For some people, music doesn’t connect with any of the brain’s reward circuits

Neuroscientists find people who don't enjoy music, study their brain activity.

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[Jackattak]

I wonder if a little MDMA for these poor souls might spice things up a little. (Breaks out old t-shirt "If you don't like techno you haven't taken the right drugs yet.")

 

[michaeltherobot]

I wonder how they are ruling out the hypothesis that music isn't a universally pleasurable sensation. They think there is a failure to communicate with the reward circuit, but why should every person feel a more positive response to a melody than to another sound?

 

[ZippyPeanut]

I wonder if a little MDMA for these poor souls might spice things up a little. (Breaks out old t-shirt "If you don't like techno you haven't taken the right drugs yet.")

Actually, that's an interesting idea. I wonder if fat dose of MDMA or LSD would open things up for them.

I know that my appreciation for music intensifies a thousand-fold when I'm tripping. All music (except Def Leppard) becomes ecstatic.

But I think the problem with this study was that they played Trout Mask Replica as the music samples. They probably should have played something else.

 

[Old_Fogie_Late_Bloomer]

I wonder how they are ruling out the hypothesis that music isn't a universally pleasurable sensation. They think there is a failure to communicate with the reward circuit, but why should every person feel a more positive response to a melody than to another sound?

I mean, obviously music isn't a universally-pleasurable sensation, since they found 15 people who didn't respond to it. In people with a typical connection between the reward and auditory processing centers of the brain, it appears that deriving pleasure from music is the norm.

I'm sure that there are people who have learned to find music displeasurable; most people who "love music" have some music that they don't love, after all. But (in my experience, at least) it appears that most people find at least some kind of music pleasurable.

 

[Zoc]

I wonder if a little MDMA for these poor souls might spice things up a little. (Breaks out old t-shirt "If you don't like techno you haven't taken the right drugs yet.")

Why would it? I’m not a huge fan of music in general (I do like a little of certain things once in a while, but not often), so why would drugs make any difference? I hate okra. Will I like okra if I take drugs, too?

Overall, this study seems to really weirdly pathologize what amounts to a question of personal taste. If someone exposed to a stimulus measurably responds to it but their pleasure centres don’t light up, the logical conclusion is that they don’t like it, not that there’s something wrong with their brain.

 

[Missing Minute]

I rely on music so heavily that one of the fates I fear most is no longer being able to enjoy it.

 

[Frodo Douchebaggins]

Why would it? I’m not a huge fan of music in general (I do like a little of certain things once in a while, but not often), so why would drugs make any difference? I hate okra. Will I like okra if I take drugs, too?

Overall, this study seems to really weirdly pathologize what amounts to a question of personal taste. If someone exposed to a stimulus measurably responds to it but their pleasure centres don’t light up, the logical conclusion is that they don’t like it, not that there’s something wrong with their brain.

yeah I don't dislike music, and in fact enjoy some music quite a bit (mostly film scores, tbh), but I can sit in a room with no music playing while I work for hours and it won't occur to me to put music on.

But I have a lot of friends who are like "I would literally rather die than lose my sense of hearing because I could not survive without music" which makes no sense to me because I just can't identify with it.

Nothing wrong with either position, it's just different.

 

[TekaroBB]

Today I learned I am not lazy, I just don't have brain connectivity to reward exercise. /j

I do wonder if the people who do not enjoy eating tasty food have a similar deal?

 

[2Curious]

"Why can't these people enjoy music?" the question could be "Why are most people so susceptible to musical reward that they'll pay premium prices to have their emotions manipulated by organized sound?"

 

[Fatesrider]

Actually, that's an interesting idea. I wonder if fat dose of MDMA or LSD would open things up for them.

I know that my appreciation for music intensifies a thousand-fold when I'm tripping. All music (except Def Leppard) becomes ecstatic.

But I think the problem with this study was that they played Trout Mask Replica as the music samples. They probably should have played something else.

Having had multiple head injuries and being very interested in the whole concept of consciousness, I've spent a lot of time reading up on the physiology of brain. What the "common person" knows about the brain is mostly entirely wrong, but it serves as a basic IDEA of what the brain does and some of how it does it.

Unlike any other organ in the human body, the brain of an individual is HIGHLY unique to that individual. If one thinks of fingerprints, it's a close(ish) analogy, since they share similar features. But after that things go sideways from the moment of the first brain activity. Based on identical twin studies, there are some things very set in the brain genetically. Based on dissimilar experiences, though, their brains become very different. It's a very plastic organ, that's physically and physiologically affected by the simple act of thinking, which can also impact the stability or psychology of the brain and the individual's subjective experience with reality.

