Gaming thoughts, bite-size chewables - new orange flavor!

[HiroTheProtagonist]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulta...cial-loss-leads-to-over-1000-layoffs-at-epic/

Hell of a layoff announced over at Epic. Guess Fortnite isn't raking in cash like before.

"This also comes in the wake of Tim Sweeney saying that losses may total more that $1 billion in the four years after Apple kicked Fortnite off the iOS app store for purposefully violating its policies."

And yet another business genius learns the hard way that 70% of a sum of money is still much larger than 100% of nothing.

 

[Artichoke Sap]

Ah, so the fact that original Fortnite ("Save the World") is going F2P in April isn't a sign of hope for StW, it's a sign of desperation. Alas.

 

[alterSchwede]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulta...cial-loss-leads-to-over-1000-layoffs-at-epic/

Hell of a layoff announced over at Epic. Guess Fortnite isn't raking in cash like before.

How independent are their other business interests like engine development and their store from Fortnite largesse?
If not very, that might have some impact on the rest of the industry.
A more expensive engine might hurt in general (but improve the traversal / shader compilation stutter situation throughout the industry).
The few that kept their custom tech might actually turn out to be winners in the end.
Fewer free games might improve price stability on average. Maybe. By a cent or two. But that might also make the store pointless.
Are people actually buying games through Epic?

 

[Ryan B.]

You know what this reminds me of? It reminds me of Rovio. Now, Rovio is the company that made Angry Birds. Do I know what else they've done? No I do not, and that right there is the problem, and is why I recall reading a story years and years ago about them laying off most of their staff.

(The numbers I recall were reducing headcount from 700 to 200, but it's been years so don't quote me.)

Epic is far from a one-trick pony, but having so many of your corporate eggs in one very big basket is still problematic, it would seem.

 

[Saikaici]

That's a whole lot of overstatement. Epic games is fine, Fortnite isn't going anywhere. WoW, Overwatch, and League of Legends (Other Juggernauts in the past) still make plenty of money. Maybe not as much as they did in their heyday, but their finances are the envy of the rest of the normal gaming developers.

Epic also has you know, Unreal Engine. A mainstay of gaming before Fortnite, and I think it's only grown in the past decade.

If anything the biggest disappointment is they've been incredibly headstrong and fretted away lots of money on stupid decisions instead of actually taking it seriously.

 

[BigLan]

If anything the biggest disappointment is they've been incredibly headstrong and fretted away lots of money on stupid decisions instead of actually taking it seriously.

Hey, don't you badmouth the library of free games I'll never play in my Epic Account like that

About the only good thing to come out of the Fortnite cash is being able to bankroll the App Store litigation which has seen some small wins against the walled gardens.

 

[Locke]

There is a big, big area between a 3,000 person dev team and floundering.

I think we all forget sometimes how big modern dev teams are. Games aren't made by a roomful of dudes coding their hearts out. They're made by hundreds, if not thousands of artists cranking out textures, models and animations as much as anything else these days.

Valve and Bethesda are the smallest AAA studios these days because they're under 500 people. And both of them outsource a ton of work. Valve to contractors and Bethesda to modders.

 

[charliebird]

At least the Epic Games Store is raking in heaps of cash. Tim Sweeney must be thrilled he divested so much into taking on Valve. Certainly, nobody in or outside the industry could have seen that not working out. It is a bold strategy to burn billions just to prove you are the smartest guy in a room that is currently being cleared for layoffs.

 

[Nekojin]

You know what this reminds me of? It reminds me of Rovio. Now, Rovio is the company that made Angry Birds. Do I know what else they've done? No I do not, and that right there is the problem, and is why I recall reading a story years and years ago about them laying off most of their staff.

(The numbers I recall were reducing headcount from 700 to 200, but it's been years so don't quote me.)

Epic is far from a one-trick pony, but having so many of your corporate eggs in one very big basket is still problematic, it would seem.

They made a lot of Angry Birds sequels and spin-offs, like Angry Birds Star Wars and Bad Piggies. They have a small number of non-Angry Birds games in their catalog, but their catalog is MUCH broader before Angry Birds was a hit, and nothing else before or since has actually made a dent in their budget. As a result, they got bought by Sega in 2023 (largely for the IP), so you'll probably never hear the Rovio name again.

They're very much the epitome of a one-trick pony. Epic, at least, has the Unreal Tournament, Borderlands, and a smattering of other titles to fall back on if Fortnite crumbles.

