European politics

[TheColinous]

I didn't find a thread to discuss continent-wide European politics, so maybe I should be the agent of my own desire and create such a thread.

Not every country on the continent is in the European Union, so discussions about non-EU countries is fine too - as long as it has continental scope.

If the moderators so pleases, I'm fine with levities and ponies and herds of unicorns - because life is a bitch, and then you die, and one could need a laugh or two in the middle of that. And god knows there is plenty of guffaws to be had at the expense of the apparatchiks of the European Union (or their national equivalents).

I'll start this off with this non-tariff, non-US-centriec little thing. There's been an on-going tug-of-war between the capitols and Brussels about land management in the EU. The EU wants to force capitols (such as Sweden) to use their land in a certain way. Such as here.

https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/...alth-but-stops-short-of-setting-legal-targets

After nearly two years of negotiation, MEPs and European governments have agreed the text of a new Soil Monitoring Law, requiring governments to put in place robust data collection systems and consider restricting practices that lead to degradation.

The past year has seen widespread protests against EU environmental policy supported by large farming lobbies and conservative lawmakers in Brussels. These have already led to the withdrawal of plans to slash pesticide use as lawmakers sought to limit the direct impact on farmers.

For where I live (Sweden) it's about forest management. Sweden consists to 70% or so of forest, and Stockholm is incensed that Brussels thinks it knows better, but also Sweden has logged and micromanaged the forest so that 90% of what forest exist is monoculture.

 

[arcite]

Many people are saying EU is about to rise up and become an alternative to the China/USA hegemonic battle for the planet. Look at that rush to safety away from the Dollar to the Euro. France and Germany are flexing diplomatic and military muscle. Poor UK is still sucking up to Trump, as is Italy, Hungary....but then there's Spain rolling out the red carpet to China. Some overly excited people are even pondering if Canada could join the EU. So great idea having an EU focused thread. Ah....Make Europe great again!?

 

[xcodemustdie]

Many people are saying EU is about to rise up and become an alternative to the China/USA hegemonic battle for the planet. Look at that rush to safety away from the Dollar to the Euro. France and Germany are flexing diplomatic and military muscle. Poor UK is still sucking up to Trump, as is Italy, Hungary....but then there's Spain rolling out the red carpet to China. Some overly excited people are even pondering if Canada could join the EU. So great idea having an EU focused thread. Ah....Make Europe great again!?

https://www.google.com/finance/quote/USD-EUR?window=YTD
USD down 9.5% so far this year

 

[ramases]

Many people are saying EU is about to rise up and become an alternative to the China/USA hegemonic battle for the planet. Look at that rush to safety away from the Dollar to the Euro. France and Germany are flexing diplomatic and military muscle. Poor UK is still sucking up to Trump, as is Italy, Hungary....but then there's Spain rolling out the red carpet to China. Some overly excited people are even pondering if Canada could join the EU. So great idea having an EU focused thread. Ah....Make Europe great again!?

Italy is doing some interesting bridge building work in North and East Africa. Not all of it goes smoothly, but a lot of it isn't doing badly, either.

 

[TheColinous]

Many people are saying EU is about to rise up and become an alternative to the China/USA hegemonic battle for the planet. Look at that rush to safety away from the Dollar to the Euro. France and Germany are flexing diplomatic and military muscle. Poor UK is still sucking up to Trump, as is Italy, Hungary....but then there's Spain rolling out the red carpet to China. Some overly excited people are even pondering if Canada could join the EU. So great idea having an EU focused thread. Ah....Make Europe great again!?

I think that the main thing is, for Europe, is that contracts will become worthless. If you sign something with Americans, it will be arbitrary if those contracts are honoured. All countries can get shitty leaders, and slump in quality. That happens everywhere. However, if the worth of a contract depends on it not being expedient to ignore the agreement, then all contracts are worthless.

