How Chinese netizens swamped China’s Internet controls

Citizens protesting zero-COVID policies proved smartphones can help fuel mass action.

See full article...

 

[wujj123456]

Every national boundary in the world came about by 'war' and 'foreign interference'. This one is just slightly more recent than most in Europe for example.

The point is that Taiwan does not want to be ruled by an authoritarian single party state and there enough people willing to die to prevent it that all that would be achieved would be to capture some land of no specific value. It would obviously take a long time to move the needle in China and is impossible in the current climate though.

Be careful about this reasoning. All invaders obviously have made it clear they are willing to die to occupy the land. Western history of aggression doesn't really justify normalizing it unless you want war all the time. Well, guess US and allies have been doing that until Russia took over recently. On the other hand, let's not go down that path because I am not even debating whether Taiwan should be independent or not at first place. You can have your opinion for sure and I've been in US long enough to understand how most of folks here think about it.

I am strictly focused on why no one in China mainland would not support Taiwan independence. Again we may not support war, but doesn't mean we support its independence. Getting that wrong as in the article would derail a lot of its credibility for people came from China. Back in 2000s, BBC was considered decent despite being hostile to CCP. These days they are considered a joke as British Bullshitting Company back home. This is not just because of CCP propaganda as you might think. You probably won't trust people who get basic things wrong very often. Western media has been doing this kind of foot gun for the past decade or so which makes people back home increasingly skeptical of even spot-on reporting at this point. If western world ever want Chinese people to start to appreciate these reporting or even transform the country, credibility as viewed by Chinese citizen is a big problem. That's why I commented to give you some context from viewpoint of people back home. You don't need to agree with the opinion, but it won't change people's feelings.

Now going back to the specific topic. When our country was occupied by invaders for better half of a century and had our own people treated as second-class citizens until huge sacrifice were made to get back that independence, the feeling of a group of people carving out your land with the help of foreign military support for any reason strikes much harder.

Western media loves to focus on the political structure, but that has never been the focus back home. The focus has always been the actual land getting occupied that was part of the country before. It will not make the situation any less sensitive if it's another communist party ruling Taiwan and wants to be independent. Back in 60-70s when China refused to allow USSR troops station in our land, we are ready to go to war against USSR. That's why the status quo was maintained for so long by just paying lip service. That's also why the "one country, two systems" is well received by people even though you can say it's a CCP lie. Most people don't actually care about what political system Taiwan retains after unification. The unification is simply a symbol of willingness to protect the country. Even CCP doesn't have that political power to mess this up, and thus escalation by any side is unfortunately very dangerous.

 

[Static and Noise]

maybe, or they will look at what's happening in Ukraine, and decide "hmm maybe this territorial war thing isn't a good idea"

Oh yeah. It's completely obvious both the Mainland and Taiwan looked at what was happening. The swiftness and unprecedented severity of the West's response (It was. Really) combined with the fact the Russian invasion stalled and was so unsuccesful definitely made the CCP realise that a sea invasion of Taiwan would be a LOT harder than Russia's land invasion of Ukraine, combined with Taiwan's military considerably stronger than Ukraine's... CCP probably took an invasion off the table for the foreseeable future.

For some reason I can't fathom, Taiwan has given a lot of aid to Ukraine.

 

[mhalpern]

Oh yeah. It's completely obvious both the Mainland and Taiwan looked at what was happening. The swiftness and unprecedented severity of the West's response (It was. Really) combined with the fact the Russian invasion stalled and was so unsuccesful definitely made the CCP realise that a sea invasion of Taiwan would be a LOT harder than Russia's land invasion of Ukraine, combined with Taiwan's military considerably stronger than Ukraine's... CCP probably took an invasion off the table for the foreseeable future.

For some reason I can't fathom, Taiwan has given a lot of aid to Ukraine.

the reason is because they expect reciprocal, and because it lets them clear old inventory for better stuff, in a politically beneficial way

 

[graylshaped]

Western media loves to focus on the political structure, but that has never been the focus back home. The focus has always been the actual land getting occupied that was part of the country before.

China annexed what is now Taiwan in 1684, and then all but ignored it for two hundred years, when they traded it to Japan for Liaodong, which they considered more important.