 

[Locke]

At least the Epic Games Store is raking in heaps of cash. Tim Sweeney must be thrilled he divested so much into taking on Valve. Certainly, nobody in or outside the industry could have seen that not working out. It is a bold strategy to burn billions just to prove you are the smartest guy in a room that is currently being cleared for layoffs.

I think It is unlikely EGS cost billions of dollars.

Costing a single billion dollars in dev time would be 1,000 developers working 5 years at 200k/yr/ea.

Modern CDNs and Cloud providers have made hosting files incredibly cheap. It isn't 2005 any more, digital delivery is largely a solved problem. I've been on projects that stood up basic digital delivery mechanisms in days to weeks for hundreds to single digit thousand dollars for much smaller scale. Given the slow pace of development its pretty clear it has a small team. I wouldn't be surprised if its at breakeven or near breakeven.

The UI/UX for that is an unsolved problem for it though.

I would rather a billionaire try and crack a few monopolies than play Hank Scorpio or enter the mega yacht dick measuring contest. I never quite understand the vitriol that gets summoned whenever someone tries to take on Valve.

But, having actually played their games recently I've been exposed to their abject greed more than most people. They're ground zero for everything people hate in the industry, but somehow they've avoided all the blow back. I think one day we'll get a good breakdown of all the shit they've pulled, particularly with gambling and esports and people will see Valve in a new light. You don't pay people leaving the company 6 figure "bonuses" for signing an NDA if you don't have shit to hide.

 

[Saikaici]

I would rather a billionaire try and crack a few monopolies than play Hank Scorpio or enter the mega yacht dick measuring contest. I never quite understand the vitriol that gets summoned whenever someone tries to take on Valve.

Mostly the vitriol comes from competitors half-assing it. EGS launched without a shopping cart. You know, like out-of-box retail websites at least have that feature, and have for the past 20 years. It's mostly that other giants have attempted, and failed HARD to breach the market because they don't have a single person who is actually a gamer to lead the storefront design.

GOG is probably the closest solid competitor I would consider. The issue is that I think of them for old games, not new ones. So I don't expect them to have the latest releases. It's more of a marketing issue.

But, having actually played their games recently I've been exposed to their abject greed more than most people. They're ground zero for everything people hate in the industry, but somehow they've avoided all the blow back. I think one day we'll get a good breakdown of all the shit they've pulled, particularly with gambling and esports and people will see Valve in a new light. You don't pay people leaving the company 6 figure "bonuses" for signing an NDA if you don't have shit to hide.

I mean, I've always known there's major issues with valve and loot boxes. But they're kind of grandfathered to evade the majority of the lootbox crisis that spawned some lootbox banning around 2016 with Overwatch's release. I consider it more of an open secret.

It's also hard for me to complain, when I've literally made hundreds of dollars off of playing ~700 hours of counter strike around 2010. I've already sold ~$150 worth of stuff a few years back and currently my case collection on some 3rd party sites say it's worth $1100+

Definitely sketchy, but better return than bitcoin right now.

 

[Louis XVI]

That's a whole lot of overstatement. Epic games is fine, Fortnite isn't going anywhere. WoW, Overwatch, and League of Legends (Other Juggernauts in the past) still make plenty of money. Maybe not as much as they did in their heyday, but their finances are the envy of the rest of the normal gaming developers.

Epic also has you know, Unreal Engine. A mainstay of gaming before Fortnite, and I think it's only grown in the past decade.

If anything the biggest disappointment is they've been incredibly headstrong and fretted away lots of money on stupid decisions instead of actually taking it seriously.

That seems like an unwarranted amount of confidence for a company that just laid off 20% of its workforce.

 

[Sulphur]

They're very much the epitome of a one-trick pony. Epic, at least, has the Unreal Tournament, Borderlands, and a smattering of other titles to fall back on if Fortnite crumbles.

Borderlands, the Gearbox franchise? Unreal Tournament, where the latest entry was UT3 in 2007?

I don't want Epic to fail as competition's always a good idea, but they haven't exactly been making new IP or using their old IP to any real degree since Fortnite went big. Their biggest asset is Unreal Engine after Fortnite, AFAICT, so they won't sink hard if Fortnite shrinks - but they will need to think very hard about what they want to do next if slapping movies and concerts into their multiplayer battle royale game is no longer working.

