EVgo gets $1.05B loan to build 7,500 DC fast chargers

EVgo will focus on underserved communities where people can't charge at home.

See full article...

 

[Dr Gitlin]

$140,000 per charger seems excessive.

No, that's how much it costs to deploy a 350 kW charger. This isn't an AC wall box running at 240 V and 50 A, and the cost is more than just the equipment, there's installation, permitting, paying for the site itself...

 

[Dr Gitlin]

Arkansas/Missouri along I-55/I-57 please... it's like a virtual no-man's land for EVs from Memphis to central Illinois. I can easily drive from my home in Texas to my extended family in Illinois, but for the moment it requires a very lengthy 100% charge in West Memphis just so I don't get stranded in the middle of nowhere. Blytheville would be a good place for starters...

Here's Arkansas and Missouri's respective NEVI sites:

https://www.ardot.gov/divisions/loc...electric-vehicle-infrastructure-nevi-program/
https://www.modot.org/nevi

 

[Dr Gitlin]

The correct way long term would be to actually invest (not throw a couple of bucks, relatively speaking) in public transit.

I'm not saying this is a bad thing or that EVs won't be a part of the solution. But so far we (in the US) are dreadful at doing what we need to do- make moving people environmentally sound (ie. building public transit in dense areas so people don't need a car at all.)

The only way that happens is if we start electing politicians who will spend the money to make that happen. Posting about it on Ars won't get us there.

 

[Dr Gitlin]

Most large suburban apartment complexes I've seen have about 1 1/2 spaces per apartment. Sometimes less if a lot of the apartments are small (studios & 1 bedrooms). That doesn't mean they're all free and all have the same amenities. Most have at least 2 tiers: open (no frills, usually no extra charge with the parking permit you get as a resident) and covered (frequently an extra charge in the rent). Covered (usually rudimentary carports) may or may not have any power, and if they do have power, it's limited to 120V for lights with no plugs. Some also have enclosed parking (small garages) for a substantial upcharge, again likely only with a light inside. Recently, though, I've seen a few that do have 120V plugs in the covered and enclosed parking, perhaps not in all spaces though, and often for an additional charge. None have 240V plugs for EV charging, but a fair amount of local and even commute driving can be covered by 120V Level 1 charging so the basic service is useful.

I live in a co-op of 518 units and have looked into how we go about adding charging for at least some residents and the simple answer right now is that there's no way on earth we can afford to electrify even 10 percent of the parking spaces, given how much it will cost to dig the trenches and run power and upgrade the electrical supply and the panel.

 

[OrvGull]

Over 58% of US households have 2 or more vehicles right now. Cherry picking densely populated cities and the high cost of land there doesn't change the reality of the rest of the country. The great majority of the country has surface lots, not underground parking structures.
https://www.fool.com/the-ascent/research/car-ownership-statistics/

Those places aren't the ones repealing parking mandates, so I think you're arguing with a point I didn't make.

Surface lots have a cost too, they spread things out and mean you have to travel further to everything.

 

[EnPeaSea]

I'll put it this way. If Musk decides to fast forward through Hitler's timeline, particularly to the end bit, I'll consider using Tesla's services. If after that bit they greatly improve the quality of their cars, I might consider one.

While he's at Tesla, I wouldn't take a Tesla if you have it to me.

For sure, I will not buy a Tesla until at least 20 years after Musk's demise (natural or self-inflicted) ((frivolity in this aside) 60's Beetle and Bus being the pinacle of VW automobiles) and when I finally purchase an EV with the J3400 connector standard from another company, I will make all attempts to avoid Tesla branded chargers, something made easier by more companies building chargers with the J3400 plug.

The comment I originally responded to stated that they would only buy cars with other connectors because of Musk. You are not that commentor. If you inferred "it's OK to buy Tesla" from my comments, that's on you.

 

[rxc6422]

Does the grant include guards for all the charging stations, so that they can protect them from people cutting off the electric cords to sell the copper?

And, if these are installed in neighborhoods where there are a number of large apartment blocks, does it pay to upgrade the substation that feeds the apartment blocks?

And maybe a windmill or 2 in the area to provide the electricity?

 

[ERIFNOMI]

For sure, I will not buy a Tesla until at least 20 years after Musk's demise (natural or self-inflicted) and when I finally purchase an EV with the J3400 connector standard from another company, I will make all attempts to avoid Tesla branded chargers, something made easier by more companies building chargers with the J3400 plug.

The comment I originally responded to stated that they would only buy cars with other connectors. You are not that commentor. If you inferred "it's OK to buy Tesla" from my comments, that's on you.

I was just playing off the comparison of Musk/Tesla and Hitler/VW. It was mostly a joke about everything being better if Musk were to...go away.