The US has signed a bunch of treaties, and have unilaterally decided that they don't have to abide by them. The US has offered a bunch of Visas to, among others, Europeans and many are now being told that the US doesn't have to abide by those offers. That's the main thing.

 

[sporkman]

The saying goes that the US innovates, China mass produces, and the EU regulates.

The EU has to get better at innovating and production. They could probably start by attracting more of the Silicon Valley workforce. Lots were laid off starting with Elon's purges at twitter. But they also have to provide regulatory predictability and non-hostility.

I generally think that the European concern with climate change leads to bad investments in green projects. Because of how the regulation works, you get idiotic projects like wood pellet power plants because technically under the rules it is renewable energy.

But generally if the EU adopted more growth-friendly policies, and made it easier for Americans who despise Trump to move there and get established with predictable prices for energy and so forth, they could attract the talent needed to surpass the USA.

 

[Neverm1nd]

The saying goes that the US innovates, China mass produces, and the EU regulates.

The EU has to get better at innovating and production. They could probably start by attracting more of the Silicon Valley workforce. Lots were laid off starting with Elon's purges at twitter. But they also have to provide regulatory predictability and non-hostility.

Some people do say that, but they're generally MAGA type americans. Let's look at the manufacturing value add per capita (USD/year, 2023):

China: 2.100
EU: 7.600
US: 6.900

The panic over Chinese manufacturing numbers largely ignores population, and assumes that Europe or the US should have the same total output, each, despite having ~25% of the population. The European countries seem to be doing just fine in manufacturing.

Innovation:

The US is ahead of the major European economies, but not by that much. The UK is just behind, there's 4 points down to Germany, and another 3 to France. There's doubtlessly more to be done in some European countries (Poland scores 37, for example), and it's an area being worked hard on by the EU, but Europe's score isn't exactly dog shit either.

On regulation, the EU passes about 1.200 regulations and directives each year. The number of nee federal US laws and rules passed per year is ~3-4.5k. In the "Ease of Doing Business Index", which generally counts laws and regulations, the US, China, and all European countries except Cyprus, Romania, Italy, Bulgaria, Ukraine, Greece, and Luxembourg score as "Very Easy", and the rest as "Easy", and Denmark, an EU country, scores higher than the US, indicating that EU rules are not really the problem.

In summary, the EU has the most productive manufacturing industry in the world, per capita, is doing well in innovation, only slightly behind the US, and the same is true about regulations and ease of doing business.

What the EU really needs to be doing to increase economic growth is to create capital markets for investments and joint borrowing (which means more regulations), have a more coordinated industrial policy (even more regulations), and lose the veto in the remaining policy areas. Most of that is in the Draghi report, and is actively being worked on. Less regulations is a really shitty idea, because it means less coordination and makes it more difficult to do business in the EU, with rules and conditions varying more across countries.

I generally think that the European concern with climate change leads to bad investments in green projects. Because of how the regulation works, you get idiotic projects like wood pellet power plants because technically under the rules it is renewable energy.

But generally if the EU adopted more growth-friendly policies, and made it easier for Americans who despise Trump to move there and get established with predictable prices for energy and so forth, they could attract the talent needed to surpass the USA.

Wood pellet energy production has the potential to be reasonably good, and is in some places, like Scandinavia, which has responsible forestry legislations, uses locally produced pellets, and where the forestry operations themselves are reasonably "green". Sure, if you do clear-fell forestry in North Carolina with forestry machines burning rubber tires and puppies, and then ship it to another continent for burning, it sucks. That's not a wood pellet technology problem though, it's a lack of regulations problem.

 

[Zoc]

Some overly excited people are even pondering if Canada could join the EU.

Geographically and politically that doesn't make sense, of course, but I'd really like to see Canada move toward some kind of official partnership with the EU. As a Canadian, I really envy the EU's tighter standards on things like food safety and digital privacy, and some kind of system for making it easier for us to move to and work in each other's territories would be wonderful, even if totally free movement isn't practical.
There was an editorial in a major Canadian newspaper yesterday calling for Canada to drop tariffs and duties on online purchases made from Europe for items under $800. I think that would be a really great first step towards a closer relationship.