 

[Nekojin]

Borderlands, the Gearbox franchise? Unreal Tournament, where the latest entry was UT3 in 2007?

I don't want Epic to fail as competition's always a good idea, but they haven't exactly been making new IP or using their old IP to any real degree since Fortnite went big. Their biggest asset is Unreal Engine after Fortnite, AFAICT, so they won't sink hard if Fortnite shrinks - but they will need to think very hard about what they want to do next if slapping movies and concerts into their multiplayer battle royale game is no longer working.

You misunderstand. I'm saying Rovio was a one-trick pony, not Epic. Even before Angry Birds, almost all of their games had the same schtick - kinetic motion/impacts.

Edit: I'm misunderstanding what you were saying, I apologize. Unreal Tournament is shelved in favor of a more popular PvP model that's in vogue right now. That doesn't mean it's gone forever.

 

[Sulphur]

No worries. What I mean is that Epic hasn't flexed its gaming chops in anything but Fortnite for ages now, which doesn't bode well for if they need to pivot away from it to succeed. Even if UT is resurrected now, it's not going to be as big as Fortnite, because vanilla PvP is old hat. They need to innovate, and it's a question mark now as to whether they really can instead of chasing the next big trend.

 

[travisthehuman]

Is Gears of War still active? I seem to recall those getting released from time to time. That's Epic IP right? I know there is a big Gears of War statue in the cafeteria area on the Epic campus.

 

[Sulphur]

Owned by Microsoft. The original trilogy was developed by Epic and published by MS. The franchise was handed off to MS's internal studio after that - Gears 4 and 5 were by The Coalition.

 

[Quarthinos]

No worries. What I mean is that Epic hasn't flexed its gaming chops in anything but Fortnite for ages now, which doesn't bode well for if they need to pivot away from it to succeed. Even if UT is resurrected now, it's not going to be as big as Fortnite, because vanilla PvP is old hat. They need to innovate, and it's a question mark now as to whether they really can instead of chasing the next big trend.

The original Fortnite (now tagged "Save The World", I guess?) was an attempt to innovate. They just correctly read the tea leaves scattered by PUBG and jumped faster than anyone else. But you're right in that they'll need to come up with another idea if they want a new Unreal tech demo game to be more than just a tech demo.

edit: See Rage 1 for a tech demo and also a game that ended more of the first than the second.

 

[HiroTheProtagonist]

You misunderstand. I'm saying Rovio was a one-trick pony, not Epic. Even before Angry Birds, almost all of their games had the same schtick - kinetic motion/impacts.

Edit: I'm misunderstanding what you were saying, I apologize. Unreal Tournament is shelved in favor of a more popular PvP model that's in vogue right now. That doesn't mean it's gone forever.

There was an Unreal Tournament that got released some time around 2015 IIRC, but I also recall it was little more than a pure tech demo for UE4 and the second Overwatch spun up Epic pulled it from their servers and tried to erase it from the collective consciousness. Unless arena shooters that aren't built around "hero" mechanics come back into vogue, I doubt we're ever going to see an actual UT ever again.

It's weirdly telling that after a decade-plus of the boomer shooter revival, almost none of the games have put any focus on the multiplayer aspect of the classics, despite the fact that deathmatch/CTF were arguably more popular than the single player campaigns ever were for most games.

 

[travisthehuman]

It's weirdly telling that after a decade-plus of the boomer shooter revival, almost none of the games have put any focus on the multiplayer aspect of the classics, despite the fact that deathmatch/CTF were arguably more popular than the single player campaigns ever were for most games.

Those that have died a horrible death. Or were terribly implemented.
The team deathmatch of Doom 2016 was actually great gameplay, just terrible implementation. Long queue times, team-only, short games, no option to create your own.

There have been lots of attempts to do multiplayer-only arena(boomer) shooter revivals. Sadly I own a bunch of these on steam, all of which have decent gameplay and ZERO players.

 

[Frosty Grin]

Mostly the vitriol comes from competitors half-assing it. EGS launched without a shopping cart. You know, like out-of-box retail websites at least have that feature, and have for the past 20 years.

It seems reasonable - until you consider that the vitriol about not being able to buy many games at once was coming from the people who haven't bought a single one. Early on, when EGS had a limited selection of games, it wasn't a real issue anyway. It was people rationalizing their vitriol. Origin and Uplay had a shopping cart - and there was still a ton of vitriol towards them.

