Epstein client list, does it exist or not?

Macam

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Per NYT and MTG’s image rehab tour, Trump is mad at MTG for threatening to identify some of the Epstein perpetrators:

After the hearing, Greene held a news conference at which she threatened to identify some of the men who had abused the women. (Greene says that she didn't know those names herself but that she could have gotten them from the victims.) Trump called Greene to voice his displeasure. Greene was in her Capitol Hill office, and according to a staff member, everyone in the suite of rooms could hear him yelling at her as she listened to him on speakerphone. Greene says she expressed her perplexity over his intransigence. According to Greene, Trump replied, "My friends will get hurt."

When she urged Trump to invite some of Epstein's female victims to the Oval Office, she says, he angrily informed her that they had done nothing to merit the honor. It would be the last conversation Greene and Trump would ever have.

He has no friends and regularly refers to himself in third person, but I’m sure he was just asking questions and floating consequences for, you know, “a friend”.
 

dzid

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Per NYT and MTG’s image rehab tour, Trump is mad at MTG for threatening to identify some of the Epstein perpetrators:



He has no friends and regularly refers to himself in third person, but I’m sure he was just asking questions and floating consequences for, you know, “a friend”.
Fuck his friends.
 

Doomlord_uk

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To this day, I can not understand the people who looked at that squirming worm of a man and thought “All right, I’ll give him a go” instead of having an involuntary shudder of disgust.
Can't? or won't? There have been plenty of excellent articles over the years, on Vox and Medium and elsewhere, on why Trump appealed to many voters and continued to do so.
 

Wheels Of Confusion

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Can't? or won't? There have been plenty of excellent articles over the years, on Vox and Medium and elsewhere, on why Trump appealed to many voters and continued to do so.
I understand that there ARE sincere Flat Earthers, but I cannot get inside that mindset enough to really UNDERSTAND the Flat Earthers.
 

karolus

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Per NYT and MTG’s image rehab tour, Trump is mad at MTG for threatening to identify some of the Epstein perpetrators:



He has no friends and regularly refers to himself in third person, but I’m sure he was just asking questions and floating consequences for, you know, “a friend”.
This may be the crux of the current brouhaha.

Trump has repeatedly proven true his maxim of being able to shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and get away with it.

On the other hand, there are some influential people who were heavily involved in Epstein’s web who don’t benefit from this Teflon coating, and are calling in their chits to keep their dealings out of public domain. Trump needs these people, and thus has been slow walking the process.
 

dzid

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This may be the crux of the current brouhaha.

Trump has repeatedly proven true his maxim of being able to shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and get away with it.

On the other hand, there are some influential people who were heavily involved in Epstein’s web who don’t benefit from this Teflon coating, and are calling in their chits to keep their dealings out of public domain. Trump needs these people, and thus has been slow walking the process.
That and the fact that if any one of these guys goes down, he'll want to take anyone else he can down with him.
 

Macam

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For someone who professes to not being a child sex trafficker and pedophile, he sure surrounds himself with a lot of them, claims to be on good terms with all of them, and has a criminal and historical record that belies his claims. Can’t imagine why he would be siccing the DOJ on an Epstein reporter if he really cared about the victims or promising to release all the files:unsure:

:: rolls out a dusty Glenn Beck chalkboard ::
 

Wheels Of Confusion

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Performative skepticism and contrarianism. Same as those who pretend to believe Trump isn't a multiple rapist and a thief.
No, that's not it. You're assuming dishonesty and intent to deceive. That doesn't fit their behavior. There are people who really don't believe the Earth is round and that buy into the belief that some cabal is hiding this truth from the rest of us.

You also don't understand Flat Earthers.
 

Shavano

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No, that's not it. You're assuming dishonesty and intent to deceive. That doesn't fit their behavior. There are people who really don't believe the Earth is round and that buy into the belief that some cabal is hiding this truth from the rest of us.

You also don't understand Flat Earthers.
you might be describing a minority of them. I am convinced most of them are just putting on a show and trolling the rest of us.
 
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Da Xiang

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No, that's not it. You're assuming dishonesty and intent to deceive. That doesn't fit their behavior. There are people who really don't believe the Earth is round and that buy into the belief that some cabal is hiding this truth from the rest of us.

You also don't understand Flat Earthers.
I have a flat Earther family member.
 

