Flock haters cross political divides to remove error-prone cameras

Lawmakers' calls for Flock probe may help kill local contracts, expert says.

See full article...

 

[Super King]

 

[Spaceman Spliff]

In the video, Milliman warned Elser, “You know we have cameras in that jurisdiction and you can’t get a breath of fresh air, in or out of that place, without us knowing, correct?”

After Elser adamantly denied taking the package, Milliman then claimed that the theft victim provided footage that supposedly showed Elser in the act. However, he refused to show Elser that footage because she would not admit her guilt.

“If you’re going to deny it, I’m not going to give you any courtesy,” Milliman said. “If you’re going to lie to me, I’m not going to give you any courtesy.”

While I’m not an ACAB person, JFC, some of them make it really hard not to be. Thankfully this person is fighting fire with fire and has her video of the interaction with the cop. I hope she sues and gets $$$

 

[CatNamedHugs]

Mass surveillance combined with dumb-as-dogshit bottom-of-their-class cops wanting to do nothing but take the easy way out is (yet another) path on our road to ruination.

 

[first_citazen]

Notice it always hits the poorest of communities? Seems to keep piling up on the ones already drowning

 

[Rick C.]

The link to the template of how to fight Flock in your community isn't working.

 

[ZX7PETE]

Notice it always hits the poorest of communities? Seems to keep piling up on the ones already drowning

Not that I disagree with the sentiment, but this isn't the case in the subject of the story. Financial Planner and Rivian driver doesn't smack of the "poorest of communities."

 

[Allthecheese]

The link to the template of how to fight Flock in your community isn't working.

Yes, the url isn't correct. It's currently linking to "https://livefreeaz.come/" instead of "https://livefreeaz.com/"

 

[Dumb Svengali]

This is an excellent article. Thank you for covering the broad spectrum of opposition to these - and how different groups are taking different paths and messages and local lobbying strategies to win. Thats how local advocacy actually works & wins. When facing fused state + corporate power, we can't afford to be puritanical about a conservative that wants to ban Flock because they don't want their movements surveilled by big government and doesn't care that they are being used to prosecute abortion-seekers. They want to ban the cameras. The abortion seeker will be safer when they are gone, regardless of the motivations of the advocate who helped eliminate them. Sure, the electeds may only be giving lip service to opposing these issues (Hawley, Paul) but they are doing that because they know their base demands it. That's a window. Let us go through that.

 

[Dumb Svengali]

Notice it always hits the poorest of communities? Seems to keep piling up on the ones already drowning

This isn't really true, and it's a window to actually build coalitions with people with political power. Where I live, it's the richest suburbs that have Flock - they are terrified of crime from the city. But they are voluntarily submitting to mass surveillance to protect themselves from a waning crime panic. We can build coalitions if we don't always immediately divide everyone up.

 

[astack]

Thanks for this article! My town has a red light camera system at particular intersections- I had no idea who the contractor was, but I just looked and thankfully it's not this company.

Important edit: this site (deflock.me) purports to show different flock camera locations. It turns out, I do have some near me.

 

[KrookedRooster]

If their campaigns are not called "Get the Flock out of here" someone failed marketing class.

 

[rcduke]

Something to keep in mind is this article only helps fight "public" Flock contracts purchased through cities or counties. Home Depot, at least in my area in Oregon, has Flock cameras posted at the entrance of every driveway of the properties they have stores at. Same thing with a locally owned community credit union.

What can we do to effectively push private companies to stop contracts with Flock? Just abstaining from shopping there won't be good enough.

 

[Mosshops]

Wyden is perpetually makes me proud that he represents my state. That said, I am worried that he is getting up there in age (76) and there doesn't seem to be other senators/reps who are up-to-speed with these types of IT security and privacy issues who will be able to take the mantle once Wyden leaves.

 

[astack]

Something to keep in mind is this article only helps fight "public" Flock contracts purchased through cities or counties. Home Depot, at least in my area in Oregon, has Flock cameras posted at the entrance of every driveway of the properties they have stores at. Same thing with a locally owned community credit union.

What can we do to effectively push private companies to stop contracts with Flock? Just abstaining from shopping there won't be good enough.

That is what I am discovering also. The "deflock.me" website I linked to above shows several of their cameras posted in my area in what looked like privately-owned venues-- shopping centers, Lowe's, etc. It's not great.

