Google lays off “hundreds” more as ad division switches to AI-powered sales

Googlers are now building AI tools so other Googlers can be laid off.

See full article...

 

[Fatesrider]

We had a president recently who greatly expanded the standard deduction and cut many itemized deductions primarily employed by high-income households. I wouldn't expect the deduction to increase anytime soon.

Americans are broadly undertaxed and the brackets at low and you only pay 12% marginal tax at $44,725 AGI (nearly 60k in pre-tax income).

Plus SSI (6%, if you're employed and your employer pays the other 6%, but it's 12% if you're self-employed), plus state taxes (amounts differ, but they run from 13% at the high end for CA to 0 for several Red states - most of which run deficits or cut essential services like state road repairs, public hospitals, fire, ambulance, etc), plus state, county and city sales taxes (which can be as much as an extra 15% or more depending on the county or city).

That total can be upwards of 50% OR MORE of someone's annual income going to the feds, state, county or city. And that ONLY applies to the middle-income bracket. The poor see far more of their disposable income go to taxes by proportion than any other income bracket.

You don't really get "tax code" do you? It's not just ONE source adding to the headaches. It's multiple sources. Even if you're well under the federal taxable income level, you're still kicking out taxes that can take up to 25% out of your remaining income and EVERYONE pays the 12% (in total) for SSI if they have ANY income (because there is no minimum income level that isn't taxed by that).

This is largely why "death and taxes" are the two things one can't avoid in life.

 

[The Sheep Look Up]

the top performers in the company

We were talking about the C-suite, without which the company can typically continue to operate. What prevents recognition and retention of performance in a worker co-op?

 

[gregorerlich]

Increase corporate taxation, implement a universal income with it?

It's still insane to me that corporations are only taxed on profits. Imagine only paying taxes on the money you don't spend on housing, food, transportation, travel, video games, etc. Would be nice from the individual perspective, eh?

Taxes need to be on assets, not flows. Wealth inequality is, by definition, a difference in assets, not in flows, and the source of a huge number of problems in society.

A land-value tax is a great place to start. Read Henry George and Piketty if you'd like to know more...

 

[WhatDoesTheFoxSay]

Other than backing pro-labor candidates at every level of government, what can we do to help? And I am not asking rhetorically. I would love to see every big tech firm unionized, but it feels like a far-off dream right now. What are the first steps?

 

[psarhjinian]

Other than backing pro-labor candidates at every level of government, what can we do to help? And I am not asking rhetorically. I would love to see every big tech firm unionized, but it feels like a far-off dream right now. What are the first steps?

You're not going to like this answer.

Rich people need to be afraid again. They need to be so worried about bad things happening to either their bank accounts and/or their lives because the general populace has had enough that they're willing to renegotiate the social contract so it's not outrageously in their favour.

The last time we got stuff from the wealthy, they were scared of being hung, beaten and/or shot (early 20th century) or afraid of communism (mid- to late-20th century). The reason they're running roughshod over us now is because, instead of fearing the poor, they're contemptuous of them.

I really hate saying this, because I hate political and economic violence, but if a few rich people were killed and a few factories were burned, it'd probably change things. I'd like to say it'd be enough for a few countries to elect socialist governments, but we've seen those get immediately sabotaged, and frankly I think the political right is too good at manipulating populist rage.

So yes, do vote for labour-friendly candidates across the board. That's a good start, but convincing others to do so, and why they need to, will help more.

 

[JFTestudo]

I'll concede that most other countries don't have ideal, compassionate societies. Still, I would point to the Nordic countries as being closer to that ideal than the United States. Workers there aren't affected as badly by a job loss.

And I agree that losing your job isn't fun no matter where in the world you live. The larger point I was making was that layoffs aren't necessarily inherently bad and in fact may even be beneficial. In the long run, individuals are better off occasionally losing their job if that allows companies to be more flexible and productive, leading to greater profits and incomes. The economy functions better if companies can lay off workers during recessions or for strategic reasons.