Da Xiang

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you might be describing a minority of them. I am convinced most of them are just putting on a show and trolling the rest of us.
How noble.....you really want to believe people aren't that stupid......look at the Maga people voting against their own self interest in supporting Trump. People really are THAT stupid.
 

sword_9mm

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I have a flat Earther family member.

Are they true believers?

What else don't they believe in? If I show them a photo of say a bird is that bird fake or is that bird real to them?

Are they normal in other ways or off into space in all things?

I certainly can't put myself in that headspace similar to Wheels so I'm interested in the inner workings of an oddball mind.
 

Doomlord_uk

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I understand that there ARE sincere Flat Earthers, but I cannot get inside that mindset enough to really UNDERSTAND the Flat Earthers.
IMO this is a bit of a disingenuous comment. People in 2015 voting for Trump were NOT anywhere near on the same 'level' as flat earthers. Even four years later... To explain very simply, many of them simply viewed Democrats as an evil force, and voted for the Republican guy. Others liked his (then) appeal as an independent to the establishment who would 'drain the swamp'. Others wanted to believe a (to them) successful billionaire would have just the right kind of savvy to run the affairs of state. Etc.

Second time around is a bit more interesting and challenging, but I don't think it's that hard to get inside the mind of a Trump voter if you really want to. You don't have to agree with someone to understand them. Yet time and again I see people ACT as though understanding implies agreement and that, it appears to me, seems to be quite common behaviour amongst leftwing people (though of course it is not limited to them).

Conspiracy theorists CAN be understood. MAGA supports CAN be understood.
 

Doomlord_uk

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you might be describing a minority of them. I am convinced most of them are just putting on a show and trolling the rest of us.
I'm torn on this. I suspect you're correct, and have spent some time in the past trying to find them on Facebook groups - and failing. However I have a friend who claims to have come across many in his own time trying to debate them. They are there, for sure. But I'm also certain quite a few of them get off on trolling others - which is hardly a rare behaviour alas.
 

sword_9mm

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That may be all nice and well with ephemeral stuff like politics but not hard facts.

Sure maybe a billionaire would be good at business things, maybe we should round up all non-whites and send them to wherever, and maybe tariffs are really great but those are softer than a pillow.

The earth is round full stop. There's no debate. No that's not empathy or anything like that. The empathy is to get that person help, not try to understand why they're fucking wrong as hell.
 

DarthSlack

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IMO this is a bit of a disingenuous comment. People in 2015 voting for Trump were NOT anywhere near on the same 'level' as flat earthers. Even four years later... To explain very simply, many of them simply viewed Democrats as an evil force, and voted for the Republican guy. Others liked his (then) appeal as an independent to the establishment who would 'drain the swamp'. Others wanted to believe a (to them) successful billionaire would have just the right kind of savvy to run the affairs of state. Etc.

Second time around is a bit more interesting and challenging, but I don't think it's that hard to get inside the mind of a Trump voter if you really want to. You don't have to agree with someone to understand them. Yet time and again I see people ACT as though understanding implies agreement and that, it appears to me, seems to be quite common behaviour amongst leftwing people (though of course it is not limited to them).

Conspiracy theorists CAN be understood. MAGA supports CAN be understood.

CITATION NEEDED.

Hardcore MAGA display all the tendencies of flat earthers. They believe whole-heatedly in lies peddled by their leadership despite facts in evidence. Vaccines, the 2020 election, immigrants eating pets.... The list is pretty endless. And while I guess one can "understand" these lunatics, what's the point? They've rejected reality and are happy to keep doing so. The occasional individual might get deprogrammed out, but nobody is going to make any significant headway in the face of the Republican outrage manufacturing complex.

As for the MAGA-lite, they're really no better. Many of them are single issue voters and frequently decided that Trump was going to give them something for free. But again, the willful disbelief of evidence right in front of their eyes is a major factor that isn't a very tractable problem.

Then there's the tribals. They vote Republican because they've always voted Republican just like their great-great-great-great grandpappy taught them. There's generally no thinking there to understand.

And then you get to the crowd driven largely by racism and misogyny (and they're not exclusive of the above types). Nothing is reaching them.

So while you CAN understand them, it effectively is a waste because it gets you absolutely nothing.
 

