amounts of propellant (mass) and energy to even get to that place, and you're not going to stay there for generations. The type of transport you already need is high-cost. You're probably going back or to some other place in fairly short timespans, say weeks or months. There's little useful research to be done on tiny samples that can be gathered anywhere by that point, the type of research we'd probably be interested in is of the order of 'how can we terraform this planet' or 'what happened millions of years ago'. Mine-sized excavations, energy on the gigawatt-scale, etc. are roughly where you'll be at the point that you're actively ferrying people around the (inner) solar system. Not to mention: you need to make stuff, a lot of stuff, to facilitate launches from the planet.

It just doesn't make any sense to me to have mars rover style transportation or something else slow and cumbersome in such resource-poor and useless places. Why, in this hypothetical scenario, devote 95% of your Mars economy to launch materials and settle for 30mph bumper cars for local travel? Especially considering interesting places are quite far apart and your time there is limited.

That's why science fiction and near-future space exploration nerds generally envision high-speed transportation (with everybody having their favorite flavor) as a cornerstone or even initial building block of space colonization. Like on earth, good infrastructure makes everything else a lot easier.
 

Dmytry

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I think either you can find all the minerals you need in ~one location, or the colonization is pretty much a doomed project. Long railroads (or any other kinds of roads) would use a lot of steel or other resources to construct.

Ultimately things like that only make sense when there is already a lot of settled population and large amounts of material that need to be moved. If you have a city in location A and iron ore in location B thousands of kilometers away, you're doing it wrong.

At most you could have an outpost that's mining some rare minerals (and then flying small amounts of refined product to the main manufacturing hub).
 

demultiplexer

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All of that disagreement basically stems from different ways of looking at space exploration.

You can look at space exploration from the perspective of 'doing more stuff like we're doing now'. Don't do $25B/year worth of science in space, but $250B/year. Surely, that will be ten times as good! Instead of sending a dozen people to near-earth space and/or the moon, build a 100-person tiny habitat to act as a moon base.

Like earlier in the thread, I'm very skeptical and critical of this kind of thinking as it's ultimately quite pointless. There is nothing in space that we don't already have - and have much better - on earth. All elements we need for earthbound ventures are right here on our planet, and there's probably already extensive supply chains for them. The type of things we might want to do in space or on other planets can be done just fine without humans physically being there. So there is no real need to... do anything to establish more than a PR stunt on the surface of Mars.

So rather, I view space exploration as a true establishment of our society outside of earth. Not a temporary outpost or scientific research station, but at least a best effort towards establishing a complete local economy with everything that has to entail. This doesn't mean we have to plop down a fully formed society at once, of course this will be a gradual build-up with - initially - a lot of leaning on Earth resources and flying in resources that are initially scarce on Mars. But there's a fundamental difference in setting yourself up for a temp base or PR project versus setting yourself up to try to properly colonize a planet. In the first instance, you can work from a template and stop development on particular technologies (like launch cost reducing methods) at some point. Because it will be enough, and doing more is just a waste of money.

If your goal is to not just set up a single base but continuously interact with a separate but connected economy outside of earth, there are incentives to continuously improve upon things like launch methods. There are incentives to invest big in the long-term future, rather than just iterate on current technology. Suddenly, an investment of 20 or 30 billion into a skyhook or moon-based mass driver becomes much more palatable to governments and peoples. These are somewhat large amounts of money, but still tiny investments for large economies or earth's economy as a whole to make, and fundamentally change the pace and scale of space exploration.

Because indeed, if all you're doing is using chemical rockets to get stuff into space, it's going to be hundreds of years before we have anything beyond an ISS-sized base on Mars. Within our lifetimes, maybe we can set up a single manned mission and the chances of that being one-way are pretty big. It's neat and it's certainly going to be a monument of our society, but it's not the start of something more. It's more like the end point.