To suggest they "deserve" Taiwan is an even larger breach of international law and precedence than their egregious failure to abide by the obligations they accepted with Hong Kong.

 

[traumadog]

One thing that perplexes me relates to China, but isn't strictly about China. The recent mid-terms in Taiwan saw a huge victory for the Kuomintang party (they won 13 out of 20 elections). The KMT favors better relations with China. Even though they claim they don't support the One China Policy. I find that difficult to believe. Things are getting weirder by the day. If China can appropriate Taiwan, and thus TSMC, China will have control over one of the worlds biggest chip suppliers. Getting so many local politicians into power that favor China is quite a win for China at a time where Covid restriction have the mainland people up in arms like we havent seen since Tienenman Square.

A lot of politics are local. The DPP was in power for most of the pandemic, so the locals might be looking to turn the page from the restrictions that were in Taiwannas well.

And though the KMT might favor unification at some point, they aren't looking to completely abdicate - especially since they have clearly seen the way Hong Kong has been treated.

 

[traumadog]

Be careful about this reasoning. All invaders obviously have made it clear they are willing to die to occupy the land. Western history of aggression doesn't really justify normalizing it unless you want war all the time. Well, guess US and allies have been doing that until Russia took over recently. On the other hand, let's not go down that path because I am not even debating whether Taiwan should be independent or not at first place. You can have your opinion for sure and I've been in US long enough to understand how most of folks here think about it.

I am strictly focused on why no one in China mainland would not support Taiwan independence. Again we may not support war, but doesn't mean we support its independence. Getting that wrong as in the article would derail a lot of its credibility for people came from China. Back in 2000s, BBC was considered decent despite being hostile to CCP. These days they are considered a joke as British Bullshitting Company back home. This is not just because of CCP propaganda as you might think. You probably won't trust people who get basic things wrong very often. Western media has been doing this kind of foot gun for the past decade or so which makes people back home increasingly skeptical of even spot-on reporting at this point. If western world ever want Chinese people to start to appreciate these reporting or even transform the country, credibility as viewed by Chinese citizen is a big problem. That's why I commented to give you some context from viewpoint of people back home. You don't need to agree with the opinion, but it won't change people's feelings.

Now going back to the specific topic. When our country was occupied by invaders for better half of a century and had our own people treated as second-class citizens until huge sacrifice were made to get back that independence, the feeling of a group of people carving out your land with the help of foreign military support for any reason strikes much harder.

Western media loves to focus on the political structure, but that has never been the focus back home. The focus has always been the actual land getting occupied that was part of the country before. It will not make the situation any less sensitive if it's another communist party ruling Taiwan and wants to be independent. Back in 60-70s when China refused to allow USSR troops station in our land, we are ready to go to war against USSR. That's why the status quo was maintained for so long by just paying lip service. That's also why the "one country, two systems" is well received by people even though you can say it's a CCP lie. Most people don't actually care about what political system Taiwan retains after unification. The unification is simply a symbol of willingness to protect the country. Even CCP doesn't have that political power to mess this up, and thus escalation by any side is unfortunately very dangerous.

What worries me is the cynical idea that Xi might use an actual shooting war over Taiwan to distract the home front from brewing dissention at home - one that is clearly proximately related to Xi's "zero-COVID" policies.

And the similie that underlines this is the idea that Putin was forced to ignite a shooting war because dissention in Crimea was brewing, simply because the peninsula required heavy economic support from the mainland and not enough was making it across the Kerch Bridge to matter. Russia needed the land bridge from through Donetsk, Mariupol and Zaporhizhzhia (and the freshwater canal that leads south from the Siverskiy Donets River) to be able to supply Crimea properly.

So if "zero-COVID" protests start disrupting China's economic outputs to the point companies start setting up factories outside China (like Apple is starting to do), I wouldn't be sure Xi might resort to something drastic in the short-term to maintain long-term control.

Perhaps not a full-blown invasion with the accompanying blowback, but perhaps some "incident", coupled with a blockade. Thing is, those acts are hard to keep from spiraling out of control.