 

[TheColinous]

The Acquis Communitaire rarely comes up in such discussions about Canada joining the EU. I think that once the requirements become more known, the interest in Canada would drop quite a bit. It's a nice out-there kind of day dream, but dreary reality is something quite different.

 

[karolus]

The Acquis Communitaire rarely comes up in such discussions about Canada joining the EU. I think that once the requirements become more known, the interest in Canada would drop quite a bit. It's a nice out-there kind of day dream, but dreary reality is something quite different.

Simply based on the name, it would seem a bit odd to have a nation in North America join the European Union. It's probably a given that there will be tighter relations between Canada and the EU, though.

 

[TheColinous]

Simply based on the name, it would seem a bit odd to have a nation in North America join the European Union. It's probably a given that there will be tighter relations between Canada and the EU, though.

That's not so strange. Bits of North and South America, as well as the Caribbean and the Pacific, are already fully in the European Union. I think that's the least pressing obstacle.

 

[karolus]

That's not so strange. Bits of North and South America, as well as the Caribbean and the Pacific, are already fully in the European Union. I think that's the least pressing obstacle.

If you’re referring to European possessions such as French Guyana, that’s an entirely different matter than a sovereign state.

 

[sporkman]

Some people do say that, but they're generally MAGA type americans. Let's look at the manufacturing value add per capita (USD/year, 2023):

China: 2.100
EU: 7.600
US: 6.900

The panic over Chinese manufacturing numbers largely ignores population, and assumes that Europe or the US should have the same total output, each, despite having ~25% of the population. The European countries seem to be doing just fine in manufacturing.

Innovation:

View attachment 107452

The US is ahead of the major European economies, but not by that much. The UK is just behind, there's 4 points down to Germany, and another 3 to France. There's doubtlessly more to be done in some European countries (Poland scores 37, for example), and it's an area being worked hard on by the EU, but Europe's score isn't exactly dog shit either.

On regulation, the EU passes about 1.200 regulations and directives each year. The number of nee federal US laws and rules passed per year is ~3-4.5k. In the "Ease of Doing Business Index", which generally counts laws and regulations, the US, China, and all European countries except Cyprus, Romania, Italy, Bulgaria, Ukraine, Greece, and Luxembourg score as "Very Easy", and the rest as "Easy", and Denmark, an EU country, scores higher than the US, indicating that EU rules are not really the problem.

In summary, the EU has the most productive manufacturing industry in the world, per capita, is doing well in innovation, only slightly behind the US, and the same is true about regulations and ease of doing business.

What the EU really needs to be doing to increase economic growth is to create capital markets for investments and joint borrowing (which means more regulations), have a more coordinated industrial policy (even more regulations), and lose the veto in the remaining policy areas. Most of that is in the Draghi report, and is actively being worked on. Less regulations is a really shitty idea, because it means less coordination and makes it more difficult to do business in the EU, with rules and conditions varying more across countries.


Wood pellet energy production has the potential to be reasonably good, and is in some places, like Scandinavia, which has responsible forestry legislations, uses locally produced pellets, and where the forestry operations themselves are reasonably "green". Sure, if you do clear-fell forestry in North Carolina with forestry machines burning rubber tires and puppies, and then ship it to another continent for burning, it sucks. That's not a wood pellet technology problem though, it's a lack of regulations problem.

Or CNBC Americans...

Well, I will be researching more about EU investments. The reputation is of Europe being kind of overbearing on regulations, and the fact that Apple grew up in the USA, and not Europe is evidence of this.

Because pellet production requires significant processing, because it is less energy dense requiring more transportation, and because it burns at a lower temperature, for every KWH of energy that is produced wood pellets are something like 35-75% more polluting of CO2 than coal. Germany has an oversupply of solar power despite the fact that it isn't really the best location for solar energy.