 

[floyd42]

It's maddening that the police officer in the video repeatedly says she's not being honest with him to cover for the lies he's telling her. Granted, I shouldn't be surprised.

Makes me wonder who lost the package and what pressure they must have put on the police? Must have been a big wheel in Bow Mar.

 

[NOT_RICK]

What can we do to effectively push private companies to stop contracts with Flock? Just abstaining from shopping there won't be good enough.

You can find a pretty effective solution for that in the saw aisle

 

[jweller13]

Ben Jordan has an excellent and disturbing video about Flock. He even presented to congress about it recently.


View: https://youtu.be/Pp9MwZkHiMQ

 

[RickRoyLeonPrisZhoraRacha]

Something to keep in mind is this article only helps fight "public" Flock contracts purchased through cities or counties. Home Depot, at least in my area in Oregon, has Flock cameras posted at the entrance of every driveway of the properties they have stores at. Same thing with a locally owned community credit union.

What can we do to effectively push private companies to stop contracts with Flock? Just abstaining from shopping there won't be good enough.

Home Depot's answer to this was, well, you can opt-out by not shopping here. The parking lots of all the home depots near me have a Flock camera pointing to you entering and you leaving the lot. And don't forget the cameras at the self-checkout, along with any 'guilt cams' in the tools section that DING DONG as you walk in the aisle and your face has a green frame about the display.

Isn't the CEO of HD a major Trump supporter? Seems HD needs to lose business....

 

[Sajuuk]

A financial planner in her 40s living in a Denver neighborhood, Chrisanna Elser, learned the hard way that cops can’t always be trusted to vet Flock data.

What an amazingly generous comment about the trustworthiness of cops.

 

[J4yDubs]

EFF is encouraged that lawmakers are pushing the FTC to probe Flock’s data handling, even if no investigation follows, Hamid said. “This represents a significant shift—federal policymakers are now directly confronting the fact that Flock’s infrastructure poses genuine risks to people’s privacy and safety,” she suggested.

Considering the current administration is easily bought, you can bet that Flock will be "donating" to some pet project of Trump's and the probe will be closed or cancelled.

A conservative who voted for Donald Trump, Boyce became determined to take the cameras down. She soon realized that many people in her community who opposed Flock were liberal, people she “normally wouldn’t be having conversations with.” But it was worth being “open to having conversations with them,” she said, if it meant ending Flock’s invasive tracking.

I wonder what her opinion would be if/when Trump comes out in support of Flock? I'd love to see the confliction happen.

 

[TenacityOverAptitude]

View attachment 121620

Sure, I will.
I think they are greedy SOBs who don't deserve to make money by making the U.S. less free.
Edit: So, they can take a long walk off a short pier.

Sorry, that's unnecessarily mean spirited. Thing are bad enough in this country.

 

[dzid]

If their campaigns are not called "Get the Flock out of here" someone failed marketing class.

I like "flock off", but there are all manner of possibilities. Flock, Ring - any of these systems that pass data automatically to entit[ies] outside a home/property owner are problematic. Even those that do not, I don't believe contribute much to actual safety.

 

[terrydactyl]

While I’m not an ACAB person, JFC, some of them make it really hard not to be. Thankfully this person is fighting fire with fire and has her video of the interaction with the cop. I hope she sues and gets $$$

What I'd like to see is her or someone like her take it to the mat. Demand a public apology or take it to trial. Reality is most people don't the ability for a long fight and settle for a payout. And that's what police depts bank on so they can sweep it under the rug. Meanwhile, the taxpayer is on the hook for their malfeasance.

 

[sporkinum]

The folks will take their doorbell cam and Rivian cam to court and prove 100% the the cop is a lying sack of . First step of having the cameras removed.

 

[Aurich]

Ben Jordan has an excellent and disturbing video about Flock. He even presented to congress about it recently.


View: https://youtu.be/Pp9MwZkHiMQ

Was coming here to post that if someone hadn't already.

I highly recommend watching, and honestly if people aren't familiar with Benn Jordan he's a deep dark magic nerd who has never seen a rabbit hole he doesn't want to drill into. Big fan.