 

[Acidtech]

I'm torn. I want charging networks to expand and allow everyone to have better access. I also don't think the solution to multifamily developments and areas that currently rely on public charging, is to add DCFCs. It's to mandate, and provide funding/assistance in adding L2 charging to private parking lots, and street side parking in these areas. Yes I understand there is funding and work being done in this area.

This feels very much like trying to replicate the gas station model, when we should be moving away from that for BEVs. I don't know, happy to see charging expanding in all ways, just hope we do it the correct way long term.

When the apartment complexes realize they can charge a small premium for per parking spot charging and make money they will.

 

[real mikeb_60]

The Kia might not ever get that cheap but I can see Model 3s going for peanuts in about 5-7 years, since they are already sub-$20k in some cases.

2018 Bolt (which should have had the battery replaced under recall in 2022-23, extending the battery warranty to 2030-31) per KBB:

		Original MSRP	KBB Fair Purchase Price (nat'l average)
	LT Hatchback 4D	$37,495	$13,997

Slightly higher in California, as usual. And with the replaced battery, range extends to 259 miles EPA combined rather than the original 238 miles. Showing only the LT because it's fairly well-equipped (for its time) even in the base model. Premier has more toys and of course costs more.

 

[OrvGull]

When the apartment complexes realize they can charge a small premium for per parking spot charging and make money they will.

Where I live no one competes on amenities, because the market is so tight no one comparison shops. They just grab the first remotely acceptable unit they can find.

 

[raxx7]

Good point, I hadn't thought about that.

This is going to be a real issue for multifamily complexes. I doubt many of them were wired with enough capacity for every residence to have an additional 50A load. I'm not even sure how you'd tie individual chargers to apartments -- most I've lived in didn't have assigned spaces, and the wiring to get each charger connected to the right meter would be a bit of a nightmare.

If the complex doesn't have assigned parking spaces then a possible solution will be to install semi-public L2 chargers in a fraction of the parking spaces, completely decoupled from the housing unit.

As for the load the chargers can be setup to power share among themselves or even with the complex supply.

 

[rxc6422]

Addressing shortcoming in market forces is a very proper use of money.

Or maybe the "shortcoming in market forces" comes from trying to force people to buy something they don't want. There were very few gasoline stations when Henry Ford started to make his cars, but the robust market for them drove lots of people to build those stations, without forcing the government to "address a shortcoming in market forces".

 

[jhesse]

Our current apartment complex has a few $65/mo EV charging (LVL 2) parking spots that charge $.50/kWh... But they're significantly smaller than normal parking spaces (barely fits an M3) and ICED most of the time (despite being pay only spots).

Are there not signs posted with a phone number to a predatory towing company?

 

[some guy in San Diego]

I'm trying to think of a single house in my neighborhood that doesn't have at least two cars. Half of them use their garage for storage or something and leave their cars parked in the driveway, so it's pretty easy to see. At least the ones I drive by regularly all have at least two cars. And if they have kids of driving age, it's more than two.

Ours is probably one of the very few in our neighborhood without two more cars, but that's because we both work from home and my wife's a relatively recent immigrant who got her driver's license less than two years ago and hates driving so the only driving she does is taking our son to daycare.

And even given all that, we'll probably still get a second car next year after our kid starts kindergarten and we're not paying for daycare anymore.

 

[OldMan8783]

Are there not signs posted with a phone number to a predatory towing company?

It does not, and the "towing company" the complex recommends we call - last I heard someone waited several hours and they never showed up. I think that's why no one cares. It is a gated community so that probably doesn't help either.

 

[ShortOrder]

Those places aren't the ones repealing parking mandates, so I think you're arguing with a point I didn't make.

Surface lots have a cost too, they spread things out and mean you have to travel further to everything.

Fair enough for places repealing parking mandates. But underserved is just as likely small town bumfuck that doesn't have any public chargers at all.

 

[EnPeaSea]

I was just playing off the comparison of Musk/Tesla and Hitler/VW. It was mostly a joke about everything being better if Musk were to...go away.

Ope! That's what that woosh sound was for.

 

[evan_s]

I'm trying to think of a single house in my neighborhood that doesn't have at least two cars. Half of them use their garage for storage or something and leave their cars parked in the driveway, so it's pretty easy to see. At least the ones I drive by regularly all have at least two cars. And if they have kids of driving age, it's more than two.

Yeah. I expect the suburbs are a lot higher on car ownership than urban areas. Generally speaking, the costs are higher and the need is lower in urban areas. My little cul-de-sac has 10 houses has more than 20 cars most days in spite of a couple houses only having 1 car. They are out numbered by the houses with 3 or more cars.

 

[bdtice1]

How many EV's are in very low income areas? EV's are not cheap! I see more of a need in areas with a lot of apartments. Also, to build them is one thing, how about keep them working!?! No use to build them, but not maintain them!