Edit: fix link

 

[raxx7]

Kuonmintang ruled Taiwan until 20 years ago, and is still a major power in Taiwan. Both the Kuonmintang and the CCP held that there was only one China, and they were the rightful government of it. (And there was this weird deal in 1992, where they agreed "There is only one China, but different interpretations of what that means"). Weird as it sounds, the CCP prefers when the Kuonmintang wins elections in Taiwan, almost soleley because they agree on this.

But in short, the official policy of Taiwan was the same as the PRC's until not all that long ago regarding "One China". It's not like the two separated 70 years ago, and then forget about it, oh no. The Kuonmintang and the CCP kept it alive intentionally. One day, there'd be reunification.

Officially my democratic country doesn't recognize a chunk territory as being part of our (also democratic) neighbouring country. In practice we haven't took any real action in 200 years and everyone accepts it as a settled fact.

You need to look past official positions and historical claims and other such bullshit. Because ultimately this will come down to the will of ~24 million people living in Taiwan.

Taiwan and China effectively separated 70 years ago when KMT lost control of mainland China to CCP and took refuge in Taiwan.
From that day onward Taiwan and China have been effectively governed as two different countries (and during 30-40 years they had very little interaction).

Most people who were alive that day in 1949 are now dead and most people living in Taiwan have no experience with living in a unified China.
Whatever longing for a reunification exists it comes from the collective memory.
However that longing is weak and getting weaker by the day: current polls says that half want no form of reunification with China, mainly from the younger generations.

KMT and Taiwan official position is a mix of pretense not to antagonize China, collective historical longing and some non healthy desire to rule over the Chinese people (keep in mind that the KMT wasn't exactly democratic in until ~1980s).

 

[traumadog]

the reason is because they expect reciprocal, and because it lets them clear old inventory for better stuff, in a politically beneficial way

The interesting question is for what. F-35's are one thing, but exchanging Taiwan's ageing M-60's for M1A2's might not be as effective. Taiwan is a mountainous island where a heavy tank like the M1 is less helpful.

That said, Poland has invested in buying South Korean K2 tanks, and I'm betting Taiwan has a huge interest to see how those tanks perform, given the similar mountainous geography Korea and Taiwan share.

 

[Static and Noise]

China annexed what is now Taiwan in 1684, and then all but ignored it for two hundred years, when they traded it to Japan for Liaodong, which they considered more important.

Oh come on, that's some bad historical revisionism. There was this Sino-Japanese War, which Japan instigated and won. They got both Liaodong and Taiwan, among other things. But then several western powers got nervous about Japan's rising power (the Triple Intervention) and intervened on China's behalf and forced Japan to not take Liaodong (and then Russia essentially marched in, getting a 25 year lease).

If you want to argue that Taiwan doesn't belong to China, there are many arguments you can use. Downright lying about the history is NOT a good way to go about it.

 

[graylshaped]

Oh come on, that's some bad historical revisionism. There was this Sino-Japanese War, which Japan instigated and won. They got both Liaodong and Taiwan, among other things. But then several western powers got nervous about Japan's rising power (the Triple Intervention) and intervened on China's behalf and forced Japan to not take Liaodong (and then Russia essentially marched in, getting a 25 year lease).

If you want to argue that Taiwan doesn't belong to China, there are many arguments you can use. Downright lying about the history is NOT a good way to go about it.

And Japan held Liaodong for, what, a few months, before ceding it back? If you're going to suggest revisionism, at least finish your paper before handing it in. And yes, it did take pressure from the West, which ironically, is what is protecting Taiwan.

 

[Static and Noise]

And Japan held Liaodong for, what, a few months, before ceding it back? If you're going to suggest revisionism, at least finish your paper before handing it in. And yes, it did take pressure from the West, which ironically, is what is protecting Taiwan.

Yes? They gave up Liaodong not as a trade for Taiwan, but because France, Germany and Russia said "You can't have it". And then Russia, essentially, forced concessions on Liaodong from China, which pissed Japan off.

I'm not sure you actually read what I wrote. Your revisionism was saying China traded Taiwan to Japan for Liaodong. That's simply not what happened. Japan got both, the triple intervention forced Japan to give up Liaodong. It was not a "trade".