Sajuuk

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Can't? or won't? There have been plenty of excellent articles over the years, on Vox and Medium and elsewhere, on why Trump appealed to many voters and continued to do so.
Why are we playing a constant game of rationalizing the populists? After all, they're not fucking quiet about their rationale.

Trump offers authoritarians the same thing they've demanded since the dawn of us: a powerful authority figure offering easy answers to hard questions that conveniently fall upon whatever out-group is in vogue. He lavishes ethno-nationalism and revanchism on the dominant socioeconomic demographic, and they eat it right up.

America was great. $You deserve greatness. $They stole it from $You. $You deserve houses. $They stole the houses. $You deserve jobs. $They stole the jobs. $You deserve power. $They stole power.

Edit: and, most importantly of all, $You were pure and $They made you impure.
 
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hamete

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That's where empathy comes in. There are people out there who have a significantly different mental model than you do, and any serious interactions with them have to take this into account.
We've tried to have that discussion before and it goes no where. The only explanation is that Republican voters are all evil racists. Or flat earthers are liars.

People truly live in different realities at times.

It's why both sides describe the other as evil. Trying to logically reconcile or "put yourself in their shoes" does work because the fundamental rules are different in the other reality.

That partly helps to explain some of this: https://www.nytimes.com/2025/12/29/...e_code=1.AVA.G1S9.5FO_578cNT6j&smid=url-share
I find it very hard, almost impossible, to understand how someone could vote for Trump the first time, then vote for Harris, and then Trump is not doing all that bad. But it happens. Just saying that person is dumb or a racist is too simple and misses something.
 

DarthSlack

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We've tried to have that discussion before and it goes no where. The only explanation is that Republican voters are all evil racists. Or flat earthers are liars.

People truly live in different realities at times.

It's why both sides describe the other as evil. Trying to logically reconcile or "put yourself in their shoes" does work because the fundamental rules are different in the other reality.

That partly helps to explain some of this: https://www.nytimes.com/2025/12/29/...e_code=1.AVA.G1S9.5FO_578cNT6j&smid=url-share
I find it very hard, almost impossible, to understand how someone could vote for Trump the first time, then vote for Harris, and then Trump is not doing all that bad. But it happens. Just saying that person is dumb or a racist is too simple and misses something.

Does it really miss something? Trump was not some abstract concept in 2024. His whole first term record was out there, Project 2025 was out there, and Trump himself made absolutely no bones about the fact that his second term would be about revenge. Absolutely nothing he's done this term has been a surprise, Trump and his bootlickers were openly discussing doing exactly what's been done. So if a voter is surprised by Trump being Trump, dumb or racist seem like perfectly valid explanations.
 

Quirinus

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We've tried to have that discussion before and it goes no where. The only explanation is that Republican voters are all evil racists.

IMO, that is not accurate. Those arguments as I remember them distilled to they are either evil racists or they are just fine with racism done by others in power. That the racism, much less sexism and criminality, was not a deal-breaker. None of what the republican party stated they were going to do was hidden.

Or flat earthers are liars.

For a while I was watching debates and interviews with flat-earthers comprised of both professional figures promoting this idea and rank-and-file people living their lives. I was intrested in people breaking down the multiple sources of 'logic' and data flat-earthers use to justify their theories. One common elelment to nearly all of them is that flat-earthers were more than likely also religious, usually evangelical. In a number of these interviews they would inevitably let the cat out of the bag by stating some element of the bible that would shape this thought of the earth being flat, usually the 'four corners of the world' statement.

One other common element which is par for the course with the highly-religious is that when pressed with examples and data that show the world is round, its the data or the source of the reportage that is wrong. Never is the premise that 'the world is flat' considered wrong. I've seen flat-earthers who do tests to show the world is flat only to have the data show it is not and they immediately think they did something wrong or there is another factor they are missing. Even when they got flat-earthers to go to Antartica to see if there was a 24-hour sun, the community made up all kinds of nonsense to dismiss their observations.


From your link:

“I wish we could have a president that is doing what Trump is doing, but one that is not so divisive.”

Perry Hunter, 56, Sellersburg, Ind.


:rolleyes: An 'agreeable' amoral racist, sexist, barely concealed, but not supposedly sufficiently demonstrated, abuser of underage girls autocrat?