 

[Neverm1nd]

Or CNBC Americans...

Well, I will be researching more about EU investments. The reputation is of Europe being kind of overbearing on regulations, and the fact that Apple grew up in the USA, and not Europe is evidence of this.

Because pellet production requires significant processing, because it is less energy dense requiring more transportation, and because it burns at a lower temperature, for every KWH of energy that is produced wood pellets are something like 35-75% more polluting of CO2 than coal. Germany has an oversupply of solar power despite the fact that it isn't really the best location for solar energy.

As an example, Swedish pellets emissions are 6 grams from production and 13 grams from transport per kWh. Coal is 850 grams from burning the coal alone. It's not even close.

On investments and access to risk capital, it's a major hurdle. It doesn't really matter if you have a great innovative idea unless you can get the money to turn it into a company. The US offers much better access to capital than the EU, and that's a problem which needs to be addressed for the EU to grow it's economy. On the plus side, there might be investors sceptical of the US and not really wanting to put their money in the stock market right now...

 

[CPX]

Many people are saying EU is about to rise up and become an alternative to the China/USA hegemonic battle for the planet. Look at that rush to safety away from the Dollar to the Euro. France and Germany are flexing diplomatic and military muscle. Poor UK is still sucking up to Trump, as is Italy, Hungary....but then there's Spain rolling out the red carpet to China. Some overly excited people are even pondering if Canada could join the EU. So great idea having an EU focused thread. Ah....Make Europe great again!?

A credible alternative to US or Chinese hegemony likely requires a more unified European identity first to mitigate a lot of the issues you pointed out. It's possible and the EU is certainly an appropriate venue, but then this same conversation came up with the first Trump administration and Brexit as well. It's easy to point at the recent moves as big strides toward that end. But this concept requires a marathon rather than a sprint. It will need to continue through 2029 and into whatever follows the Trump administration.

 

[karolus]

A credible alternative to US or Chinese hegemony likely requires a more unified European identity first to mitigate a lot of the issues you pointed out. It's possible and the EU is certainly an appropriate venue, but then this same conversation came up with the first Trump administration and Brexit as well. It's easy to point at the recent moves as big strides toward that end. But this concept requires a marathon rather than a sprint. It will need to continue through 2029 and into whatever follows the Trump administration.

At this point, it’s the EU’s moment to lose. The US is turning their back on the world, and someone is going to fill the vacuum. Looking at the unmitigated chaos emanating from Washington, it probably wouldn’t require a heavy lift from Brussels. Just more stability, for starters.

 

[CPX]

At this point, it’s the EU’s moment to lose. The US is turning their back on the world, and someone is going to fill the vacuum. Looking at the unmitigated chaos emanating from Washington, it probably wouldn’t require a heavy lift from Brussels. Just more stability, for starters.

I think we might, as a species and planet, do better with regional blocs rather than world hegemons...but you are correct regarding opportunity.

 

[karolus]

It is doubtful that the EU has even the desire to become a hegemon. There were a unique set of circumstances in the post-World War II environment—the last vestiges of that are quickly eroding. In the current climate, it would be challenging to become a hegemon for a number of reasons.

 

[Neverm1nd]

A credible alternative to US or Chinese hegemony likely requires a more unified European identity first to mitigate a lot of the issues you pointed out. It's possible and the EU is certainly an appropriate venue, but then this same conversation came up with the first Trump administration and Brexit as well. It's easy to point at the recent moves as big strides toward that end. But this concept requires a marathon rather than a sprint. It will need to continue through 2029 and into whatever follows the Trump administration.

The EU has had an explicit goal written into it's treaties of an ever closer union since 1957, and it really has come a long way in that time, but it's also a deliberately slow process. It does tend to accelerate it's integration in times of crisis though. The war in Ukraine won't lead to a European joint military, but I believe it will lead to much more integration and coordination in defense and security policy. Trump's erratic policies will probably drive more integration in other areas too, but we may well have to wait another 68 years for those efforts to come to full fruition.

