Hands on: Nero's LiquidTV, TiVo for your PC

Nero announced LiquidTV today, a combination software and hardware product that brings TiVo and much of its glory to Windows PCs, complete with that great remote. Ars Technica spoke with Nero and went hands on to see how well TiVo software performs outside of its natural habitat.<BR><BR>Read More

 

[t_newt]

This being TiVo, isn't there a yearly subscription fee involved?<BR><BR>Also, TiVo was developed on Linux, but this looks to be Windows only.

 

[Kressilac]

Ho Hum. Nice of them to catch up with Windows Media Center. Hopefully, they have luck cracking the CableCARD nut. Until then Media Center PCs are right where Big Content wants them, nowhere.<BR><BR>Call me when I can drop a CableCARD in a DIY PC and watch all the HD channels I subscribe to without problems.

 

[SirOmega]

Cablecards will never be in PCs until the content industry can be assured that its completely secure. <BR><BR>So never.<BR><BR>In the mean time, I use my TiVoHD to transfer HD content to my PC, encode it back down to H.264 in 19x12 and iPhone formats and go from there.

 

[grimbeaver]

clear qam support?

 

[0megapart!cle]

This is going to fail so unbelievably bad. Tivo does know that PC users have had a plethora of intuitive, stable, well-featured apps for managing TV recording for many years. And not a one of them requires a recurring fee. <BR><BR>I love my smooth, nearly error-free, dual-tuner BeyondTV setup, and I don't think there is an announcement that could possibly be more underwhelming for me.<BR><BR>(If Tivo wasn't charging the recurring fee, I might be interested, but as is, I couldn't care less)

 

[Kemosabe']

I Like TIVO but the monthly extortion fee makes it a lose lose proposition.<BR><BR>Media Center or Vista Premium / Ultimate do it all without the extortion fee.<BR><BR>Until TIVO brings back lifetime subscriptions for a resonable price I am boycotting them. <BR><BR>I do have two Tivo's with lifetime... Direct TV HD Tivo (Which looks better than the new mpeg4 series3's) and one series2.

 

[BigLan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">LiquidTV is a very affordable contender in the home theater space. </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Maybe compared to a regular tivo, but Vista Home Premium and ultimate offer this for free, and no yearly fee, while SageTV & BeyondTV also seem comparable and cost less than $100 for a lifetime. All of them can handle QAM to some extent, too.<BR><BR>If you want integration with an ipod, I'd recommend BeyondTV which has a really nice 'showsqueeze' function and can dump it straight onto the ipod. They also seem to have a better DVD burning setup.<BR><BR><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">clear qam support? </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Signs point to 'no' - the article says OTA only.

 

[rpgspree]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by 0megapart!cle:<BR>I love my smooth, nearly error-free, dual-tuner BeyondTV setup, and I don't think there is an announcement that could possibly be more underwhelming for me.<BR><BR>(If Tivo wasn't charging the recurring fee, I might be interested, but as is, I couldn't care less) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Ditto! BTW, which turners are you using? My FusionHDTV5 gets decent reception, but driver stability leaves a bit to be desired.

 

[jts193]

OLD NEWS! <BR><BR>Snapstream has a great solution - in the market for years, and no silly monthly fee for the guide info. Nice try, TiVo!

 

[rpgspree]

Hey David, the link for the supported tuners is broken. Actually, the link on Nero's page is broken too! Luckily, Google found the page with little trouble. Nero LiquidTV Compatibility<BR><BR>BTW, their site states that it supports "standard definition as well as High Definition ATSC digital TV or analog cable TV".

 

[abapper]

Agreed. I've been using Beyond TV for years - very happy with it. Tivo, thanks playing, but you're years late to the game.

 

[Demani]

I here a lot of what is eing said, but I have to say the interface for Tivo is a definite cut above BeyondTV or SageTV. That being said, I'm not sure the monthly fee would be worth it (besides- what's the fee after the first year?).

 

[bicarb]

All of these things are unfortunately a bit of a waste without cablecard support unfortunately -- View image here: http://episteme.meincmagazine.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif --. Cable companies/cable-labs have done a good job of kneecapping HTPC's before they are even getting to the gate

 

[SirOmega]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"><BR>BTW, their site states that it supports "standard definition as well as High Definition ATSC digital TV or analog cable TV". </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Which means no clear QAM. Thats really disappointing.

