Echo: Ex-Hitman devs bring machine learning to stealth games

"How do you interact with your own play style? That's the core of our gameplay."

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[Kazper]

This had flown under my radar, but color me intrigued. I'm gonna keep an eye on this - it sounds like a very interesting design, both as a player and a amateur designer myself.

 

[frewster]

I'm glad you did an article on this. I hadn't heard of it up until now and it has my interest!

 

[Nowicki]

This reminds me of the game hello neighbor. Every time you get in the house, and get caught the evil neighbor will block the window, or put a chair behind the door you came in, or setup several other ways to block you. Of course in that game its one enemy, and many ways to get in so its not completely unforgiving.

 

[Edgar Allan Esquire]

The inspiration list of books is enough to get a fanboy squeal out of me. I may have to buy it even if it turns out to be garbage if there's enough homages in feature and form. Loving that I'm seeing Nihei show up more often recently.

 

[ManuOtaku]

Love pretty much all their inspirations for the game that are stated in the article, and loved their previous hitman games, therefore colour me highly interested. Thanks for the article, never heard of the game before this very moment.

 

[TheNinja]

This AI learning could be used in other ways. I'm thinking adjustable difficulty level to fit the game to the person playing so it will be challenging without being frustrating.

I do like the idea of the game, the idea of an AI that evolves with your skills while giving you some room to breath. I will try when I can.

 

[Toasty27]

Will we _ever_ get a undeniably heterosexual male lead in video games and movies ever again? Seems everything is "powerful females" nowadays. Because, science.

Uhh......Wolfenstein: The New Order? And its upcoming sequel?

Every entry in the FarCry series?

The vast majority of single-player action/adventure/FPS titles?


Even "nowadays" there are plenty of examples

 

[dahud]

Based on the examples given in the article, I'm not convinced that the machine learning approach is accomplishing anything novel here. Unless I missed one, there were four actions attributed to the learning AI:

- Sneaking up on the player
- Getting health items
- Using elevators
- Learning that shallow water is safe

I will admit that I've never seen a good sneaking AI, but that might be because most games don't want one; it's your power fantasy, you're normally sneaking up on them.
The middle two are trivial activities that bots have been doing since Quake 3. Perhaps the means of performing these actions is novel here, but the result certainly isn't. As for the fourth, why would the bot have thought that shallow water was deadly in the first place?

The sneaking bit is interesting, though. I'd like to see exactly what it's doing to sneak up on me. More interesting, though, would be if the bot learned how to ambush, in places where you hadn't ambushed it before. It would be easy for the bot to just replay actions that you did in the last round, but I hope they're doing something with more depth.

 

[Sixclaws]

Will we _ever_ get a undeniably heterosexual male lead in video games and movies ever again? Seems everything is "powerful females" nowadays. Because, science.

Well, it could be worse.

Also, the game seems focused on gameplay and strategy rather than being just another walking simulator.

 

[Sixclaws]

It makes you wonder how the game's AI will react if you go the non-lethal route, and if there's going to be a M. Night Shyamalan plot twist where by the end of the game you find out that the AI was aware of your actions during the Lights Out cycle.

 

[SymmetricChaos]

Based on the examples given in the article, I'm not convinced that the machine learning approach is accomplishing anything novel here. Unless I missed one, there were four actions attributed to the learning AI:

- Sneaking up on the player
- Getting health items
- Using elevators
- Learning that shallow water is safe

I will admit that I've never seen a good sneaking AI, but that might be because most games don't want one; it's your power fantasy, you're normally sneaking up on them.
The middle two are trivial activities that bots have been doing since Quake 3. Perhaps the means of performing these actions is novel here, but the result certainly isn't. As for the fourth, why would the bot have thought that shallow water was deadly in the first place?

The sneaking bit is interesting, though. I'd like to see exactly what it's doing to sneak up on me. More interesting, though, would be if the bot learned how to ambush, in places where you hadn't ambushed it before. It would be easy for the bot to just replay actions that you did in the last round, but I hope they're doing something with more depth.