 

[sporkman]

It is doubtful that the EU has even the desire to become a hegemon. There were a unique set of circumstances in the post-World War II environment—the last vestiges of that are quickly eroding. In the current climate, it would be challenging to become a hegemon for a number of reasons.

wwii was over 80 years ago now.

I don’t think Europe can become a hegemon to the same extent as the USA, but it probably can at least attract more investment in the euro currency as an alternative to the dollar.

the problem with the euro in relation to the dollar is that it is a fiscal union but not a political union. That was what the whole issue was about Greece and its debt like ten years ago. This led to anger among the Germans that they were working for so long while other people were lazily spending.

one interesting fact is that Wall Street in the USA has its origins in the civil war. The federal government issued so much debt for that war that Wall Street boomed in handling it and that led to the gilded age twenty, twenty five some years later.

so that’s why I view Germany being willing to spend more on its military as an encouraging sign for Europe. It means there will be more German debt that can be traded and bought on the market.

 

[Tijger]

wwii was over 80 years ago now.

I don’t think Europe can become a hegemon to the same extent as the USA, but it probably can at least attract more investment in the euro currency as an alternative to the dollar.

the problem with the euro in relation to the dollar is that it is a fiscal union but not a political union. That was what the whole issue was about Greece and its debt like ten years ago. This led to anger among the Germans that they were working for so long while other people were lazily spending.

one interesting fact is that Wall Street in the USA has its origins in the civil war. The federal government issued so much debt for that war that Wall Street boomed in handling it and that led to the gilded age twenty, twenty five some years later.

so that’s why I view Germany being willing to spend more on its military as an encouraging sign for Europe. It means there will be more German debt that can be traded and bought on the market.

As a European and a very pro-EU one at that I'd say the last thing that many if not most in Europe want is to be a hegemon of any sort.

 

[derMarc]

I'd say most of us in Western Europe know what colonialism/imperialism looks like from our histories. I don't think we feel the need to repeat any of that. Remember when Germany was called the "reluctant hegemon" a few years back? That's where the reluctant part comes from.

 

[sporkman]

As a European and a very pro-EU one at that I'd say the last thing that many if not most in Europe want is to be a hegemon of any sort.

Well then you’re not the master of your own fate. It means that Donald trump gets to dictate to Ukraine what is going to happen.

it also means that you are subject to the whims and power of the USA.

more European power means more European norms and policies being spread around the world rather than US norms and US policies.

in any case, the USA does have severe fiscal problems which likely won’t be fixed anytime soon until one day it all collapses, but it appears that Europe has a better fiscal balance and has lived more in reality.

 

[karolus]

Why must it be an either-or zero-sum game? Being self-sufficient and empowered doesn’t mean having to be a hegemon. EU member states have learned their lessons from the past, and most aren’t keen on repeating the failures.

 

[CPX]

Well then you’re not the master of your own fate. It means that Donald trump gets to dictate to Ukraine what is going to happen.

it also means that you are subject to the whims and power of the USA.

more European power means more European norms and policies being spread around the world rather than US norms and US policies.

Europe's already reorganizing to address Ukraine more directly without deference to US policy besides "leaving". The momentum for more direct support is building but needs at least a few more months. I think a bigger challenge to European interests without a readily-apparent non-US solution is Houthi aggression.

 

[TheColinous]

But generally if the EU adopted more growth-friendly policies, and made it easier for Americans who despise Trump to move there and get established with predictable prices for energy and so forth, they could attract the talent needed to surpass the USA.

I think that when people talk about "less regulation", what they really mean is "less vacation days, 80 hour work weeks, and let the boss demand that you're available at 1am for work reasons". That's what I hear when I hear CNBC types talk about "Europe's regulation to boost productivity".

We're productive enough. What we really don't need is a European Elon Musk that gets to throw his money weight around.