 

[PandaCheese]

It's fascinating that the comment section of many articles slightly related to China has a tendency to derail into some magnum opus that tries to encompass the whole of Chinese geopolitical history since the premodern era and touches upon every imaginable subject from civility to the colonial aftermath of the Great Game.

 

[brionl]

It's fascinating that the comment section of many articles slightly related to China has a tendency to derail into some magnum opus that tries to encompass the whole of Chinese geopolitical history since the premodern era and touches upon every imaginable subject from civility to the colonial aftermath of the Great Game.

Anything to distract from the latest atrocity perpetrated by the government.

 

[wujj123456]

China annexed what is now Taiwan in 1684, and then all but ignored it for two hundred years, when they traded it to Japan for Liaodong, which they considered more important.

Very interesting that you knew this but somehow that's the conclusion you drew. Guess let me fit you in with more details before you piss off even Taiwan. :-D

That 1895 agreement signed under Qing dynasty marked the start of half a century of being invaded and occupied until end of WWII. You probably should also know that the government that fled to Taiwan was the government that overthrew Qing dynasty in 1911.

Ceding territory to Japan is one of the few things both China mainland and Taiwan feel very strongly against. The aftermath of that 1895 agreement remained today. See Senkaku Islands, a territory was lost to Japan also with US meddling after WWII. You might be surprised to find that China and Taiwan have unified stance on this that it belongs to Taiwan. In fact, each time Japan messes with Senkaku Islands, the Taiwan Strait tension loosens briefly as both governments turn their focus to Japan.

If you plan to base your argument for Taiwan independence on any part of the 1895 agreement, I am afraid you just stomped onto a landmine and pissed off both sides. Now that you know even Taiwan is not willing to concede the claim for Senkaku Islands after all the years, perhaps you can get why this topic is so sensitive for Chinese people. We care a lot about getting all the lands back into one.

 

[sjl]

ahh an infinite loop, how long do you think it will be before they crash

Well, they could suffer a stack overflow, but that depends on whether they did tail call elimination during the compilation phase or not.

 

[rabby]

You need to live in China to understand how hard it is for a general people to crack all these restrictions. Less than 0.1% have the knowledge and tools to do that.

 

[wujj123456]

It's fascinating that the comment section of many articles slightly related to China has a tendency to derail into some magnum opus that tries to encompass the whole of Chinese geopolitical history since the premodern era and touches upon every imaginable subject from civility to the colonial aftermath of the Great Game.

The answer is fairly simple actually. There is a fundamental difference of how we understand "country" between the western world and China, or rather many eastern countries. China has existed long enough with continuous culture that political system is not considered the defining characteristic of our country. This might be hard to comprehend, but some of your academics got it mostly right in case you are interested. It's TED, so definitely be critically thinking when watching it. However, the culture difference is not something anyone can escape when discussing such topics.

 

[Kanchou]

China and Taiwan split ~70 years ago.
Virtually everyone who was a decision making adult back then is dead.

Putting aside the events that led to the split the timescale alone means that supporting Taiwan's independence is definitely NOT equivalent to immediately surrendering territory to an invading enemy.
Anyone making such claim is either a liar or a useful fool.

It also means you have generations of Taiwanese who've never known anything else but a de-facto independent Taiwan and have no wish to reunify with China.
(And those Taiwanese who still linger to a reunification with China do not want it while China is governed by the CCP).

The only way foreseable Taiwan is going to reunify with China is through force.
Not recognizing Taiwan's independence is a fool's errand that pushes China towards war.

China betrayed Taiwanese in 1895 in the Treaty of Shimonoseki. It's far longer than 70 years.

 

[tman247]

The problem with "Zero COVID" is that it is completely irrational. The fact is, COVID can never, ever again, be "isolated out of existence".

That ship sailed the moment the virus left China, which was long before the first cases were reported (based on the timing, infection rates, incubation periods, and water sewer samples taken globally). Locking people up in forced isolation doesn't stop an airborne virus. It just ensures that everyone who can get it in that isolated group will get it and eventually they'll all test negative again.

China has a long, LONG history of repressing its own people, and the whole concept behind Zero COVID strongly suggests that the government is testing the limits of their control to spot the weak zones and work how to reinforce them. It's patently obvious even to the most absolutist of the dictators that Zero COVID doesn't work as a means of controlling COVID outbreaks.