 

[Tagbert]

Tell us you didn't read the article without saying you didn't read the article.

But at least they got first post credit

 

[humjaba]

This is sorely needed. I live in southern California - possibly the friendliest place to own an EV - but every single DCFC in Orange County has a line around the block because they built four fucking dispensers and now every new car comes with two years of free charging.

 

[NetMage]

EVgo doesn’t know how to run chargers based on all the ones I’ve seen with their name on it. I expect them to burn this money irresponsibly and end up with non functioning equipment. This feels like a money grab by one of the green energy companies that’s probably in it to line the pockets of its investors with little regard to wether their stations actually function.

It is a loan, they would have to pay the money back.

 

[spartan56]

The only way that happens is if we start electing politicians who will spend the money to make that happen. Posting about it on Ars won't get us there.

Most certainly. I tell people I know and try to convince them and I vote in every single election.

So don't think I'm not doing that either. But sadly, look at what we're stuck with.

 

[greendave]

No, that's how much it costs to deploy a 350 kW charger. This isn't an AC wall box running at 240 V and 50 A, and the cost is more than just the equipment, there's installation, permitting, paying for the site itself...

I think the cost of DCFC units would make for an interesting (and illuminating) article.

Understanding the breakdown between equipment, site costs, permitting/planning and physical installation would be illuminating. Also to compare with other places where EV expansion seems to be going much more quickly (and smoothly).

 

[noogie600]

Yup, that's me. I'll have an EV the second I can afford one, but I'm in the "$5000 and under" camp (I'm in Canada, so that's roughly equivalent to your $3K beater).

I was in retail when VCRs dropped down to about $399 CAD, and suddenly we couldn't keep them on the shelves. Same thing when cellular phones dropped to $399 as a starting point (they were car phones then, but the point holds). As soon as somebody pushes the costs down enough for entry-level buyers to own an EV (and battery tech is improving rapidly), sales numbers will explode. The arrival of affordable used EVs in volume will follow shortly thereafter.

If you want cheap new EVs, then they will either come from China or you you will be waiting a long time (probably the latter with North American trade barriers).
MG has just dropped the price of the MG4 (comparable to a Honda Civic in size) to $30 000 AUD (about $20 500 USD). The Chinese makers have been leading the charge in cheap EVs.
https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/mg-4-becomes-australias-cheapest-ev-with-circa-10k-price-cut
On the subject of the article - EV charging, let's hope the fad from there, where people like singing karaoke while waiting for their car to charge (which is why karaoke microphones are a standard feature with an EV there) doesn't catch on
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2021-11-12/chinese-evs-win-karaoke-fans-video

 

[LDA 6502]

The Kia might not ever get that cheap but I can see Model 3s going for peanuts in about 5-7 years, since they are already sub-$20k in some cases.

I expect that popular EVs that were relatively inexpensive are going to hit a price floor because of people buying them up to use as donor cars for EV conversions. As mentioned above, the Leaf is a popular donor car, as is the Model 3, and there is a fair bit of kit on the market to support those projects.

 

[DarthSlack]

Or maybe the "shortcoming in market forces" comes from trying to force people to buy something they don't want. There were very few gasoline stations when Henry Ford started to make his cars, but the robust market for them drove lots of people to build those stations, without forcing the government to "address a shortcoming in market forces".

What are you talking about, EVs are selling fine for a product still in its early stages. And, unlike when Ford started, we no longer have the luxury of time to allow market forces to work. Unless you think events like Helene are supposed to be normal.

You want to see a bad use of tax dollars, here's one. The US subsidizing Constellation energy to restart the Three Mile Island nuclear plant so that they can sell electricity to Microsoft for AI. $1.6 Billion. For two extremely rich companies who could easily afford the cost. At least society gets something for investing in charging networks.

 

[ktmglen]

I think the cost of DCFC units would make for an interesting (and illuminating) article.

Understanding the breakdown between equipment, site costs, permitting/planning and physical installation would be illuminating. Also to compare with other places where EV expansion seems to be going much more quickly (and smoothly).

Operating and maintenance costs too.

 

[ktmglen]

I don't have any inside information but more than one Fast DC charging station has a local battery installed likely to reduce peak demand charges. That would sort of indicate they are not exempt and peak demand charges are a significant part of the cost structure passed onto consumers.

Fast DC is going to be expensive relatively speaking. It likely will always be expensive. Expensive hardware & expensive power. Ideally as many people as possible charge daily using lower power L2 chargers. Ideally those are programmed to charge overnight when demand and rates are the lowest.