 

[arcite]

What are some big ideas that could shake up the EU for future growth? Turkey joining EU? A liberated Ukraine joining EU? (imagine the vast infrastructure and public spending opportunities in a liberated Ukraine....).

A tunnel to Morocco?

"The proposed tunnel would stretch 38.5 kilometers, with 28 kilometers running beneath the Strait of Gibraltar at depths between 175 and 475 meters below sea level.

The project is managed by Spanish state-owned company Secegsa, and is designed to connect Spain’s Cadiz province to the Moroccan port city of Tangiers."

Spoiler

https://www.moroccoworldnews.com/20...y-spain-morocco-undersea-rail-tunnel-project/

The nearly complete Undersea tunnel from Denmark to Germany;

Spoiler

View: https://youtu.be/jm2ekl2agyM?si=GPLc9IAT1ez0o9ER

Norway is also building tunnels (yea, not technically part of EU);

Spoiler

https://www.euronews.com/next/2025/...st-and-deepest-subsea-road-beneath-its-fjords

I know Poland is also currently investing in a huge regional rail/ high speed rail project.

The problem is, to be a great power, you need growth, the EU doesn't have growth, it's still quickly aging and shrinking. Maybe if Germany/France (and others) green light a bunch of large scale chip fabs and the like, 5 years from now could look entirely different.

NYT having a dig at post-WWII German infrastructure literally disintegrating

Spoiler

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/04/10/world/europe/germany-new-government-infrastructure.html

 

[demultiplexer]

I kind of enjoy the idea of starting a European politics thread as a counterweight to US politics, but man... the US has some convoluted political systems and weird state stuff, but Europe is literally 54 times that. Even as a native who has been interested in political systems since high school and done all the weird nerd stuff to prove it (model UN, exchange to another country to see their stupid local government, etc.) I cannot even begin to say anything useful about European politics beyond a very small handful of countries in the region. And an embarrassing amount of those things I can say are memes (e.g. Rheinland-Pfalz is the Mississippi of Germany - and more generally: Germany is basically the USA from a political perspective, complete with east-west divide (comparable to the south vs north), federalization and all the tension that brings, weird obsession with nazis and russians, etc. etc. - it's like a mirror).

The problem is, to be a great power, you need growth, the EU doesn't have growth, it's still quickly aging and shrinking. Maybe if Germany/France (and others) green light a bunch of large scale chip fabs and the like, 5 years from now could look entirely different.

I think the biggest mistake you can make is to impose US style thinking onto Europe. Europe has had to manage booms and busts in economies for centuries and has, across many countries, age-old institutions that know how to deal with that. Growth of topline economic figures is not a priority. Stability is the name of the game.

I think the biggest error in judgment of Europe has been to follow the US in the massive corporate offshoring and consolidation spree that has happened since the Reagan/Thatcher era. It's always been slowed down and looked at suspiciously, so things aren't nearly as bad as in the USA, but Europe has still lost a decent part of its key industry and service players. My hope is that the current demise of Pax Americana puts some fire under the asses of European leaders to claw back some lost expertise, onshore manufacturing and services.

 

[Neverm1nd]

What are some big ideas that could shake up the EU for future growth? Turkey joining EU? A liberated Ukraine joining EU? (imagine the vast infrastructure and public spending opportunities in a liberated Ukraine....).

A tunnel to Morocco?

"The proposed tunnel would stretch 38.5 kilometers, with 28 kilometers running beneath the Strait of Gibraltar at depths between 175 and 475 meters below sea level.

The project is managed by Spanish state-owned company Secegsa, and is designed to connect Spain’s Cadiz province to the Moroccan port city of Tangiers."