If we decide to expand our economy beyond Earth, suddenly we can have cheap spaceflight in our lifetimes, and actual cities on Mars as well. Contrary to popular belief, it's not actually fundamentally that hard to do stuff in space, we're just doing it in extremely wasteful ways as those are easy to do without establishing space-based infrastructure first. But just for some perspective: it only takes 60MJ or about 2kWh per kg of mass to get to Mars. Wholesale, that's a few bucks worth of energy per person. To get an entire car with one person into space - a massively inefficient way of going about things - takes a few dozen dollars worth of energy. But right now, we're not even that 'efficient' - we're spending about a thousand times as much energy as we should need to get stuff into space, because we're using propellant and the rocket equation is a bitch.

You don't need any new or advanced technology to fix this. Just put a (series of) skyhook(s) in space. Sure, we have to use rockets to get the hook there and that's going to be a LOT of rockets, but once it's there, suddenly spaceflight is 1/100th the cost. Or if you're not a fan of skyhooks, consider high-altitude mass drivers.

And to expand this further - the same applies to Mars itself. Infrastructure has this magical way of paying for itself many times over if you plan ahead. I'm especially progressive on this point as I'm in the camp of prioritizing infrastructure before a real economy has really been fully established. Basically the first thing I'd consider doing on Mars would be to build a mass driver in situ, both for launching into orbit and traveling around the planet.
 

Shavano

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That is a very different kind of view on extraterrestrial exploration, though. I'm a much bigger fan of the science fiction angle on this subject, because I feel it does make more sense if you start looking at this from a higher-level perspective.

In particular, what actual use are you going to get from just sitting in one place very far away from earth? Assuming we're talking transient space exploration, not a fully developed interstellar species, you're probably spending exorbitant amounts of propellant (mass) and energy to even get to that place, and you're not going to stay there for generations. The type of transport you already need is high-cost. You're probably going back or to some other place in fairly short timespans, say weeks or months. There's little useful research to be done on tiny samples that can be gathered anywhere by that point, the type of research we'd probably be interested in is of the order of 'how can we terraform this planet' or 'what happened millions of years ago'. Mine-sized excavations, energy on the gigawatt-scale, etc. are roughly where you'll be at the point that you're actively ferrying people around the (inner) solar system. Not to mention: you need to make stuff, a lot of stuff, to facilitate launches from the planet.

It just doesn't make any sense to me to have mars rover style transportation or something else slow and cumbersome in such resource-poor and useless places. Why, in this hypothetical scenario, devote 95% of your Mars economy to launch materials and settle for 30mph bumper cars for local travel? Especially considering interesting places are quite far apart and your time there is limited.

That's why science fiction and near-future space exploration nerds generally envision high-speed transportation (with everybody having their favorite flavor) as a cornerstone or even initial building block of space colonization. Like on earth, good infrastructure makes everything else a lot easier.

Before you can have a very large built-out infrastructure, you need to have already solved the problem of gathering the resources you built it out of. That means the first settlements, if they are ever built, will be built in places that have most of the resources you need within a short distance. Don't think of a train that transports ore from the mine to the smelter to to the colony. Think of the colony being built *in the mine*.
 

DeedlitCryogenic

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I've been reading a very good paper on the Psyche mission. Looks like our mass estimates still have big enough error bars that we still aren't sure how porous 16 Psyche is, nor the metal content, nor what type of silicates it has. We'll know in about 6 yeas, I guess?

I'm also going to attempt to recreate the mineral proportions the 3 best estimates on the mass of the planetesimal in my forge. . . for curiosity's sake. Then sandcast into a psyche mold.
 

demultiplexer

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Before you can have a very large built-out infrastructure, you need to have already solved the problem of gathering the resources you built it out of. That means the first settlements, if they are ever built, will be built in places that have most of the resources you need within a short distance. Don't think of a train that transports ore from the mine to the smelter to to the colony. Think of the colony being built *in the mine*.