 

[Initri]

Thanks, I'll stick to BeyondTV !! ClearQAM, ATSC, NTSC, BTV Link.. I'm hooked. -- View image here: http://episteme.meincmagazine.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif --<br><br>I love TiVo, but eh.. like I told my friend earlier, to little, too late. It's just not mature enough.<br><br>P.S. I have 3 HDtuners, 2 SD tuners, and I love it. I am holding out hope for someday being able to use CableCARD though.<br><br>- Matthew

 

[stickboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kemosabe':<BR>Until TIVO brings back lifetime subscriptions for a resonable price I am boycotting them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Uhm, they've been back for a while now.<BR><BR>I don't know how it relates to the PC software though.<BR><BR>I gladly paid for a lifetime subscription on my TiVo HD, but I have trouble believing the DIY HTPC people would want to shell out a few hundred more dollars.

 

[vegas67]

You have got to be kidding me. Just a heads up I have been using a ati all-in-wonder card in my pc since 1998,, and guess what, it plays t.v., records t.v. and any other video input you connect to it. Where has everyone been for the last 10 years..

 

[Tekzel]

Its a neat product and I am definitely tempted. I have 2 Series 2 DT Tivos that I got for $49.99 each refurbished and upgraded the hard drives to 200gb. I see lots of people talking about how great their various PC based solutions are, but not all of us can afford to get set up like that. Sure, I pay about $26 bucks a month in Tivo subscriptions, but at that rate it would take many years offset the cost to get 2 PCs all set up to be able to do what I do with my Tivos. So, while you may scoff at the reoccuring fees its a hell of a lot cheaper than the alternative. A good SD dual tuner card is 200 bucks alone and you STILL have to have the PC.

 

[JEDIDIAH]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tekzel:<BR>Its a neat product and I am definitely tempted. I have 2 Series 2 DT Tivos that I got for $49.99 each refurbished and upgraded the hard drives to 200gb. I see lots of people talking about how great their various PC based solutions are, but not all of us can afford to get set up like that. Sure, I pay about $26 bucks a month in Tivo subscriptions, but at that rate it would take many years offset the cost to get 2 PCs all set up to be able to do what I do with my Tivos. So, while you may scoff at the reoccuring fees its a hell of a lot cheaper than the alternative. A good SD dual tuner card is 200 bucks alone and you STILL have to have the PC. </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>A PC based PVR solution is as cheap or as expensive as you want it to be.<BR><BR>With MPEG2 content, you can cut a lot of corners. You don't have to go<BR>out and buy the most expensive cards you can find ( I could replace <BR>my own current analog card for $30bux ).<BR><BR>OTOH, with other formats and multiple big disk drives you can<BR>push a PC based PVR into places Tivo won't go yet (and may <BR>never get to).<BR><BR>For less than $200 you can get yourself a networked dual HD tuner.<BR><BR>For the same amount of money you can get yourself a 1TB disk.<BR><BR>For the same amount of money you can get yourself an extender<BR> system for another room.

 

