Developers express worry, appreciation for Steam’s new return policy

Game makers are wary of change but see some potential benefits as well.

Read the whole story

 

[Nowicki]

I think that this is great, and in some circumstances it would have been great before. Like when I got Alien isolation only to find out my graphics card didnt work with it. I would have loved to have refunded that expensive beast

 

[dfjdejulio]

If there's a genre of game where lots and lots and lots of people just don't want to play it for more than two hours... I think maybe the thing to do is add "rentals" as an option in addition to "sales" (and have the "rentals" not be subject to returns).

They've clearly got the technology for rentals, since they have pretty frequent "play this game for free this weekend" events. Maybe instead of selling a 90-minute-and-done game for $5 and risking returns, rent 30-minute sessions for 99¢ but without the risk of return.

Throw in a "rent-to-own" option where renting it five times gets you full ownership, and as a customer I could really get behind that.

 

[Grymdyn]

I like this as a different sort of demo system as a consumer. I'd also like Steam to add in something to prevent people from abusing the system. x% of your purchases are returned, so maybe there's extra scrutiny, a smaller window, or something like that.

 

[Deleted member 192806]

Will this "return" policy apply to games that require other platforms to operate?

Also what about "bundled" games?

 

[Big Wang]

If you don't want your game refunded, don't make games that people can beat within 2 hours.

Maybe your game should've stayed on Kongregate or Newgrounds

 

[xeoph]

I think the developers that want to say this is a horrible idea are more likely looking to play on hype and end up leaving customers feeling like they "gotchya."

I've definitely been duped more than once with such tactics and it's nice to see steam have my back. It's also nice to see the developers that complain because I'll watch those titles more closely before a purchase.

 

[prh99]

I love the devs comparing refunds before and after Steam's refund policy took effect, forgetting that refunds were almost impossible before this change.

 

[ken27238]

Developers express worry...

I'm sure the ones that use early access and never quite finish are shiting themselves.

 

[JayMcB74]

If the refund policy was in-place before, I would not have left the negative comments on the games that I did. This will probably help bring the negative comment level down for games.

 

[Kyle Orland]

Ostracus[/url]":1q2sr527]Will this "return" policy apply to games that require other platforms to operate?

Also what about "bundled" games?

Under 14 days/two hours of play, it's no questions asked. It applies to everything.

 

[ibcRandy]

As someone developing a game that is going to have a total playtime of under 2 hours I'm a little concerned about this, but my hope is that people will like the game enough to not request a refund after finishing it. I won't be charging much for it either (probably around $3 on steam), so likely people won't bother trying to game the system for three bucks.

I have heard from other indie devs that they've seen a ton more refund requests, but honestly I think once the hype dies down it will lead to more people willing to download a game and give it a shot as a trial knowing they can refund it if they don't like it.

 

[sword_9mm]

Grymdyn[/url]":1o5iwwq0]I like this as a different sort of demo system as a consumer. I'd also like Steam to add in something to prevent people from abusing the system. x% of your purchases are returned, so maybe there's extra scrutiny, a smaller window, or something like that.

like adding a 'restock' fee?

i like the rental idea. hell, 5$ for 24 hour access wouldn't be so bad. it'd be like the days of yore; hit the rental store, rent ya up a game, play for a night then return the next day. ahh nostalgia.

 

[mkuch90]

Kyle Orland[/url]":3vo3o54l]

Ostracus[/url]":3vo3o54l]Will this "return" policy apply to games that require other platforms to operate?

Also what about "bundled" games?

Under 14 days/two hours of play, it's no questions asked. It applies to everything.

What is only one game in the bundle I want refunded?

 

[BigDragon]

I'm much more willing to give games I would have skipped a chance thanks to the refund policy. There are so many games to play and so little time to play them all. It's hard sorting out the ones that are good and respect my limited gaming time from the ones that are just frustrating grinds. I think developers will realize the benefits once things calm down and consumer data is accumulated throughout the year.

 

[Grashnak]

mkuch90[/url]":2iddz0u6]

Kyle Orland[/url]":2iddz0u6]

Ostracus[/url]":2iddz0u6]Will this "return" policy apply to games that require other platforms to operate?

Also what about "bundled" games?

Under 14 days/two hours of play, it's no questions asked. It applies to everything.

What is only one game in the bundle I want refunded?