So, that's part of the difference in how you approach these problems. I'm in the camp that first wants to build out quite a lot of infrastructure and only THEN start exploitation. We start by plonking down a mass driver and gigawatt-scale solar power plant, like, that's the first thing being built and all those resources come from earth. Sure, that will take ten years to do with hundreds to thousands of Starship launches, but then you're about 100 years ahead of the bootstrap scenario.
 

Dan Homerick

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So, that's part of the difference in how you approach these problems. I'm in the camp that first wants to build out quite a lot of infrastructure and only THEN start exploitation. We start by plonking down a mass driver and gigawatt-scale solar power plant, like, that's the first thing being built and all those resources come from earth. Sure, that will take ten years to do with hundreds to thousands of Starship launches, but then you're about 100 years ahead of the bootstrap scenario.
What you're proposing is a waterfall approach. Massive up-front investment in resources, get everything ready, and then throw the big switch to turn it all on. It'll never work, for the same reasons that waterfall always fails beyond a certain scale.

Waterfall doesn't take advantage of decentralization. You miss out of having multiple experiments running in parallel. Too many big decisions get routed through too few hands.

Waterfall defers getting any benefits until the end of the project. If you instead aim for a minimum viable product, you start accumulating benefits early in the project. This means decision making can be based on empirical evidence rather than only on projections and estimates. This difference can strongly affect funding decisions.

A massive up-front resource investment often tempts us with it's theoretical efficiency. In practice, it rarely fares well.

To use a SpaceX analogy, they didn't start with Starship, they started much smaller (MVP) and iterated. The benefit of Starship doesn't begin when they first reach Mars, it begins when they first reach LEO.

You've got to pull both the learning and the benefits forward. Everything is path-dependent. You can't just pick a spot that's beyond the horizon and set off, you need to prove things out along the way.
 

demultiplexer

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I strongly disagree on that; if we look at modern colonization efforts (everything from Manifest Destiny to forever wars), it's always been the infrastructure-heavy approach that yielded the best results. The USA built the equivalent of 2 GDPs worth of railways over the course of a decade and a half, which established about ten times as much land use in that period than the entire previous century. Likewise, we've had landings in the Americas for about two millennia with regular landings almost 700 years prior to the establishment of the colonies, yet mercantile infrastructure established colonies that still exist to this day within decades from the inception.

I'm not advocating for first setting up literally every street, power line, water mains, etc. as it is right now in the USA and then importing settlers. I'm advocating for setting up infrastructure at the edge of our abilities first instead of going for an ultra-safe slow approach.
 

Shavano

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Every instance of colonization started with humans living on the ground before infrastructure was built, then deciding that adding infrastructure would make living easier/better at the places they had already occupied. Since you brought up railroads, they were built between places that humans already lived in and already had economic reasons to go to. That justified the expenditure needed to build them. Afterward, they turned out to be much more valuable than predicted, and cities grew up along railroad routes because places that were previously marginal became economically viable. But that's not the first time that happened. It had been going on since the Roman Empire and presumably before.

Humans go into areas that seem likely for exploitation because they're already economically feasible to get to, begin exploiting them, then move to them (sometimes the other way around), and THEN build infrastructure that makes that exploitation cheaper and faster. If there's infrastructure on Mars or any moon waiting for humans when it gets there, it will because they are taking advantage of a situation that was enabled by resource extraction. It won't be because they planned decades in advance to create infrastructure convenient for humans to live.
 

Ananke

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Related to Shavano's point, every instance of colonisation in human history - at least every successful one - involved humans going to a place that humans could live.

That is quantitatively, fundamentally, different than attempting to colonise a place that humans cannot live. Europeans landing in the Americas, or Polynesians landing in Australasia, are terrible metaphors for humans landing on Mars, and signal (to me) that the person making the metaphor is either accidentally or deliberately disguising what is actually involved.

Colonising Mars is more akin to colonising, say, central Antarctica. Or those domed underwater cities that scifi promised us.

While I don't know exactly what Demultiplexer exactly has in mind by "massive infrastructure" (are we talking about enough for a colony of 100 people, or a million people?), but assuming we're talking about humans living on the surface for a prolonged period of time, rather than just waving a flag, the minimum set of infrastructure is likely to be ISS-sized (about 500 tonnes).