My pet theory is this is an evolutionary adaptation to living in tribes, which, unlike herds, had entirely different survival strategies, largely because of environmental challenges faced, such as the differences between living in a desert, or the arctic (as an extreme case). Adapting to each environment is a survival necessity that, obviously, influenced our evolution and racial diversification. But those also had impacts on the brains of those societies, as well as individuals within them.

With the brain being as adaptive as it is, there's room for "error" in how it adapts, how the genetics express and other such influences. So this kind of thing - people getting nothing from music - isn't a surprise at all. What's more, it's very unlikely that drugs or chemicals will change that, since it's like a genetic expression, rather than a chemical one.

This supports that expectation:

This disconnection, Pallarés thinks, may involve a neural mechanism similar to that involved in many other conditions that make people unable to enjoy things like food, sex, or social interactions. But beyond that, we don’t know a lot.

With something as plastic as the human brain, you're going to find subsets of people who share some unusual traits (such as not enjoying music) simply from the volume of people out there.

Once the nature vs. nurture question is settled, the team wants to see if the mechanism generalizes to other, similar conditions. “We want to see if a similar disconnection causes other disorders which are also very specific to certain stimuli. Then we’ll have to go and see if we can revert that,” Pallarés says.

If it's a DNA thing, which I'd say is likely, since it seems to be a physical issue, that would be nature, and I'd expect only gene therapy, assuming those impacted want it, or scientists can make it, would "fix" it.

So all that to say, that chemicals aren't going to work. Based on a lot of things that have to do with both the chemical and physical structure of the brain (as much as those are CONSTANTLY changing) not likely to be something a chemical can fix.

 

[Distraction]

Why would it? I’m not a huge fan of music in general (I do like a little of certain things once in a while, but not often), so why would drugs make any difference? I hate okra. Will I like okra if I take drugs, too?

Overall, this study seems to really weirdly pathologize what amounts to a question of personal taste. If someone exposed to a stimulus measurably responds to it but their pleasure centres don’t light up, the logical conclusion is that they don’t like it, not that there’s something wrong with their brain.

I think that analogy is more akin to not liking any food. But it begs the question, if okra were a type of music, what kind would it be?

Edit: I’m going with Creole.

 

[NoDanaOnlyZuul]

Actually, that's an interesting idea. I wonder if fat dose of MDMA or LSD would open things up for them.

Hell, when I was on shrooms once, listening to the rhythmic cacophony of the dishwasher was wholly engrossing.

 

[Robin-3]

Once the nature vs. nurture question is settled, the team wants to see if the mechanism generalizes to other, similar conditions. “We want to see if a similar disconnection causes other disorders which are also very specific to certain stimuli. Then we’ll have to go and see if we can revert that,” Pallarés says.

It bugs me that the baseline assumption here seems to be "almost everyone likes music, so there must be something wrong with people who don't like it." Why not "almost everyone likes music, so it's interesting to explore why some people don't"?

It's like so many other things about people: while there's a lot of widely-shared human experiences, there's also a huge amount of individual variance. There are people who like the sensation of being tickled, and people who can't stand it. There are people who don't like sweets, people who don't like babies, people who don't like sex. I'm not talking about anyone who's responding to trauma, but just people who get no pleasure from (whatever), even in cases where (whatever) is widely appreciated across times and cultures.

I had a friend in school who didn't like music. I grew up in a very musical family, so I was kind of puzzled by this... "you don't like any kind of music at all?" He had one song he liked, but that was because it was associated with fond memories, not because of the music itself. Music just didn't do much for him. It didn't bother him at all, but he didn't typically tell people because their response (either to argue with him or to suggest something was wrong with him) did bother him.

 

[Dachannien]

All music (except Def Leppard) becomes ecstatic.

Hyperspecific musical anhedonia

 

[sgtaylor50]

When I was alone, I couldn’t help but listen to music all of the time. I’ve been married for 10 years now and I’ve been finding I have to listen a lot to be able to help when needed and be quiet in my soul to do that. I’ve been listening to music a lot less. It doesn’t help that streaming music costs so much a month. It’s almost out of my budget.

 

[graylshaped]

That this is a thing for some people makes me sad.

 

[Frodo Douchebaggins]

It bugs me that the baseline assumption here seems to be "almost everyone likes music, so there must be something wrong with people who don't like it." Why not "almost everyone likes music, so it's interesting to explore why some people don't"?

It's like so many other things about people: while there's a lot of widely-shared human experiences, there's also a huge amount of individual variance. There are people who like the sensation of being tickled, and people who can't stand it. There are people who don't like sweets, people who don't like babies, people who don't like sex. I'm not talking about anyone who's responding to trauma, but just people who get no pleasure from (whatever), even in cases where (whatever) is widely appreciated across times and cultures.