The other aspect of this is that China, unlike most of the rest of the world, is still in "pandemic phase" for no good reason. COVID is endemic. Yes, it kills a lot of people. Yes it's not a good thing to get. Yes there are vaccines for it. But we live with it like we do with the flu, measles, polio, mumps, etc. because those diseases are endemic. COVID is becoming endemic. China, with its absolutist mindset, is not making the social transition from pandemic to endemic at all.

If the rest of the world were sharing the isolation endured by the folks in China, then the folks in China would likely be much more compliant with the Zero COVID policy. It's just the rest of the world had decided they've had enough of trying to contain a disease that won't be contained (both because of its nature, and because too many humans are too stupid to help reduce the cases by refusing to get vaccinated), and the folks in China know this. Throw in the unnecessary hardships, pain and even death this policy has caused, and you get riots like these unique to China's social media rules.

In this case, the more the Chinese officials crack down, the longer and louder the protests will be. This isn't a protest that can be put down with tanks and guns. I suspect the Chines government has no fucking clue how to handle it unless they shut down the Internet in China completely. And even if they tried to do that, there's a good chance they can't silence everyone enough for those voices to be unheard by the rest of the world.

I don't know how this will end, except badly, I suspect. Most likely for the people of China, as usual. But given the unique and dispersed nature of this protest, the Chinese government may be forced for the first time to blink.

I agree. The CCP have never really cared about their own citizens, so why start now? The reality is, zero-Covid was about re-enforcing control in their population, especially the younger generation more heavily influenced by the west. Stamp down any discent and 're-educate' the people, but there's only so much people will take - even the Chinese. Hopefully too, the west have now realised that their manufacturing dependency on China is damaging and extremely high risk (I hope they've learnt anyway, but probably not).

 

[Router66]

I am strictly focused on why no one in China mainland would not support Taiwan independence. Again we may not support war, but doesn't mean we support its independence.

The focus has always been the actual land getting occupied that was part of the country before.

Except, this is state propaganda. If you really want to talk about the history of Taiwan, you should also speak about the Taiwanese aboriginals, who are not of chinese origins and who have been systematically massacred and marginalized by both the Chinese and the Japanese. When the westerners arrived in the 16th and 17th century, the Chinese were a minority among a generaly indigenous population. So, Taiwan was nominally under the rule of the Chinese dynasties (as was Tibet, Xinjang and even Korea at times) but it was no more than a remote outpost - not an integral part of the Chinese world.

So, let's stick to the present. The situation, as it is now, is that the Taiwanese population doesn't want to be a part of China. This is especially true for the younger ones who saw what happened with Hong Kong - and you know it. The insistance in "reunification" in the 21st century is no more than a recurring national myth, fueled by CCP (and KMT) to distract from internal problems. Taiwan is not "occupied" and Tibet was not "liberated", no matter what Chinese school books say.

 

[eye776]

Be careful about this reasoning. All invaders obviously have made it clear they are willing to die to occupy the land. Western history of aggression doesn't really justify normalizing it unless you want war all the time. Well, guess US and allies have been doing that until Russia took over recently. On the other hand, let's not go down that path because I am not even debating whether Taiwan should be independent or not at first place. You can have your opinion for sure and I've been in US long enough to understand how most of folks here think about it.

I am strictly focused on why no one in China mainland would not support Taiwan independence. Again we may not support war, but doesn't mean we support its independence. Getting that wrong as in the article would derail a lot of its credibility for people came from China. Back in 2000s, BBC was considered decent despite being hostile to CCP. These days they are considered a joke as British Bullshitting Company back home. This is not just because of CCP propaganda as you might think. You probably won't trust people who get basic things wrong very often. Western media has been doing this kind of foot gun for the past decade or so which makes people back home increasingly skeptical of even spot-on reporting at this point. If western world ever want Chinese people to start to appreciate these reporting or even transform the country, credibility as viewed by Chinese citizen is a big problem. That's why I commented to give you some context from viewpoint of people back home. You don't need to agree with the opinion, but it won't change people's feelings.

Now going back to the specific topic. When our country was occupied by invaders for better half of a century and had our own people treated as second-class citizens until huge sacrifice were made to get back that independence, the feeling of a group of people carving out your land with the help of foreign military support for any reason strikes much harder.