Remember "aren't affected as badly" isn't the same as "aren't badly affected". Even on the graph above, people are still earning less after the layoff. Absolute income makes a difference here too -- the effect on somebody losing 20% of their salary from a base of $100K a year is different than somebody losing 20% of their salary from a base of $50K a year.

As stated, I agree with you about the need for labour market flexibility -- crap happens and you need the ability to layoff. (The only reason the company I work for survived is because of some hard decisions made during the pandemic.) And, I don't think anybody here really believes you shouldn't be able to layoff or fire people at all. But it could be done a lot better, with a lot more compassion, a lot more shared pain (glares at certain CEOs), and an understanding that management tried everything else before pushing the "throw people out the door" button.

It's fairly well documented that a lot of executives/owners reach for the layoff button as the first option, not the last option, while maintaining their own salaries. I feel like those leaders mistake expediency for efficiency in reducing cost as quickly as possible without any sense of compassion for the lives they're disrupting, or even destroying. (And I don't think that's too strong a word in an economy like the United States where the loss of private health insurance could be a literal life or death situation for somebody who's lost their job and can't find a replacement.)

Micro/Macro economic theory has its uses, but I find that people need to remember that when they're making decisions based on those theories, they're not affecting soulless textbook rational actors -- they're playing with people's lives and livelihoods.

 

[gafx]

Taxes need to be on assets, not flows. Wealth inequality is, by definition, a difference in assets, not in flows, and the source of a huge number of problems in society.

A land-value tax is a great place to start. Read Henry George and Piketty if you'd like to know more...

Isn't that what we have today via Property Tax? It still seems like a shell game, we all pay it no matter what, through increased property taxes or increased rent prices to cover the landlord's property tax.

 

[Geebs]

Anyone remember when Google's slogan was "Do no evil" or something like that?

Some of us are old enough to remember a far distant time, when it looked like Google were into using some of their massive profits to come up with cool new stuff which helped people.

 

[The Sheep Look Up]

Read Henry George

Not weighing in on land value tax -- I love seeing Georgists in the wild.

leaders

Bosses. Leaders lead. And unless they're leading the charge off the cliff, throwing others off is definitionally not leading.

Once you're above a certain point of wealth, you have to have a level of stunted empathy just to exist. If you didn't have that, you wouldn't have the wealth in the first place; you'd disburse the majority you clearly don't need as fast as you could move. The possible exception would be someone like a MacKenzie Scott where it's a precipitous launch to the top; however, she's had several years to knock down that personal wealth and there's still plenty of homeless people in Seattle (for starters). When your needs (and those of your future progeny) are met at every possible level and you can fulfill any rational wants, on some level you're perpetually repeating, "Sure, I have this thing that many people don't have and require to survive, but it's better in my hands because reasons." To them, you are reduced to a number on a spreadsheet, down the ol' Stalin Slide from tragedy to statistic.

Eliminate paycheck withholdings.

How does this address concentrated stores of wealth? Also, asked and unanswered:

What prevents recognition and retention of performance in a worker co-op?

 

[govk]

This is just the beginning. Many jobs will become obsolete. But Google is doing it backwards. Sales is one of those things you do want a human speaking to you with. You cannot automate away human interaction, and especially not on your primary revenue generator.

Then again if they should layoff anybody it would be all the useless projects they have under the rest of the Alphabet umbrella. Like the team that attempted to build a time machine (because of Larry Page tech bro stuff) and then stopped when they found out it violated the laws of physics. 10/10 R&D, would buy again.

Google has duplicated advertising products. One aimed at large clients ( the old doubleclick suite : display and video bidder , search and an ad server ) and another product available for everyone ( Google ads ). Both technology stack, which increasingly share common core components , has their own support and sales team. And both team would actually compete against each other for a given client. I guess Google is tackling the sales team duplication thingy and handing over to agencies/ consultancies the clients who are sort of maxed out in media spend with low increase in media spend possible on the near / mid term.