The part that you missed was literally the entire article.

The unique part isn't what is does its that it learns while you play the game. So if you avoid picking up items that AI will never learn that it can do that. The gameplay concept seems to be that you're forced to restrict and constantly revise your strategy as the AI learns from you (it also gradually forgets things if you don't do them for a while apparently). That's not something I've ever seen a game of any real sophistication do, so yeah, really unique.

That said this doesn't sound like AI in the "deep learning" sense just normal video game AI. All of this seems like it can be implemented just by flagging certain actions.

 

[Kevin Lowe]

Will we _ever_ get a undeniably heterosexual male lead in video games and movies ever again? Seems everything is "powerful females" nowadays. Because, science.

Uhh......Wolfenstein: The New Order? And its upcoming sequel?

Every entry in the FarCry series?

The vast majority of single-player action/adventure/FPS titles?


Even "nowadays" there are plenty of examples

Adam Jensen? Corvo Attano?

Morgan Yu, if the player chose to be male, is heterosexual.

Technically, I wouldn't count Far Cry 4. Ajay's sexuality isn't relevant to his character; I don't think it's even brought up. Which brings me to my conclusion... how often is is really important that the player character be a heterosexual male? No one cares about who the Doom Slayer is.

 

[joequincy]

Will we _ever_ get a undeniably heterosexual male lead in video games and movies ever again? Seems everything is "powerful females" nowadays. Because, science.

Just going from E3 (and only counting games that have explicitly male leads, no character select options, and explicitly hetero or unspecified for irrelevance sexuality), we have:
The Artful Escape
The Evil Within 2
Wolfenstein II: The New Colossus
Metro Exodus
A Way Out
The Last Night
Days Gone
God of War (2018)
Spider-Man
Kingdom Hearts III
Assassin's Creed Origins
Far Cry 5
Middle Earth: Shadow of War

Incidentally, at the very same conference we had a mere 5 games announced that had explicitly female characters (no selectable characters or swapping between a male and a female)... or less than half the number that had male leads. The rest have selectable characters, no characters, or (in the case of Detroit: Become Human) leads of both genders which the player must use at different points.

As for Hollywood, if you actually think there are more female leads, you must be ignoring at least 80% of major new releases.

Differing opinions are fine but your comment was pure idiocy.

 

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

Will we _ever_ get a undeniably heterosexual male lead in video games and movies ever again? Seems everything is "powerful females" nowadays. Because, science.

Do you need a trigger warning, broflake?

 

[Dashelgr]

This sounds pretty cool conceptually but I'm hesitant about use of AI/ML to create enemies that react intelligently. I still remember the travesty that was Rome Total War's AI where the devs hyped up it's brilliance only for it to just die on launch. Of-course the scale here is much smaller but I'd rather they use a rule based approach to reacting. If you're more likely to sneak around then a rule to roam more and cover blind spots. If you're more aggressive then a rule to just hunker down. This sort of simplicity can still lead to a lot of emergent gameplay eg: the original Fear game.

 

[Deleted member 1]

I'm surprised I'm just now hearing about this game. The concept is intriguing and the sci-fi aspect has a weird, creepy kind of vibe.

 

[mhac]

Based on the examples given in the article, I'm not convinced that the machine learning approach is accomplishing anything novel here. Unless I missed one, there were four actions attributed to the learning AI:

- Sneaking up on the player
- Getting health items
- Using elevators
- Learning that shallow water is safe

I will admit that I've never seen a good sneaking AI, but that might be because most games don't want one; it's your power fantasy, you're normally sneaking up on them.
The middle two are trivial activities that bots have been doing since Quake 3. Perhaps the means of performing these actions is novel here, but the result certainly isn't. As for the fourth, why would the bot have thought that shallow water was deadly in the first place?

The sneaking bit is interesting, though. I'd like to see exactly what it's doing to sneak up on me. More interesting, though, would be if the bot learned how to ambush, in places where you hadn't ambushed it before. It would be easy for the bot to just replay actions that you did in the last round, but I hope they're doing something with more depth.