Western media loves to focus on the political structure, but that has never been the focus back home. The focus has always been the actual land getting occupied that was part of the country before. It will not make the situation any less sensitive if it's another communist party ruling Taiwan and wants to be independent. Back in 60-70s when China refused to allow USSR troops station in our land, we are ready to go to war against USSR. That's why the status quo was maintained for so long by just paying lip service. That's also why the "one country, two systems" is well received by people even though you can say it's a CCP lie. Most people don't actually care about what political system Taiwan retains after unification. The unification is simply a symbol of willingness to protect the country. Even CCP doesn't have that political power to mess this up, and thus escalation by any side is unfortunately very dangerous.

All politicians suck, regardless of the color of their skin. I have to wonder what exactly has Xi provided for people as yourself that other politicians could not provide, for you to serve him so faithfully. He's just another obese degenerate who is drunk with power.

Western failings of capturing minutia of Chinese culture have nothing to do with it. It's not like Taiwan needs the Chinese mainland's protection against other threats. In fact mainland China is basically acting like a mafia protection racket, as in it promises to protect Taiwan from its own threats. Just like a State Security Ministry officer promising the beatings will stop if you submit. Or any other extremist promising peace if you just convert to and adopt their rules.

The beatings will continue until morale improves. Nothing is new under the sun.

 

[A Man A Plan A Canal Panama]

Relevant counter example

View attachment 48081

not really. Tank man was killed soon after the photo. we think.

 

[Kanchou]

Except, this is state propaganda. If you really want to talk about the history of Taiwan, you should also speak about the Taiwanese aboriginals, who are not of chinese origins and who have been systematically massacred and marginalized by both the Chinese and the Japanese. When the westerners arrived in the 16th and 17th century, the Chinese were a minority among a generaly indigenous population. So, Taiwan was nominally under the rule of the Chinese dynasties (as was Tibet, Xinjang and even Korea at times) but it was no more than a remote outpost - not an integral part of the Chinese world.

So, let's stick to the present. The situation, as it is now, is that the Taiwanese population doesn't want to be a part of China. This is especially true for the younger ones who saw what happened with Hong Kong - and you know it. The insistance in "reunification" in the 21st century is no more than a recurring national myth, fueled by CCP (and KMT) to distract from internal problems. Taiwan is not "occupied" and Tibet was not "liberated", no matter what Chinese school books say.

That reminds me, Chinese government claimed that they had no control over vast areas of Taiwan in 1867 to avoid compensation to United States. So US Marine went in and fought the Paiwan tribe to a draw.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formosa_Expedition
Later, they used the same excuses, so Japanese sent in Saigo Takamori's younger brother in 1874.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mudan_incident
Let's just say China never had control over the full extent of Taiwan when China signed it away in 1895 to save their own skin. Japanese only achieved it with chemical weapons dropped from airplanes in Wusha Incident in the 1930s to finally "Closing of Taiwanese Frontier. "

When Dutch East Indie Company showed up in the 1620s, Chinese government told them to go to Taiwan as it's not part of China. After the Manchurians overran China, a small group of brave proto-Taiwanese took on VOC and won so they can fight Manchurians for another generation, when everyone else in China were afraid of Manchurians.

 

[Kamus]

这文章写的，实在太离谱了。
如果我再年轻10岁，我可能还愿意写一篇长文，来说说真实的情况。
但考虑到我已经是个疲惫的中年人，再没有年少时那种与人交流的热情。
所以还是算了吧。
只是单纯吐槽一些这种离谱的报道。。。。
（另外我的英语实在是水平有限，只能看懂别人大概在说什么，不能用英语表达我的意思，所以如果有好奇的美国朋友，你们或许可以用edge浏览器右上角的在线翻译功能。这是我第一次在这个论坛的帖子留言，也不知道用中文会不会违反版规，如果版规规定了只能用英文，希望版主大人念在我初来乍到不懂规矩，高抬贵手啊！）

ChatGTP to the rescue! Here is what it told me when I asked it to translate that for me:

This article is written in a way that is really out of touch. If I were 10 years younger, I might still be willing to write a long article to talk about the real situation. But considering that I am already an exhausted middle-aged person, I no longer have the enthusiasm for communication that I had in my youth. So forget it. I am just venting about this out-of-touch report... (In addition, my English is really limited. I can only understand what others are talking about, but I can't express my ideas in English. So if there are curious American friends, you may use the online translation function in the upper right corner of the edge browser. This is the first time I have left a message in this forum. I don't know if using Chinese will violate the rules. If the rules specify that only English can be used, I hope the moderator will be lenient with me because I am new here and don't understand the rules.)