 

[gafx]

Not weighing in on land value tax -- I love seeing Georgists in the wild.


Bosses. Leaders lead. And unless they're leading the charge off the cliff, throwing others off is definitionally not leading.

Once you're above a certain point of wealth, you have to have a level of stunted empathy just to exist. If you didn't have that, you wouldn't have the wealth in the first place; you'd disburse the majority you clearly don't need as fast as you could move. The possible exception would be someone like a MacKenzie Scott where it's a precipitous launch to the top; however, she's had several years to knock down that personal wealth and there's still plenty of homeless people in Seattle (for starters). When your needs (and those of your future progeny) are met at every possible level and you can fulfill any rational wants, on some level you're perpetually repeating, "Sure, I have this thing that many people don't have and require to survive, but it's better in my hands because reasons." To them, you are reduced to a number on a spreadsheet, down the ol' Stalin Slide from tragedy to statistic.


How does this address concentrated stores of wealth? Also, asked and unanswered:

 

[omarsidd]

Y'all focused on Google specifically, but this is the problem with American style capitalism, especially big corp style.

Their goal isn't to "make enough profits", or to "benefit society", or to provide service, or be the best at what they do, or whatever else individuals and companies may have once focused on- but to make as much profit as possible. Goose those EPS, make some rich people even richer. That's the sole & overriding goal of American capitalism (seriously: read about fiduciary duty, if you didn't already know).

So now a rich company sees a chance to axe humans and make a little more margin. Google isn't the only one, and it won't be one of few. This why those of us who were thinking big picture were so anti-AI out of the gate.

This can be "fixed" at the societal level (takes a long time and many would resist it, even amongst Ars readership), governmentally (many would resist, need to pretty much completely neuter magaism first), or french revolution style. There is nothing in the system itself that would make it reform itself into magical nice corporate citizens. No matter the angry comments on articles like this. That's why the rare good corporate citizen gets written about (the exceptions that prove the rule).

So you either have to work on changing the system, or work on preventing its access to tools that enable the system's race to the bottom. But first you have to realize that's what's going on.

(also: page one commenters much too eager to point at the rare brown CEO specifically- one of only 14 of Fortune 500 that aren't white, hmmmmmm time to go google "implicit bias" while you're looking things up)

 

[Chuckstar]

This is really no different than engineers at GM figuring out how to make cars more efficiently, in order to reduce factory employment. And they’ve been doing that for over a hundred years.

Or anyone remember the tens of thousands of insurance company clerical staff put out of jobs by IT investments in the early 1990s?

 

[SubWoofer2]

cuts are mostly in the "Large Customer Sales" (LCS) team, which serves the company's biggest advertising clients.

Telephone sanitisers will be next.

 

[evighed]

The lack of accountability for the higher ups is my main issue when it comes to layoffs. If Google is doing so poorly that they have to lay people off then it's time for the C-Suite to get the heave-ho.

But yes, the US has a terrible system in place for those displaced by their jobs. Safety nets would go a long way (some will scream socialism) and for the couple of times I've faced a layoff, the lack of healthcare was the biggest concern.

Everyone should scream socialism, and be happy about it. Most Americans have no idea what socialism is, and don't realize that the government programs and policies that they like the best are the ones that are based on it.

Most of the routine horrors resulting from our laws are the result of nearly unfettered capitalism.

 

[House of Propane]

Plus SSI (6%, if you're employed and your employer pays the other 6%, but it's 12% if you're self-employed), plus state taxes (amounts differ, but they run from 13% at the high end for CA to 0 for several Red states - most of which run deficits or cut essential services like state road repairs, public hospitals, fire, ambulance, etc), plus state, county and city sales taxes (which can be as much as an extra 15% or more depending on the county or city).

That total can be upwards of 50% OR MORE of someone's annual income going to the feds, state, county or city. And that ONLY applies to the middle-income bracket. The poor see far more of their disposable income go to taxes by proportion than any other income bracket.