Spoiler

https://www.moroccoworldnews.com/20...y-spain-morocco-undersea-rail-tunnel-project/

The nearly complete Undersea tunnel from Denmark to Germany;

Spoiler

View: https://youtu.be/jm2ekl2agyM?si=GPLc9IAT1ez0o9ER

Norway is also building tunnels (yea, not technically part of EU);

Spoiler

https://www.euronews.com/next/2025/...st-and-deepest-subsea-road-beneath-its-fjords

I know Poland is also currently investing in a huge regional rail/ high speed rail project.

The problem is, to be a great power, you need growth, the EU doesn't have growth, it's still quickly aging and shrinking. Maybe if Germany/France (and others) green light a bunch of large scale chip fabs and the like, 5 years from now could look entirely different.

NYT having a dig at post-WWII German infrastructure literally disintegrating

Spoiler

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/04/10/world/europe/germany-new-government-infrastructure.html

The EUs ageing problem has been greatly overstated. The EU population is projected to shrink by 6% by 2100 (excluding any new members). The US population will shrink by 5% (30% without immigration), and China's by over 60%.

On economic growth, there's a lot of hand-wringing over the US quicker growth than the eurozone's over the last 25 years, but that entire discussion is missing a key point. The EU is deliberately transferring growth from the rich countries ( mostly in the eurozone) to the poorer ones (mostly outside the eurozone). Surprise: if you look at the entire current EU, GDP per capita is 68% of the US now, which is exactly the same number as in 2000. Looking forward, Trump seems to be doing his best to crash the US economy, so that gap is set to shrink, even if it's more to do with the US kneecapping it's own growth rather than the EU doing things right, although I think the latter will happen too.

https://www.futuribles.com/en/sur-le-decrochage-economique-europe-etats-unis/

 

[Tijger]

Why must it be an either-or zero-sum game? Being self-sufficient and empowered doesn’t mean having to be a hegemon. EU member states have learned their lessons from the past, and most aren’t keen on repeating the failures.

Exactly this.

 

[Tijger]

I think that when people talk about "less regulation", what they really mean is "less vacation days, 80 hour work weeks, and let the boss demand that you're available at 1am for work reasons". That's what I hear when I hear CNBC types talk about "Europe's regulation to boost productivity".

We're productive enough. What we really don't need is a European Elon Musk that gets to throw his money weight around.

Well, 20 vacation days IS literally a regulation in the EU

Quite often, and yes this is anecdotal but also supported by productivity data, you'll find that Europeans deliver the same results in 40 hours or less than Americans in 60.

 

[Neverm1nd]

Well, 20 vacation days IS literally a regulation in the EU

Quite often, and yes this is anecdotal but also supported by productivity data, you'll find that Europeans deliver the same results in 40 hours or less than Americans in 60.

Well, a minimum of 20 days. Most have a lot more.

On productivity, this is entirely unsurprising. Employers didn't agree to a 40 hour work week out of the goodness of their heart. During WWII, the allies desperately tried to increase ammunition production output with longer and longer hours, but it had the opposite effect, productivity fell. So they tried to back down, and found an "optimal" point at 40 hours (they didn't actually try less than 40). There's been a lot of experiments with shorter work hours around the world, such as the recent German four-day work week experiment. The vast majority of them suggest that the optimum is closer to 30 hours than 40. The belief that you can produce more by working longer hours is entirely unsupported by any kind of evidence, yet disturbingly commonly held by employers in both the EU and the US.

 

[Tijger]

Well, a minimum of 20 days. Most have a lot more.

On productivity, this is entirely unsurprising. Employers didn't agree to a 40 hour work week out of the goodness of their heart. During WWII, the allies desperately tried to increase ammunition production output with longer and longer hours, but it had the opposite effect, productivity fell. So they tried to back down, and found an "optimal" point at 40 hours (they didn't actually try less than 40). There's been a lot of experiments with shorter work hours around the world, such as the recent German four-day work week experiment. The vast majority of them suggest that the optimum is closer to 30 hours than 40. The belief that you can produce more by working longer hours is entirely unsupported by any kind of evidence, yet disturbingly commonly held by employers in both the EU and the US.