If we're talking about actual colonisation, i.e. a self-sustaining population, then the requirements are going to balloon substantially - the ISS is run by a set of individuals who have been selected as exceptional in one way or another, and supported by hundreds (or thousands) of staff on the surface. A colony needs to be able to work with whoever is there, including people who are sick, disabled, disinterested/bored, senile, children etc - all of which implies significantly more supporting infrastructure than that necessary for the ISS (and also, incidentally, probably requires a significantly more regimented and less-free society - libertarian paradise it pretty much can't be).
 

Dan Homerick

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Whether it's on Mars or in O'neill cylinders, the first space colonists are going to be a fairly unique population. They will all be people who are selected for being highly cooperative, productive, intelligent, and risk-tolerant.

Whether you think those traits are primarily genetic or learned, any children of the colony will be getting those traits reinforced through not only parenting but by the entirety of the society around them.

It's easy to predict that a whole society of highly driven people will be dystopian. After all, that's what most SF shows us: "Here's a setting where everyone is the same, let's follow the story of the one person who's different and watch them fight the system." It may (may) turn out to be an incredibly good thing, however.

Natural selection has optimized for individual success. The selection of colonists will use very different criteria than nature uses. It's not often that a breeding population gets deliberate, non-natural selection applied to it, and that selection could potentially drive traits that will enhance group success over individual success.

If "human behavior" is significantly different for Spacers than for Earthers, that will affect their society in all sorts of ways. All the more so if their societal rules are designed around the success of the colony. Predisposition for cooperativeness, combined with the knowledge that someone who is desperate can a 1000x-fold higher risk to the colony than they would be on Earth, will make for a very different sort of folk.
 

Shavano

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Culture and society can evolve an awful lot faster than genetics can, though.

Children are both without culture. They're born ignorant, impulsive, and short sighted. Space won't change that. So they need to be raised in environments where failure to read signs, follow procedures, anticipate consequences, and control their impulses isn't usually fatal and never results in mass death.

So space habitats can't be anything like anything we have built so far.
 

Dan Homerick

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They'll need to put those little plastic things in the electrical outlets, for sure.

Kidding aside, I don't think it'll won't be a serious issue. Yes, you'll need access restrictions to things like airlocks, but any colony will surely end up being cramped with very little space that isn't in constant use. Kids will be under constant supervision -- not so much to keep them safe, but because there won't be anywhere for them to go to get away from adults. They won't ever have the opportunity to get up to the sort of stupid hijinks that some of us did when our parents weren't around.

The biggest risk might be from crashing into equipment when playing catch with your little brother*.

* Throwing your brother, not a ball.
 

Dan Homerick

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My comment about a colony being cramped got me thinking. I was presuming that all habitable space would be constructed, which means expensive and scarce. But maybe that won't be the case.

One proposal for a martian colony is to build it in a lava tube. You could do it by closing off both ends, then roughly sealing any other outlets with an expanding spray foam. To get a tighter seal, follow that up by pressurizing the tube with Martian atmosphere and filling it with a mist of aerosolized sealant. The chamber will leak, and wherever it does, the sealant gets deposited. Obviously, you don't want anyone in there during this step.

Meanwhile, you need Nitrogen. The plan is to make methane fuel from the CO2 in the atmosphere, so you'll already be running air condensers and separators. Martian atmosphere is 2% Nitrogen, which isn't a lot, but it's not like you'll be using it up once you've collected it.

Pump down the chamber and refill with N2. Scrub out any CO or CO2 contamination and add oxygen until you have something breathable.

Now that it's sealed off and holding pressure well, install geothermal heat pumps and bring the temperature up.

At this point, you have an arbitrarily large habitable space, limited primarily by how much energy and equipment you have for heating. Seal off a section of it as a primary living space and warm it to a pleasant temperature. Partition other sections for crops, equipment storage, raw materials, etc. Any additional space can be left at a cold, but survivable temperature of, say, -5° C or so.