You don't really get "tax code" do you? It's not just ONE source adding to the headaches. It's multiple sources. Even if you're well under the federal taxable income level, you're still kicking out taxes that can take up to 25% out of your remaining income and EVERYONE pays the 12% (in total) for SSI if they have ANY income (because there is no minimum income level that isn't taxed by that).

This is largely why "death and taxes" are the two things one can't avoid in life.

Tax share of GDP are apples to apples comparisons to peer nations and USA regularly is on the low end of developed countries, around 20% of total GDP.

The high marginal rates you are complaining about only kick in at high incomes in the USA. In Western European nations they kick in super early and are combined with a high VAT.

 

[carlholmberg]

We could also tax the data centers more and explicitly tax excessive water usage. Maybe just stop subsidizing data centers so they have to carry their own costs could be a first step…

 

[Auie]

They should replace Sundar Pichai with an AI. That would save them more than all their (actually productive staff) lay-offs combined. Literally.

 

[dimathiel]

Increase corporate taxation, implement a universal income with it?

It's still insane to me that corporations are only taxed on profits. Imagine only paying taxes on the money you don't spend on housing, food, transportation, travel, video games, etc. Would be nice from the individual perspective, eh?

You could always incorporate and have your salary be paid to Yourself LLC as a contracted fee for services rendered.

 

[DaVuVuZeLa]

Sad for those people but not surprising. It's hard to be complacent as many jobs can and will be culled. Harder is to figure out what will replace them even though that happened in previous step changes in the past.

Nothing. Nothing will replace them. Buggy drivers won't become cabbies. Horseshoe fitters won't become mechanics. They'll just become unemployed and labeled dead weight by society.

 

[vought1221]

This should do wonders for morale over there. People are already scared of their shadows in their hardware worlds, Meta is eliminating entire classes of engineering roles at the drop of a hat…

 

[aleph_nought]

You're not going to like this answer.

Rich people need to be afraid again. They need to be so worried about bad things happening to either their bank accounts and/or their lives because the general populace has had enough that they're willing to renegotiate the social contract so it's not outrageously in their favour.

The last time we got stuff from the wealthy, they were scared of being hung, beaten and/or shot (early 20th century) or afraid of communism (mid- to late-20th century). The reason they're running roughshod over us now is because, instead of fearing the poor, they're contemptuous of them.

There are a few sections in Kim Stanley Robinson's Ministry For The Future that echo this. When people have had enough and they have nothing more to lose, then expect them to give up their lives in the hope their kids and grandkids have a better future.

It starts with autonomous drones targeting private jets and goes downhill from there. The drone warfare you see in Ukraine would be horrific if it was used by eco-terrorists, economic vigilantes and private militias, with no limits on rules of engagement.

 

[Chuckstar]

How many times must a dollar be taxed?
Corp profit tax
Fed income tax
State income tax
Cap gains and interest taxes
Fees when you use gov services (ok)
Speeding tickets
Property taxes
Sales tax
Inflation
Estate taxes

We went from revolution over a 6% sales tax just on tea... to this hellish thievery. We freed slaves, only to all become them, to too great an extent.

Considering it’s the same dollars that circulate through an economy again and again, that’s about the dumbest way to look at taxes I’ve ever seen. You haven’t even tried to understand how an economy works, yet feel knowledgeable enough to comment on tax policy? Is this what passes for an understanding of how taxes and the economy work among the right wing? If so, no wonder everything they come up with is so brain-dead stupid.

 

[Rabid_Rabbit]

Anyone remember when Google's slogan was "Do no evil" or something like that?

You see, they invested in AI and now reap benefits. Now their motto is : Do know evil.

 

[Tarod]

We're nothing for companies. Only flesh.

 

[Oliver Weichhold]

"Shareholder value", the gift that keeps on giving.

 

[Comradephate]

How many times must a dollar be taxed?
Corp profit tax
Fed income tax
State income tax
Cap gains and interest taxes
Fees when you use gov services (ok)
Speeding tickets
Property taxes
Sales tax
Inflation
Estate taxes

We went from revolution over a 6% sales tax just on tea... to this hellish thievery. We freed slaves, only to all become them, to too great an extent.