This man is a high school teacher. Jebus..... :rolleyes:

Many of them are just as goofy. IMO, another useless article meant to obfuscate the corrupt ravaging of our goverment through the 'thoughtful' public sentiments of these regular polite voters. No shock its the New York Times.
 
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Quirinus

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Does it really miss something? Trump was not some abstract concept in 2024. His whole first term record was out there, Project 2025 was out there, and Trump himself made absolutely no bones about the fact that his second term would be about revenge. Absolutely nothing he's done this term has been a surprise, Trump and his bootlickers were openly discussing doing exactly what's been done. So if a voter is surprised by Trump being Trump, dumb or racist seem like perfectly valid explanations.


I remember a quote from somewhere that I agree with: "America had an open book test with all the answers highlighted and still failed."

I don't believe most people voting for Trump didn't know what they were voting for or were unaware of what was being claimed about the Republicans.
 
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I remember a quote from somewhere that I agree with: "America had an open book test with all the answers highlighted and still failed."

I don't believe most people voting for Trump didn't know what they were voting for or were unaware of what was being claimed about the Republicans.

Some people do get a different book. So I am not sure everyone is aware. I do think a lot of people were feeling (do not need to be truth) decrease in their own prosperity and want something different.
 

DarthSlack

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Some people do get a different book. So I am not sure everyone is aware. I do think a lot of people were feeling (do not need to be truth) decrease in their own prosperity and want something different.

What book would that be? The one where there actually was a successful infrastructure week? The one where Trump isn't a convicted felon? The one where Trump isn't an adjudicated rapist? The one where Trump didn't mishandle classified documents? The one where Trump didn't encourage a mob to hang his own Vice President?
 
What book would that be? The one where there actually was a successful infrastructure week? The one where Trump isn't a convicted felon? The one where Trump isn't an adjudicated rapist? The one where Trump didn't mishandle classified documents? The one where Trump didn't encourage a mob to hang his own Vice President?

Whatever FOX news, Facebook/Wechat/Whatapps sharing, etc.
 

AdrianS

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What book would that be? The one where there actually was a successful infrastructure week? The one where Trump isn't a convicted felon? The one where Trump isn't an adjudicated rapist? The one where Trump didn't mishandle classified documents? The one where Trump didn't encourage a mob to hang his own Vice President?
I think you just described Murdoch media.
 

Quirinus

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Whatever FOX news, Facebook/Wechat/Whatapps sharing, etc.


Yeah, sure. I reiterate with part bolded as a response to your quote: I don't believe most people voting for Trump didn't know what they were voting for or were unaware of what was being claimed about the Republicans.
 
Yeah, sure. I reiterate with part bolded as a response to your quote: I don't believe most people voting for Trump didn't know what they were voting for or were unaware of what was being claimed about the Republicans.

Human are great at take mental shortcut and are intellectually lazy. We can also be very biased. I have know people who go down the anti-vaccine rabbit hole when they are sufficient trained/knowledgeable to understand the issue. I would not be surprised that fair amount of Trump voters are really that unaware or at least think the pros out weight the cons. For the matter, I am sure a lot of Democrats voters are voting with "vibe" also.

It is by no mean a good excuse. The whole point of wider education is to train people to think critically. However, it still rarely the case.

PS: It does seem I have gone off on a tangent and this post is probably closer to the Domestic USA thread...
 
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Lt_Storm

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IMO, that is not accurate. Those arguments as I remember them distilled to they are either evil racists or they are just fine with racism done by others in power. That the racism, much less sexism and criminality, was not a deal-breaker. None of what the republican party stated they were going to do was hidden.
I think these analysis discount the power of motivated reasoning and stupidity, specifically bias, delusion, and denial. Especially when an honest self assessment might require coming to negative conclusions about one's self, it's fairly trivial for someone to refuse to see what sits blatantly in from of their face undisguised.

It turns out that, when someone doesn't want to see something, there is no need to hide it. When you benefit from sexism, sexism becomes invisible. And, if you hold sexist beliefs, they are made unremarkable. From such a perspective, even the most obvious examples appear to be nothing whatever. It's related to the curse of knowledge, if you think everyone thinks like you do, then even someone pointing at the sexism and screaming is incomprehensible to the sexist.
 