Once you've installed lighting, navigation beacons, and turret guns then you're all set to let the kids go play.
 

Shavano

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Damn, I *always* forget the turret guns. Seriously, guns are likely to be *heavily* restricted in space and banned for personal use. I can imagine carelessly punching holes in the walls to be a capital crime, in the event that you and the community you did it in survive the event. Also lighting fires, emitting other poisonous gases, damaging the air recyclers, etc.
 

Frennzy

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and holding pressure well,

It wouldn't even need to be all that much pressure. Say, .75 Bar, or 22" Hg. Approx. That's not much different from just a bit of 8k fASL on earth, and plenty of people live and acclimate those altitudes just fine. You could knock it down a bit more to 10k feet, but you do start to risk altitude sickness until you are acclimated.
 

Shavano

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I don't know if there would be any adverse effects if the O2 partial pressure were at 0.21 ATM. After all, oxygen is both more vital and easier to come by on almost every body humans are likely to want to build space habitats on than N2. So if you're going to skimp, skimp on the N2 and leave the O2 ideal for humans.

edit: but when you're trying to grow plants, I don't know if that's still the case. Surely there's some N2 partial pressure that's bad for plants and no reason I can think of why it should be the same as what's good for animals.
 

MilleniX

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I don't know if there would be any adverse effects if the O2 partial pressure were at 0.21 ATM. After all, oxygen is both more vital and easier to come by on almost every body humans are likely to want to build space habitats on than N2. So if you're going to skimp, skimp on the N2 and leave the O2 ideal for humans.

edit: but when you're trying to grow plants, I don't know if that's still the case. Surely there's some N2 partial pressure that's bad for plants and no reason I can think of why it should be the same as what's good for animals.
From what little interaction I've had with folks studying plant growth, they care a lot about soil nitrogen content, fixed to inorganic form by bacteria for non-legumes that can't do it themselves. I don't think there's anything in plant respiration that cares about nitrogen in the air.
 

Shavano

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Not directly. Nitrogen-fixing plants have symbiotic nitrogen fixing bacteria that *do* pull nitrogen from the air. That suggests that there must be some minimum concentration of N2 at which the process works and you can grow such plants with good yields. Cultivation of nitrogen fixing bacteria would be necessary for any kind of extraterrestrial agriculture, I assume.
 

tb12939

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I don't know if there would be any adverse effects if the O2 partial pressure were at 0.21 ATM.
If you want to risk Apollo 1 style outcomes, sure, you can do that.

Surely there's some N2 partial pressure that's bad for plants and no reason I can think of why it should be the same as what's good for animals.
Plants mostly like CO2, and generally would be happier with much less O2 (not zero though, they still have some respiration in the roots and even the leaves when its dark). Plants hosting nitrogen fixers (pulses etc) would of course like nitrogen as well
 

Shavano

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Yeah about .21ATM is how much partial pressure of O2 we have on Earth. It doesn't make things spontaneously ignite that wouldn't do the same on Earth. I assume that's ideal or near ideal for humans, and environments made for humans need to be made near ideal for humans, esp. if they're *colonies*, by definition places where humans are expected to live for many years. But the same might not be applied throughout. If the colony is to produce its own food, which it must before I'd call it a colony, it needs to also have a habitat that is as good as they can make it for growing crops without making it hostile to humans. Options are available there that aren't on Earth. If a different gas mix works better for growing food, that's what you use, and just make that part of the colony survivable for humans, not necessarily optimal.

Also that environment where you're growing plants is likely going to be taking advantage of sunlight (whether or not concentrated with mirrors), which means it would be on the surface and exposed to ionizing radiation that would be really bad for humans long term, but OK to grow plant strains that are radiation-hardy and don't need to survive for 70+ years. Alternatively you could have solar power on the surface and grow plants under LED light but I assume that the losses due to converting the energy twice are huge and not really good at all for growing plants compared to just putting them in sunlight.