 

[Scifigod]

I picked this up on sale after trying the demo. I'm not really a fan of the wizardry style gameplay but I do love the crayon aesthetic.

View: https://store.steampowered.com/app/3989640/A_Kobold_Story__Trenchcoat_Adventurer/

 

[Thorvard]

Hmm

I feel the opposite I love Wizardry style gameplay but I don't know if I can embrace that style. I'll try the demo to at least see

 

[Peldor]

I think we all forget sometimes how big modern dev teams are. Games aren't made by a roomful of dudes coding their hearts out. They're made by hundreds, if not thousands of artists cranking out textures, models and animations as much as anything else these days.

You're not kidding, I finished Assassin's Creed Mirage over the weekend (which is smaller than other recent AC games), and sat through the entire end credits which fortunately had a "fast scroll" option. Even at the fast rate (probably 3-4x normal) it was like 20 minutes of credits. Had to be well over 1000 people.

 

[Frosty Grin]

You're not kidding, I finished Assassin's Creed Mirage over the weekend (which is smaller than other recent AC games), and sat through the entire end credits which fortunately had a "fast scroll" option. Even at the fast rate (probably 3-4x normal) it was like 20 minutes of credits. Had to be well over 1000 people.

Made me wonder how it compares to the very first AC game - and apparently it had 800+ names too. So at least things aren't exponential.

 

[Saikaici]

It seems reasonable - until you consider that the vitriol about not being able to buy many games at once was coming from the people who haven't bought a single one. Early on, when EGS had a limited selection of games, it wasn't a real issue anyway. It was people rationalizing their vitriol. Origin and Uplay had a shopping cart - and there was still a ton of vitriol towards them.

Origin and Uplay were at the forefront of swapping to their own launchers. They got hate for their own other reasons, whether they were valid or not. I used both, and it was more of just a pain to have a separate launcher for them. It's more about hating the companies they embody - EA support still has the most downvoted reddit comment, I believe.

EGS made a very bad decision by playing the exclusives card. It's also why I never bothered to log in to claim free EGS games that I never knew I would play. I'll defend jumping on the dogpile for not having a cart though. It just shows the lack of care put into the EGS platform, and it definitely set them off on the wrong foot.

At the end of the day, it's obvious that EGS cared more about developers than the customers. That's why I still actively dislike EGS. They have a "build it and they will come" mentality, but they don't care about what they built, they care about $$$, not you. Every play they made as a new store shows where their priorities lie.

 

[travisthehuman]

All of my gripes about all the stores revolve around them popping up a window when I don't want them to, and not starting in the system tray/minimized. Essentially none of them aside from Steam are couch-game friendly. Epic is 2nd best in that its mostly ok, once you disable cloud saves.

I give them a pass because of the sheer number of free games I have from them, some of which I've logged a LOT of time in.

 

[whoisit]

Made me wonder how it compares to the very first AC game - and apparently it had 800+ names too. So at least things aren't exponential.

If Activision has the Call of Duty mines, where developers toil to make the next iteration of the same thing, UbiSoft has the Assassin's Creed mines.


View: https://youtu.be/VoAfb3f04mo?si=4-tMLk3aASK9p_dB

 

[Ryan B.]

Origin and Uplay were at the forefront of swapping to their own launchers. They got hate for their own other reasons, whether they were valid or not. I used both, and it was more of just a pain to have a separate launcher for them. It's more about hating the companies they embody - EA support still has the most downvoted reddit comment, I believe.

EGS made a very bad decision by playing the exclusives card. It's also why I never bothered to log in to claim free EGS games that I never knew I would play. I'll defend jumping on the dogpile for not having a cart though. It just shows the lack of care put into the EGS platform, and it definitely set them off on the wrong foot.

At the end of the day, it's obvious that EGS cared more about developers than the customers. That's why I still actively dislike EGS. They have a "build it and they will come" mentality, but they don't care about what they built, they care about $$$, not you. Every play they made as a new store shows where their priorities lie.

I disagree that the exclusives card was a bad decision. They needed to do something to get people to use their store. Because the fact is, most people are pretty happy with Steam. It's not perfect, but it's really quite good. And offering a lower store commission to entice developers was a good move too.

They just forgot to do the most important part, which is to make their store better than Steam in literally any way. GOG has their game preservation and DRM-free angles to entice consumers. What does Epic have? Free games? Pssh. We all have too many games already. Give me a friction-free interface, a reliable backend, and an effective and accurate recommendation/discovery engine, and maybe then we'll talk.