The part that you missed was literally the entire article.

The unique part isn't what is does its that it learns while you play the game. So if you avoid picking up items that AI will never learn that it can do that. The gameplay concept seems to be that you're forced to restrict and constantly revise your strategy as the AI learns from you (it also gradually forgets things if you don't do them for a while apparently). That's not something I've ever seen a game of any real sophistication do, so yeah, really unique.

That said this doesn't sound like AI in the "deep learning" sense just normal video game AI. All of this seems like it can be implemented just by flagging certain actions.

I'm intrigued by idea of training your enemy by revealing capability of strategic value. However, what concerns me is how exactly does that affect game play. First, since it's lights on/off I assume it doesn't matter if you're directly observed by the Echoes (which is annoying but understandable considering the plot). How the behavior of the Echoes is altered would be my focus for determining how enjoyable the game is. From the few demos and trailers I can find it's not obvious what the consequences of most learned behavior is. All I've been able to tell is the Echoes are "Zerg rush" simulators, and they "learn" better abilities to path to you (and to use ranged weapons). I find that combat tactic cop-out incredibly annoying (especially in modern shooters where both sides use ranged weapons). Also, if it simply stacks up omnipotence against learned capabilities (e.g. I learned you can sneak up, so now you just can't sneak up anymore), that would tend to ruin the fun.

I'll have to keep an eye on this title and see how nuanced the enemy behavior becomes when reacting to learned abilities.


-mhac³

 

[SymmetricChaos]

First, since it's lights on/off I assume it doesn't matter if you're directly observed by the Echoes (which is annoying but understandable considering the plot).

Seems like you're trapped in a place that is watching you. It makes the Echoes.

From the few demos and trailers I can find it's not obvious what the consequences of most learned behavior is. All I've been able to tell is the Echoes are "Zerg rush" simulators, and they "learn" better abilities to path to you (and to use ranged weapons). I find that combat tactic cop-out incredibly annoying (especially in modern shooters where both sides use ranged weapons).

Echoes want you dead for some reason. They learn the best ways to kill based on what you do. Its clearly not a "modern shooter" in any meaningful sense. I agree that the really interesting thing is how the Echos adapt.

Also, if it simply stacks up omnipotence against learned capabilities (e.g. I learned you can sneak up, so now you just can't sneak up anymore), that would tend to ruin the fun.

As mentioned in the article they tested that first and found that the AI quickly became so omniscient as to be invincible so it has been modified to not automatically memorize everything you do.

 

[mhac]

First, since it's lights on/off I assume it doesn't matter if you're directly observed by the Echoes (which is annoying but understandable considering the plot).

Seems like you're trapped in a place where you're watching you.

From the few demos and trailers I can find it's not obvious what the consequences of most learned behavior is. All I've been able to tell is the Echoes are "Zerg rush" simulators, and they "learn" better abilities to path to you (and to use ranged weapons). I find that combat tactic cop-out incredibly annoying (especially in modern shooters where both sides use ranged weapons).

Echoes want you dead for some reason. They learn the best ways to kill based on what you do. Its clearly not a "modern shooter" in any meaningful sense.

Also, if it simply stacks up omnipotence against learned capabilities (e.g. I learned you can sneak up, so now you just can't sneak up anymore), that would tend to ruin the fun.

As mentioned in the article they tested that first and found that the AI quickly became so omniscient as to be invincible so it has been modified to not automatically memorize everything you do.

I get that this game isn't a modern shooter. I just find it incredibly annoying (and frankly developmentally lazy) to lean on that tactic, and more so in a modern shooter game where it's generally inappropriate. Anyway, I hope there are environmental factors or some player ability that can combat Zerg rush, and force the echos to reconsider spamming that tactic (e.g. like Dashelgr mentioned regarding F.E.A.R). Otherwise, it gets a bit repetitive. Having balanced play on both the stealth portion and the loud portion (i.e. when detected), combined with the limited "memory" of the A.I. and unlearning, could create a fun dynamic of shifting game play.


