Foundation Season 2: Foundation and Empire?

[Carhole]

Two days from now S2 will premiere. Let’s see how Apple does in their continuance of this masterpiece cum mashup of timelines and altered, well, every character. The S1 finale left open some intriguing possibilities for how the show runners could adapt to culling plot lines from the books in order to meet strict season runs and budgets (let’s hope we don’t see the crowd of ten people constituting an army again budget) and whether or not the scope of the full story gets hashed out at all, or if if they just base their show evermore loosely off of the source material.

Season two premieres this Friday on Apple TV+. Let’s spoiler major plays from the books for the pure streaming production crowd as a courtesy. Erect your space elevators!

 

[dmsilev]

I feel this thread should be titled Foundation and Empire, both because that's what Asimov used for volume 2 of the trilogy and because, well, Empire was by far the more interesting part of Season 1.

Anyway, looking forward to S2. Given the names of a couple of characters (Hober Mallow and Bel Riose) mentioned to be in this season, there's going to be at least some mixture of the end of book 1 and the beginning of book 2. And (presumably) lots of stuff written from scratch for the show.

 

[Megalodon]

Kinda suspect they will do the first half of book 2 for season 2 as they can get another season out of The Mule stuff from book 2.

 

[Carhole]

Edited thread title per suggestion and with a remains-to-be-seen question mark for the cutting floor wary.

 

[designmerc]

Trailer 2


View: https://youtube.com/watch?v=kBHT1oebvDk

 

[Ardax]

Kinda suspect they will do the first half of book 2 for season 2 as they can get another season out of The Mule stuff from book 2.

There's a lot going on in the trailer. And from "Hari, Gaal, and Salvor discover a colony of Mentalics with special abilities that threaten to alter psychohistory itself." in the description we're getting a lot of setup for a huge chunk of the Gaia storyline. I could see a potential Season 3 revolving around The Mule's upbringing, escape from Gaia, and rise and fall.

The showrunners seem to be taking a lot of liberties with the storylines to create a show that carries the themes of Foundation without slavishly attempting to recreate the novels. I mean, it was pretty clear in Season 1, but Season 2 seems to be going even farther off the reservation.

Finally, there's "The Fight"


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCPKoiks7yE

 

[Yagisama]

Foundation was my favorite series of the last few years. I am excite!

Also, I watch this thread!

 

[dmsilev]

There's a lot going on in the trailer. And from "Hari, Gaal, and Salvor discover a colony of Mentalics with special abilities that threaten to alter psychohistory itself." in the description we're getting a lot of setup for a huge chunk of the Gaia storyline.

That seems likely, though I suppose it could also be a setup for the Second Foundation. They spent a good chunk of season 1 dropping hints about Gaal being psychic and Hari wanting her to start the 2F, so presumably that's leading up to something.

 

[dmsilev]

Episode 1 now available. Lots of story setup (shocker!) and some trippy visualizations of 4D space.

 

[Carhole]

I’m sold on it. They’ve managed to create an enthralling story and at this point it can do pretty much anything but hope it doesn’t and just keeps up the excellent work showing how Lee Pace shivs every good piece of advice to come his way with a razor sword. Much less interested in the Gaal/Salvor/Hari setup but I see that as only having room to improve now. The assassination scene was well done!

 

[byrningman]

Haven’t seen the new episode yet, but the trailer for this season looks great.

 

[MichaelC]

 

[Carhole]

Show is picking up steam. I’m really liking what they’re doing in S2 thus far. I’d also by lying if I said that I didn’t want a stand-alone series involving Lee Pace’s Day going around doing Empire stuff. What an excellent character he makes and the dynamic with Demerezel is just so perfectly complementing as is the new marital prospect’s angling. Love it.

 

[GaitherBill]

If only Empire had filed it’s TPS reports properly!

 

[dmsilev]

Yeah, I'm liking this so far. I am sad that they seem to be changing the location of the Second Foundation; I always liked the conceit that "the other end of the galaxy" should be interpreted in a social context not as a physical direction and therefore galactic-capitol Trantor as the opposite of frontier-town Terminus was the answer to the riddle.

Seems a bit premature, even in a flash-forward, to show the Mule, but I guess it had to come sometime.

 

[wireframed]

Yeah, I'm liking this so far. I am sad that they seem to be changing the location of the Second Foundation; I always liked the conceit that "the other end of the galaxy" should be interpreted in a social context not as a physical direction and therefore galactic-capitol Trantor as the opposite of frontier-town Terminus was the answer to the riddle.

Seems a bit premature, even in a flash-forward, to show the Mule, but I guess it had to come sometime.

Haven’t started season 2, but wasn’t it also physically “the other end” because the galaxy is a spiral and Trantor was near the center? So opposite the Foundation if you followed the spiral to the center.

 

[Megalodon]

There's a lot going on in the trailer. And from "Hari, Gaal, and Salvor discover a colony of Mentalics with special abilities that threaten to alter psychohistory itself." in the description we're getting a lot of setup for a huge chunk of the Gaia storyline. I could see a potential Season 3 revolving around The Mule's upbringing, escape from Gaia, and rise and fall.