 

[Saikaici]

I disagree that the exclusives card was a bad decision. They needed to do something to get people to use their store. Because the fact is, most people are pretty happy with Steam. It's not perfect, but it's really quite good. And offering a lower store commission to entice developers was a good move too.

Taking games already listed on Steam and then turning them into exclusives - you know, actively inconveniencing players on another platform isn't a good move.

 

[BigLan]

All of my gripes about all the stores revolve around them popping up a window when I don't want them to, and not starting in the system tray/minimized. Essentially none of them aside from Steam are couch-game friendly. Epic is 2nd best in that its mostly ok, once you disable cloud saves.

I give them a pass because of the sheer number of free games I have from them, some of which I've logged a LOT of time in.

I really don't have a problem with any launchers, except Steam's Big Picture which is a pox that should be thrown in the fires of mount doom. Whichever developer decided to map that to the Xbox guide button deserves a special place in hell. Nothing like an interface locking up your system for several seconds doing something you don't want it to, with no easy way to disable it and no easy way to get out of it once it has taken over your screen.

Oh, I guess I wish someone would teach Uplay how to launch without triggering a UAC prompt too. Vista came out nearly 20 years ago and they still haven't figured that out. It's impressed that it somehow prompts even if you install Uplay outside of Program Files.

 

[whoisit]

I'd like UbiConnect to launch silently. I don't need a splash screen for it every time I reboot my computer. Steam and GOG Galaxy have figured it out.

 

[Papageno]

It had just as many Japanese-sounding names as Neuromancer and Shadowrun did.

edit: I guess Shadowrun wasn't released until the next year.

Late to the party on this topic but since the TTRPG that is the IP foundation of the current CRPG was created in the 1980s when everyone thought Japan was destined to eat the rest of the world's lunch, it's pretty much inevitable that it's the way it is in terms of Japan's influence on the game world's look and lore.

 

[Frosty Grin]

They just forgot to do the most important part, which is to make their store better than Steam in literally any way. GOG has their game preservation and DRM-free angles to entice consumers.

And GOG still isn't popular. I mean, people do act like they like GOG - but the sales aren't there. The most important part isn't to be better, anyway. It's for people to appreciate having another option. Realistically, it's not like Epic was trying to replace Steam. It's just that having a different store, with different algorithms and different sales could be good.

 

[ScifiGeek]

And GOG still isn't popular. I mean, people do act like they like GOG - but the sales aren't there. The most important part isn't to be better, anyway. It's for people to appreciate having another option. Realistically, it's not like Epic was trying to replace Steam. It's just that having a different store, with different algorithms and different sales could be good.

GOG ultimately depends on how much people want to be free of DRM.

I have over 150 games on GOG. I have ZERO games at any other game store.

Some of care a LOT about DRM freedom GOG offers, and live buy it.

People that don't care about DRM will mostly just go with Steam or use all the stores to get the most freebies/deals.

Ultimately most people just don't care that much about DRM enough to make any kind of stand over it.

 

[rtrefz]

Over half of my games are from GoG, but I'm also old, and have an under-powered gaming PC. I'm not the target audience for new PC games.

 

[Nauls]

TIL that Crimson Desert has cat companions (including fat chonkers) that you build up trust with by picking them up, carrying them around and petting them. They will then follow you on your adventures and help loot the bodies of your slain enemies. If you hang around in one spot long enough they’ll crawl up and plop down on your shoulder. You can even dress them in fancy outfits.

I am here for this.

 

[Scifigod]

I've heard you can do the same with dogs.

 

[Lt_Storm]

TIL that Crimson Desert has cat companions (including fat chonkers) that you build up trust with by picking them up, carrying them around and petting them. They will then follow you on your adventures and help loot the bodies of your slain enemies. If you hang around in one spot long enough they’ll crawl up and plop down on your shoulder. You can even dress them in fancy outfits.

I am here for this.

View attachment 131422

GOTY. Or is that the GOAT feature?

 

[invertedpanda]

TIL that Crimson Desert has cat companions (including fat chonkers) that you build up trust with by picking them up, carrying them around and petting them. They will then follow you on your adventures and help loot the bodies of your slain enemies. If you hang around in one spot long enough they’ll crawl up and plop down on your shoulder. You can even dress them in fancy outfits.

I am here for this.

View attachment 131422

..Shit, I wasn't going to get the game, but maybe now when it's on sale.