Quirinus

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Human are great at take mental shortcut and are intellectually lazy. We can also be very biased. I have know people who go down the anti-vaccine rabbit hole when they are sufficient trained/knowledgeable to understand the issue. I would not be surprised that fair amount of Trump voters are really that unaware or at least think the pros out weight the cons. For the matter, I am sure a lot of Democrats voters are voting with "vibe" also.

It is by no mean a good excuse. The whole point of wider education is to train people to think critically. However, it still rarely the case.

Nope. Don't agree. DarthSlack was building a point about the sheer metric tonnage of awful and corrupt things Trump has done and said in his private life, during the campaign, and a whole first term of shittiness and criminality. Even if you watch nothing but Fox news and murdoch media, there is no way short of brain damage you weren't aware of some things that would make him a terrible candidate to lead the country, especially as the people who do vote for him are most likely the ones who make big pronouncements about 'character', 'family values', 'christian values', 'godliness'. etc.

If there are any vibes, it's because they identify with him in his 'outsider' stance in political and civil (I read that as obnoxious awfulness mixed with a lot of Dunning-Kruger behavior) or like that he is bringing agita and more pain to the people they don't like ( I read that as anyone who is not a WASP male). He's a vastly more racist Archie Bunker combined with Mussolini.

Regardless of how much or little of his awfulness they knew about, I am confident they supported his racism and corruption, or they were okay with his racist and corruption for other reasons. that, IMO were most likely just as awful. Probably subjugating women or stopping 'kommoonists'. in my experience, these people do a lot of 'whatabboutism' whenever anything about the man was brought up rather than deny it outright because they knew.

You get the last word. I stand by what I said and its criticism of this country/voters.
 

Lt_Storm

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Nope. Don't agree. DarthSlack was building a point about the sheer metric tonnage of awful and corrupt things Trump has done and said in his private life, during the campaign, and a whole first term of shittiness and criminality. Even if you watch nothing but Fox news and murdoch media, there is no way short of brain damage you weren't aware of some things that would make him a terrible candidate to lead the country, especially as the people who do vote for him are most likely the ones who make big pronouncements about 'character', 'family values', 'christian values', 'godliness'. etc.
Of course there is a way you could be unaware of those things, it's called stupidity and motivated reasoning. Though, I suppose that you could argue that motivated reasoning and study are kinds of brain damage even though they are characteristic behaviors of completely normal brain function.

And worse, of you are in such a situation, then it's impossible to imagine that there's a sheer metric ton of awful shit Trump has done and said in his private life, after all, according to the curse of knowledge, everyone knows the exact same facts about his holy mission that you do. So, anyone who is claiming otherwise obviously must be lying in their satanic efforts to undermine 'faimly vales' or whatever bit of motivated reasoning make him the savior of Our People (who, probably, are doomed because they have been insufficiently pure).

If there are any vibes, it's because they identify with him in his 'outsider' stance in political and civil (I read that as obnoxious awfulness mixed with a lot of Dunning-Kruger behavior) or like that he is bringing agita and more pain to the people they don't like ( I read that as anyone who is not a WASP male). He's a vastly more racist Archie Bunker combined with Mussolini.

Regardless of how much or little of his awfulness they knew about, I am confident they supported his racism and corruption, or they were okay with his racist and corruption for other reasons. that, IMO were most likely just as awful. Probably subjugating women or stopping 'kommoonists'. in my experience, these people do a lot of 'whatabboutism' whenever anything about the man was brought up rather than deny it outright because they knew.
And all of this is explained by how, to the vaguely racist person, racism isn't really an observable phenomena, sure, black people might be poor, but that is just an unremarkable aspect of the world which doesn't need any particular explanation*. As a result, it's impossible for him to be more "racist" than, well, anyone, because any evidence of that state is beyond their horizon of observation. It might exist, but, to them, it doesn't mean the same things you think it means.

* In fact, it is better that remain unexplained, after all, any attempt to explain it might imply something about oneself that one would prefer not to recognize.

As for the corruption, well, everyone does it, why shouldn't Our President do it on the behalf of Our People?


Which, of course, doesn't say anything terribly positive about their outlook on the world. But, this idea that they "know" what's up and analyze it similarly to the way we do is... laughably inaccurate. Because they "know" different things they see a different world and come to different conclusions. Things that are obvious to you and I are actually invisible to them.
 