 

[Deleted member 276317]

[SNIP]
We care a lot about getting all the lands back into one.

Why? Please be specific.

Who is "we?"

Why is what "we" want more important than what the citizens of Hong Kong want? Or what the people of Taiwan want?

 

[dani_sht]

Irrelevant. The victims of that fire, in that apartment, were Uighur. It's been reported on several news channels including pictures of the victims. The adult son and daughter of the family, who are currently in another country, are afraid to come back and attend the funeral because they fear being arrested, tortured and disappeared.

Get a life and watch the news besides Xinhua for once you 50 cent troll.

What is irrelevant is the ethnicity of the dead. This is another attempt by western media to stoke anti-China sentiment over the Uighur issue...
The relevant part here is that people died and the authorities (and their policies) failed them...

 

[dani_sht]

This whole thing goes to show that even the most authoritarian of regimes should keep their finger on the pulse of public opinion. When enough people get fed up and rise, the authorities should take heed or risk the entire system's collapse.

 

[dani_sht]

At the beginning of the pandemic I was a fan of China's zero Covid policy. They saved a lot of people two years ago. But as time went on and the virus lethality droped and its transmisability increased, the Zero Covid policy resulted in deminishing returns. At this point lockdowns make no sense...

 

[psglgdame]

This whole thing goes to show that even the most authoritarian of regimes should keep their finger on the pulse of public opinion. When enough people get fed up and rise, the authorities should take heed or risk the entire system's collapse.

it is too far away form "the entire system's collapse"
i can tell you that ,even now, a lot of people still support the zero covid policy.
we know the policy can't last forever,
everyone know that.
we just want to entre the pandemic as late as possible.
so the public opinion is complex,.

 

[bbf]

That's also why the "one country, two systems" is well received by people even though you can say it's a CCP lie. Most people don't actually care about what political system Taiwan retains after unification. The unification is simply a symbol of willingness to protect the country. Even CCP doesn't have that political power to mess this up, and thus escalation by any side is unfortunately very dangerous.

One country, two systems is a lie, why? Two words: Hong Kong
China promised not to make any changes for 50 years after it was returned or "was reunified" with China and have two systems. Less than 30 years into HK's reunification, China is changing the rules in HK. Locally elected government representatives, journalists and HK citizens are arrested and jailed when they criticize the Chinese government. Yeah, there's a "two system" democracy that can only do what the CCP allows them to.

The Taiwanese aren't stupid enough to believe that they'll be treated any differently than Hong Kong by the CCP. So as long as the CCP is in power, there won't be a voluntary reunification.

Actions speak louder than words. The actions of the CCP in Hong Kong override your words.

 

[odikweos]

Be careful about this reasoning. All invaders obviously have made it clear they are willing to die to occupy the land. Western history of aggression doesn't really justify normalizing it unless you want war all the time. Well, guess US and allies have been doing that until Russia took over recently. On the other hand, let's not go down that path because I am not even debating whether Taiwan should be independent or not at first place. You can have your opinion for sure and I've been in US long enough to understand how most of folks here think about it.

I am strictly focused on why no one in China mainland would not support Taiwan independence. Again we may not support war, but doesn't mean we support its independence. Getting that wrong as in the article would derail a lot of its credibility for people came from China. Back in 2000s, BBC was considered decent despite being hostile to CCP. These days they are considered a joke as British Bullshitting Company back home. This is not just because of CCP propaganda as you might think. You probably won't trust people who get basic things wrong very often. Western media has been doing this kind of foot gun for the past decade or so which makes people back home increasingly skeptical of even spot-on reporting at this point. If western world ever want Chinese people to start to appreciate these reporting or even transform the country, credibility as viewed by Chinese citizen is a big problem. That's why I commented to give you some context from viewpoint of people back home. You don't need to agree with the opinion, but it won't change people's feelings.