They'll refund you for what you bought - which was a bundle of games for a set price. I can't imagine any world in which they start calculating what percentage of a bundle each individual game is and dividing up your purchase price.

That's not a reasonable expectation.

 

[dfjdejulio]

mkuch90[/url]":208md5vk]

Kyle Orland[/url]":208md5vk]

Ostracus[/url]":208md5vk]Will this "return" policy apply to games that require other platforms to operate?

Also what about "bundled" games?

Under 14 days/two hours of play, it's no questions asked. It applies to everything.

What is only one game in the bundle I want refunded?

I'd be seriously shocked if you could get a refund on that and keep the rest of the bundle.

I mean, what if you know before buying the bundle that you won't play one of the games, but the bundle price is still less than the cost of the games you do want individually? In that situation, you suck it up and end up with an extra game you won't use, and it's still a financial win.

(If it's not priced that way, then just return the whole bundle and then re-buy the individual games you want.)

 

[lewax00]

mkuch90[/url]":2jxtrgzj]

Kyle Orland[/url]":2jxtrgzj]

Ostracus[/url]":2jxtrgzj]Will this "return" policy apply to games that require other platforms to operate?

Also what about "bundled" games?

Under 14 days/two hours of play, it's no questions asked. It applies to everything.

What is only one game in the bundle I want refunded?

Then you don't play it? The problem is, the price is set for the bundle, it's not itemized, so there's no way of determining how much you paid for that game. So it's all or nothing.

 

[Marcos2247]

I can honestly say that a generous return policy is going to increase revenue made off me.

On the App Store, I've purchased a bunch of apps that were shitty. $1.99 isn't even a big deal, but for some reason it stings wasting any kind of money on a shitty purchase. So each bad buy has made me more wary and I haven't purchased anything this year.

If I can return stuff on the other hand, oh boy I'm going to try out everything that sounds interesting. And if your game/app is good, I'm going to keep it. Because in spite of 99c mispurchases stinging, spending 50 bucks a month on good stuff is not a problem.

I understand that some games are only two hours long. I would be in favor of a shortened return policy for them, say 30 minutes, when the game makes it very clear it's only two hours.

And for the games who, as hinted in the article, need 30 hours to "break in", sorry, maybe you should be rethinking your storytelling. That's like making a TV show that's only going to get good in the second half of Season 2.

 

[dfjdejulio]

One big downside I see to this (as a customer): I think it's likely to push more and more developers to opt-in to Steam's DRM.

Otherwise, if you can get a refund on a DRM-free game, well, Steam can't really tell if you copied it to a floppy before getting your return, so...

 

[Grashnak]

dfjdejulio[/url]":25uh6j66]One big downside I see to this (as a customer): I think it's likely to push more and more developers to opt-in to Steam's DRM.

Otherwise, if you can get a refund on a DRM-free game, well, Steam can't really tell if you copied it to a floppy before getting your return, so...

I think the chance of anyone copying it to a floppy is reasonably low.

 

[curl | bash]

Marcos2247[/url]":b0tyuuuf]And for the games who, as hinted in the article, need 30 hours to "break in", sorry, maybe you should be rethinking your storytelling. That's like making a TV show that's only going to get good in the second half of Season 2.

There's a reason why the pilot episode of a new HBO/Showtime series always has nudity.

 

[nononsense]

I was shocked when I signed on to Steam and saw the new policy. I'm sure I'm not alone at having butted heads with Steam on a game that wouldn't play or didn't run well on my computer. It is ripe for abuse, however.

Short games that have no replay value will definitely dwindle as addictive app-like games become much more prevalent.

I do agree that this will make me try out more games, especially the alpha games that I wouldn't have touched before. It's these Alpha guys that should be worried. I'll now try DayZ knowing it's a demo.

 

[curl | bash]

dfjdejulio[/url]":3tqln9rb]One big downside I see to this (as a customer): I think it's likely to push more and more developers to opt-in to Steam's DRM.

Otherwise, if you can get a refund on a DRM-free game, well, Steam can't really tell if you copied it to a floppy before getting your return, so...

If you're gonna do that, you might as well just torrent it. Lots easier.

 

[Carewolf]

Kyle Orland[/url]":1slizrsg]

Ostracus[/url]":1slizrsg]Will this "return" policy apply to games that require other platforms to operate?

Also what about "bundled" games?