 

[chaos215bar2]

You can find a pretty effective solution for that in the saw aisle

Or paint. They are solar powered…

 

[msawzall]

A financial planner in her 40s living in a Denver neighborhood, Chrisanna Elser, learned the hard way that cops can’t always be trusted to vet Flock data.

ftfy

 

[chaos215bar2]

Home Depot's answer to this was, well, you can opt-out by not shopping here. The parking lots of all the home depots near me have a Flock camera pointing to you entering and you leaving the lot. And don't forget the cameras at the self-checkout, along with any 'guilt cams' in the tools section that DING DONG as you walk in the aisle and your face has a green frame about the display.

Isn't the CEO of HD a major Trump supporter? Seems HD needs to lose business....

I stopped shopping at Home Depot years ago because of those cameras in the store. I also use Lowes only as a last resort due to the Flock camera they've had right in front of their entrance for years.

The best answer is, support other local businesses that don't do this while you have them and raise public awareness against mass surveillance. This is one area where having a hostile authoritarian wannabe in office actually helps.

The alternative answer is.… well, see above.

 

[sporkinum]

Isn't the CEO of HD a major Trump supporter? Seems HD needs to lose business....

That's why I have been boycotting HD since 2016.

 

[Aurich]

I'm likely to be downvoted to heck for this, but I think this is more complicated than folks want to make out. The privacy violations are a problem, the lack of oversight is a huge problem, and the sloppy police work is a disaster. Those constitute huge arguments against use of the cameras.

But we also live in a time when people "feel" that crime is out of control. (Even in places where the numbers say otherwise.) That feeling is not abstract -- it's led them to vote for terrible "tough on crime" politicians, right up to the chief lawbreaker himself. And while the failure modes of ALPRs are awful, it's hard to avoid the near-weekly "successes" reported on local news and local "police blotter" type newspapers and newsletters. I literally read them every week: Cops arrest wanted drug dealer after hit on license plate camera... Notorious west-side shoplifter arrested after brief chase when camera spots license plate...

Are they frequently catching the FBI's Top-10 most wanted, or solving murder cases? No, probably not. But the little stuff matters to a lot of people, and those people vote.

Being or knowing the victim of a false or malicious arrest due to technology failures is certainly enough to make anyone go militantly anti-camera. But there are also undeniably a pretty large population of people out there who are comforted by them, and the knowledge that if the "bad guys" come into their neighborhood, the cops are gonna get them.

I'm 100% for additional legal barriers, backstops and standards of evidence for the camera data to be used. But a wholesale removal of a tool perceived to be keeping communities safer may backfire in ways people are even less happy with. Perception may be reality here.

Even if I thought your argument had merit, and to be honest I don't, I'm not turning over my privacy to try and make some people who are scared of their own shadows feel better.

The thing is it doesn't make them feel better. It just feeds their paranoia. You're not going to get a better world and better voters through shoveling more fuel into that fire hoping you get more light than heat.

 

[msawzall]

I'm likely to be downvoted to heck for this, but I think this is more complicated than folks want to make out. The privacy violations are a problem, the lack of oversight is a huge problem, and the sloppy police work is a disaster. Those constitute huge arguments against use of the cameras.

But we also live in a time when people "feel" that crime is out of control. (Even in places where the numbers say otherwise.) That feeling is not abstract -- it's led them to vote for terrible "tough on crime" politicians, right up to the chief lawbreaker himself. And while the failure modes of ALPRs are awful, it's hard to avoid the near-weekly "successes" reported on local news and local "police blotter" type newspapers and newsletters. I literally read them every week: Cops arrest wanted drug dealer after hit on license plate camera... Notorious west-side shoplifter arrested after brief chase when camera spots license plate...

Are they frequently catching the FBI's Top-10 most wanted, or solving murder cases? No, probably not. But the little stuff matters to a lot of people, and those people vote.

Being or knowing the victim of a false or malicious arrest due to technology failures is certainly enough to make anyone go militantly anti-camera. But there are also undeniably a pretty large population of people out there who are comforted by them, and the knowledge that if the "bad guys" come into their neighborhood, the cops are gonna get them.

I'm 100% for additional legal barriers, backstops and standards of evidence for the camera data to be used. But a wholesale removal of a tool perceived to be keeping communities safer may backfire in ways people are even less happy with. Perception may be reality here.

tl;dr: These cameras suck and almost never work the way they're supposed to, but a lot of people seem to like them. Let's keep doing the stupid thing!

 

[TheShark]

This isn't really true, and it's a window to actually build coalitions with people with political power. Where I live, it's the richest suburbs that have Flock - they are terrified of crime from the city. But they are voluntarily submitting to mass surveillance to protect themselves from a waning crime panic. We can build coalitions if we don't always immediately divide everyone up.