Now going back to the specific topic. When our country was occupied by invaders for better half of a century and had our own people treated as second-class citizens until huge sacrifice were made to get back that independence, the feeling of a group of people carving out your land with the help of foreign military support for any reason strikes much harder.

Western media loves to focus on the political structure, but that has never been the focus back home. The focus has always been the actual land getting occupied that was part of the country before. It will not make the situation any less sensitive if it's another communist party ruling Taiwan and wants to be independent. Back in 60-70s when China refused to allow USSR troops station in our land, we are ready to go to war against USSR. That's why the status quo was maintained for so long by just paying lip service. That's also why the "one country, two systems" is well received by people even though you can say it's a CCP lie. Most people don't actually care about what political system Taiwan retains after unification. The unification is simply a symbol of willingness to protect the country. Even CCP doesn't have that political power to mess this up, and thus escalation by any side is unfortunately very dangerous.

great post. I have no idea whether I agree with you - but nice color/different perspective than usual - worth reading.

 

[disarmyouwitha]

They should be careful because despite "Friedmann" sounding like "Freed Man" It's spelled like Fried Man.. which may not be what they are looking for.

 

[Woolfe]

Gorbachev didn't realize that there were certain incompatibilities between Soviet culture and the ideas he was trying to introduce to enable trade with the West, until it was too late, in China those incompatibilities are being reintroduced after the population has grown accustomed to at least a taste of those ideas, whether or not it will have the same impact on China's governing capability is hard to say at this point, China isn't a union (by choice or otherwise) of several distinct states as the USSR was, each with their own competing national identities so you don't have the same pressures that'd cause it to fracture, but still not great.

The Tibetans would like a word....

 

[graylshaped]

Very interesting that you knew this but somehow that's the conclusion you drew. Guess let me fit you in with more details before you piss off even Taiwan. :-D

That 1895 agreement signed under Qing dynasty marked the start of half a century of being invaded and occupied until end of WWII. You probably should also know that the government that fled to Taiwan was the government that overthrew Qing dynasty in 1911.

Ceding territory to Japan is one of the few things both China mainland and Taiwan feel very strongly against. The aftermath of that 1895 agreement remained today. See Senkaku Islands, a territory was lost to Japan also with US meddling after WWII. You might be surprised to find that China and Taiwan have unified stance on this that it belongs to Taiwan. In fact, each time Japan messes with Senkaku Islands, the Taiwan Strait tension loosens briefly as both governments turn their focus to Japan.

If you plan to base your argument for Taiwan independence on any part of the 1895 agreement, I am afraid you just stomped onto a landmine and pissed off both sides. Now that you know even Taiwan is not willing to concede the claim for Senkaku Islands after all the years, perhaps you can get why this topic is so sensitive for Chinese people. We care a lot about getting all the lands back into one.

I am sorry about your fee-fees about getting the band back together. Maybe compare notes with the UK. Find me someone there still pissed about losing "the colonies," which happened a century later, let alone abandoning their imperialist agenda, and then we can talk.

That doesn't excuse British imperialism, by the way. But jeebus, dude. It has been centuries. If China were the US, they would also be demanding back the Philippines.

Give it up. Live your life in your borders, and let others live theirs within theirs.

 

[adespoton]

I'm waiting to see pictures of the streets of Tehran with masked people holding white sheets of paper.

Seems to me this can work in more than one nation.

 

[raxx7]

I'm waiting to see pictures of the streets of Tehran with masked people holding white sheets of paper.

Seems to me this can work in more than one nation.

Iran is way past that point..

 

[Interdimensional gaseous being]

Tiananmen? History after that proved everything. The economy of China and the living quality of ordinary Chinese people has been improving greatly ever since that event.

For Uyghurs, I can only tell you that my family and I has visited Xinjiang more than once in the past decades. We are all welcome by local Uyghurs no matter where we were. Camps? Never heard of it.

Spoken like a true nazi. Bravo.

 

[Zontar]

China abandons key parts of zero-Covid strategy after protests​