[Tekzel]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JEDIDIAH:<BR>A PC based PVR solution is as cheap or as expensive as you want it to be. </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Give me a total example of as cheap as you want it to be. I am interested in what you find to be a functional cheap dual tuner setup.<BR><BR><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JEDIDIAH:<BR>With MPEG2 content, you can cut a lot of corners. You don't have to go<BR>out and buy the most expensive cards you can find ( I could replace <BR>my own current analog card for $30bux ). </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Yea, but that is a single tuner card doing encoding on the CPU, so you need a faster CPU to be able to do that while decoding recorded content so you can watch at the same time as recording. That offsets the price.<BR><BR><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JEDIDIAH:<BR>OTOH, with other formats and multiple big disk drives you can<BR>push a PC based PVR into places Tivo won't go yet (and may <BR>never get to). </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Are you talking about HD? I think I mentioned that cost is a factor for me, getting set up with HD isn't even in my near future. The Tivo set up does 100% of what I need, I record a lot of shows and I watch them. From time to time I will transfer a show from my bedroom DVR to the livingroom one, or vice versa. Theres not much else I need out of my PVR. I don't even bother to listen to music on mine. I have it set up so I can, but I just don't have a need for it.<BR><BR><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JEDIDIAH:<BR>For less than $200 you can get yourself a networked dual HD tuner.<BR><BR>For the same amount of money you can get yourself a 1TB disk.<BR><BR>For the same amount of money you can get yourself an extender<BR> system for another room. </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>What do you mean a "networked dual HD tuner". I have never seen a tuner device that is networkable by itself. Usually they require the rest of the PC to accomplish that little task. Besides, for cost conscious folks HD isn't usually an option. Just having an HD tuner isn't enough, you have to have an HD source and an HD display for it to make sense and the cost gets outrageous in that area. I feel my point stands: From a cost perspective it makes way more sense to pay Tivo a small monthly fee than do a home built solution. That doesn't mean a home build solution isn't way more cool, it is. It is way more flexible and you can do a lot more with it. But some of us just need to record television and watch it. And we don't have tons of discretionary income to build a geeks dream PVR setup. Your option IS more expensive, unless you factor it over the course of many years.

 

[fugdabug]

Dear Folks,<BR>I don't know where ya'll been for so long... but with a couple of simple pieces of software and a PC-TV card I have been doing most of what this product promises for a couple of years now... and not one fee, other than my monthly TV/BB/Phone bill... sorry it is 'passe' as far as I am concerned. Of course if all you use you computer for is entertainment and you are using VISTA... well press on...

 

[zelannii]

Here's what I'm waiting for:<BR><BR>- dual HD tuner<BR>- tru2way and CableCard support (I'm even OK if this requires an additional card slot for the adapter, and if the adapter costs extras)<BR>- Cable and Satelite provider support across ALL chanels plus the ability to record VOD content as it is played (manual record). I can do this with a DVD recorder hooked up to the TV, so enabling this is not allowing the recording of content I can't already record legally another way. <BR>- on-screen guide with data pulled directly from the provider's own digital guide data with no additional monthly fee (unless you need OTA broadcast guide info to pick up local stations in the absense of cable or sattelite)<BR>- Ability to export to DVD, and when available at a reasonable price blu-ray, including placing multiple episodes on one DVD<BR>- ability to manage multiple storage containers, including relegating series content to subfolders, storing movies and TV shows seperately, and move any show to any other folder or drive at will. <BR>- Ability to prioritize recordings, so when there's a conflict and more than 2 shows would be recording concurrently, it will auto select based on my choices. When there is a conflict, I should get a notification, including support for mobile e-mail or SMS responses, and the ability to for me to resolve s conflict remotely when away from the computer. <BR>- Ability to play recorded content on any computer, iPod, or other media device without proprietary software, and NO DRM (watermarking is OK by me though). Content on portable hard disks should not have to be "exported" to a compatible format to be played on another computer. Content should be playable on a Mac, PC, or Linux box (even if recording is limited to Windows machines)<BR>- ability not only to skip commercials, but to mark that content for deletion so I don't waste 30% of my storage keeping commercials on a hard disk. (if they want to limit commercial deletion until after the content has been watched, preventing auto detect and deletion software, I'm OK with that, as long as I can remove them without purchasing decoding and editing software seperately.)<BR>- Ability to have more than 1 tuner card installed (to enable recording 1, 2, 3, 4, or more programs concurrently, provided the write speeds of the drives are fast enough to support it (which it should check for, and there should be an online utility I can download to run such a check BEFORE I buy the product). <BR>- Ability for selected content to be automatically backed up to additional media, and for other content to be "archived" to external hard disks, including re-using the same hard drive for multiple archive runs over time until full, and allowing the software to remain aware of what drive archived conetnt is located on (so if I pull up a show that's been archived, it tells me what drive I need to attach to play it). This should work for internal and external drives alike as some eSATA drives appear to windows (and other OS) as internal non-removable storage. <BR>- Set top "extention" box (optional seperate purchase), tunerless, and connected via Wireless G and N plus 100mbit or faster wired connection, that can play any stored content (from multiple PCs) through an interface similar to that on the PC, plus enable me to schedule recordings on the PC from the living room, and even watch live streaming TV via the PC's tuner cards. Box needs to support 1080p and HDMI 1.3 or newer plus should have digital audio on fiber and coax. A non-HD version should also be available for less advanced households. I think such an extention box would warrent $179 for an HD version. <BR><BR><BR>If they could do this, I've be willing to pay $249 for the inital dual tuner HD + software setup, and $179 for each additional dual tuner HD card (or half that for SD) I'd even be willing to spend an additional $100 on a lifetime subscription for the reception of analog cable and OTA guide data if my current provider service is not sending digital guide data I can decode. (current satelites and all digital set top boxes from cable providers should be supported without this fee). I'd be willing to pay an additional $200 if this entire setup was a standalone set top box with it's own internal hard disk that could copy data to my PC across the network saving me the trouble of installing cards