The showrunners seem to be taking a lot of liberties with the storylines to create a show that carries the themes of Foundation without slavishly attempting to recreate the novels. I mean, it was pretty clear in Season 1, but Season 2 seems to be going even farther off the reservation.

Adaptation changes are always necessary because it's a different medium but in this case and especially with the earlier books there just isn't that much material.

 

[dmsilev]

Haven’t started season 2, but wasn’t it also physically “the other end” because the galaxy is a spiral and Trantor was near the center? So opposite the Foundation if you followed the spiral to the center.

It’s been a while since I read the stories, but I think that was one of the proposed ideas. The others being the obvious ‘diametrically opposite to Terminus' and 'a circle has no end', drawing a circumference around the galaxy to argue that the 2F was actually embedded inside the 1F. But the real answer to the riddle was ‘you’re asking the wrong question'.

 

[dmsilev]

Ep 3. Still not a fan of the Hari/Gaal yell-at-each-other thing. Nice visuals though.

Belisarius, excuse me Bel Riose, on the other hand, is off to a good start. That facedown with Brother Day was an impressive introduction.

And the James Bond Villain prize for Most Unnecessarily Baroque Execution Method goes to…

 

[Carhole]

Pardon I’m washy but was the sub plot with Hari bargaining in 4D prison with the older mathematician who the materializes in into flesh at Al, related to book arcs or are we so far off the material at this point to just say it’s based off of the Asimov novels? I don’t re,ember any of this stuff from when I was a kid trying to make sense of the story.

I liked the planet-scouring crab robots cleansing away all life even new life upon detection. That runs a creepy overkill Empire MO in keeping with who we’re seeing Day shape up to be.

Ep 3. Still not a fan of the Hari/Gaal yell-at-each-other thing. Nice visuals though.

Belisarius, excuse me Bel Riose, on the other hand, is off to a good start. That facedown with Brother Day was an impressive introduction.

And the James Bond Villain prize for Most Unnecessarily Baroque Execution Method goes to…

That was some brace writing in my opinion to hang Belisarius’ existence on a battle of wits, to the death, naturally. His interaction with Demerazel was also a good intro into telling us that this guys sees many moves ahead in the games in which he plays. Calling out Empire’s embarrassment was sweet, as was his reunion with the husband. I’m not so trusting there. I do think that he is either. But this is a good entry.

The whole Harbor Malow scene was a bit over the top into whimsical for the show.

Back to Day’s increasing sidelining of Dawn and Dusk, this again remains the most intriguing arc of the whole series to me.

 

[GaitherBill]

What’s Demirzel up to?

She’s up to something!

I’m betting the newly freed General is going to be having a chat with Hari sooner rather than later.

 

[dmsilev]

Pardon I’m washy but was the sub plot with Hari bargaining in 4D prison with the older mathematician who the materializes in into flesh at Al, related to book arcs or are we so far off the material at this point to just say it’s based off of the Asimov novels? I don’t re,ember any of this stuff from when I was a kid trying to make sense of the story.

Completely made up for the show. Book Seldon was dead fairly early on, and appeared thereafter as pure recordings, usually at the end of each short story to explain the underlying reason why the Crisis just endured was inevitable and Part of the Plan. Except when things went off the rails when the Mule showed up.

 

[Carhole]

Completely made up for the show. Book Seldon was dead fairly early on, and appeared thereafter as pure recordings, usually at the end of each short story to explain the underlying reason why the Crisis just endured was inevitable and Part of the Plan. Except when things went off the rails when the Mule showed up.

Thanks for that, I have zero recollection of this.

 

[Klockwerk]

What’s Demirzel up to?

She’s up to something!

I’m betting the newly freed General is going to be having a chat with Hari sooner rather than later.

I've half convinced myself that Demirzel has decided to hasten the end of Empire.

 

[GaitherBill]

I've half convinced myself that Demirzel has decided to hasten the end of Empire.

Same.

She sees the genetic dynasty as now not being pure, so fuck It. Blow it up!

 

[Carhole]

Same.

She sees the genetic dynasty as now not being pure, so fuck It. Blow it up!

Kinda this, then rule for a bit before ?

 

[byrningman]

Just watched the third episode of season 2. This season is much stronger than the first, I wish the first season could have started so strongly. The new characters‘ introductions have all really worked for me, I’m interested in every plot line equally at the moment. I also like how in this recent episode multiple characters and plot lines are explicitly debating the “human agency vs. psychohistorical theory” question, which is smart and keeps the spirit of the show very true to Asimov’s ideas even as it deviates in terms of story and plot.

Also love how they’re showing the deterioration in human society, the tin pot despots and so on that are springing up.

 

[dmsilev]

Couple of episodes later...
I guess we're doing alternating storylines, one episode focusing on the First Foundation and Bel Riose, and the next on Gaal and Hari and so forth. With Empire and the increasingly fucked-up situation on Trantor interwoven throughout. The latter appears to be going off the rails in pretty much every direction that rails possibly go, Still, it gives Lee Pace the opportunity to do some primo scenery-chewing, so I'm there for it.