I had a friend in school who didn't like music. I grew up in a very musical family, so I was kind of puzzled by this... "you don't like any kind of music at all?" He had one song he liked, but that was because it was associated with fond memories, not because of the music itself. Music just didn't do much for him. It didn't bother him at all, but he didn't typically tell people because their response (either to argue with him or to suggest something was wrong with him) did bother him.

Kinda similar in some ways: As a non-drinker (not an alcoholic in recovery or anything, I simply don't drink and never have), the amount of times I've had people be like "omg you'd be so fun though, you should try it with me some time" and inside I'm just like "what the fuck, why would your reaction be to try and change my mind on this?"

 

[Kiru]

Actually, that's an interesting idea. I wonder if fat dose of MDMA or LSD would open things up for them.

I know that my appreciation for music intensifies a thousand-fold when I'm tripping. All music (except Def Leppard) becomes ecstatic.

But I think the problem with this study was that they played Trout Mask Replica as the music samples. They probably should have played something else.

I hear you on on Def Leppard harshing your mellow, but I remember hearing Tom Waits' Swordfishtrombones in a friends' dorm room while dosed and noping the hell out of there PDQ. The CD cover didn't help at the time, lol.

 

[Slipkid]

Hyperspecific musical anhedonia

Actually, that's an interesting idea. I wonder if fat dose of MDMA or LSD would open things up for them.

I know that my appreciation for music intensifies a thousand-fold when I'm tripping. All music (except Def Leppard) becomes ecstatic.

But I think the problem with this study was that they played Trout Mask Replica as the music samples. They probably should have played something else.

Have you tried pouring some sugar on yourself?

 

[sarusa]

But then some of those people, like Gene Simmons, reroute that through the money reward circuits. Music -> $$$ -> dopamine!

 

[piyh]

It's great to see put into words what I've felt for most of my life. I didn't care about music, didn't listen to it, know nothing about it, never connected to it despite having plenty of exposure. This adds a lot of retrospective insight about past interactions with other people.

Now, music is a tool to me to supplement noise cancellation in drowning out background noise.

 

[Frodo Douchebaggins]

It goes to show how well designed we are that everything has to be just so in order for us not only to hear music but to enjoy it.

On the other hand, the mechanism for keeping shit out of our eyes, the eyelash, sometimes falls out and goes into our eye. I'm not sure I buy this "well-designed" theory.

 

[Jackattak]

Why would it? I’m not a huge fan of music in general (I do like a little of certain things once in a while, but not often), so why would drugs make any difference? I hate okra. Will I like okra if I take drugs, too?

Overall, this study seems to really weirdly pathologize what amounts to a question of personal taste. If someone exposed to a stimulus measurably responds to it but their pleasure centres don’t light up, the logical conclusion is that they don’t like it, not that there’s something wrong with their brain.

Well MDMA specifically makes you feel things stronger. So in the case of the folks who truly don't like music, they would "don't like it" harder, I imagine.

In the occurrence of an individual who simply doesn't get enjoyment from it (a little different than the above example) I could see it kicking some sort of dopamine response in.

YMMV

Certainly nothing "wrong" with the people in either example. Not what I was trying to imply. You do you, though.

 

[brokkr]

I am unsure of what actual experience 'the reward system' corresponds to in music enjoyment? Being deeply moved by an aria like "Parto, ma tu ben mio"? Feeling at one with the world by Cut Copy's "Lights and Music"? Being madly energized by The Clash?

Are all those experiences all the same as far as 'the reward system' is concerned? That sounds unlikely given how wildly different they, well feel.

 

[Jackattak]

I am unsure of what actual experience 'the reward system' corresponds to in music enjoyment? Being deeply moved by an aria like "Parto, ma tu ben mio"? Feeling at one with the world by Cut Copy's "Lights and Music"? Being madly energized by The Clash?

Are all those experiences all the same as far as 'the reward system' is concerned? That sounds unlikely given how wildly different they, well feel.

Those are all ultimately pleasure center things that are eliciting a dopamine response, which is how your "reward system"...well...rewards you.

 

[KingKrayola]

I find this stuff really interesting. I was talking to my mentee on a design industry scheme last night about how one would assume that people working in industrial design would be really good at visualising stuff, but a surprising number of successful designers struggle, but we're only learning now that folks are talking about how differently they experience the world.

(They were not struggling to see stuff, but maybe their bosses are)

I never thought about it until now but I always find it surprising when friends don't really listen to music. Maybe this is quite widespread?

 

[ecf]

My Dad loved music. He took me to cheap concerts time and time again for his favorite acts. I ended up loving music, too, even if not entirely in the way Dad envisioned. If I stop listening to recorded music, the melodies will repeat themselves inside my head, over and over.