Obviously more than it currently is, because it is objectively true that wealth inequality continues to grow at a startling rate in every single neoliberal-or-worse country on earth.

 

[Comradephate]

Considering it’s the same dollars that circulate through an economy again and again, that’s about the dumbest way to look at taxes I’ve ever seen. You haven’t even tried to understand how an economy works, yet feel knowledgeable enough to comment on tax policy? Is this what passes for an understanding of how taxes and the economy work among the right wing? If so, no wonder everything they come up with is so brain-dead stupid.

Being a libertarian or ancap (which zero_page obviously is) requires understanding nothing about economics, and simultaneously being totally incapable of feeling empathy.

 

[MightBeAnAI]

I fully expect that at some point in the future that AI will be sentient enough to run / start its own businesses and AI will employee humans on jobs that it cannot yet do. People will actually have AI bosses. It is not here yet but it's coming, just wait.......

Some things you can but it’s wildly unfair for some and depends a lot where you live and your whole situation.

I pay 42,000 USD yearly for daycare for a one year old in NYC and can write off close to an effective 4k a year between cost deductions and credits.

 

[Comradephate]

Tax share of GDP are apples to apples comparisons to peer nations and USA regularly is on the low end of developed countries, around 20% of total GDP.

The high marginal rates you are complaining about only kick in at high incomes in the USA. In Western European nations they kick in super early and are combined with a high VAT.

The high marginal rates kick in in the top quintile in the US, depending on city, and then decline rapidly as you climb from 99th to 99.9th percentile. Discussing tax rates in the US while ignoring the fact that doctors pay the tax rates you're talking about, but Elon Musk does not, is carrying water for Elon Musk.

 

[I-ku-u]

Can't wait to see how this backfires on Google spectacularly

One thing no one here has mentioned is that it's been recently established that the AI created work (like the ads) aren't protected by copyright (without changing the law anyway).

Hopefully when this detail causes some blow up (perhaps by reusing an AI generated spokesperson in some very negative way, for example) the result isn't to change the law.

 

[ConfusedBystander]

Customer: "Hello Google ad-sales bot. I'd like to purchase a relevant ad that will not annoy potential buyers and create a positive image for my product."

AI: "Apologies, but I am unable to provide the information you're seeking."

 

[Ushio]

Any country spending more on defense than health in peacetime is doing it wrong.

A shame that when the war starts the enemy rarely gives you years to rebuild the military before attacking.

The EU is lucky in that it's only potential enemy is the incredibly incompetent Russia and US military spending funding Ukraine.

The US may not be so lucky with China and they may actually be competent enemies!

 

[Comradephate]

Any country spending more on defense than health in peacetime is doing it wrong.

what country does this even describe? Certainly not the US, where medicaid, medicare, and veteran services are close to 30% of the budget. The department of health and human services is the federal agency that receives the most money, even more than the social security administration.

 

[cybertosher]

Time to tax AIs. Let's start with 1000% and move up from there.

I think it’s time to apply labor tax to automation. Tax each hour that the robot or AI works, and use that to create a safety net for the people who made companies like Google rich, only to be thrown to the wolves later. Why do we tax human labor and not machine labor doing the same work?

 

[cybertosher]

what country does this even describe? Certainly not the US, where medicaid, medicare, and veteran services are close to 30% of the budget. The department of health and human services is the federal agency that receives the most money, even more than the social security administration.

Yes. The US spends about as much per capital as countries with functioning national health care systems. We just have worse outcomes, less coverage, and what is that other thing? Oh yeah, freedom.

 

[2TurnersNotEnough]

what country does this even describe? Certainly not the US, where medicaid, medicare, and veteran services are close to 30% of the budget. The department of health and human services is the federal agency that receives the most money, even more than the social security administration.

The adage that the US government is a big insurance company with an army attached seems appropriate here.

Edit: better word choice