-mhac³

 

[Captain Impulse]

Historically, I am terrible at stealth games, but Echo intrigues me. If the AI picks up on my shamefully bad play style, I might be able to outwit it with my own impatience and inanity!

 

[mikewhy]

Based on the examples given in the article, I'm not convinced that the machine learning approach is accomplishing anything novel here. Unless I missed one, there were four actions attributed to the learning AI:

- Sneaking up on the player
- Getting health items
- Using elevators
- Learning that shallow water is safe

I will admit that I've never seen a good sneaking AI, but that might be because most games don't want one; it's your power fantasy, you're normally sneaking up on them.
The middle two are trivial activities that bots have been doing since Quake 3. Perhaps the means of performing these actions is novel here, but the result certainly isn't. As for the fourth, why would the bot have thought that shallow water was deadly in the first place?

The sneaking bit is interesting, though. I'd like to see exactly what it's doing to sneak up on me. More interesting, though, would be if the bot learned how to ambush, in places where you hadn't ambushed it before. It would be easy for the bot to just replay actions that you did in the last round, but I hope they're doing something with more depth.

The part that you missed was literally the entire article.

The unique part isn't what is does its that it learns while you play the game. So if you avoid picking up items that AI will never learn that it can do that. The gameplay concept seems to be that you're forced to restrict and constantly revise your strategy as the AI learns from you (it also gradually forgets things if you don't do them for a while apparently). That's not something I've ever seen a game of any real sophistication do, so yeah, really unique.

That said this doesn't sound like AI in the "deep learning" sense just normal video game AI. All of this seems like it can be implemented just by flagging certain actions.

Sounds a lot like Metal Gear Solid V:

Attack primarily at night? Outposts start using lots of lights.

Favour headshots? Guards start wearing helmets.

Keep taking out outpost communications? Guards start patrolling from post to post.

 

[Zak]

I actually don't mind female characters in 3rd person games. I'd rather look at a girl's ass than a dude's ass for hours. Whenever I have an option, I choose a female character. In an FPS that doesn't really matter to me.

 

[MatthiasF]

Looks interesting but a lot of those animations look absolutely horrible.

 

[bigdrew172]

Might be interesting and I hope they can pull it off well. My worry is that it'll end up just being a set of small toggles, player used med pack, use medpack regardless if needed. I'd find it much more interesting if they could apply your actions in novels ways.

I do like the idea of stealth games adapting to how you play. MGS 5 is a great example.

I don't play a ton of stealth games because I get bored. The reason I get bored is that I find something that works and just do it ad nauseum. It's not even the games fault, the options are there in the game, I just can't bring myself to change my pattern. (Realizing just now that I may have issues). However if the game was adapting to expect my pattern I'd be forced to attempt new strategies in future levela.

 

[GaidinBDJ]

Historically, I am terrible at stealth games, but Echo intrigues me. If the AI picks up on my shamefully bad play style, I might be able to outwit it with my own impatience and inanity!

It does sound like an interesting twist. I've never been on for the "pure stealth" games since I find it gets kind of tedious at time. I always liked games like Assassin's Creed or Arkham * where (most to the time) you can choose between hiding in the shadows or running in with guns akimbo.

I wouldn't mind see those ideas combined: choice and adaptation. If run in with guns blazing, the enemies become cautious about confronting your directly and if you are stealthy the enemies smarter and start checking corner and traveling in pairs and so on.

 

[johnt007871]

Will we _ever_ get a undeniably heterosexual male lead in video games and movies ever again? Seems everything is "powerful females" nowadays. Because, science.

Uhh......Wolfenstein: The New Order? And its upcoming sequel?

Every entry in the FarCry series?

The vast majority of single-player action/adventure/FPS titles?


Even "nowadays" there are plenty of examples

Are we sure BJ is hetero? I mean, I think he waxes his chest.

 

[dng88]

A good review and excellent compliment to the personal one posted in ars also.