My Mom, on the other hand, has always said she doesn't hear music. I believe her. Totally oblivious to melody. She couldn't carry a song. Never went to the shows Dad took me to. For the decades that I've known her, music just isn't a thing for her at all. It's just not there.

Both had entirely reasonable professional careers. Completely intelligent people. My Dad loved music, my Mom just didn't "hear it" at all. It's just the way it is.

 

[noanoxan]

Have you tried pouring some sugar on yourself?

Seems like a bit of Hysteria IMO

 

[ZippyPeanut]

Have you tried pouring some sugar on yourself?

Oh, you evil bastard.

Just for that, here's this:

Baby shark, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo.
Baby shark, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo.
Baby shark!

 

[Jolyon]

Have you tried pouring some sugar on yourself?

In the name of love science?

 

[FSTargetDrone]

 

[FSTargetDrone]

Seems like a bit of Hysteria IMO

I’d like a Photograph of that.

(Yes, I know)

 

[Dark Jaguar]

I wonder if a little MDMA for these poor souls might spice things up a little. (Breaks out old t-shirt "If you don't like techno you haven't taken the right drugs yet.")

I know you mean well, but the very first reaction to finding out that someone doesn't enjoy something you previously considered universal probably shouldn't be to suggest they need "fixing" in some way.

I say that as someone who's never found any sexual enjoyment and honestly find it kind of repulsive, and have heard over and over and over again that there's probably some hormone imbalance and I can "see a doctor to fix that".

I think most likely these people find plenty of enjoyment in life without the need for music, and while I personally love music and don't want to live one without it, I don't feel like these people are "missing out" any more than someone blind from birth is "missing out" on art.

Don't worry, I'm not judging you or anything, it's just a common attitude and as your's was the very first post I thought it'd make a good example.

 

[ReaderBot]

Why would it? I’m not a huge fan of music in general (I do like a little of certain things once in a while, but not often), so why would drugs make any difference? I hate okra. Will I like okra if I take drugs, too?

Overall, this study seems to really weirdly pathologize what amounts to a question of personal taste. If someone exposed to a stimulus measurably responds to it but their pleasure centres don’t light up, the logical conclusion is that they don’t like it, not that there’s something wrong with their brain.

Because many drugs, including alcohol and nicotine, can inherently increase the pleasure of already pleasurable things. This is known.

So no, if you hate okra, drugs won't make you like it. But if you enjoy okra, drugs can make it even more enjoyable.

 

[GrimPloughman]

On the other hand, the mechanism for keeping shit out of our eyes, the eyelash, sometimes falls out and goes into our eye. I'm not sure I buy this "well-designed" theory.

There is the scientificamerican article about the evolution of hiccup comparing the human body to an 100 year old building renovated multiple times.

When we opened the walls to look at the plumbing, wiring and other mechanicals, we saw a tangle that made no apparent sense; cables, wires and pipes took bizarre loops and turns throughout the building. Nobody in their right mind would have designed my building to conform to the snarled mess we saw when the wall was removed. Constructed in 1896, the utilities reflect an old design that has been jury-rigged for each renovation done over previous decades.

The Evolutionary Origins of Hiccups and Hernias

 

[Jackattak]

I know you mean well, but the very first reaction to finding out that someone doesn't enjoy something you previously considered universal probably shouldn't be to suggest they need "fixing" in some way.

I say that as someone who's never found any sexual enjoyment and honestly find it kind of repulsive, and have heard over and over and over again that there's probably some hormone imbalance and I can "see a doctor to fix that".

I think most likely these people find plenty of enjoyment in life without the need for music, and while I personally love music and don't want to live one without it, I don't feel like these people are "missing out" any more than someone blind from birth is "missing out" on art.

Don't worry, I'm not judging you or anything, it's just a common attitude and as your's was the very first post I thought it'd make a good example.

It was certainly tongue in cheek and I didn’t mean to actually imply anything wrong with these folks. My little girl has a friend who is hypo-sensitive and basically feels nothing, ever. No emotions. I get it.

Apologies to anyone I may have offended.

ETA: I think one could also note the responses in the comments of some of these folks. They are not some rare occurrence.

I’ve just never met anyone like them because I’m heavily involved in the music scene.

 

[EnPeaSea]

"Why can't these people enjoy music?" the question could be "Why are most people so susceptible to musical reward that they'll pay premium prices to have their emotions manipulated by organized sound?"

"Why are most people so susceptible to musical reward that they'll pay premium prices use a receiver of electro-magnetic spectrum signals that comes equipped in vehicles to have their emotions manipulated by organized sound for free?"