This. I'm pretty sure keeping track of when "those people" drive into their rich suburb is very much one the main drivers.

 

[thecastle2]

Ben Jordan has an excellent and disturbing video about Flock. He even presented to congress about it recently.


View: https://youtu.be/Pp9MwZkHiMQ

It’s a good video. Inspired me to invest in a gpu to run a local llm

 

[foobacca]

If their campaigns are not called "Get the Flock out of here" someone failed marketing class.

That phrase brings back memories. A friend of mine, when it was time to get going, would always say "let's make like a shepherd". Meaning "let's get the flock out of here".

 

[thecastle2]

This. I'm pretty sure keeping track of when "those people" drive into their rich suburb is very much one the main drivers.

Flock cameras mushroomed here (2024 in se Houston) during the Biden administration. I have no choice , every city in my area has cameras on every entry and exit to the city. My neighborhood HOA has them. I’m constantly survailed, probably with the new flock drones too. Plus my car is selling my information, my cell, my internet, the airport and TSA facial scanners. There is no privacy in an urban area. I understand I have nothing to hide b.s. argument, but the problem is I don’t trust the government and law enforcement to not abuse their power/position. Hell they’re probably putting me on a watch list because of this post.

 

[Sajuuk]

I'm likely to be downvoted to heck for this, but I think this is more complicated than folks want to make out. The privacy violations are a problem, the lack of oversight is a huge problem, and the sloppy police work is a disaster. Those constitute huge arguments against use of the cameras.

Spoiler

But we also live in a time when people "feel" that crime is out of control. (Even in places where the numbers say otherwise.) That feeling is not abstract -- it's led them to vote for terrible "tough on crime" politicians, right up to the chief lawbreaker himself. And while the failure modes of ALPRs are awful, it's hard to avoid the near-weekly "successes" reported on local news and local "police blotter" type newspapers and newsletters. I literally read them every week: Cops arrest wanted drug dealer after hit on license plate camera... Notorious west-side shoplifter arrested after brief chase when camera spots license plate...

Are they frequently catching the FBI's Top-10 most wanted, or solving murder cases? No, probably not. But the little stuff matters to a lot of people, and those people vote.

Being or knowing the victim of a false or malicious arrest due to technology failures is certainly enough to make anyone go militantly anti-camera. But there are also undeniably a pretty large population of people out there who are comforted by them, and the knowledge that if the "bad guys" come into their neighborhood, the cops are gonna get them.

I'm 100% for additional legal barriers, backstops and standards of evidence for the camera data to be used. But a wholesale removal of a tool perceived to be keeping communities safer may backfire in ways people are even less happy with. Perception may be reality here.

The privacy violations are a problem, the lack of oversight is a huge problem, and the sloppy police work is a disaster. [...] And while the failure modes of ALPRs are awful, it's hard to avoid the near-weekly "successes" reported on local news and local "police blotter" type newspapers and newsletters. I literally read them every week: Cops arrest wanted drug dealer after hit on license plate camera... Notorious west-side shoplifter arrested after brief chase when camera spots license plate...

So you acknowledge that police are institutionally untrustworthy agents, and then turn around and just lap up their literal propaganda. Impressive.

 

[J4yDubs]

But we also live in a time when people "feel" that crime is out of control. (Even in places where the numbers say otherwise.) That feeling is not abstract -- it's led them to vote for terrible "tough on crime" politicians, right up to the chief lawbreaker himself. And while the failure modes of ALPRs are awful, it's hard to avoid the near-weekly "successes" reported on local news and local "police blotter" type newspapers and newsletters. I literally read them every week: Cops arrest wanted drug dealer after hit on license plate camera... Notorious west-side shoplifter arrested after brief chase when camera spots license plate...

I'm 100% for additional legal barriers, backstops and standards of evidence for the camera data to be used. But a wholesale removal of a tool perceived to be keeping communities safer may backfire in ways people are even less happy with. Perception may be reality here.

I upvoted you to try to cancel out a knee-jerk down vote because I think you're arguing in good faith, but I don't agree with what you're saying.

Why are you giving more importance to the positive reports than to the negative reports? Your argument seems to be because there are positive reports, the camera should remain. I also don't care about perception. I care about reality.