My wife had, at her previous job with a US company on a Dutch contract, 38 holiday days a year which she used up as a rule, we dont know sick days here, you get paid 100% when you are sick whether thats one week or 6 weeks, she never got less than exceeds on her reviews or bonuses. The US company in question made record profits from its EU parts. shrug

 

[karolus]

What are some big ideas that could shake up the EU for future growth? Turkey joining EU? A liberated Ukraine joining EU? (imagine the vast infrastructure and public spending opportunities in a liberated Ukraine....).

How could Türkiye have any hopes of joining the EU with Erdogan at the helm? They are a virtual dictatorship, and he would be loath to give up power.

 

[Tijger]

How could Türkiye have any hopes of joining the EU with Erdogan at the helm? They are a virtual dictatorship, and he would be loath to give up power.

It cannot join as it stands. Its not more complicated than that.

The EU has demands for joining and Turkey doesnt meet them and hasnt made barely any progress in meeting them since first applying to join. I think Turkey right now is compliant on one of 33 sections that would need to be absolved for joining the EU.

 

[CPX]

It cannot join as it stands. Its not more complicated than that.

The EU has demands for joining and Turkey doesnt meet them and hasnt made barely any progress in meeting them since first applying to join. I think Turkey right now is compliant on one of 33 sections that would need to be absolved for joining the EU.

I may be a simple non-European, but I do suggest the EU probably needs to shore up enforcement mechanisms within existing member states before admitting new ones in.

 

[Tijger]

I may be a simple non-European, but I do suggest the EU probably needs to shore up enforcement mechanisms within existing member states before admitting new ones in.

Yes. But here you run into the biggest problem of the EU, member states are sovereign states and the EU has no mechanism to remove a member, the worst it can do is suspend a member and that nuclear option has never been used yet. If it ever gets used I wager it will be used against Hungary.

It is, however, starting to take a tougher line on member states that refuse to follow the tenets and principles of the EU, see Poland and its judicial crisis.

 

[CPX]

Yes. But here you run into the biggest problem of the EU, member states are sovereign states and the EU has no mechanism to remove a member, the worst it can do is suspend a member and that nuclear option has never been used yet. If it ever gets used I wager it will be used against Hungary.

It is, however, starting to take a tougher line on member states that refuse to follow the tenets and principles of the EU, see Poland and its judicial crisis.

That, to me, is the EU's big obstacle towards being that alternative to US/China hegemons. Even just focusing on the currency situation, yes, the euro is more stable than the US dollar right now...but the political complexities mentioned earlier already subjected it to internal gamesmanship by just a few members.

For the record, I don't actually think the world should have a single reserve currency but rather a basket of them or at least more regional concentration.

 

[Shavano]

Geographically and politically that doesn't make sense, of course, but I'd really like to see Canada move toward some kind of official partnership with the EU. As a Canadian, I really envy the EU's tighter standards on things like food safety and digital privacy, and some kind of system for making it easier for us to move to and work in each other's territories would be wonderful, even if totally free movement isn't practical.
There was an editorial in a major Canadian newspaper yesterday calling for Canada to drop tariffs and duties on online purchases made from Europe for items under $800. I think that would be a really great first step towards a closer relationship.

A lot of the impetus for those tighter standards came from Europe being a much more populated continent, so the environmental regulations are just necessary if you're not going to be living in a highly polluted and environmentally degraded environment. For trade, maybe Canada and the EU would both benefit from lower trade barriers. Europe has an abundance of people, Canada and abundance of resources, land, and agricultural capacity.

Canada isn't exactly close to Europe, but it's closer than the United States.

 

[Shavano]

At this point, it’s the EU’s moment to lose. The US is turning their back on the world, and someone is going to fill the vacuum. Looking at the unmitigated chaos emanating from Washington, it probably wouldn’t require a heavy lift from Brussels. Just more stability, for starters.

The thing that makes that harder is the EU's structure. You've got 27 national governments that really have to be on board.