 

[Yagisama]

Well, that one something. How do you out maneuver mind readers?

 

[GaitherBill]

I think I’ve got it figured out.




It’s been Demirzel the whole time!

Or at least since Hari Seldon showed up. He’s caused a bit of a glitch in her programming.

She’s responsible for the alterations to the genetic dynasty, among other things.

She’s been quietly steering the less than intelligent Cleon Into a certain path.

And she is most definitely behind the memory erasures Bother Dawn and Duck discovered.

 

[Carhole]

I think I’ve got it figured out.




It’s been Demirzel the whole time!

Or at least since Hari Seldon showed up. He’s caused a bit of a glitch in her programming.

She’s responsible for the alterations to the genetic dynasty, among other things.

She’s been quietly steering the less than intelligent Cleon Into a certain path.

And she is most definitely behind the memory erasures Bother Dawn and Duck discovered.

One thing is unquestionably building in S2 and that’s the predicable but necessary revelation that she’s a survivor of millennia’s past and threatens all humans by existing, thus she’ll either follow a similar arc to your prediction or by protecting herself contribute to Empire’s downfall —a reactionary chaotic.

 

[GaitherBill]

Can we all agree that Cleon isn‘t the brightest bulb?

 

[GaitherBill]

Well then.

Is Hari v.human really dead? Does Salvor save him last second?

If I’m Dusk and Dawn, I kill Day. Then take the obvious brides.

Demerizel might have this in mind already. She’s plotting something.

I hope Constance and Poly are ok!

 

[dmsilev]

Obvious cliffhanger ending is obvious...

(OK, now watch me get proven wrong when this week's episode comes out).

I will say that, with regards to the extended flashback scene, there are many recovering academics who have fantasized about doing something similar to a dean or a provost.

 

[Yagisama]

Exactly! In the case of modern age academics it'd include a whole lot of spherical cows and stampede modeling.

 

[Carhole]

So who’s gonna Force-push who into the pile of floating bodies. Or will it be a classic battle of wits with a Scanners brain explosion?

Love the Spacers and the hive stuff. As always, however, I’m drawn right back to wanting to know most WTF will happen with Empire. Demerzel is some cold robot, and that um, inspection sure was invasive as all fuckall. Queen gonna go Cersei on everybody after figuring out how to decant all backups and drive Day mad. Seems that he’s on the precipice already.

I did miss Dusk this past episode. Perhaps he’ll fill in a more prominent scene for the finale. Are we already there yet? Damn I hope not. I can’t get enough of this show.

Ironically, the Mentalics arc seems very stupid thus far so here’s to hoping that they pick that up and push the plot forward those 150 years as promised or at least lurch that direction before S3.

What will Empire’s commanders and the Spacer hive do? Stay the loyal course or jump ship jump ships jumped shit instead of nuking Terminus or nuke terminus then jump ships from jump ships to whisper ships to that big Deathstar from S1 or all get jump shit canned in the process of ship jumping?

Will meat version of Harry be manifested again or possibly resurrected? I’m guessing no—his purpose in getting Fv2 established has been served, Salvor is gonna be some squad leader type Mentallic but Harry Digitalis will most certainly be making further appearances once they crack the code in setting up the new Fv2 colony proper and all militant like and are too damn stupid to take action without a mentor after the battle of wits.

Did I mention that I’m absolutely hooked on the Empire intrigue? Dawn getting twiddled for sperm is a nice move. What a tool—he’s such a douche in every Dawn incarnation thus far, hah!

 

[dmsilev]

I think we're about halfway through the season. (checks) Yes, five episodes aired, five more to go.

OK, so overall impressions of the story arcs since we're halfway through: Not really liking the Mentalics arc. Though if murderer-in-chief turns out to actually BE the Mule, all will be forgiven. OK, most will be forgiven. Bel Riose is definitely an interesting character, and the show's portrayal of his situation actually holds close to Asimov's writing. Spoiler for how that ends up: Riose is arrested and presumed executed, because a too-successful general is a threat to the Emperor's rule.

Hober Mallow himself isn't all that interesting, but the exposure (via his storyline) we get of the Spacer society is pretty nifty. Though "genetic mutants forced to serve because of the doled-out supply of magic-substance-they-need" evokes a lot of other SF. Especially since the mutation lets them navigate through hyperspace. The Spice Must Flow!

The Emperor(s), The Queen, and The Robot is, as with S1, the highlight of the show. Trantor is not a nice place to be, and there are no heroes here. Kind of feel sorry for the "monks" who, as "guests" of Empire, presumably are going to get sucked into the carnage.

 

[GaitherBill]

Demerizel is about to break.

 

[Yagisama]

Yup, next episode is going to be fiery!

 

[dmsilev]

I just want to see Cartoonishly Evil Mentalic Woman get what's coming to her.

Get the feeling that the Clone Dynasty is just about to splinter in a remarkably dramatic fashion.