I found a freely-available paper called "Demand Charges & Electric Vehicle Fast-Charging: An Intermountain West Assessment" from October 2021. It goes through a bunch of scenarios and applies demand charge pricing to each to see where each scenario breaks even / becomes profitable. They also go through concessions that some utilities have made to encourage the construction of DC fast chargers. Definitely interesting.

https://www.westernenergyboard.org/...st-charging-an-intermountain-west-assessment/

 

[J Carr]

With the company receiving $140K per charger, should they be discounted for the taxpayers to use afterwards?

Anyone else think $140,000 per charger is a bit steep?

$140K a pop seems steep, especially if you are building them in bulk.

 

[Edward Francis]

It is going to be hectic for a while. We ran into an interesting challenge at a new V4 Supercharger site. It appears it was modified to welcome vehicles with charge points other than Tesla's standard left-rear vehicle location. We found the charge stands to be extremely close together (Guessing a Hummer would not fit) and being out from curb will require Tesla owners to park about four feet forward, sticking out into the drive path just to be able to access the back doors. Growing pains?

 

[ktmglen]

For anyone doubting the installation cost, google the cost of a 1500 kVa transformer, a 1600 amp service disconnect, and a bunch of 400 amp breakers because that's more or less what's required to connect and supply electricity to 4 250 kW chargers simultaneously. That doesn't include the wire, the pad, the labor, any underground work, the chargers, etc.

I started looking at the supercharger locations in the satellite view on Google Maps. As sleek as the chargers look, there's usually a fenced-off area with a few very larger transformers immediately next to the chargers. 250 kW (or more!) is a lot of power! It's amazing they can move that much energy that quickly.

Edit: Granted that in my hypothetical case, that's spread over 4 chargers at a single location but it's still a lot of money just to connect to the grid.

 

[Dr Gitlin]

I think the cost of DCFC units would make for an interesting (and illuminating) article.

Understanding the breakdown between equipment, site costs, permitting/planning and physical installation would be illuminating. Also to compare with other places where EV expansion seems to be going much more quickly (and smoothly).

I mean I’ve written about how much DC chargers cost quite often.

 

[Rival Vector Plot]

If you own an electric vehicle but can't charge at home, how often / how much time are you spending charging every week?

As there was a delay getting my home charger installed (paid for with a grant), I had to be patient with the installation company. They were booked for seven months. I used free chargers in my area, and took the time to shop the businesses that provided them, as a loyal shopper thankful for the perk. Whole Foods, the movie theater, several mini malls with great food choices, Target, the local community college (watched games) and others.

 

[NetMage]

As there was a delay getting my home charger installed (paid for with a grant), I had to be patient with the installation company. They were booked for seven months. I used free chargers in my area, and took the time to shop the businesses that provided them, as a loyal shopper thankful for the perk.

You didn’t have an outdoor outlet available for L1 charging?

 

[Rival Vector Plot]

You didn’t have an outdoor outlet available for L1 charging?

Yes, I do. When I did charge from home, which was rarely. But as I could get a L2 charge for free (two hours free most locations), while shopping and running needed errands, it took care of the vast majority of my charging needs. Eventually the L2 ChargePoint went in at the house. I still take advantage of the free charging while shopping, t’s a free perk meant to drive in business. It works for both parties.

 

[android_alpaca]

Developers avoid public transport like the plague, except when pseudo-greenwashing their cost cutting measures.

That's not what I've seen. When the local regional rail extended it's line by few miles (which incidentally cost $5B) and put in a new station... Toll Brothers build a 608 unit condo complex across the street. That train station also has 42 L2 chargers at it.

The Florida Brightline rail was private funded in part because they could make money selling the land next to the train station... here's an article that says the exact opposite of your claim

https://commercialobserver.com/2024...ld-along-south-floridas-passenger-rail-lines/

 

[sd70mac]

Why? Every EV manufacturer agreed to Tesla superchargers. Waste of money and hate of Musk

You must have missed the memo, EVGo are among the charging networks (also including Chargepoint, Electrify America and Ionna) that will be building new charging stations with NACS connectors.

 

[real mikeb_60]

As there was a delay getting my home charger installed (paid for with a grant), I had to be patient with the installation company. They were booked for seven months. I used free chargers in my area, and took the time to shop the businesses that provided them, as a loyal shopper thankful for the perk. Whole Foods, the movie theater, several mini malls with great food choices, Target, the local community college (watched games) and others.

So the grant required you to use a particular installer? That seems a little questionable.

In my case, it took about a month's lead time for the electrician to line up the appropriate permits, a couple of days to do the actual work (including a panel upgrade). I had bought the actual EVSE from Amazon (UL listed, dumb charger) which, once the circuit was run, to 10 minutes to mount and connect. I got a tax credit for about 20% of the cost, increasing my refund when filing taxes the following March, and a small (couple hundred$ iirc) separate rebate from the utility. Overall, not too bad a deal, comparable overall to what newer Bolt customers got via the QMerit thing with Chevy.