Under 14 days/two hours of play, it's no questions asked. It applies to everything.

That doesn't answer anything. I would assume they will have to add up time, because some things are not sold separately, so how could it be returned separately?

 

[ackmondual]

This'll hopefully be a reverse shift of what's been seen on the AppStore and Google Play where due to games going freemium, or some price that's unsustainable, they're encouraged to make a quickie app, not really support nor update it, and then move on to the next app in a "race to the bottom" environment.

Here, they're encouraged to make better quality games.

 

[PhoenixPath]

I don't suppose there's any "refund rate" vs. "game rating" available? I mean, not to sound too bars-on-the-window here, but maybe the reason some of these devs are noticing such a high refund rate is because, well, their game sucks.

 

[Shuffy]

If developers don't like this, they can bring back game demos, or do what PS+ does: allow people to download the game and try it for a while at no cost.

Stop trying to ask us for our money upfront. It's on the onus as a producer of some product to prove to me your product is worth buying.

 

[Deleted member 192806]

Shuffy[/url]":148vn270]If developers don't like this, they can bring back game demos, or do what PS+ does: allow people to download the game and try it for a while at no cost.

Stop trying to ask us for our money upfront.

That reminds me. The Amazon app store has a "test drive" feature for some of their apps.

 

[Fulgan]

Refund of games on steam really is a great new for me.

I really like paying for the content I use so, if a game is good, I will pay for it even if I could technically get a refund (these short indy games, for instance) and, like others, I will be much more likely to buy a game I'm not sure about, just to try it out.

I've been burned before: games that looked great on the presentation page but had glaring flaws visible as soon as I started it (uuugly graphic, mandatory registration/login to a 3rd party "social" network, required additional DRM/anti-cheat to be installed, wouldn't run without elevation, etc.) so I'm much more prudent these days. This could make the difference for me.

And in the end of the day: if you manage to give me 2 hours of fun for a 15$ game, that's a better return on my investment than a movie ticket so you are welcome to keep my money, even if, in the end, I don't continue playing.

 

[Akemi]

"It suddenly makes sense to change your early game progression in order to incentivize a two-hour binge," he wrote. "Refunds are going to hit harder on genres that can’t work these protections in, like intentionally difficult games, level-based puzzle games, or retro style arcade games. It may even be so bad that certain types of games suffer 'refund death' where they are simply unable to lock down players by motivating them past the two-hour mark."

If your title is so lacking in content that it can't garner 2 hours of interest from me (whether that's contiguous or broken up over a period of time within the 2 week window). Well, tough luck. I've invested more time than that into games at portals like Newgrounds. Why would I pay for something of lower quality than what's legitimately available for free?

 

[Shuffy]

Fulgan[/url]":3csm3v8i]Refund of games on steam really is a great new for me.

I really like paying for the content I use so, if a game is good, I will pay for it even if I could technically get a refund (these short indy games, for instance) and, like others, I will be much more likely to buy a game I'm not sure about, just to try it out.

I've been burned before: games that looked great on the presentation page but had glaring flaws visible as soon as I started it (uuugly graphic, mandatory registration/login to a 3rd party "social" network, required additional DRM/anti-cheat to be installed, wouldn't run without elevation, etc.) so I'm much more prudent these days. This could make the difference for me.

And in the end of the day: if you manage to give me 2 hours of fun for a 15$ game, that's a better return on my investment than a movie ticket so you are welcome to keep my money, even if, in the end, I don't continue playing.

Honestly, if the game was an hour long and still $15 and it was the best hour I've spent, they could keep my money. Like how most people viewed Portal (sort of, it was the elephant in the room of The Orange Box).

 

[OnThePlusSide]

ibcRandy[/url]":2kgxc558]As someone developing a game that is going to have a total playtime of under 2 hours I'm a little concerned about this, but my hope is that people will like the game enough to not request a refund after finishing it. I won't be charging much for it either (probably around $3 on steam), so likely people won't bother trying to game the system for three bucks.

I have heard from other indie devs that they've seen a ton more refund requests, but honestly I think once the hype dies down it will lead to more people willing to download a game and give it a shot as a trial knowing they can refund it if they don't like it.