 

[zathras2]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tekzel:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JEDIDIAH:<BR>A PC based PVR solution is as cheap or as expensive as you want it to be. </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Give me a total example of as cheap as you want it to be. I am interested in what you find to be a functional cheap dual tuner setup. </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>How's this?<BR><BR>Hauppauge WinTV-HVR-1600 ATSC/ClearQAM/NTSC TV Tuner PCI w/Remote 1178 PCI Interface - Retail<BR>http://www.newegg.com/Product/...Item=N82E16815116007<BR>$75 on sale (normally $90)<BR><BR>SAMSUNG Spinpoint F1 HD322HJ 320GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - OEM<BR>http://www.newegg.com/Product/...Item=N82E16822152096<BR>$55<BR><BR>Intel BOXD945GCLF Intel Atom processor 230 Intel 945GC Mini ITX Motherboard/CPU Combo - Retail<BR>http://www.newegg.com/Product/...Item=N82E16813121342<BR>(Currently Out of Stock)<BR>$65~<BR><BR>APEX MI-008 Black Steel Mini-ITX Tower Computer Case 250W Power Supply <BR>http://www.newegg.com/Product/...Item=N82E16811154091<BR>$56<BR><BR>Linux (MythUbuntu or whatever)<BR>Free<BR><BR>or<BR><BR>Microsoft Windows Vista Home Premium SP1 32-bit English 1pk for System Builders DSP OEI DVD - OEM<BR>http://www.newegg.com/Product/...Item=N82E16832116485<BR>$100<BR><BR><BR>So that's $240~ if you want to put the extra work into Linux or $340 if you want to use Windows Vista Home Premium's Media Center. And you get both an analog tuner and an ATSC/Clear QAM tuner as well.

 

[BigLan]

Personally, I'd go for<BR>780G mobo for $67 link<BR>AMD BE-2400 CPU $40 link<BR>Heatsink for ~$20<BR>Hauppauge 1250 for $52 link<BR>Cheap case/psu - Let's say $50<BR>Hard drive - 320gb for about $50<BR>Memory - 2 gigs should be ~$20<BR><BR>That's about $300, plus $100 for vista HP if needed which is still less than a tivo lifetime subscription. It's a hybrid tuner, so can record one analog channel and one digital. You can add another card for another $50, or just get the 2250 for ~$120.<BR><BR>If you want to watch TV in another room then get an extender for $100, or a 360 core for $200 (which can also play dvds and do netflix streaming.)<BR><BR>The cost starts to come down if you've got older hardware/software you can reuse. Any s939 system + an ati 3450 would work just fine for HDTV PVR duties, and XP Pro + sage or beyondTV would also be great.

 

[zathras2]

I knew I forgot something! I forgot RAM!<BR><BR>Well that's only another $20 anyway. Make it $35~ if you want 2GB for some reason (you don't need it even with Vista Home Premium).<BR><BR>While the Intel Atom board is currently out of stock I would definitely get it over any other board or board+cpu combo. No reason to get anything hotter or more expensive in this case, you don't need more CPU power, unless you want to play it back with the same box.<BR><BR>I think that's where your choices differ, you want to playback with the same computer whereas I would find it more useful to simply have as low a power box as possible on all the time recording and then simply play the files over the network on a regular computer or a Popcorn Hour NMT or such.