Can't? or won't? There have been plenty of excellent articles over the years, on Vox and Medium and elsewhere, on why Trump appealed to many voters and continued to do so.
There is a difference between "I don't understand what motivated people to vote for Trump" and "I don't understand why people thought that Trump would deliver on the things that motivate people to vote for Trump". I somewhat understand the former. I am perplexed about the latter. Nobody that follows Trump could be under any illusion that he meant what he said, because his deceitfulness and dishonesty is like a bullhorn placed on top of his head in the on-position.
 

Doomlord_uk

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there is no way short of brain damage you weren't aware of some things that would make him a terrible candidate to lead the country
(^posted by Quirinus; can't see offhand where the original post of his was, this is from a quote itself)

I'm sure. But then what you're all missing here is - look at the other candidates. Whether it was the Republicans running for the Republican nomination, whether it was the Democrats, or Hillary Clinton or Joe Biden in particular... it largely didn't matter how bad DJT was, at least he was better than the godless, gay-loving, coming-for-your-guns, bring-more-immigrants, war-on-coal, inflation-loving Dems. Almost EVERY time I discussed DJT with my (now erstwhile) conservative american friend, it was framed in 'yes but... look at HRC/Joe Biden/Kamala Harris/The Dems'. It's a very simple comparison, but as long as Republicans continue to brainwash their followers into believe 'the other side' are worse, then it really doesn't matter how bad DJT is or was. And it's really very simple to understand how they remain in power.

Of course what this means in practise is that American Democracy is broken - public discussion and debate is now almost if not actually impossible.
 

DarthSlack

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(^posted by Quirinus; can't see offhand where the original post of his was, this is from a quote itself)

I'm sure. But then what you're all missing here is - look at the other candidates. Whether it was the Republicans running for the Republican nomination, whether it was the Democrats, or Hillary Clinton or Joe Biden in particular... it largely didn't matter how bad DJT was, at least he was better than the godless, gay-loving, coming-for-your-guns, bring-more-immigrants, war-on-coal, inflation-loving Dems. Almost EVERY time I discussed DJT with my (now erstwhile) conservative american friend, it was framed in 'yes but... look at HRC/Joe Biden/Kamala Harris/The Dems'. It's a very simple comparison, but as long as Republicans continue to brainwash their followers into believe 'the other side' are worse, then it really doesn't matter how bad DJT is or was. And it's really very simple to understand how they remain in power.

Of course what this means in practise is that American Democracy is broken - public discussion and debate is now almost if not actually impossible.

Which brings us back to that Republicans are either stupid or racist and like being that way. And trying to appeal to them is a complete waste of time.

To try and bring this somewhat back on topic, the MAGA movement to release the Epstein files was based almost entirely on what you're pointing to: Republicans, backed by their echo chamber media, had convinced themselves that Democrats would figure prominently. When it became clear that Trump was a MAJOR figure in Epstein's life, an awful lot of the pressure from MAGA went away. Sure, you've got a couple of people like Greene, but she's being forced out of the party over her continued pressure over the Epstein files.

Which again bring us back to stupid or racist.
 

Doomlord_uk

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I don't doubt that, by left wing perspectives, they are racist. And one can hardly overestimate the stupidity manifesting in MAGA land en masse. But if you can bring yourself to see the world from their (flawed/ignorant/heavily propagandised) perspective, their behaviour is not that hard to comprehend nor that irrational. This is I think one of the frustrations I have with (very) leftwing people, they just insist on their own viewpoint not just as right (fair enough - though everyone naturally starts from this position) but that no-one else is even entitled to a viewpoint since it isn't leftwing approved. No, this is not a behaviour exclusive to the left of course, but it is a problem for the left and you can tell that when they say things like 'I just don't get it, how can people not agree with me???' with a genuine look of confusion on their faces, before rationalising it as racism, stupidity, tribalism, etc.

As for topic of the thread... my guess is that, as long as the Trump regime keeps pulling the wool over their eyes, they're going to suspend suspicion or judgement. At some point something SOLID is going to drop that will plainly convict Trump, beyond the obvious reaching of leftwing sources who mostly preach to the left anyway. The frustration in part and as always is watching how the Democratic Party are playing this, stringing it out. At least in part, I suspect they are pursuing political advantage more than they are pursuing justice. Of course the DP does not control any branch of government right now, let alone all three... Whilst Rome Washington burns, it does feel like the Dems are fiddling...
 
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fractl

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