Yesterday my son and I happened to be talking about this very thing. He said, "Hey, you know, Valve's new refund policy could get some developers to quit trying to sell two-hour long games for $15 and up." I'm sure either of us would be completely satisfied if a short game cost $3-$5 and it was really good and wouldn't be asking for a refund. However, if we paid $15 and played a really short game we'd no doubt feel ripped off and ask for a refund.

 

[Exist2Resist]

ibcRandy[/url]":3rgi47c7]As someone developing a game that is going to have a total playtime of under 2 hours I'm a little concerned about this, but my hope is that people will like the game enough to not request a refund after finishing it. I won't be charging much for it either (probably around $3 on steam), so likely people won't bother trying to game the system for three bucks.

I have heard from other indie devs that they've seen a ton more refund requests, but honestly I think once the hype dies down it will lead to more people willing to download a game and give it a shot as a trial knowing they can refund it if they don't like it.

If your game is under 2 hours then clearly it is not worth a penny. Instead of trying to extort money from consumers you should try design and create something that has replay value or has a longer story. Yo are what is wrong with the game industry today, you think you can make a quick buck and get away with it, well not anymore.

 

[enilc]

ken27238[/url]":ydb1yvov]

Developers express worry...

I'm sure the ones that use early access and never quite finish are shiting themselves.

I've kept my distance from early access games after getting burned once. If the refund policy applies to those as well, then I might start giving more of them a try...but it will definitely be a churn-and-burn looking for a "functioning-enough" game.

I'm also curious about re-purchases and save games. Not that anyone would look for such a way to game the system, but that seems like a pretty easy way to work through a game.

 

[TomXP411]

It may even be so bad that certain types of games suffer 'refund death' where they are simply unable to lock down players by motivating them past the two-hour mark."

If a game can't motivate me to play for more than 2 hours, why would I want to pay for it in the first place?

It seems that developers are really saying "We can't make money off of games that suck."

Good. That's how it's supposed to work.

 

[Lonyo]

Any chance of some comparative journalism as well?

Did you ask developers about GoG, which has had a return policy for a while, or EA which also has one and sells (some) third party titles?
It would be nice to have some comparison points outside Steam when discussing returns, and they do exist.

Further, the article talks about returns making it easy to "solve" technical issues by just giving a refund. That could be compared to GoG, which says if you want to return a game because it doesn't work, they will try and help you make it work, more than a return just because you don't like the game (https://www.gog.com/support/website_hel ... _guarantee)

 

[zepi]

Average movie at a theater is about 100-120 minutes or so and costs about 10 $€£ without a refund option. Yet a lot of movies still make gazillion of euros.

Maybe steam should just allow creators of the game to choose pricing models (rent to own etc) and if they allow refunds or not.

 

[OnThePlusSide]

Marcos2247[/url]":fv20ier6]I can honestly say that a generous return policy is going to increase revenue made off me.

On the App Store, I've purchased a bunch of apps that were shitty. $1.99 isn't even a big deal, but for some reason it stings wasting any kind of money on a shitty purchase. So each bad buy has made me more wary and I haven't purchased anything this year.

If I can return stuff on the other hand, oh boy I'm going to try out everything that sounds interesting. And if your game/app is good, I'm going to keep it. Because in spite of 99c mispurchases stinging, spending 50 bucks a month on good stuff is not a problem.

I understand that some games are only two hours long. I would be in favor of a shortened return policy for them, say 30 minutes, when the game makes it very clear it's only two hours.

And for the games who, as hinted in the article, need 30 hours to "break in", sorry, maybe you should be rethinking your storytelling. That's like making a TV show that's only going to get good in the second half of Season 2.

I can't up-vote your comment as many times as it deserves because you've hit all the nails flatly on their heads.

 

[TomXP411]

enilc[/url]":40yssf31]

ken27238[/url]":40yssf31]

Developers express worry...

I'm sure the ones that use early access and never quite finish are shiting themselves.

I've kept my distance from early access games after getting burned once. If the refund policy applies to those as well, then I might start giving more of them a try...but it will definitely be a churn-and-burn looking for a "functioning-enough" game.

I'm also curious about re-purchases and save games. Not that anyone would look for such a way to game the system, but that seems like a pretty easy way to work through a game.

It seems to me that re-purchases should not reset the 2-hour or 2-week window. If you re-purchase a game, the 2-weeks should still apply - from the date you first purchased the game.

The only exception to that should be large updates that either fix massive problems or could cause massive problems. In those circumstances, I could see a reset being a good idea.