 

[Tekzel]

My dual tuner Tivos cost me $49.99 total for the hardware, the HDDs I got for free for doing some computer work for a guy. At around $350 bucks per unit it would take about 2.5 years to offset the cost of the Tivo monthly service. There are other things you guys haven't factored in, conveniences like the last time I used a Hauppage remote it sucked horribly, so going with Vista you would have to also buy a media center remote. I know its minor, but to me its a consideration. If I had the extra scratch I would like to have a setup like you describe, but the Tivo monthly subscription wins on the cost front from my perspective.

 

[megazone]

According to Nero's blogger presentation last Friday LiquidTV supports NTSC antenna, ATSC antenna, analog cable, and Clear QAM digital cable. CableCARD support is unclear, they said they think it should work if installed on a PC with CableCARDs, but that they hadn't tested it.<BR><BR>And sure, there are cheaper ways to roll-your-own PC-based DVR. You know what? This isn't for anyone who would even consider doing that. The majority of the market is not going to futz around with MythTV, and the cheap software that comes with Tuner cards is very limited and not as easy to use. This is aiming more for the kind of users who use Beyond TV or SageTV. I don't think the up-front pricing is at all out of line. I do think the recurring pricing may be an issue. I think they can get away with recurring pricing, I don't think it can be $100/year though. $50, probably. (Even MythTV's primary data service is $20/year.)

 

[ReaderBot]

There are other things you haven't factored in as well, such as free and discounted hardware. You would most certainly pay at least $250 for two dual-tuner TiVos plus hard drive upgrades at retail. And then you would still have to pay a subscription.

 

[max4677]

Can this software be used to make an old laptop behave like a networked TiVo so I can just stream things from one of my two TiVos to the PC? I have one in the living room and the one in the bedroom will be moving to the basement whenver I get a new TV. <BR><BR>I want to be able to stream things to the bedroom after that move. I know I can do it with TiVo desktop, but if this makes the interface easier to use for my wife AND comes with a remote she is familiar with, all the better. I wouldn't even worry about getting program listings or even recordings. Right now, I just want to extend where I can view the shows I already have.

 

[schizoide]

Does it support the Hauppauge HD-PVR? Any plans to do so? <BR><BR>Can it play non "*.tivo" MPEG-2 files through the main interface? I would love to use the tivo 10ft interface to play downloaded HD MKV, WMV, etcv, video. If not, any plans to allow this?

 

[0megapart!cle]

I have to say, looking at screenshots of LiquidTV's vaunted Tivo interface, it looks positively archaic compared to BeyondTV. I'm sure its fine, but I'm surely not going to pay MORE for it.<BR><BR>As far as my BeyondTV setup, I'm lucky, as I get my cable from school, so I get a boatload of channels through regular analog cable. (Every other place I have lived, the cable company required you to get digital cable to get some of the channels I like, which is more difficult to setup with any PC DVR). I used to run BeyondTV with 2 Hauppauge PVR USB2's, on my old 1.7 Ghz P-M, 1.5 GB Ram laptop. (It runs absolutely beautifully on older hardware, although if I am using both tuners, and watching a third show, I will shut down Opera to get the CPU usage down) Unfortunately, one of my tuners busted (smelled like burnt plastic, but couldn't see any physical damage), so I replaced it with a Divx plextor tv402u. Which works, but unfortunately, at similar quality settings, the files are only slightly smaller than the MPEG2 files that Hauppauge makes. That, and you have to run a 6-7 minute post-process on the files to get them down to that size (otherwise they are significantly larger than Hauppauge's MPEG2 files), or to view them outside of BeyondTV's interface. (As a side note, Sage so totally sucks compared to BeyondTV. I tried out SageTV because the Plextor files are smaller, but the actual interface is so slow and glitchy, and more importantly, almost half my recordings failed with Sage. I get maybe 1 or 2 recordings a month that fail with BeyondTV)<BR><BR>Sorry about the offtopic rant, but sufficely to say, I think LiquidTV will have a hard time finding buyers.